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View Full Version : How to get position on eight ball



Drop1
01-02-2006, 12:42 PM
I have to sink the 11,and come back for the eight. My draw will never pull the cue ball back far enough. What play would you suggest?START(
%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4

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UWPoolGod
01-02-2006, 01:21 PM
I would probably cheat the pocket if that is a possibility and use high left english to spin the cueball back to the bottom of the table. Have to put a hard smooth stroke on it. The throw would be able to spin the object ball in and the english would make the cueball head back to the right of the 8ball after contacting the upper rail. Just depends on the available angle.

Jal
01-02-2006, 03:10 PM
If I decided against trying to leave the cueball behind the 11, I'd probably go with this:

START(
%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pn2Y4%UP2Z9%Vl9Y6%WG2D9%XD1J6%Ye0W1%Z H3D2%eC2`7
%_D8L6%`H9S3%aK1Y6%bL1Z5%cM8Z6%dN4Z6
)END

Who knows what horrors would actually take place, but I might get lucky. I think I'd have a pretty decent chance of making the 11. As far as the cueball goes, I would bid it a fond farewell and hope to meet it again soon.

Jim

Rod
01-02-2006, 10:26 PM
Why do you have to make the 11? Why not play safe? Since you don't know a way, or even if you did, your chances aren't very good. If you miss and get position, it'll be for your opponent.

Just hit rail first and bump it out to pos B. Let your opponent have the long thin cut. He/She won't like it and there isn't a bank. They miss and sell out to you!

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That said, top only with the right speed might be your best option.
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)END
You could hit rail first as well, it's a good shot depending how the balls lay and always an option in situations like this when you get in trouble. I'm not saying it would be my first choice here, just an option.

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%]W6[4%^r0Y0%eC1`9%_D1V2%`J5Z1%aV9[3
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Even if you could draw reasonably well it's still no guarantee you'd get position. Got to keep those options open.

Rod

recoveryjones
01-03-2006, 02:42 AM
I like Rod's saftey option the best, due to the location of the 8 ball.This is a high percentage saftey that leaves a low percentage shot for the guy shooting the 8.

If the opponent makes that razor thin ( especially if you leave the cue ball on the rail)cut on the 8 or a low percentage bank he will have accomplished a very,very tough shot. I he misses,(as mentioned) he will sell out.

The cue ball and the object ball appear to be a good 7 feet apart.This makes a long inside english/no angle shot(deflection)and an off the railer even tougher.Depending on the pool hall, these shots have a tendency to kick out of the pocket, if not stroked purely.Furthermore the object ball is a diamond and 1/4 away from the pocket making it no duck.If the object ball were say a half diamond away from the pocket, this of course makes the off the railer more appealing.Chances are shape on the 8 will be obtained,however, the pot may rattle the pocket.If this happens, you will have sold out the 8.

Remember this is a do or die section of the game and there are no tommorows.Anytime you can negiotiate something high percentage for you and leave your opponent something low percentage, I say play the odds that are in your favour.You'll lose the odd game ,however, win the majority.
RJ

Leviathan
01-03-2006, 06:22 AM
You could try leaving the 11 close to the cushion near the center of the foot rail and bringing the cb back to the area of the headspot.--AS

Cornerman
01-03-2006, 08:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> I have to sink the 11,and come back for the eight. My draw will never pull the cue ball back far enough. What play would you suggest? START(
%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4

)END <hr /></blockquote>If your draw won't pull the cue ball far enough back, then I'd suggest to cinch the 11-ball, maybe draw it back just a little or not at all, and cut the 8-ball thinly.

The, go to the pull hall and practice the deep draw shot.

Fred

Qtec
01-03-2006, 09:20 AM
If you can draw the QB, its all over. If you cant , this might be an option. A touch of LE might be needed to miss the kiss, otherwise just top. START(
%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4%QC6O6%Rg4L9%WE0R3%XJ4[1%[f8N6%\D8W4%]K8[1
%^o9Y3%_D0X0%`G2Y2%aH8Y8
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Q

Jal
01-03-2006, 02:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> You could try leaving the 11 close to the cushion near the center of the foot rail and bringing the cb back to the area of the headspot.--AS <hr /></blockquote>I'm not sure I understand why you want to leave the cueball around the headspot. Qtec also suggested this. The bank on the eight is not too hard from there, and even if your opponent misses, he/she can leave the cueball at the head end somewhere, leaving you a much harder bank or cut?

As far as drawing it back, where I play the gold crown pockets will reject the 11-ball when shot at the required speed to draw it back, unless hit absolutely perfect, and then I'm not too sure. Also you might just draw it back into the pocket if you can draw that well (which I can't).

Jim

Sid_Vicious
01-03-2006, 02:43 PM
Play this safe, object is to hold the 11 near the hole as a blocker, and put the CB where the opponent would need to make a back cut to get to an open corner. Even making the eleven ain't bad cuz it the guy makes the bank then you were out-manned being you did not have an adequate draw for some shape on the 8(wouldn't need that much.) If you absouletly must be aggressive, then the rail first shot is the way to go. The ideal point of aim forces you to come short into the long rail and high-follow/outside english. It'd be real tricky, but workable. Cinching the 11 and going for the thin cut makes more sense though...sid~~~would shoot a safe and let the opponent beat me with the long bank if he could

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%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4%QC6O6%WC8L4%XJ3Z0%]K3Z2%^o9Y3%eC7a4%_E5Z8
%`G3Z0%aH8Y8%bH0H2%cD9J4%dC5K8
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Leviathan
01-03-2006, 03:56 PM
Hi, Jim. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think Qtec suggests leaving the cb near the center of the foot rail and sending the ob to the area of the headspot. Also, the opponent would have to pocket the 11 before he or she could pocket the 8. I think Qtec's suggestion is reasonable, but I'd rather play a safety that leaves the 8 and 11 at opposite ends of the table--seems to me that this puts more pressure on the opponent. If his or her return safety isn't just right, I may be in position to make both balls easily.--AS

ALLENJK
01-03-2006, 04:13 PM
I'm with cornerman on this one. If you can shoot just a stop shot you still have a decent shot at the 8.

Bob_Jewett
01-03-2006, 04:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ALLENJK:</font><hr> I'm with cornerman on this one. If you can shoot just a stop shot you still have a decent shot at the 8. <hr /></blockquote>
But he also has to follow Fred's other advice, which is to practice the draw shot, and I think the best way is with a progressive drill.

ALLENJK
01-03-2006, 04:36 PM
Totally agree. Straight draw shots the length of the table is one of my favorite warmups.

heater451
01-03-2006, 05:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr> . . .You could hit rail first as well, it's a good shot depending how the balls lay and always an option in situations like this when you get in trouble. I'm not saying it would be my first choice here, just an option.

START(
%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4%RI8W9%Uk4V3%VR1C9%WE2Z9%XI0Z5%Y Q2D3%ZC4U6
%]W6[4%^r0Y0%eC1`9%_D1V2%`J5Z1%aV9[3
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Even if you could draw reasonably well it's still no guarantee you'd get position. Got to keep those options open.

Rod <hr /></blockquote>I just wanted to add, that if you were to use the "mirror" system to shoot the rail-first, you would aim like this:

START(%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4%QI9X3%RJ7Z6%SI7\8%Uc4S5%V P4C8%WL1Z2%XX3[2
%YO4D3%ZC9S1%[D4T4%\J3X9%]K8\5%^r0Y0%eA5a8%_J7[7%`J5[3%aJ5Z2)END

The WEI makes it look like the side pocket is a danger, but I doubt it would be in reality. Note, the distances AB and BC are the same--and you aim directly at C.

I put some left spin on the cue ball too, although you can do it without spin--or, maybe use some smooth--not hard--top.



===============================

Jal
01-03-2006, 11:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Hi, Jim. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think Qtec suggests leaving the cb near the center of the foot rail and sending the ob to the area of the headspot.<hr /></blockquote>Yes, thanks Leviathan, you're definitely right. Sorry Qtec.<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr>Also, the opponent would have to pocket the 11 before he or she could pocket the 8. I think Qtec's suggestion is reasonable, but I'd rather play a safety that leaves the 8 and 11 at opposite ends of the table--seems to me that this puts more pressure on the opponent. If his or her return safety isn't just right, I may be in position to make both balls easily.--AS <hr /></blockquote>I guess you must play nineball almost exclusively. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Jim

Jal
01-03-2006, 11:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr>...I just wanted to add, that if you were to use the "mirror" system to shoot the rail-first, you would aim like this:

START(%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4%QI9X3%RJ7Z6%SI7\8%Uc4S5%V P4C8%WL1Z2%XX3[2
%YO4D3%ZC9S1%[D4T4%\J3X9%]K8\5%^r0Y0%eA5a8%_J7[7%`J5[3%aJ5Z2)END<hr /></blockquote>In my opinion, Heater, the aim point C should be more like this:

START(
%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pn2Y4%Qc6_1%SI1[1%UL0[9%Vl9Y6%WM1E0%XD3P3%Yh2U1
%ZN7D6%eC1`8%_E1Q9%`I1U6%aK1Y6%bL1Z5%cM8Z6%dO3Z8
)END

At least I think that this is the case if your spin is such that you expect the cueball to reflect off the cushion at about the incoming angle. The reflection point for mirror systems is 1/2 ball away from the cushion toward the center of the table. Since the 11 is sitting about a half-ball from the cushion itself, this places the center of the mirror image 11-ball near the nose of the cushion. At least that's how I see it?

Jim

Bob_Jewett
01-04-2006, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> ... Since the 11 is sitting about a half-ball from the cushion itself, this places the center of the mirror image 11-ball near the nose of the cushion. At least that's how I see it?
... <hr /></blockquote>
There are two corrections to this. The first is that you should be aiming at the ghost ball and not the 11. If you actually aim at the (reflected) 11, and hit it full coming off the rail, you are guaranteed to drive the 11 to the short rail.

Secondly, the "bounce" for a shallow-angle rolling shot is only about 70% of the incoming angle. That is, the ball tends to go more parallel to the cushion than the mirror system says. How much of the 30% discount applies depends on the spin and speed on the cue ball, of course.

Rod
01-04-2006, 10:19 AM
I'd use the ghost ball as well but I really don't like this shot because of the shallow angle. It requires more force than it appears because your creating little angle especially allowing for the spin as you mentioned.

We must have some recent champions on here if their going to stop the c/b there and take the long thin cut especially near on on the rail as I suggested. At the posters ability its not a good option and would be for very few and make it consistantly.

Q's option might be better choice but either way it sure isn't a give away on a 9 footer.

Rod

Jal
01-04-2006, 01:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> ... Since the 11 is sitting about a half-ball from the cushion itself, this places the center of the mirror image 11-ball near the nose of the cushion. At least that's how I see it?
... <hr /></blockquote>
There are two corrections to this. The first is that you should be aiming at the ghost ball and not the 11. If you actually aim at the (reflected) 11, and hit it full coming off the rail, you are guaranteed to drive the 11 to the short rail....<hr /></blockquote>Thanks Bob. I did think of it long after I had posted, naturally, and was going to correct it. (That's my story, anyway.)

So then the shot would look more like this (the 1-ball being the ghost ball)?

START(
%AK2[7%Hr6L5%II9[7%KI8Z3%Pn2Y4%Qc6_1%UM6[8%Vl9Y6%eC1`8%bL1Z6
%cN2Z5%dV2Z7
)END

This is more in line with what Heater and Rod indicated as to where to strike the long rail. Hitting that high off of it just doesn't look right to me, but that's what the geometry seems to dictate. If so, as Rod said, there's not much angle to work with as far as moving the cueball around the table.

Jim

heater451
01-04-2006, 04:38 PM
I copied the code I posted, and pasted it back into the table. The centerpoint of "B" tweaked to the rail (and, actually, to the right a bit), when I re-viewed it, so I would agree that your diagram looks better--although I realize that Bob_Jewett has added his corrections as well.

I also thought the original, black arrow of the cue ball path was too close to the CB itself, where it hits the cushion, but I was hoping that my addressing of the difference in the WEI table and a real one would cover it. If someone sets this shot up and tries it a few times, they will figure it out--I only intended the WEI to give the idea.

Oh, and I forgot the disclaimer: "NOT TO SCALE" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif



===================================

Qtec
01-04-2006, 06:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Leviathan:</font><hr> Hi, Jim. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I think Qtec suggests leaving the cb near the center of the foot rail and sending the ob to the area of the headspot. Also, the opponent would have to pocket the 11 before he or she could pocket the 8. I think Qtec's suggestion is reasonable, but I'd rather play a safety that leaves the 8 and 11 at opposite ends of the table--seems to me that this puts more pressure on the opponent. If his or her return safety isn't just right, I may be in position to make both balls easily.--AS <hr /></blockquote>

Yep, thats what I meant.

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%]K8[1%^o9Y3%_D0X0%`G2Y2%aH8Y8
)END

wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

If I can get the QB to A and the OB to B, maybe I can snooker him on the 8. If the OB drifts to C, maybe I can block the long bank.
Q

Sid_Vicious
01-04-2006, 07:18 PM
Ok we're wearing out this simple situation. Just slow roll it like this, calling safe and even if the shot fails to fall in, the guy has a pinned-to-short rail CB for his attempt. If the 11 falls, so what, if it doesn't you have a key ball from hell. I'd give it to anyone who could long rail that bank off of the rail and at that angle ;-)..sid~~~it ain't that hard

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Leviathan
01-05-2006, 05:13 AM
Qtec:

I've just shot about a dozen of the safeties I suggested. I botched the shot three times--so it isn't really easy enough for a player at my level (C to C-).

When I hit the ob softly enough to leave it at the center of the foot rail, this was the result:

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%KD1O8%Pn4J3%Q\1_1%eB9a4

)END

This isn't what I predicted, but I think it's satisfactory. All things considered, though, I guess I'd do better to play the safety you suggest--it looks easy enough.

AS

Isshi
01-05-2006, 07:01 AM
Quote Qtec:

Yep, thats what I meant.

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%]K8[1%^o9Y3%_D0X0%`G2Y2%aH8Y8
)END

wei

If I can get the QB to A and the OB to B, maybe I can snooker him on the 8. If the OB drifts to C, maybe I can block the long bank.
Q

Qtec, are you hitting ball first or rail first on that shot?

From my perspective, hitting ball first will send the 11 down to
mid-table off the end rail, and the CB goes off the side rail to
rest around the end rail, as I think you're describing.

Going rail first looks to me to do different things.

Best regards, Isshi.

Qtec
01-05-2006, 07:23 AM
Ball first. Hit at pos D.

START(
%AK0Z8%Hr6L5%KI8Z3%Pm9Y4%QC6O6%Rg4L9%Sc6J8%TK8X9%W E0R3%XJ4[1
%[f8N6%\D8W4%]K8[1%^o9Y3%_D0X0%`G2Y2%aH8Y8
)END
The LE will widen the angle of the OB off the bottom rail.
Q

Cornerman
01-05-2006, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote ALLENJK:</font><hr> I'm with cornerman on this one. If you can shoot just a stop shot you still have a decent shot at the 8. <hr /></blockquote>
But he also has to follow Fred's other advice, which is to practice the draw shot, and I think the best way is with a progressive drill. <hr /></blockquote>Since I completely butchered the english language on my post, nobody could understand what I was advising.

Fred &lt;~~~ pull hall?

Leviathan
01-06-2006, 05:01 AM
"I'm not sure I understand why you want to leave the cueball around the headspot..."

You're right of course, Jim. What can I say? My brains are old and tired!--AS