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View Full Version : 9 Bal break shot: Foul or not foul?



06-28-2002, 01:55 PM
In nine ball, when you break and miscue the cueball left the head spot line amd didn't hit any balls in the rack, is this considered foul or not?

06-28-2002, 02:01 PM
follow-up question:

Btw, my buddy break and the CB left the head spot line then he grabs the CB and told me it's good and that he can still break again cuz he didn't touch the balls in rack.

I told him it's a foul cuz the CB left the head spot and that he touched the CB with his hand cuz he wanted to break again. IMO, once your cue hits the CB and left the head spot line then it's a foul but I wanted to make sure that way next time he argues i know what to tell him.

Please help, I need to know what is the right decision for this.

Thanks!

Scott Lee
06-28-2002, 02:08 PM
The answer is YES, it is a foul. As soon as the tip touched the CB, the shot was deemed to be commenced. It doesn't matter if it moved 2", 6", or 6'...or NOT AT ALL!
If the tip touched the CB, his turn to break is over, and you have ball in hand.

Scott Lee

PoolFan
06-28-2002, 02:11 PM
BCA Rules (Old version so the numbering maybe wrong, but the rule has changed):

3.7 Cue Ball on Opening Break states the game has commenced when the cue ball is hit by a cue tip and crosses the head string. So if the cue ball does not contact the rack, it's a foul.

3.8 Deflecting the Cue Ball on the Games Opening Break states that if you grab, stop or deflect the cue ball after it has past the headstring, it's a foul.

Sid_Vicious
06-28-2002, 02:39 PM
You gotta clarify BIH Scott. TX Express and conventional BCA rules differ, one sayd you can place the CB anywhere on the table and shoot, and the other states you have to shoot from behind the line...sid

Scott Lee
06-28-2002, 03:37 PM
sid...True, but regardless, it IS still a foul, resulting in ball-in-hand, whether it is anywhere, or behind the line.

Scott Lee

WaltVA
06-28-2002, 04:21 PM
BCA and Texas Express rules say the game starts when the cue tip hits the cue ball and it crosses the headstring.

HOWEVER, APA rules state "the rack must be struck before a foul can occur." You CAN grab the CB on a miscue before it hits the rack and re-break with no penalty. Don't try it anywhere but in a APA league game, though! LOL

Walt in VA

Sid_Vicious
06-28-2002, 04:54 PM
No arguing that, just that some people would have possibly put the CB anywhere and fouled themselves. In one BIH rule(which lets you use the entire table) AND with a partial spread of the pack, you could "tink" the one up close and go for 1-of-3 fouls to get the 3-foul rule win. In the other case where you are behind the line, that ain't the case..sid

06-28-2002, 05:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: WaltVA:</font><hr> BCA and Texas Express rules say the game starts when the cue tip hits the cue ball and it crosses the headstring.

Walt in VA
<hr></blockquote>

sorry, the "and crosses the head string" language has been removed from all games in bca. 8-ball was the last to go in an "interpretation" some months ago. now, the game has begun when the tip contacts the cue ball "in a forward stroking motion". it no longer needs to cross the headstring. see: general rules bca 3.8 (2002)

dan

heater451
06-28-2002, 05:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> The answer is YES, it is a foul. As soon as the tip touched the CB, the shot was deemed to be commenced. It doesn't matter if it moved 2", 6", or 6'...or NOT AT ALL!
If the tip touched the CB, his turn to break is over, and you have ball in hand.

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>Is there a possible conflict with it being a loss of turn, as opposed to a foul, considering there are also "what constitutes a legal break" rule(s)?

~~too lazy to research the rules. . . .

Tom_In_Cincy
06-28-2002, 05:42 PM
This is not related to the "start of the game" but with BIH:

I know this may be on the 'nit picky' side of this thread, but the "Ball in hand" behind the headstring rule (BCA and WPBA rule #3.10) clearly states that you have to drive the cue ball over the headstring to start the inning..

06-28-2002, 05:51 PM
It is a foul. Even though the headstring language has been removed, it is not a legal break shot if the cue ball doesn't contact the one-ball and drive at least four balls to the rails.

LEGAL BREAK SHOT. The rules governing the opening break shot .....breaker must strike the 1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.....(if) the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

In addition, it states further down that any contact by the cue tip to cue ball that doesn't result in contact with the lowest-numbered ball and subsequently making a rail is a foul also, with cue ball in hand.

06-28-2002, 06:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> This is not related to the "start of the game" but with BIH:

I know this may be on the 'nit picky' side of this thread, but the "Ball in hand" behind the headstring rule (BCA and WPBA rule #3.10) clearly states that you have to drive the cue ball over the headstring to start the inning..
<hr></blockquote>

you may recall that they changed 5.14 (8-ball) to match 3.8 last december in not requiring it to cross the line. i can't think of a logical situation where 3.10 would still need that distinction. you're right, the difference still exists in the new book between opening break and a kitchen foul shot. just looks like a screw-up to me.

dan...as we used to say whewn i worked for the government, "these are our rules: subject to change without notice or reason."

dan

Scott Lee
06-28-2002, 08:47 PM
Joey...Rule 5.4 specifically states that if the requirements of the break are not met, then it is a foul, and the opponent takes ball in hand anywhere on the table.

Scott ~ had the rulebook handy!

WaltVA
06-28-2002, 10:48 PM
dan - Thanks for the correction. Knew I should have checked the BCA website before I posted something from a memory afflicted with CRS syndrome.

Walt in VA

06-28-2002, 11:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: WaltVA:</font><hr> dan - Thanks for the correction. Knew I should have checked the BCA website before I posted something from a memory afflicted with CRS syndrome.

Walt in VA <hr></blockquote>

it's getting so bad with bca that you don't just need a book. you need this years book. they cannot make "changes to the rules and maintain their maybe-pre-olympics status. they do, however keep making new "interpretations". then they move all the rest of the rules, changing the numbers, to make room for that new rul...'er, interpretation. they wouldn't do that just to make sure that fools like me have to keep getting new books, do you? i've got as many paper-cutters and pins as i need (they come with the book and some other junk with your yearly bca membership.)

dan

jjinfla
06-29-2002, 05:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: houstondan:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: WaltVA:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;
Walt in VA
&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

sorry, the "and crosses the head string" language has been removed from all games in bca. 8-ball was the last to go in an "interpretation" some months ago. now, the game has begun when the tip contacts the cue ball "in a forward stroking motion". it no longer needs to cross the headstring. see: general rules bca 3.8 (2002)

dan <hr></blockquote>

My version of BCA rule 3.8 (2002) does not mention "in a forward manner". It just says "the game is considered to have commenced once the cue ball has been struck by the cue tip". But then rule 3.9 gives the option to the opponent of taking ball in hand behind headstring or giving the breaker BIH behind headstring. That's 8-ball. 9-ball the opponent gets BIH anywhere on table. But convention justs lets the breaker break again with no penalty. I have never seen this rule called. I imagine it mainly applies to Pro and near pro type of tournaments. Everyone I know just tells the breaker to break again. Jake

Tom_In_Cincy
06-29-2002, 09:35 AM
HDJ,
If there is a screw up.. its with the BCA..
There is suppose to be a 5 year freeze on rule changes. The World Pool and Billards Association is the ruling body for reference. The BCA must follow the WPBA rules, for these 5 years for qualifications to be considered for the Olympics.

John Lewis of the BCA has been contacted about 'typos' in the last 4 years of the BCA rule book. He has stated that they will be corrected.

The BIH in the kitchen rule (not the start of the game) is one of the mistakes the BCA had made in leaving out the "ball must pass over the headstring" sentence. This was suppose to be corrected (matching the WPBA rules) in the 2002 rule book.

Are you saying the 2002 rule book doesn't have the "cue ball must pass the headstring" in the 3.10 rule?

06-29-2002, 11:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tom_In_Cincy:</font><hr> HDJ,
If there is a screw up.. its with the BCA..
There is suppose to be a 5 year freeze on rule changes. The World Pool and Billards Association is the ruling body for reference. The BCA must follow the WPBA rules, for these 5 years for qualifications to be considered for the Olympics.

John Lewis of the BCA has been contacted about 'typos' in the last 4 years of the BCA rule book. He has stated that they will be corrected.

The BIH in the kitchen rule (not the start of the game) is one of the mistakes the BCA had made in leaving out the "ball must pass over the headstring" sentence. This was suppose to be corrected (matching the WPBA rules) in the 2002 rule book.

Are you saying the 2002 rule book doesn't have the "cue ball must pass the headstring" in the 3.10 rule? <hr></blockquote>

i'm not being clear. i am saying that the screw-up is by the bca, not you and yes, they did leave the "headstring" reference in 3.10 as you pointed out. they should have deleted it there as they did everywhere else.

dan