PDA

View Full Version : Why Republicans Win



nAz
01-05-2006, 06:45 PM
By David Johnson

Source: Seeing The Forest.

A typical generic blog post written by a Progressive in the last several months would read something like this: "Everyone can sum up the Republican core beliefs in a sentence or two, while Progressives need to search for a candidate who can articulate core Progressive values." Some bloggers might also refer to George Lakoff's "framing" work as a solution to the problem. Not being able to explain your product concept in a sentence is a classic marketing problem, and what these posts show is a budding awareness that Republicans have been outmarketing Democrats. Think about this - if you are in a "red state" area you are told a hundred different ways every day why business is good and government is bad and why unregulated free markets work better than democracy. But you are never told the other side of the story.

The Republicans win because the modern Right has developed around the core idea of persuading people to support their ideology, which then leads to support for their issues and candidates. In other words: marketing. The Right developed this persuasion capability in reaction to the dominance of the existing "liberal establishment." Because of this, most of their organizations are designed as advocacy and communications organizations, with the mission of reaching the general public and explaining what right-wing ideas are and why they are better for people. Today's Progressives, on the other hand, think there already is a public consensus supporting their ideals and values, so they have not developed a culture that is oriented around persuading people, and their organizations are not designed at their core to persuade the public to support them.

For example, everyone used to think that it is moral to help the poor or protect the environment, so there are organizations that are designed to do that. Then along comes the right, funding organizations designed to convince people it is wrong to do these things. The result today is that on one side you have organizations trying to help the poor, protect the environment, etc. On the other you have organizations telling people what those organizations are doing is wrong. But now you have no one explaining to people that it is GOOD to help the poor and protect the environment so over time support for helping the poor obviously will erode and eventually the organizations that help the poor will be in trouble and have little public support.

So you can see how things got to be the way they are. Democrats understand themselves as a political party, not as a movement. The party grew out of a time when people already understood why they were Democrats or not, so there was no need for organizations that talked to the general public about why it is good to be a Democrat. Instead the party naturally focused on elections. And it is still that way. Democrats look for the "right candidates" to appeal to voters. The candidate is expected to "voice" the issues, and develop messaging that works, and is expected to do it after putting together a campaign team, which happens during and after the primaries. The Democrats use the election cycle as a time to come up with specific "issues" and "messages" and educate the voters. Then the campaign is supposed to reach the voters and educate them about the candidate and the issues... This is the old way of understanding politics. The problem is that times have changed — they have been changed by the rise of "movement conservatism."

On the Right, they developed their movement in response to the existing liberal consensus, which means that their movement developed based on the idea of changing people's minds away from those liberal ideas and values. So the result is that today the Right is structured around persuasion, while the Democrats are not. And their organizations have spent decades studying how best to persuade people.

For Republicans, functions like message and issue development are handled by the multitude of "conservative movement" organizations, not the Republican Party or its candidates. A Republican candidates' job is to voice the messages of the Right but not to develop the messages, like a Democratic candidate is expected to do. The job of Republican campaigns is to take advantage of the issues that their constituency has already been exposed to, not to define the issues from scratch like Democrat candidates have to do. And the Party's job is to harvest the voters at election time.

Organizations like the Heritage Foundation comprise the persuasion machine of the Right. Republican candidates get their talking points from these organizations. They get their issues - tort reform, Social Security privatization, NCLB Act, etc. - from these organizations. The organizations spend years educating the public about the particulars — "lawsuit abuse", woman gets a million for spilling hot coffee in a moving car, environmentalism costs jobs, Social Security is going broke, etc. They do the core research to learn how to reach the public, what words to use, etc. A focus group might show that some voters will change their minds if they think Democrats are "rich elites who drink lattes" and a week later every single columnist, talking head, talk show host, etc. is saying that Democrats are rich elitists who drink lattes. It is not about their candidates — I mean, look who they run! Compare Bush the person or the candidate to Gore or Kerry, and then try to tell me it is about the candidates!

The Party is not the SOUL (ideology) of the Right. It is the other way around: the Right and their organizations are the soul of the Party. And what is the Right, in this context, at this time? Understanding this points us to a path out of this.

The Right as I use it is the "conservative movement" — a few hundred well-funded ($300 million per year that is NOT counted as "election spending") and centrally coordinated (Grover Norquist, Philanthropy Roundtable, etc.) advocacy organizations, all preaching right-wing "free-market" ideology. They preach the ideology. They persuade people. THEY define the issues and educate the public. Not the Party, not the candidates, not the campaigns.

The way out of this is to understand that we need to EDUCATE AND PERSUADE THE GENERAL PUBLIC about the fact that core Progressive ideas and values are good for them. What we are instead doing now is spending a LOT of money on narrow-interest environmental and other kinds of interest organizations that largely talk to the converted. Environmentalists have to combine forces with civil justice advocates, consumer litigation advocates, peace activists, etc. and all together go after the Right AS ONE.

We need to change what our existing organizations see as their core mission. They need to understand that the public consensus they thought they have is not there anymore. They need to understand that to survive a good part of their effort has to be toward persuading the public that the core progressive values of democracy and community are good, and benefit them, and only then can they also do the work that before now they thought was their core mission, be it environmentalism, helping the poor, or whatever else they do.

And, more important, we all need to understand that new organizations have to be started, with their entire mission being to educate and persuade the general public that core progressive values of democracy and community, and all the things that means, are better for them than right-wing ideology.

See Don't Blame the Democrats.

Drop1
01-05-2006, 07:03 PM
So the Democrats need to define themselves,and then reject the defination, and go for lowest denominator. "If the glove don't fit you gotta aquit" I like it,but I just can't tell a Democrat /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif from a Republican.

nAz
01-05-2006, 07:09 PM
yeah they start acting the same when they get in office and the monies come their way /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

wolfdancer
01-05-2006, 07:28 PM
nAz, an interesting article....as I see it, and this is a generalization, the Republican Party promotes itself as the party, that preserves ind wealth by holding the line against the massive wefare programs endorsed by the Democratic Party, and by reducing taxes, and government. to that extent, SS, medicare, are now considered welfare programs.
The realism is that while reducing "welfare" and taxes, we are piling up massive debts that will eventually have dire consequences for this country....and with the war, and Iraq rebuilding committment.....the debts just keep piling up...all this while the focus is kept on SS...which was self supporting, until both parties raided it.
Bush's financial ignorance was apparent when he proposed a self directed market retirement investment program to replace ss.
the market functions like poker, each hand or transaction has both winners and losers, winning and losing (market corrections) streaks.
I can't see the USA ever recovering from this mess, and think a financial crisis,banks, esp mortgage banks going under, closing, massive unemployment,etc....is in the cards.
It doesn't matter which party wins in the near future....
"Jacta alea est"

wolfdancer
01-05-2006, 07:30 PM
"I just can't tell a Democrat from a Republican."

It's easy....the Democrat will remove the glove before he shakes your hand

Drop1
01-05-2006, 09:26 PM
Love it.I suppose the Republicans put on a condom.[Smegmata]

nAz
01-05-2006, 09:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
The realism is that while reducing "welfare" and taxes, we are piling up massive debts that will eventually have dire consequences for this country....and with the war, and Iraq rebuilding committment.....the debts just keep piling up
"Jacta alea est" <hr /></blockquote>

I kNOW I kNOW I kNOW!!! but why can't others see this or maybe they can but just want to turn a blind eye to it?


"It doesn't matter which party wins in the near future...."

yes it does because who ever is in will get all the blame... and mean while the rich will stay rich.


THink I'll go and invest in Tungsten... the market is almost right for it... and i want to be filty rich /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Drop1
01-05-2006, 10:03 PM
I looked all over the map,and couldn't find a country called Tungsten. I wanna be rich too.

pooltchr
01-06-2006, 05:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> ... and mean while the rich will stay rich.


<hr /></blockquote>

And just what is the problem with this? Someone works hard, builds a successful business, makes money, grows the business, gives people jobs. That's what makes the economy grow. I really don't understand why the "rich" seem to be the target of so much criticism. Where is the motivation to work hard and be productive if it is not the ability to be rewarded for your efforts? Would the country be better off if Bill Gates lost everything, Microsoft went under, and all their employees were competing for jobs at McDonalds?
Oh yeah, He would no longer be able to give so much to charity as he does now. Do a little research as to just how much of his money the man GIVES AWAY every year to charity.
Steve

eg8r
01-06-2006, 06:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> The realism is that while reducing "welfare" and taxes, we are piling up massive debts that will eventually have dire consequences for this country <blockquote><font class="small">Quote naz:</font><hr> I kNOW I kNOW I kNOW!!! but why can't others see this or maybe they can but just want to turn a blind eye to it? <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> No one is turning a blind eye to this, the problem is that there are at least three different ways to look at it: <ul type="square"> Dems Way - Tax Tax Tax. Be relentless and take all you can. Then give it away to those who for the most part cannot support themselves Reps Way - Reduce spending, reduce size of government, reduce taxes. Quit giving a decent living to those who have no desire to go out and get a job themselves. The people from NO living in hotels right now are good examples. BK's in NO are offering a 6k bonus and $13/hr to flip burgers and they can't get any takers. W's Way - Reduce taxes, Increase size of government, increase spending. He is is moving to the center faster than the Dems care to admit. This guy has a great idea to privatize retirement, and reduce taxes. The problem is that he is WAY to liberal with the checkbook. [/list]

No one is turning a blind eye, there are just different ways to look at the situation. The idea to continue taxing does not make sense, just like increasing the size of government and spending does not make any sense.

eg8r

moblsv
01-06-2006, 07:49 AM
Dems way - Increase education, business and economic growth for all internally. Incourage development of talent, engineering, innovative technologies and business development within the US. Outsourcing, insourcing, streamlining of supply chains all help lower prices to help all and give poor hope and give countries around the world common economic interests to keep peace. Better internal education keeps the high paying jobs in the US, more people moving to highter paying jobs means smaller pool of uneducated to fill labor jobs and therefore higher pay and more incentive for less educated lines of labor (unless we just open the borders to take these jobs). Make Welfare available for those who need it as a safety net but fix the system help people who will help themselves not just give them money becasue they're poor (Clinton's welfare reform act). Make business be responsible to stakeholders, not just shareholders, that means the air, water, wildlife, employees, community, not just shareholders. IOW, study problems, find solutions

Reps way - Give money to big business to grow, attack Iraq, try to kill social security, try to kill public education, try to put religion in govt and education, try to control womens rights, try to change the constitution to discriminate against those they don't agree with, ignore and discredit science that doesn't fit policy, create huge media and think tanks solely to discredit people and win elections, hope things work out.

Gayle in MD
01-06-2006, 07:59 AM
As long as the neocons continue to allow corporate America to send our jobs overseas, rape the land, increase polution and make more and more people ill and dying of cancer, increase the numbers who can't afford health insurance, and dump thier employees, robing them of their pensions, continue with tax laws which favor the wealthy, juryrig the numbers on the economy, increase the deficit, and continue with the pork barrell spending, and the trade deficit debt, and handle foreign threats with missles and wars against the wrong countries, things will cntinue on a path of collapse, but, the neocons will be happy, as long as boys can't kiss with confidence, and women who do not want to bring children they can't feed into the world, will be forced to do so, or go to jail, and the guns keep firing away! King George has certainly made a mess. The future sucks for our children and grand children, and they owe it all to the right, and King George. The republicans are everything, and more, that they have always accused the Democrats of being.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
01-06-2006, 08:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
As long as the neocons continue to allow corporate America to send our jobs overseas, rape the land, increase polution and make more and more people ill and dying of cancer, increase the numbers who can't afford health insurance <hr /></blockquote> Blah blah blah. As long as the Dems are listening to this type of crap and moving forward they will continue to lose. It is time for the Dems to re-evaluate their approach. People like Murtha, Pelosi, etc are the best things to ever happen to the Reps. They put their foot in their mouth every time the trap opens. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif It is time to quit this whining about how elections have been stolen (even though they were proven to be won fairly), quit attacking the otherside (it is obvious you are horribly unsuccessful) and just stick to your own platform. For once state what it is you are going to do and how you are going to do it. Be somewhat specific so the voting public has something to grasp onto, align themselves with. I guess I just want to help the Dems because they need to win every once in a while.

Come on, I say, lets all vote for the Dems next time. The Dems are our modern day Rudy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

pooltchr
01-06-2006, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote moblsv:</font><hr> Dems way - Increase education, business and economic growth for all internally. Incourage development of talent, engineering, innovative technologies and business development within the US. Outsourcing, insourcing, streamlining of supply chains all help lower prices to help all and give poor hope and give countries around the world common economic interests to keep peace. Better internal education keeps the high paying jobs in the US, more people moving to highter paying jobs means smaller pool of uneducated to fill labor jobs and therefore higher pay and more incentive for less educated lines of labor (unless we just open the borders to take these jobs). Make Welfare available for those who need it as a safety net but fix the system help people who will help themselves not just give them money becasue they're poor (Clinton's welfare reform act). Make business be responsible to stakeholders, not just shareholders, that means the air, water, wildlife, employees, community, not just shareholders. IOW, study problems, find solutions

<hr /></blockquote>

Should we all join hands and sing Kum-bi-ya????

eg8r
01-06-2006, 08:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Dems way - Increase education, business and economic growth for all internally. <hr /></blockquote> See, there you go again. They are not increasing education. Don't you get it. They are just throwing money at education and allowing those in charge of the teacher's unions frivolously spend it. Quit kidding yourself and look at the actual situation and what the Dem party has offered to do. Oh yeah, in order to increase education, they must get that money from one of two places (or a combination of both): <ul type="square"> Reduce spending in other areas to free the monies up for education TAX TAX TAX [/list] Now, just which one do you think more closely aligns itself with the Democrats? So, you have offered nothing more than what my post already stated (INCREASE TAXES). There is absolutely ZERO proof that throwing money at the educational system is effective. Lets take Atlanta for example. The government spends more money per child in Atlanta than anywhere else in the entire country. Are they the smartest? Hardly. They are at the very bottom when ranked nationally.

Now, increase business and economic growth. Do you have any examples of how this happens? Let me remind you once again the Democratic mantra...TAX TAX TAX. Are there any examples of increasing taxes having a high correlation to economic growth? I doubt it, and if there are, how long did it last.

eg8r

Chopstick
01-06-2006, 09:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>
THink I'll go and invest in Tungsten... the market is almost right for it... and i want to be filty rich /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hmmm, that might not be a bad idea. Tungsten is a very interesting material. Aside from being the primary component in light bulbs it has another use. Rail gun projectiles. We are going to be seeing a lot of those flying around in the next ten years.

nAz
01-06-2006, 09:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> ... and mean while the rich will stay rich.


<hr /></blockquote>

And just what is the problem with this? Someone works hard, builds a successful business, makes money, grows the business, gives people jobs. That's what makes the economy grow. I really don't understand why the "rich" seem to be the target of so much criticism. Where is the motivation to work hard and be productive if it is not the ability to be rewarded for your efforts? Would the country be better off if Bill Gates lost everything, Microsoft went under, and all their employees were competing for jobs at McDonalds?
Oh yeah, He would no longer be able to give so much to charity as he does now. Do a little research as to just how much of his money the man GIVES AWAY every year to charity.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Hi Steve
your right I agree there is nothing wrong with being rich... it is something that we should all strive to become (i prefer to be healthy and happy first) what i meant about the rich staying rich is the length that the republicans, demos and big business with their lobbyist will go through to stay rich, at the expense of the poor and middle class. I still remember that a lot of Americans got really rich under the Clinton administration and with out all the tax cuts Bush has given so far.
as for Gates good for him to give out all that money I'm sure it warms his heart just like anyone who donates time or money to good causes, maybe he is realizing that you can not take it with you when you croak. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

nAz
01-06-2006, 09:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>

No one is turning a blind eye, there are just different ways to look at the situation. The idea to continue taxing does not make sense, just like increasing the size of government and spending does not make any sense.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Well I have to agree with you too much taxing can hurt this contry... but when you Cut tax revenue and then run up and outrages deficit at the same time well all your doing is asking for trouble and eg8r we all know who is gonna pay for this. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

supergreenman
01-06-2006, 10:07 AM
So, what this guy is saying is: Republicans win because Americans like thier politics spoon fed to them. Oh, it all makes sense now. That's not really that much of a suprise.

James

wolfdancer
01-06-2006, 11:43 AM
eg8r, wouldn't it be nice if the choices were that simple?
"O sancta simplicitas"
I don't want to debate the issues, but:
#1- He is is moving to the center faster than the Dems care to admit. ( I began to smile )
#2- This guy has a great idea to privatize retirement, and reduce taxes. (Uncontrollable laughter)
#3- The problem is that he is WAY to liberal with the checkbook. (The tears were rolling down my face)
Thanks for the good laugh, it's a great way to begin the day.
Even if...........all that you state was true:
the Dems for some reason, want to give away your hard earned money
the Repubs, are reducing Gov't spending and taxes
W is reducing taxes, increasing spending ...quite a trick, but Cheney knows a trick or two about balancing a ledger(I'm sure Keynes or Galbraith would love to study GW's economic theories)
The problem is....we'll never recover from the economic damages incurred by this war.
AND..We are no longer a manufacturing country....we have almost nothing but food to export....even our hi-tech jobs are being outsourced....we went from being a lender country, to being a borrower country.
so here's to what's awaiting us "Cras ingens iterabimus"

wolfdancer
01-06-2006, 12:12 PM
you might have been kidding about investing in tungsten....but I let a great opportunity slip by. The CEO of OMG, made some high risk investments, putting up his shares to margin the investments. OMG deals in rare metals like Cobalt (and tungsten, I believe)
When he got a margin call, and the market was flooded with his shares, the stock dropped from the $30's to around $6...which is where I bought in.....then dropped into the $2 + range.....I bought some more, and when the stock came back to the $6 level, I sold it all at a slight profit......but then with the onset of the war, and new demand for precious metals....it went back into the $30's......it now trades around $18
And Bush thinks I can self-direct my retirement account?????

eg8r
01-06-2006, 01:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
you might have been kidding about investing in tungsten....but I let a great opportunity slip by. The CEO of OMG, made some high risk investments, putting up his shares to margin the investments. OMG deals in rare metals like Cobalt (and tungsten, I believe)
When he got a margin call, and the market was flooded with his shares, the stock dropped from the $30's to around $6...which is where I bought in.....then dropped into the $2 + range.....I bought some more, and when the stock came back to the $6 level, I sold it all at a slight profit......but then with the onset of the war, and new demand for precious metals....it went back into the $30's......it now trades around $18
And Bush thinks I can self-direct my retirement account????? <hr /></blockquote> LOL, nope, he does not think you can self-direct your retirement account (he is just hoping the little you did profit was more than the 1% he can gaurantee). /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
01-06-2006, 01:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the good laugh, it's a great way to begin the day. <font color="red"> Like I said in another post, I am in a good mood. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>
Even if...........all that you state was true: <font color="red"> Sure it was. </font color>
the Dems for some reason, want to give away your hard earned money <font color="red"> and you to are telling the truth </font color>
the Repubs, are reducing Gov't spending <font color="red"> This is the part where Bush is very liberal. He has no intention of reducing government, in fact he is growing it. </font color> and taxes
W is reducing taxes, increasing spending ...quite a trick <font color="red"> no trick, it is horrible money management skills. In order to reduce taxes you need to either reduce spending or reduce the taxes that would spur a return. By reducing income tax, the government will still see a net gain because of the sales tax. People, given back more of their money, will spend it. Undoubtedly, plenty will be spent on alcohol and smokes which carry even higher taxes. In the end, an income tax break is good for the government. </font color> , but Cheney knows a trick or two about balancing a ledger(I'm sure Keynes or Galbraith would love to study GW's economic theories <font color="red"> I am not ashamed to admit that W has no economic theories at all /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color> )
The problem is....we'll never recover from the economic damages incurred by this war. <font color="red"> You are no fortune teller or economist so leave that up to them. For every Gayle preaching doom and gloom there is a deeman preaching good news. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif </font color>
AND..We are no longer a manufacturing country....we have almost nothing but food to export....even our hi-tech jobs are being outsourced....we went from being a lender country, to being a borrower country. <font color="red"> I would not argue completely with this. However, most of this is not because of W or the Reps. If the government would step out of business and allow business to take of themselves then business would never have left. Minimum wage and high taxes are the big reasons to outsource jobs both calamities of the Democratic party. </font color>
so here's to what's awaiting us "Cras ingens iterabimus"
<hr /></blockquote>

This is way off topic, but, why do you suppose so many businesses are leaving the US or outsourcing portions of their business? What do you feel is driving them to do so?

eg8r

eg8r
01-06-2006, 01:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well I have to agree with you too much taxing can hurt this contry... but when you Cut tax revenue and then run up and outrages deficit at the same time well all your doing is asking for trouble and eg8r we all know who is gonna pay for this. <hr /></blockquote> I agree. However, we probably have a different view point on who is going to pay...I say the rich. They foot the majority of the bill as it is now. If left to the Dems they will begin footing a larger portion.

This is why I say W is more liberal than Dems care to admit. He shows no signs of following the Rep line. Sure there are things he does that are very very conservative but his spending and government growth are out of control. I don't have a problem with funding the war, I agree with funding it because it would not make any sense going to war if you had no intention to fund it. However, I do feel the money should be taken from other areas that should not be getting money to begin with. There are billions of government dollars being wasted (the arts, a bridge in Alaska for 5 families on an island to make it back to the mainland, an airplane painted with homeland security money to the tune of $250,000, a trailer that was purchased with homeland security money to move around a lawn mower racer in Maine).

eg8r

eg8r
01-06-2006, 01:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
what i meant about the rich staying rich is the length that the republicans, demos and big business with their lobbyist will go through to stay rich, at the expense of the poor and middle class. <hr /></blockquote> What expense are you referring to? I am just guessing that you are not rich, so if that is true, what expense have you incurred because the guy next to you on the subway is rich?

eg8r

Chopstick
01-06-2006, 01:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
what i meant about the rich staying rich is the length that the republicans, demos and big business with their lobbyist will go through to stay rich, at the expense of the poor and middle class. <hr /></blockquote> What expense are you referring to? I am just guessing that you are not rich, so if that is true, what expense have you incurred because the guy next to you on the subway is rich?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

This is a valid point. There seems to be a general perception on the left that the only way wealth can exist is if someone else has been deprived of their fair share. That prosperity is a finite pool that must be evenly divided. Prosperity is not limited. It is created dynamically by a persons own ambition and persistance.

wolfdancer
01-06-2006, 02:57 PM
"This is way off topic, but, why do you suppose so many businesses are leaving the US or outsourcing portions of their business? What do you feel is driving them to do so?

eg8r"

You're not asking any expert's opinion here....but it's a two-fold problem, i believe.
You have cheap labor in foreign countries, and no major corp here wants to invest in any new facilities, that would make us competitive.
So the new plants and facilities are being built overseas...
I think it's scary....at the onset of WWII, we were able to go from domestic production, to retooling for needed war machinery, in just a short time.
It's also very troublesome to me that our banks and credit card issuers have their customer service, and our data in third world countries.
And then there are companies like Calpine....that are going to pay the CEO, an ungodly amount for a "successful bankruptcy"
Insane payola at the top of these corporations....and then they outsource...to try to cut costs
What's your theory on the outsourcing?

Deeman3
01-06-2006, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> "This is way off topic, but, why do you suppose so many businesses are leaving the US or outsourcing portions of their business? What do you feel is driving them to do so?

eg8r"

You're not asking any expert's opinion here....but it's a two-fold problem, i believe.
You have cheap labor in foreign countries, and no major corp here wants to invest in any new facilities, that would make us competitive.
So the new plants and facilities are being built overseas...
I think it's scary....at the onset of WWII, we were able to go from domestic production, to retooling for needed war machinery, in just a short time.
It's also very troublesome to me that our banks and credit card issuers have their customer service, and our data in third world countries.
And then there are companies like Calpine....that are going to pay the CEO, an ungodly amount for a "successful bankruptcy"
Insane payola at the top of these corporations....and then they outsource...to try to cut costs <font color="blue"> This is a something new?</font color>
What's your theory on the outsourcing?

<font color="blue"> My theory on outsourcing is that it's been happening for 50 plus years. It was first textiles and shoes, then TV's and microwaves, then automobiles. It was not until the service industry jobs started going overseas until the left started noticing. Now they want to blame Bush for environmental, heath care and other escalating costs that have been driving business out for decades. If you protect every tree, there is a real price to be paid. if you expect lower rung workers to be able to buy SUV's, a second home in the Hamptons there is a price to be paid. I don't blame the wacky left for the regulations they have pushed, we all want nicer places to work and to be able to hug a few trees. It's just, as before, there is a price to be paid. The ecconomy is already global and we can't hide behind sanctions anymore as we just don't carry the ecconomic clout we did 30 years ago. By the way, I agree with Ed that GWB is a spendthrift to challenge even the far left.</font color>

Deeman
<hr /></blockquote>

moblsv
01-06-2006, 04:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
What's your theory on the outsourcing?
<hr /></blockquote>

I am far too lazy to attempt to cover the details in a forum post. If anyone is really interested in the subject of outsourcing I would recommend reading The World is Flat by Thomas L. Freidman.

wolfdancer
01-06-2006, 05:13 PM
Dee, I usually don't have any trouble seeing the logic in your thinking....but maybe your passion,and biases are taking over.......
[ QUOTE ]
This is a something new? <hr /></blockquote>
Never claimed it to be.....but,trying to dismiss the statement by it being "old news"..............???
See, Ed8r asked for my opinion, and a first offered a disclaimer, then expressed my ideas. they may not be correct, and they sure as hell don't agree with yours.....but I stand by them (and none of this "debate" is meant to be personal" )In fact, I was hoping to get an invite to your home in the Hamptons. As I remember it, we were turned around when we tried to drive through, and I'd still like to see how the other half....make that the 2%, live.
But it's really the last paragraph that I have a problem with:

[ QUOTE ]
My theory on outsourcing is that it's been happening for 50 plus years. It was first textiles and shoes, then TV's and microwaves, then automobiles. It was not until the service industry jobs started going overseas until the left started noticing. Now they want to blame Bush for environmental, heath care and other escalating costs that have been driving business out for decades. If you protect every tree, there is a real price to be paid. if you expect lower rung workers to be able to buy SUV's, a second home in the Hamptons there is a price to be paid. I don't blame the wacky left for the regulations they have pushed, we all want nicer places to work and to be able to hug a few trees. It's just, as before, there is a price to be paid. The ecconomy is already global and we can't hide behind sanctions anymore as we just don't carry the ecconomic clout we did 30 years ago. By the way, I agree with Ed that GWB is a spendthrift to challenge even the far left. <hr /></blockquote>
So if the left took all these years to notice outsourcing....what about the right? they noticed, but approved, and lined their own pockets, at the expense of the
American worker?
And if the "left" ( I'm never sure who these nefarious Lefts really are....do you have a demographic?...) if the left took these 50 yrs to notice ( I see now why they are all working for Wal Mart, the ones that ain't on welfare, that is)...if the ignorant left just realised after 50 years that their jobs are going overseas.....was there a time limit on complaining about it, or trying to halt it? They should just keep quiet?
Next topic....you don't blame the wacky left for environmental regs?....but they should realise that if they want a second home in the Hamptons, or an SUV....they should realise there is a price to be paid???????????????
The Hamptons is out...for anybody working for a paycheck...
And if you could buy there, it'd be another 50 years before you would be "accepted".
I think everybody knows thatsaving forests from wholesale logging, saving land from strip mining helps the environment, but comes at a steep cost.
And if the left is wacky for trying to control our air quality, forests, inland waters, etc....then lock me up in the same Asylum.
One only has to read the story behind "Erin Brokovich", etc to see what companies without regulatory controls, will do in pursuit of the almighty dollar.
every President gets blamed for the zeitgeist of his term in office....and for all the "crises" that occur during his reign.
We don't really blame old GWB for the problems.....but it is annoying that he has no ****'g clue on how to correct them.
If you are trying to blame the American worker for the economic quagmire we are in.....what happened to high priced management while this was occurring? What happened to the right....that they weren't able to keep the proletariots in their place?

SPetty
01-06-2006, 05:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> ... what expense have you incurred because the guy next to you on the subway is rich?<hr /></blockquote>Rich guys ride the subway? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Drop1
01-06-2006, 06:17 PM
Tap Tap Tap A great book on the subject.

nAz
01-07-2006, 12:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
what i meant about the rich staying rich is the length that the republicans, demos and big business with their lobbyist will go through to stay rich, at the expense of the poor and middle class. <hr /></blockquote> What expense are you referring to? I am just guessing that you are not rich, so if that is true, what expense have you incurred because the guy next to you on the subway is rich?

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

me? nothing really i have been pretty lucky. my home is paid off i have a decent job with great benefits but the pay is so so . I'm 36 single and have two great kids... however that does not keep me from thinking of my fellow Americans rich and poor alike, including you and everyone one else on this board that does and does not agree with what i write. my main concern is with this war and the tax cuts and the spiraling deficit. who is going to pay for it, you me and our kids our kids kids ?
i don't know about you or the rich guy on the train next to me but i sure don't know how i can afford to pay that and try to put my kids through school. I really don't want to get a second job to do it, i like spending time with my family, enjoying my home and playing pool.

todays rich people will probably not be affected by a slight tax increase to pay for it but todays and tomorrows middle class will feel it hard.

when I hear that Iraq is costing 2k lives and over $300 billion and now monies to pay for it i get pissed at W and confused at everyone that still backs him. doesn't it bother you? even a little?

nAz
01-07-2006, 12:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> you might have been kidding about investing in tungsten....but I let a great opportunity slip by. The CEO of OMG, made some high risk investments, putting up his shares to margin the investments. OMG deals in rare metals like Cobalt (and tungsten, I believe)
When he got a margin call, and the market was flooded with his shares, the stock dropped from the $30's to around $6...which is where I bought in.....then dropped into the $2 + range.....I bought some more, and when the stock came back to the $6 level, I sold it all at a slight profit......but then with the onset of the war, and new demand for precious metals....it went back into the $30's......it now trades around $18
And Bush thinks I can self-direct my retirement account????? <hr /></blockquote>

Well i am serious about it. i think this year it's gonna move in a positive way... but still... it's a gamble and i could only risk so much. thank some god that HAL (NYSE) is doing well /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

wolfdancer
01-07-2006, 12:45 AM
Hal...you're right...the Gods do favor them.
And Bush's old company HEC...is on a roll, up .06 today
to a lofty $.66
Not bad for a company that once sold for $100 a share.

Deeman3
01-07-2006, 08:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dee, I usually don't have any trouble seeing the logic in your thinking....but maybe your passion,and biases are taking over....... <font color="blue"> I think you may have a point. I probably threw out the "L" word out of passion, not meaning to bash the entire left. </font color>
&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
This is a something new? <hr /></blockquote>
Never claimed it to be.....but,trying to dismiss the statement by it being "old news"..............???
See, Ed8r asked for my opinion, and a first offered a disclaimer, then expressed my ideas. they may not be correct, and they sure as hell don't agree with yours.....but I stand by them (and none of this "debate" is meant to be personal" )In fact, I was hoping to get an invite to your home in the Hamptons. As I remember it, we were turned around when we tried to drive through, and I'd still like to see how the other half....make that the 2%, live. <font color="blue"> You should have used my name! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif </font color>
But it's really the last paragraph that I have a problem with:

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
My theory on outsourcing is that it's been happening for 50 plus years. It was first textiles and shoes, then TV's and microwaves, then automobiles. It was not until the service industry jobs started going overseas until the left started noticing. Now they want to blame Bush for environmental, heath care and other escalating costs that have been driving business out for decades. If you protect every tree, there is a real price to be paid. if you expect lower rung workers to be able to buy SUV's, a second home in the Hamptons there is a price to be paid. I don't blame the wacky left for the regulations they have pushed, we all want nicer places to work and to be able to hug a few trees. It's just, as before, there is a price to be paid. The ecconomy is already global and we can't hide behind sanctions anymore as we just don't carry the ecconomic clout we did 30 years ago. By the way, I agree with Ed that GWB is a spendthrift to challenge even the far left. <hr /></blockquote>
So if the left took all these years to notice outsourcing....what about the right? they noticed, but approved, and lined their own pockets, at the expense of the
American worker? <font color="blue"> As I said, I probabaly laid too much of this on the doorstep of the left. Especially when we all colluded to raise costs in many areas. </font color>
And if the "left" ( I'm never sure who these nefarious Lefts really are....do you have a demographic?...) if the left took these 50 yrs to notice ( I see now why they are all working for Wal Mart, the ones that ain't on welfare, that is)...if the ignorant left just realised after 50 years that their jobs are going overseas.....was there a time limit on complaining about it, or trying to halt it? They should just keep quiet? <font color="blue"> No, they should not keep quiet. However, it is silly to believe the "nefarious, ignorant left" as you classify them, /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif are all Walmart greeters. Many are ketchup manufacturers or singer and actots who have clothing lines made in sweatshops in India. </font color>
Next topic....you don't blame the wacky left for environmental regs?....but they should realise that if they want a second home in the Hamptons, or an SUV....they should realise there is a price to be paid???????????????
The Hamptons is out...for anybody working for a paycheck...
And if you could buy there, it'd be another 50 years before you would be "accepted".
I think everybody knows thatsaving forests from wholesale logging, saving land from strip mining helps the environment, but comes at a steep cost.
And if the left is wacky for trying to control our air quality, forests, inland waters, etc....then lock me up in the same Asylum. <font color="blue"> Me too, but, as I said, it comes at a cost. is it worth the cost? Yes, if you are employed and comfy. If you are starving, the color of the ozone may not be your top priority. </font color>
One only has to read the story behind "Erin Brokovich", etc to see what companies without regulatory controls, will do in pursuit of the almighty dollar. <font color="blue"> No, this was a company that had plenty of environmental control s, they just choose to break the law, murder and cover it up. More regulations was not the answer there, better law enforcement was the answer.</font color>
every President gets blamed for the zeitgeist of his term in office....and for all the "crises" that occur during his reign. <font color="blue"> True.</font color>
We don't really blame old GWB for the problems.....but it is annoying that he has no ****'g clue on how to correct them. <font color="blue">Oh. Is it annoying that no democrat has come forth with any ideas to solve these problems? If they have please tell us what their solutions are, other than get rid of GWB. </font color>
If you are trying to blame the American worker for the economic quagmire we are in.....what happened to high priced management while this was occurring? What happened to the right....that they weren't able to keep the proletariots in their place? <font color="blue"> I don't blame the American worker, he took what he could. Now we have a problem with long term pension costs, pay much higher than the world competition allows and it's the fault of us all. It does bring about the long term issue of how do people making $12 an hour buy cars and trucks made by people making $30 an hour? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman

wolfdancer
01-07-2006, 09:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If they have please tell us what their solutions are, other than get rid of GWB. <hr /></blockquote>
Well, that would be a good start....then maybe a mass cabinet resignation...
I remember when we were complaining about the cheap goods coming in from Japan.....and some years later the Japanese were concerned about trying to compete with Korean goods.
I think that you're right, it's now a world economy, and until other countries are on parity with us,there are more difficult times ahead.
It's an unsolvable problem, even for the economic genious we have at 1600 Penn ave, who relies on the economic theories of Johann Heinrich von Thünen (1783 - 1850)
A = Ö ap
[The natural wage, A, is the square root of (ap), where p is the worker's product and a is his
subsistence requirements.]
I'm only guessing here......but the min. substance requirements, would naturally appeal to Bush and the ultra right

AND on a more serious note..........hope you are enjoying the action at Derby City.....while I couldn't afford to go there, I managed to find an extra $30 in my monthly welfare check(ss) and am watching the webcasts on my pc.....some tech glitches, but I saw most of the ring game...even noticed the famous "Bucktooth" in the audience. Tonite's Bank Pool ring game should be worth the $30.....but it's the one pocket that I really want to see.

Gayle in MD
01-07-2006, 10:50 AM
Tap Tap Tap...great book, and also, Lou Dobbs, The Outsourcing Of America.

When you hear the way some of the younger posters think about America, where our priorities should be, and how our disadvantaged should be treated, it doesn't inspire much admiration for who they are as individuals. It seems to be the tactic of those on the right, to take every point to a ridiculous extreme, just muddy up the waters to avoid acknowledging the devastatng effect that King George and his crooked, piggy knights are having on our country.

When young people are so hopelessly ignorant that they have no concern regarding the massive debt created by the greedy, and impractical policies, which encompass absolutely no regard for those in our country who are disadvantaged, and have been so duped that they can't see beyond the faulty economic reports of the state of the union, or the results of the massive debt for our children and grand children, one can only feel sorry for them.

Some, who have raised children, paid tuition, launched businesses, lived through economic ups and downs, and managed to achieved a comfortable life, some people notice along the way that not all have been as fortunate as they have been, and not because they were lazy, or wanted a handout, but because misfortune over which they had no control, just happened to come their way.

Compassion for those who begin in this world, with three strikes against them, the day they come into it, should be a concern for all those who desire to see a stronger America, with healthy people, and true opportunity for every class level. Those who have no appreciation or ability for empathy, can not look at the disadvantaged amoung us, and understand the emotion of "There, but for the grace of God, go I." Youth, being what it is, contributes to the faulty conclusion that those who suffer, and do without, and struggle, have somehow brought their own plight upon themselves. This, of course, is not reality, and when government adopts policies which are devoid of compassion, such as creating a policy which brings about the loss of one's home, in bankrupt circumstances, in order to help the credit card industry, regardless of whether individuals have been ill, or deserted by their partners flight from responsibility, and looks away from corporate polution, which brings about greater and greater numbers who suffer from cancer and other illnesses, these are just a few examples of how goverment, while it should not endeavor to remove competition, or provide "Free rides" it nevertheless should have compassion in the decisions it makes.

It is in this failure of the Bush administration that our society has suffered the most, for now we have a whole generation of young people who think they know all about life, and can't begin to see how their own future, and the future of their children, their health, their education, and their opportunities are being mortgaged by King George Bush, and the party in power. The strength and power of a country can only be measured by the way it cares for its needy, old, and ill. The greatest change which I observe when republicans are in power is all about the abandonment of that greatest responsibility. This administration, holy as it proclaims itself to be, has abandoned those responsibilities, and done so in a quest of power, cronyism, and false proclaimations of Economic Growth, at the expense of the Middle class, and in the interest of the rich.

There is nothing more repulsive to me, than listening to the self proclaimed "Christian Values" of those very republicans who have brought about this great assult on the middle class, and poor among us. With every indictment, one is reminded of the totally repulsive motivations and true lack of values which are the hallmark of George Bush and the right.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
01-07-2006, 11:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
If they have please tell us what their solutions are, other than get rid of GWB. <hr /></blockquote>
Well, that would be a good start....then maybe a mass cabinet resignation...
I remember when we were complaining about the cheap goods coming in from Japan.....and some years later the Japanese were concerned about trying to compete with Korean goods.
I think that you're right, it's now a world economy, and until other countries are on parity with us,there are more difficult times ahead.
It's an unsolvable problem, even for the economic genious we have at 1600 Penn ave, who relies on the economic theories of Johann Heinrich von Thünen (1783 - 1850)
A = Ö ap
[The natural wage, A, is the square root of (ap), where p is the worker's product and a is his
subsistence requirements.]
I'm only guessing here......but the min. substance requirements, would naturally appeal to Bush and the ultra right

AND on a more serious note..........hope you are enjoying the action at Derby City.....while I couldn't afford to go there, I managed to find an extra $30 in my monthly welfare check(ss) and am watching the webcasts on my pc.....some tech glitches, but I saw most of the ring game...even noticed the famous "Bucktooth" in the audience. Tonite's Bank Pool ring game should be worth the $30.....but it's the one pocket that I really want to see. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">Yeah, I think you've talked me into the webcast as I don't leave for the Derby until Tuesday. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif I can't wait to see Bucktooth. I haven't seen him bellow in many years. Although I do seem to see him every onece in a while on the news, at the strangest times, being robbed, giving the business next door a hard time. What next? At least we know there will be action at the Derby, as if there isn't enough. Wish you could be there, we could drink a few to the real political leaders in the country, IBM, GM, ACLU, etc. LOL

Deeman </font color>

nAz
01-07-2006, 12:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>
when I hear that Iraq is costing 2k lives and over $300 billion and now monies to pay for it i get pissed at W and confused at everyone that still backs him. doesn't it bother you? even a little? <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Ed i need to edit that last comment...you have a child so i know that it does bother you and that you do care. even if it is just a little bit /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Deeman3
01-07-2006, 12:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Tap Tap Tap...great book, and also, Lou Dobbs, The Outsourcing Of America.

When you hear the way some of the younger posters think about America, where our priorities should be, and how our disadvantaged should be treated, it doesn't inspire much admiration for who they are as individuals. It seems to be the tactic of those on the right, to take every point to a ridiculous extreme, just muddy up the waters to avoid acknowledging the devastatng effect that King George and his crooked, piggy knights are having on our country. <font color="blue"> Gayle,
I don't think there's a lot wrong with the balance of American kids. I do feel bad that some of them may not have the same ecconomic opportunity that many of us had. A lot of this does fall on their shoulders. We are one country where an education for 13 years is free and many, many of the kids don't even take advantage of it. Fault, I'm not sure but certainly even the most liberal among us would require some effort on their part. After all, the total sum of our coutries education impacts our competitiveness. </font color>

When young people are so hopelessly ignorant that they have no concern regarding the massive debt created by the greedy, and impractical policies, which encompass absolutely no regard for those in our country who are disadvantaged, and have been so duped that they can't see beyond the faulty economic reports of the state of the union, or the results of the massive debt for our children and grand children, one can only feel sorry for them. <font color="blue"> With NPR, ABC, the New York Times, and other left of center media, how do they miss this knowledge? Have you watched Street Smarts or Jaywalking? This is the product of the highest level of spending for public education in our history? Is it possible there is something else that is wrong? A person's personal responsibility to do some self-education? </font color>

Some, who have raised children, paid tuition, launched businesses, lived through economic ups and downs, and managed to achieved a comfortable life, some people notice along the way that not all have been as fortunate as they have been, and not because they were lazy, or wanted a handout, but because misfortune over which they had no control, just happened to come their way. <font color="blue"> I'm in this group. I had misfortune. However, I had to go on or I would have no control over the outcome. </font color>

Compassion for those who begin in this world, with three strikes against them, the day they come into it, should be a concern for all those who desire to see a stronger America, with healthy people, and true opportunity for every class level. Those who have no appreciation or ability for empathy, can not look at the disadvantaged amoung us, and understand the emotion of "There, but for the grace of God, go I." Youth, being what it is, contributes to the faulty conclusion that those who suffer, and do without, and struggle, have somehow brought their own plight upon themselves. <font color="blue">Sometimes, they have not brought it on themselves, but you have to understand that in some cases they have. To believe that every misfortune was heaped upon them by a government is enablement, not real help, it is the democratic "victim" mentality. </font color> This, of course, is not reality, and when government adopts policies which are devoid of compassion, <font color="blue"> Do you believe the social welfare system, set up and supported by the democrats, more than anyone, is a compassionate system? Do you really think money given to people with no expectation of personal accountability works? </font color> such as creating a policy which brings about the loss of one's home, in bankrupt circumstances, in order to help the credit card industry, regardless of whether individuals have been ill, or deserted by their partners flight from responsibility, and looks away from corporate polution, which brings about greater and greater numbers who suffer from cancer and other illnesses, these are just a few examples of how goverment, while it should not endeavor to remove competition, or provide "Free rides" it nevertheless should have compassion in the decisions it makes. <font color="blue"> How do you propose doing this without removing competition or "free Rides"? </font color>

It is in this failure of the Bush administration that our society has suffered the most, for now we have a whole generation of young people who think they know all about life, and can't begin to see how their own future, and the future of their children, their health, their education, and their opportunities are being mortgaged by King George Bush, and the party in power. The strength and power of a country can only be measured by the way it cares for its needy, old, and ill. <font color="blue"> Unfortunately, trhe measure of a country is not how it takes care of it's needy, old and ill. We are measured by GNP, Productivity, Savings and debt rates. If we could measure our success by the things you state it would be an ideal world. </font color> The greatest change which I observe when republicans are in power is all about the abandonment of that greatest responsibility. This administration, holy as it proclaims itself to be, has abandoned those responsibilities, and done so in a quest of power, cronyism, and false proclaimations of Economic Growth, at the expense of the Middle class, and in the interest of the rich. <font color="blue"> This same administration is providing $90,000 trailers for temporary housing for the Hurricane Victims, they have not cut welfare roles as I can see. The breaucratic leaches in Washington and at local levels still have their non-productivenon-service jobs and benefits, God is being successfully out of schools with drugs taking their place. Dangerous religous values are being replaced by secular values, little that they are, and schools have increased violence, increased unwed motherhood, students that graduate that cannot read. What do you attribute this to? George Bush? </font color>

There is nothing more repulsive to me, than listening to the self proclaimed "Christian Values" of those very republicans who have brought about this great assult on the middle class, and poor among us. With every indictment, one is reminded of the totally repulsive motivations and true lack of values which are the hallmark of George Bush and the right. <font color="blue"> Gayle, soon we may have George Bush gone and you can replace him with someone who is more in line with your values. Then we can have more abortions, more street killings and more of what the left has sought for many years, a secular society with no accoountability for one's own survival. Then you will ahve the millions of dependents you are seeking.

If the Christians are so bad, as you say, why do they give in so much larger numbers to charity than the secular community? Why would you lump a few abortion clinic bomber fanatics with the other 99.99 percent of Christians then ask thet we not judge Islam by what a few of them do? Is this consistent? Just asking? </font color>

Deeman
sorry I missed the part where we were forced to accumulate more credit card debt than we could repay.

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
01-07-2006, 02:40 PM
Dee, I think we need the right to rein in the left, or we might become a welfare nation.
And we need the left to rein in the right, or we would have public beheadings, for bible infractions...I'm sorry, sins.
And while this great debate goes on, Tom Delay has stepped down permanently as majority, because.....that role is demanding, and when one has "personal distractions"....
However he is proud of this Republican led congress, that has reduced Gov't, reduced spending, reduced taxes, got people off welfare, and into the job sector, blah, blah.
Maybe Time's Man of the year??
wonder who writes his speeches...J.K. Rowling????
And I missed the name of the person that said this could be the most scandalous administration ever.
And that is saying something....I thought Nixon's record was untouchable, but like Roger Maris's home run record....
The Republicans have a great party.....but I think they need to do a little housekeeping....sweep out the trash....they could start at the top

Gayle in MD
01-07-2006, 08:52 PM
BWA HA HA HA JK Rawlings, too funny! Thanks, now I don't have to answer D's post, LOL. I do wish, however, that he wouldn't continue to take everything I say to the extreme. For example, of course I don't think people should get hand outs, with no accountability. The Democrats, under Clinton fought to get money for programs which assisted people, and they had great success in removing many of them from the welfare rolls.

If people can't see what Bush's policies are doing to this country, if they can't see the total failure of his educational program, the great mistake of taking this country to war due to his inability to properly sift through intelligence, instead of going off half cocked, and I do mean half cocked, for this war has been surely more mishandled than any other I can think of, if they can't see that it is important to hold corporations to some sort of standard regarding polution, and to conduct business in a way which contributes to our country, rather than tearing it down, and raping America, oh well, we'll just step back and let them continue to think that it's all good, Bush is a genius, Cheney is a savior, and God is telling them what to do, fine, let it roll, but let them each take responsibility for voting for George Bush when the $hit hits the fan, because he is the most incredibly ignorant, unrealistic, pie eyed nincompoop to ever sleep in the White House.

There is a civil war going on in Iraq, just exactly like he was TOLD there would be, and it is draining this country, $17,000.00 a second, to be exact, and costing the lives of our people everyday, while Dick Cheney holds secret meetings with the oil people, and Tom Delay takes golfing trips with scumbags like Abramoff, and Condoleeza Rice travels the world lying about what we do to people in secert prisons, and George Bush thumbs his nose at our Constitution, and breaks our laws with secret wire taps, while at the same time reassuring Americans that such surveillance will only be performed with Subpeona's and in the courts. LIAR LIAR LIAR&gt;. I have NEVER, EVER seen so many lying crooks gathered together in one party as what comprises the Republican Party today, and it is disgusting to have to listen to all their total BS about Values, and God, when they are absolute scum.

Whew, I feel so much better now! LMAO....

BTW, if you get the opportunity to see the documentary called The Corporation, don't miss it, and then you will have the opportunity to re-read what the right has written here, and have yourself a real good laugh about it, LOL.

Love,
Gayle

wolfdancer
01-07-2006, 10:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
"This is way off topic, but, why do you suppose so many businesses are leaving the US or outsourcing portions of their business? What do you feel is driving them to do so? <hr /></blockquote>
Not sure, but the idea is spreading:

http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/5326/asdv801zs.jpg

moblsv
01-08-2006, 09:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Tap Tap Tap...great book, and also, Lou Dobbs, The Outsourcing Of America. <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Gayle, I will add that to my reading list.

moblsv
01-08-2006, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Tap Tap Tap...great book, and also, Lou Dobbs, The Outsourcing Of America. <hr /></blockquote>

I was just thinking how I keep hearing this mantra that democrats don't offer any solutions. I have been reading books by Businessmen, Journalists, Scientists, Democrats, ... And these books are full of very good arguments for real solutions. Unfortunatly I can't put the solutions put forth in a 500 page book in a single forum post or on a bumper sticker. I wonder, do neo-cons read real books or just take in the bits and pieces of info that fit what they want to hear from the Internet and O'Reilly?

wolfdancer
01-08-2006, 10:19 AM
You and Gayle are violating the unwritten code here..
"nobody agrees with anybody"
And books?????
We don't need no stinking books......
we have "Newspeak" from Fox

Gayle in MD
01-09-2006, 01:52 AM
WOW...you sure hit the nail on the nose with that, and quite right, you only have to read a few of the posts from the right to realize that they don't read books! Protest though they may, it becomes very obvious after reading some of their posts, that, yes, they rely on O' Reilly for their political and social opinions. Given that O'Reilly has been critiqued by many media journalists, and proven to be a liar, taking statements made by Democrats, and talking heads from the left, and editing them to twist their meaning, one wonders why it is that the right in this country, (And especially on this forum) has such overwhelming love of liars like O'Reilly, Bush, Rice, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Delay, Frist, Hannity, oh my, the list of their admired liars is just too long to cover!

Amazing how half a country could be so duped by the Madison Avenue sound bytes which are created and constantly regurgitated by the right from the White House to the Cable channels for such an extended period of time. Soundbytes such as.... the Democrats have no plans or solutions, HA HA HA, more BS from the right. Having solutions is certainly not the mark of the right, that's for sure, "Oh, bin Laden attacked us, hey lets go attack some country that had nothing to do with 9/11. Yeah, lets start a war which will be militarily unwinnable, in a location which has never known or been inclined toward peace, and where a great number of people would like to blow us up for being on their soil in the first place, yeah, lets occupy??????????????? How dumb is that?

What is really funny is when they write about building bridges to nowhere, etc., apparently not realizing that republicans are responsible for the pork barrell spending of which they complain.

Deny reality, that is the tactic of the right, from the White House to the internet forums. Do they sound to you like the kind of folks who have been reading books? Nor to me, either.

I commend you for your interest in reading the many informative books which are there for all of us, unfortunately, much of the right, is more interested in sound bytes than in depth study of the issues of the day. And, the leaders on the right are far too busy covering up their illegal, unconstitutional activities, their money mongering, their overt, covert dirty tricks and torture, and their stealth quest to create an executive dictatorship in America, to be bothered with finding solutions. Republicans don't find solutions, they create division, war, deficits, enemies, and more big brother infringing on our constitutional rights and protections.

When you watch a party win an election by side tracking the urgent issues we are facing today through non issues like whether gays should marry, or whether women have a right to control their own destiny, and reproductive choices, you get an idea just how dumb those on the right really are. The one smart thing that the republicans knew, was that the their base was totally ignorant!

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
01-09-2006, 02:28 AM
I don't think that that is the perception of the left at all. I think that part of the philosophy of the left is that a Millionaire getting two hundred to three hundred thousand in tax relief, while a struggling middle class family with three children gets a thousand in tax relief, is not good economics. Which of the two uses more natural resources? The middle class isn't flying around in their own jets, for example. And that government policies which encourage corporations to make their money off Americans, and then rob them of their pensions, and send their jobs overseas, is not good policy. And that presidents who want to reward those who enter our country illegally, by breaking our laws, working under the table, and sending their money back home, are not in our best interest. And that corporations which make their money off Americans, live in America, and do not want to pay decent American wages, with health care benefits to Americans, should not be allowed to polute our country, and make those same Americans ill with diseases like cancer.

And that in the midst of the rising cancer rates, which are greatly increased by polution created by corporations, and rising American debt due to catestrophic illness, those who have become bankrupt through medical costs, should not lose their homes.

And that oil companies who have been making private secret deals behind closed doors with Dick Cheney, and are scooping up tremendous profits, should not be allowed to gouge the American public when it is already being assaulted by catastrophic natural disasters, and paying for the military expenses of a war which cannot be won militarily.

And that the Pharmeceutical Industry which has enjoyed unprecedented profits, should not be allowed to continue to gouge the American public, and pay off politicians with huge donations so that laws will be passed to prevent Americans from getting cheaper drugs from other countries.

The American middle class, IOW, should not have to bear the greater burden of illegal aliens, loss of loved ones in war, outsourcing of American jobs, credit card company costs, global trade adjustments, you name it. And wealthy millionaires in this country, should not be allowed to draw on Social Security. Should they pay into it, YES, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." There was a time when those words meant something to Corporate America.

Prosperity should be available to all, not just to the rich, who can afford to pay off crooked politicians in order to gouge the american middle class.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
01-09-2006, 05:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What's your theory on the outsourcing? <hr /></blockquote> My theory is pretty simple, Government has made it too expensive to operate in the US. The cheap labor goes above and beyond just the base rate that has to be paid to these people. As an example, the companies don't have to pay their retirement, healthcare, taxes, etc.

I do agree with you that the big companies overpay their top management. I don't remember which magazine I was reading, but they were making reference to the pay of top management when Mercedes and Chrysler merged. The Chrysler exec was making something like 400% more than the avg worker and the Merc exec was something like 32% more than the avg worker. It is ridiculous what they pay these guys on top.

eg8r

eg8r
01-09-2006, 05:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder, do neo-cons read real books or just take in the bits and pieces of info that fit what they want to hear from the Internet and O'Reilly? <hr /></blockquote> Nope they don't have time to read books, they are busy winning elections. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif You would think with all these smarts from the Left you guys would do something.

eg8r

eg8r
01-09-2006, 05:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If people can't see what Bush's policies are doing to this country, if they can't see the total failure of his educational program, <hr /></blockquote> Since you state his education program is such a failure, can you possibly give us a quick review of the state of education before he got here, and then maybe point out specifically what is worse?

eg8r

pooltchr
01-09-2006, 05:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> a Millionaire getting two hundred to three hundred thousand in tax relief, while a struggling middle class family with three children gets a thousand in tax relief, is not good economics. Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Please explain how you would structure taxes. You can't give $200K in tax relief to a family that pays maybe $$4000 total a year in taxes. Would it not make more sense to give a 10% tax cut based on the amount of taxes each individual pays? So the one that pays $4000 gets a $400 tax cut while the one that pays $20,000 in taxes gets a $2000 tax cut. The problem is that those who PAY MORE TAXES end up getting bigger dollar value tax cuts, even though the percentage of burden is shared equally. You seem to favor a bigger percentage for those who pay less and a smaller percentage for those who pay more. I think this may be the main point of where we disagree. Your idea of what is fair is different from mine.

If you want a real education on taxes, consider reading "The Fair Tax Book" by Boortz. It is very difficult to find fault with the ideas proposed.

(Yes, Gayle, I HAVE READ IT!)
Steve

eg8r
01-09-2006, 06:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
me? nothing really i have been pretty lucky. my home is paid off i have a decent job with great benefits but the pay is so so . I'm 36 single and have two great kids... however that does not keep me from thinking of my fellow Americans rich and poor alike, including you and everyone one else on this board that does and does not agree with what i write. my main concern is with this war and the tax cuts and the spiraling deficit. who is going to pay for it, you me and our kids our kids kids ?
i don't know about you or the rich guy on the train next to me but i sure don't know how i can afford to pay that and try to put my kids through school. I really don't want to get a second job to do it, i like spending time with my family, enjoying my home and playing pool.
<hr /></blockquote> This really is not what I am asking. I was asking, how does the rich getting richer happen at the expense of the poor. This was merely your statement, I am just asking you to explain it. I am not referring to taxes because a tax increase or decrease does not enable the rich to get richer. Taxes are monies taken from someone that have already been earned, so a tax break does not make anyone richer, they just get to keep money that was already theirs.
[ QUOTE ]
todays rich people will probably not be affected by a slight tax increase to pay for it but todays and tomorrows middle class will feel it hard.

when I hear that Iraq is costing 2k lives and over $300 billion and now monies to pay for it i get pissed at W and confused at everyone that still backs him. doesn't it bother you? even a little? <hr /></blockquote>
It does bother me that lives have been lost and monies have been spent however, I think the world is better off with that family removed from power. By removing Saddam and his horrible sons we have saved more than 2k lives. Heck his sons alone were probably killing 2k lives at their birthday parties.

eg8r

eg8r
01-09-2006, 06:04 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Rich guys ride the subway? <hr /></blockquote> Eye-opening, huh. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Yes, rich people also ride the subway.

eg8r

eg8r
01-09-2006, 06:14 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that that is the perception of the left at all. I think that part of the philosophy of the left is that a Millionaire getting two hundred to three hundred thousand in tax relief, while a struggling middle class family with three children gets a thousand in tax relief, is not good economics. <hr /></blockquote> Wrong. You have stated it here plenty, that the poor will pay for this war. That the rich getting richers only costs the poor. You just don't like being asked to clarify yourself.

It is absolutely the left's mantra that the rich getting richer is harmful or bad for the poor. They state it every single time an election is coming. Oh the rich are getting richer, the rich are getting richer. SO WHAT GAYLE. How does that hurt the poor?

eg8r

DickLeonard
01-09-2006, 06:14 AM
Naz I have never seen what the average salary at Microsoft is. I wonder if it is $9.00 an hour. Imagine if it's $30 an hour and Gates is donating that money it is truly a remarkable fete. Being a benevolent employer and a truly humanitarian man.

It makes me sick when Wal-Mart donates anything while not offering their employees basic health care etc. Take care of your own first then it is Charitable. Screw them and it if false charity.####

eg8r
01-09-2006, 06:15 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If you want a real education on taxes, consider reading "The Fair Tax Book" by Boortz. It is very difficult to find fault with the ideas proposed.
<hr /></blockquote> With how well read she is, I am sure Gayle has already zipped through this little gold nugget. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

wolfdancer
01-09-2006, 07:01 AM
When a CEO makes thousands of times more then the worker, that is what is meant.

Workplace Fairness: in the news
At the 367 biggest companies last year, average CEO take-home pay was $11.8 million. Average worker pay, meanwhile, was a mere $27460. ...
www.workplacefairness.org/index.php?page=news (http://www.workplacefairness.org/index.php?page=news) - 101k - Jan 6, 2006 -

American companies are busily outsourcing workers when they should be insourcing CEOs from other countries. U.S. CEOs are way too expensive.

U.S. CEOs make 23 times as much as CEOs in mainland China, 10 times as much as CEOs in India and 9 times as much as CEOs in Taiwan, according to the latest Towers Perrin worldwide survey.

European and Japanese CEOs run many of the world's leading companies for a lot less pay than Americans. U.S. CEOs make five times as much as CEOs in Japan, four times as much as CEOs in Spain, three times as much as CEOs in the United Kingdom, France, Italy and the Netherlands, and twice as much as CEOs in Germany and Switzerland.

http://www.ms.foundation.org/wmspage.cfm?parm1=187

Deeman3
01-09-2006, 07:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> When a CEO makes thousands of times more then the worker, that is what is meant.

Workplace Fairness: in the news
At the 367 biggest companies last year, average CEO take-home pay was $11.8 million. Average worker pay, meanwhile, was a mere $27460. ...
www.workplacefairness.org/index.php?page=news (http://www.workplacefairness.org/index.php?page=news) - 101k - Jan 6, 2006 -

American companies are busily outsourcing workers when they should be insourcing CEOs from other countries. U.S. CEOs are way too expensive.

U.S. CEOs make 23 times as much as CEOs in mainland China, 10 times as much as CEOs in India and 9 times as much as CEOs in Taiwan, according to the latest Towers Perrin worldwide survey.

European and Japanese CEOs run many of the world's leading companies for a lot less pay than Americans. U.S. CEOs make five times as much as CEOs in Japan, four times as much as CEOs in Spain, three times as much as CEOs in the United Kingdom, France, Italy and the Netherlands, and twice as much as CEOs in Germany and Switzerland.

http://www.ms.foundation.org/wmspage.cfm?parm1=187
<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> You'll get no argument from me on this one. CEO's do make too much. </font color>

Deeman

Qtec
01-09-2006, 10:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Wrong. You have stated it here plenty, that the poor will pay for this war. <hr /></blockquote>
How many Marines are millionares Ed?
Its the poor that fight wars.
You wont see the son or daughter of the rich elite in Iraq. Not many anyway.
People who are poor wont make any money out of this war, but there are many who will. War is good for buisness, especially when you are in the Arms or Oil industry.

The Govt says it only has 130,000 US personel in Iraq but there are 25,000 private security personel working on contract, maybe more. Hired guns, some making $100,000 a month. Not bad money considering that the Marine makes only $3,000/4,000!
It doesnt make economic sense now does it?
It does make political sense tho, ie less casualties [ officially ] and no need for the draft!
Despite what you think, its a FACT, that most people who are unemployed dont want to be. Granted, there is a small % who dont want a regular job but they dont represent the majority.
Maybe if the Govt would spend more money in getting these people back into the workforce instead of spending billions on imaginary threats which just happened to make GW's buddies a massive pile of dough.

Did you know that a private security Co actually guards the US Army perimiter in Bahgdad. ie the Green Zone?
Thats right- the US Govt hires them to protect the Army!!!!!!!! I would imagine that its a very dangerous job!


[ QUOTE ]
Oh the rich are getting richer, the rich are getting richer. SO WHAT GAYLE. How does that hurt the poor?
<hr /></blockquote>

If you have individuals, who have so much money that through their influence, can control the will of the Govt, then that is a threat to freedom and the Democratic process.

The man [ GW] who says he represents the 'common' man, wants to give the rich even more money/power and widen the gap even further.!
At the same time when executives are making bizare figures, the worker is told that he hasnt got a pension anymore and he will have to take a pay cut.
Look at the Abramoff case and DeLay. If ever there was an example of greed................!
If you want a voice on Capital Hill, all you need is money and plenty of it.

BTW, If the workers could set THEIR own wages, there wouldnt be such a problem.


Q

pooltchr
01-09-2006, 10:54 AM
Q
If the rich get richer, that does not hurt the poor.
If you take away something from the poor, that hurts the poor.
Nobody is taking anything from the poor. I don't see how this hurts the poor. Accumulating wealth is not a bad thing in this country (at least it didn't used to be!) But if the government takes away more and more of what you can accumulate, you become less motivated to accumulate any wealth.
I don't see why this concept is so hard for liberals to understand.
Steve

Gayle in MD
01-09-2006, 11:11 AM
Once again, you have saved me from having to answer the post from Steve. And let's also not forget, that the tax cuts on investments don't help the poor much, while chipping away from the deductions allowed on mortgage interest, hurts the poor and middle class much more than it could hurt the rich.

Gayle in Md....I don't expect everything to be fair, just don't like seeing the rich exploit the poor and middle class, and have no conscience about it. When Corporations become too powerful, powerful enough to overly influence government, the results are disasterous, for all but the rich. True Campaign reform, is our only hope.....

eg8r
01-09-2006, 11:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Workplace Fairness: in the news
At the 367 biggest companies last year, average CEO take-home pay was $11.8 million. Average worker pay, meanwhile, was a mere $27460. ... <hr /></blockquote> I did not go to the website to check it out, but I am thinking part of this 11.8 million is not actual take home pay, but includes company stock. Also, interesting to note, is the idea of publishing take home pay instead of actual pay. Why not include the actual pay, it would show a greater disparity and help bolster the author's point. Just interesting that is all, only the author knows their reasoning.

It was definitely eye opening when Merc and Chry merged and you could see the difference in salaries.

eg8r

eg8r
01-09-2006, 11:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't expect everything to be fair, just don't like seeing the rich exploit the poor and middle class, and have no conscience about it. <hr /></blockquote> Once again, here is another statement you cannot back up. I know you won't answer me because of some childish ban but, for God's sake, what the heck are you saying here. It would be nice to see a specific, clear and concise answer on how tax cuts help the rich exploit the poor and middle class.

eg8r

eg8r
01-09-2006, 11:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How many Marines are millionares Ed?
<hr /></blockquote> Q, I have asked a very specific question, and with the absolute extensive amount of lying that caused the question, Gayle should not need you to come back her up. Given your quote above it proves you have no desire to answer anything. I have no intention of answering your little questions that do not have anything to do with what we are talking about.

eg8r

eg8r
01-09-2006, 11:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But if the government takes away more and more of what you can accumulate, you become less motivated to accumulate any wealth.
I don't see why this concept is so hard for liberals to understand. <hr /></blockquote> This is blatantly too tough for Q to understand. Here is a clear example of the mentality of Q... <blockquote><font class="small">Quote imaginative character:</font><hr> People should not sit under apple trees because an apple might fall on their head, don't you agree. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Q unintelligent reply:</font><hr> Don't you think an orange would hurt if it fell on their head? <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> Q does not bother to read and understand anything anyone posts, he is too busy googling his butt off looking for something unrelated.

eg8r

nAz
01-09-2006, 12:22 PM
Ed tax cuts for the top rich 5% do hurt middle and poor Americans, where do you think the Fed gets the money to cover the lost of revenues? Don't they cut federal spending on prescription drugs, student loans and even agriculture support among other things?

BTW if taxes on the rich were raised it will not make them stop from finding other ways to make more money, that is crazy they are too addicted to it. if anything they will find other new loop holes in the tax codes to exploit.

pooltchr
01-09-2006, 01:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Once again, you have saved me from having to answer the post from Steve. And let's also not forget, that the tax cuts on investments don't help the poor much, while chipping away from the deductions allowed on mortgage interest, hurts the poor and middle class much more than it could hurt the rich.

Gayle in Md....I don't expect everything to be fair, just don't like seeing the rich exploit the poor and middle class, and have no conscience about it. When Corporations become too powerful, powerful enough to overly influence government, the results are disasterous, for all but the rich. True Campaign reform, is our only hope..... <hr /></blockquote>

No one, least of all you, Gayle, has answered my question. How would you set up the tax system to be "fair"? And have you read the Fair Tax
Book?
Oh I'm sorry...I see you don't expect taxes to be fair...you would rather increase the burden on the ones who are already paying most of the taxes anyway.
Stupid me!!!

eg8r
01-09-2006, 01:56 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Ed tax cuts for the top rich 5% do hurt middle and poor Americans, where do you think the Fed gets the money to cover the lost of revenues? Don't they cut federal spending on prescription drugs, student loans and even agriculture support among other things?
<hr /></blockquote> The Feds don't get money to cover lost revenue, that is why there is a deficit. None of your examples have been cut with the explanation that they don't have the money for them because of lost "revenue". They are cut for other reasons (dumb or not). I don't discount that programs and freebies get cut, but we are talking about a very specific subject (cut because of tax cut). So, when you mention these things, please give examples of a school loan that was cut because of "revenue" shortage.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW if taxes on the rich were raised it will not make them stop from finding other ways to make more money, that is crazy they are too addicted to it. if anything they will find other new loop holes in the tax codes to exploit. <hr /></blockquote> BTW, no one said it would make them stop. If you had the opportunity to bathe in their money you would be addicted to it also. One thing from the Bible that is hard to argue with is, "Money is the root of all evil". /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif As far as loop holes, whose fault is that? There is nothing wrong with exploiting a loop hole. The problem is with Congress not closing up the loop hole. At least it is legal.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
01-09-2006, 02:22 PM
Tap Tap Tap, thank you Nazie, snazie Nazie, LOL. Good point.

Love,
gayle /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Gayle in MD
01-09-2006, 02:41 PM
Steve, I really don't think that a discussion on the tax structure between you and I would be worthwhile for either of us.

No, I haven't read that particular book.

There are SOOOOOOOOOOOO many many ways in which the rich avoid paying their fair share, even at the ten percent accross the board tax rate, that, believe me, any theory which suggests that the present tax structure is fair to the poor and the middle class is just that, a theory, unproven, and not fair in the least.

Taxation according to ability to pay, atleast to some degree, is a worthwhile adjustment in a society which is raped daily by wealthy CEO's, and billionaires who are gouging and exploiting Americans left and mostly right!

The trickle down theory does not work. It has been proven over and over. The chasm between the rich and the poor only grows greater, and the middle class, more and more, joins the poverty levels. That is my opinion, based on my own studies. These results will be accentuated by the present global economic circumstances, and the influx of illegal aliens, and the outsourcing of American jobs. The middle class and the poor, if they pay the same percentage as the wealthy, can barely get by as it is due to the Corporate greed which is strangling this country, and the right wing economic attack on the middle class.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
01-09-2006, 02:53 PM
Ed, I think the point that Gayle is trying to make, is that while taxes may be fairly proportioned between the wealthy, and the poor......as a proportion of their sustenance income, they are not. I realise the very wealthy also have extra expenses, like immigrant gardeners, etc.....but if you give overly generous tax cut to the super-rich, then to make up for the needed revenues, the base rate for the poor must be set "high".
I don't have examples either, but I thought I read where many programs have been cut back.
And I did read somewhere (and I'll try to find it again) where the President is not required to fit into the budget, the amount that the war is costing.....so the actual military costs estimates are equal to a "peacetime" expense.
If that is true....and if it isn't true.....we probably went another billion in debt, by the time I typed this out.
It might be tax cuts for us.....but what does it hold for future generations?....Are we just passing the debt, and interest, along to them.....in order to give this admin the semblance of something accomplished????

pooltchr
01-09-2006, 02:58 PM
Gayle,
The really poor do not pay ANY taxes.
The middle class pay a smaller percentage of their income.
The rich pay a higher percentage of their income.
Seems like you already have what you want....you just want MORE! You want to take more away from the wealthy and redistrubute it to the poor and middle class.
From each according to his ability...to each according to his need.....Isn't that the basis for Communism?
Steve

wolfdancer
01-09-2006, 03:00 PM
That is blatently unfair.....we all know that one of the most intelligent men, ever....got hit in the head with an apple
(Pm me, if you don't know who) and both Q and I know you can't get oranges from an apple tree....what, you think we're blondes?

Gayle in MD
01-09-2006, 03:13 PM
You're most welcome, and let me know what you think of it after you read it.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in Md,

wolfdancer
01-09-2006, 03:19 PM
Steve, "if the rich get richer....." that's not true....how do you think Mr Gates made all his money?....off of poor folk like me, with his stop-gap upgrades to Win 3.1.... My computer still hasn't recovered from his little millennium joke.
and then there are the books....I just finished "Mastering Win95", and by the time I finish XP....."Longhorn" will be a thing of the past.

Gayle in MD
01-09-2006, 03:22 PM
Sorry Steve, I am not trying to be disagreeable, but what you are stating is, IMHO, totally false.

The middle class is carrying the burden, period.

The poor, are being hurt because their opportunities for work are gone, due to the fact that aliens have driven down their wages. This false statement that they are taking jobs that Americans don't want, is simply false and just another sound byte promoted by the right. I didn't see any Mexican families standing out in front of the coal mine, they were Americans. Americans will do whatever they have to do to get by.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
01-09-2006, 03:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Sorry Steve, I am not trying to be disagreeable, but what you are stating is, IMHO, totally false.

The middle class is carrying the burden, period. <font color="blue"> The middle class carries part of the burden, What do you want? That only the rich pay taxes? Where is for you to determine what is my fair share of taxes? </font color>

The poor, are being hurt because their opportunities for work are gone, due to the fact that aliens have driven down their wages. <font color="blue"> What? The works not gone, it just the Hispanics doing it. Why, no one else will do these jobs. </font color> This false statement that they are taking jobs that Americans don't want, is simply false and just another sound byte promoted by the right. <font color="blue"> When was the last time Americans lined up to pick fruit? After Bush was elected? </font color> I didn't see any Mexican families standing out in front of the coal mine, they were Americans. <font color="blue"> That's because you can make $60K in a coal mine, not because Americnas will do anything to get by. </font color> Americans will do whatever they have to do to get by. <font color="blue"> No, they will not. You can't outsource mowing lawns and picking grapes and you certainly can't maintain any sort of free enterprise ecconomy by paying these people $25 an hour for these lower rung jobs. They have tried this in Europe. Do you know what their unemployment rate is? Do you know where they get their workers? Do you know what they are facing now in terms of social costs and competitiveness in the world market? Ask Q what happens in germany when an emigrant comes there, works for 12 months and goes on the dole. </font color>

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
01-09-2006, 03:48 PM
Gayle, a couple of links:
web page (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45366-2005Apr11.html)

web page (http://www.sptimes.com/2004/09/12/Columns/In_Bush_s_America__ri.shtml)

web page (http://www.paulsjusticepage.com/elite-deviance/reiman.htm)

web page (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=764676)

And my favorite:
web page (http://talkleft.com/new_archives/006792.html)

wolfdancer
01-09-2006, 03:56 PM
Dee, you're right on brother.....we gots to reclaim these high income fruit-picking jobs, back from these illegal immigrants.
I'm not sure I can bend down that far, but I think Ceser Chavez got the short ho outlawed, although I still see a couple every now and then.

pooltchr
01-09-2006, 05:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Steve, "if the rich get richer....." that's not true....how do you think Mr Gates made all his money?....off of poor folk like me, with his stop-gap upgrades to Win 3.1.... My computer still hasn't recovered from his little millennium joke.
and then there are the books....I just finished "Mastering Win95", and by the time I finish XP....."Longhorn" will be a thing of the past.
<hr /></blockquote>

Wolf,
It's your choice to be a customer of Mr Gates. There's always a MAC! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

eg8r
01-10-2006, 06:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The middle class is carrying the burden, period. <hr /></blockquote> This is a flat out lie. I am sorry but there is no other way of stating it.

The top 5% pay something like 75% of the taxes. They are hardly middle class and they are definitely the group carrying the burden.

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't see any Mexican families standing out in front of the coal mine, they were Americans. Americans will do whatever they have to do to get by.
<hr /></blockquote> I am willing to bet you did not see any because you did not want to. Just because your eyes did not fall on something you did not want to see does not mean what you don't want to see is not there.

eg8r

eg8r
01-10-2006, 06:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Ed, I think the point that Gayle is trying to make, is that while taxes may be fairly proportioned between the wealthy, and the poor......as a proportion of their sustenance income, they are not. <hr /></blockquote> Well then why is she making that point, it is not what I am asking about. I am asking how the rich getting richer hurts the poor. That is the lie that keeps getting thrown around. You see the only way the tax cut would hurt the middle and lower brackets is if the tax cut went to the rich and a tax increase went to the middle and poor to make up for the break the rich got. THAT DID NOT HAPPEN. If you (not you personally) are going to make some asinine statement like tax cuts hurt the poor, or the rich getting richer hurt the poor, then come out with some real examples. The fact of the matter is that the statement is just that asinine.

The middle and lower brackets are only paying about 5 - 10% of the overall taxes. Life is not fair and if you were told it was then they lied to you. Some people make more money than you and I do. You don't need to go through life worrying about how someone else excelled better, achieved more, etc. Go through life being happy you are able to put food on the table, clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Don't worry because if you can't the Government will do it for you. Either way, there will always be someone richer than you and you can't do anything about it.

I don't think you guys hear how crazy you sound. Let me give some cliff notes of the left...Screw the rich they can afford it. Tax their butts off. Give me a higher minimum wage. In this day and age we should be getting $10/hr to bag groceries. Oh look the rich are moving their business overseas, or across the borders. They are giving our jobs away. Screw the evil rich, we finally get a high paying job and they give it away while making a sound business decision (oops that last part will never escape a liberals mouth /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

eg8r

eg8r
01-10-2006, 06:54 AM
[ QUOTE ]
what, you think we're blondes? <hr /></blockquote> I would never think that for fear of retaliation from the blondes. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Gayle in MD
01-10-2006, 07:27 AM
LOL, ... Well, you know, I am just a liar, then I wonder why the right doesn't love me LOL.

If people were more aware of the huge gap between what the rich and upper upper middle end up paying in tax, and what they are supposed to pay, we could have a discussion.

The minimum wage level in this country is a joke. Illegal aliens have driven down the prices of jobs that were once available to uneducated disadvantaged people. It is a myth that most of jobs filled by aliens are jobs thst Americans won't do. Americans used to do them, until they were filled by illegal aliens who would do them for less. They aren't all fruit picking jobs, as those from the right seem to think. One only has to take a good look at where the spending cuts were to realize that once the republicans have run up enough outrageous debt, the programs that get cut are those which are beneficial to the poor, lower middle class, the old and the sick. If this is economic policies with social concsience, I don't think we would have old people eating dog food to pay for thier drugs.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
01-10-2006, 07:30 AM
sorry, correction...Lou Dobs, "Exporting America" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

pooltchr
01-10-2006, 08:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> LOL, ... Well, you know, I am just a liar, then I wonder why the right doesn't love me LOL.


Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle, We DO love you!!! It's the kind of things you say that help prevent democrats from winning elections!
Thanks for all you do to help the cause!
Steve

wolfdancer
01-10-2006, 09:08 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you guys hear how crazy you sound. Let me give some cliff notes of the left...Screw the rich they can afford it. Tax their butts off. Give me a higher minimum wage. In this day and age we should be getting $10/hr to bag groceries. Oh look the rich are moving their business overseas, or across the borders. They are giving our jobs away. Screw the evil rich, we finally get a high paying job and they give it away while making a sound business decision (oops that last part will never escape a liberals mouth ). <hr /></blockquote>
Well, you were doing fine in the first part of your post "not you personally".....and now it's "how crazy you sound"
OK.......but maybe, to paraphrase your reply to Gayle, you are only reading what you think you see.
I have nothing against the super rich, except that I'd like to join them, and so far they have refused my application. I do think they are in a position to take advantage of certain tax breaks, not available to the working class.
And my only other comment re the rich Vs the poor, the working class poor, even the middle class......it's not a level playing field for the next generations.....pretty obvious, that note.
Actually with statutories, fringe benefits, etc....I believe Safeway's bag boy cost's are $10 an hour. And you can't fault anyone for wanting to make more $$....or can you???
I don't think it's the bag boy's jobs that are being farmed out though.....
There were lots of good paying jobs in the chip making industry that went "south" There are now many other skilled jobs being lost as well.
It's not just assembly line ones that we should be concerned about.
It may be a sound business decision, as you state to farm out these jobs.......but with the high cost of living in the good old USA.....when enough of these jobs have been lost, a downward economic spiral could occur, the likes of which would make 1929 look like a market correction.
People here are mortgaged to the hilt, and once the mortgages go into default,and the R.E. market collapses then the banks began to........
Maybe that's a doomsday scenario.....but
This liberal left crap that you label people with........"liberal lefts" are not the enemy....they are as believing in the values, the ideals of this country, as the God-fearing right.
You are mentally grouping everybody that somehow doesn't buy into Bush's bulls**t economics, and his war, or the fact that they support some programs like medicare, SS, that are distasteful to the ultra right( sometimes you guys remind me of the Waffen-SS....and just a little more lean to the right, the SS-Totenkopfverbande)......you are erroneously writing them off, as wanting some kind of free ride through life, at your expense.
You sound like a nice guy.....but with your "clockwork orange" thinking....your "it's us Vs them, and since we have God on our side....."
anyway, it hard to have a meaningful discussion, since you approach everything with this smug, superior, I'm so right, and you're so wrong attitude; what's the sense of even trying?........if I never respond to another post of yours......it would be because I'm tired of trying to justify any of my beliefs.....when I think you guys...with your "let them eat cake" mentality....should be defending yourselves for going against the very principles that this country was founded on.If any group is "unAmerican" in their beliefs, its the ultra right...of which I suspect, you are a card carrying member, in good standing.
Please do not respond......it'll only be BS....and the only people it will appeal to are Steve, and Dee...although I suspect that Dee has more of a care for what is happening, what is going wrong with this country.....then your "ruling class".....have a nice day....a nice life.....
Actually, I'm surprised that you respond to the "crazy sounding" posts of the liberal left here.......worried??? or just trying to do the Christian thing and educate them
("Father forgive them for they know not what they do")?????

wolfdancer
01-10-2006, 10:27 AM
Gayle, here's my Rx to once again be able to read and enjoy this board.....carefully avoid any political posts by Ed8r and Steve, read Dee's with a grain of salt.....they are all nice guys I'm sure, but we'll never be on the same page, and discussion is useless....it's just argumentative....does more harm then good.
At my age I shouldn't be so concerned.....but I worry that we have morgaged the future of this country.....and might never be able to service the debt.

eg8r
01-10-2006, 11:24 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Gayle, here's my Rx to once again be able to read and enjoy this board.....carefully avoid any political posts by Ed8r and Steve, read Dee's with a grain of salt.....they are all nice guys I'm sure, but we'll never be on the same page, and discussion is useless....it's just argumentative....does more harm then good.
<hr /></blockquote> That's right wolf, every time someone has a different opinion, you should just put your hands over your ears a mumble loudly so as to fake like you don't hear anything. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
01-10-2006, 11:38 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have nothing against the super rich, except that I'd like to join them, and so far they have refused my application. I do think they are in a position to take advantage of certain tax breaks, not available to the working class. <hr /></blockquote> So, which tax breaks would these be? And this working class B.S, what is that. You have to work to become rich. It does not just get handed to you.

[ QUOTE ]
Actually with statutories, fringe benefits, etc....I believe Safeway's bag boy cost's are $10 an hour. And you can't fault anyone for wanting to make more $$....or can you???
<hr /></blockquote> Isn't that a twist on words. They don't want to "make" any more money, as that would imply they would have to work harder. No, they want to be given more money for the same job they are currently doing.

[ QUOTE ]
There were lots of good paying jobs in the chip making industry that went "south" There are now many other skilled jobs being lost as well. <hr /></blockquote> Lost? Where did they go? Did high cost of business cause the business to make strategic business moves? You said it above, you can't fault them for wanting to make more money.

[ QUOTE ]
It may be a sound business decision, as you state to farm out these jobs.......but with the high cost of living in the good old USA.....when enough of these jobs have been lost, a downward economic spiral could occur, the likes of which would make 1929 look like a market correction. <hr /></blockquote> Possibly, or the Government can change their ways to do the right things to draw/entice business back to the US. Why the doom and gloom always?

[ QUOTE ]
This liberal left crap that you label people with........"liberal lefts" are not the enemy....they are as believing in the values, the ideals of this country, as the God-fearing right.
<hr /></blockquote> You are right, they are just labels. A label is used to identify a group.

[ QUOTE ]
You are mentally grouping everybody that somehow doesn't buy into Bush's bulls**t economics <hr /></blockquote> C'mon, do you honestly believe these labels came about since the election of W? I don't believe you are so naive so quit acting like it.

[ QUOTE ]
You sound like a nice guy.....but with your "clockwork orange" thinking....your "it's us Vs them, and since we have God on our side....."
<hr /></blockquote> I have no idea what you are talking about? Who was mentioning religion? Are you making this up as your go or do you really believe this crap?

[ QUOTE ]
if I never respond to another post of yours......it would be because I'm tired of trying to justify any of my beliefs.....when I think you guys...with your "let them eat cake" mentality....should be defending yourselves for going against the very principles that this country was founded on. <hr /></blockquote> So, which of these principles do you think you are defending?

[ QUOTE ]
Please do not respond <hr /></blockquote> Since you ask nicely, I will kindly decline. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'm surprised that you respond to the "crazy sounding" posts of the liberal left here.......worried??? or just trying to do the Christian thing and educate them
("Father forgive them for they know not what they do")?????
<hr /></blockquote> There you go with the Christian stuff again. Yes I am a Christian but I don't remember throwing that in anyone's face, why don't you stop doing it.

eg8r

Chopstick
01-10-2006, 02:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
I have nothing against the super rich, except that I'd like to join them, and so far they have refused my application. I do think they are in a position to take advantage of certain tax breaks, not available to the working class. <hr /></blockquote> So, which tax breaks would these be? <font color="blue">Sorry Eg, but Wolf is right about this one. I saw the information a few years ago. I don't remember all the details but special issues of Municipal bonds with millions of dollars being the minimum buy in comes to mind. I'm sure we could Qoogle it up if we tried.</font color>

And this working class B.S, what is that. You have to work to become rich. It does not just get handed to you.<font color="blue"> So Paris Hilton worked for her money? I'll bet she doesn't even pay 10K in taxes. Teresa Heinz Kerry only pays 12K and you can just bet that if Kerry got elected and changed the tax law to "get the rich" there would be a shelter somewhere to protect their own money. </font color>

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
01-11-2006, 06:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolf:</font><hr> I do think they are in a position to take advantage of certain tax breaks, not available to the working class. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> So, which tax breaks would these be? [ QUOTE ]
Sorry Eg, but Wolf is right about this one. I saw the information a few years ago. I don't remember all the details but special issues of Municipal bonds with millions of dollars being the minimum buy in comes to mind. I'm sure we could Qoogle it up if we tried. <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote> Not to be argumentative (although it sounds that way because I am forcing the particulars to be taken at face value), but your example is still offered to the poor, they are just not in a position to take advantage of them. I understand what you are trying to say, but when you get right down to it, nothing is being offered to only one group and not the other.

By the way, those considered "rich" are the champions of the working class.

eg8r

DickLeonard
01-11-2006, 07:20 AM
EG8r George just thinks the Investment Companies can rape the small investor with no one to fight for them... At least not in the Republican party.####

DickLeonard
01-11-2006, 07:30 AM
DEeman I watch the call in show on NPR in the morning with Brian Lamb and when asked to give his opinion he replies he can't give an opinion. So I know that is a truly left wing program.####

Gayle in MD
01-11-2006, 08:17 AM
My dear friend, I am so glad to hear that you are going to take measures which will allow you to once again enjoy posting your opinions without being ridiculed and attacked by someone like Ed, who wants to degrade anyone who doesn't agree with him, insult their intelligence, and then demand that they educate him regarding his total lack of knowledge on the issues.

I spent the other night, insomnia raging over my concerns regarding Allito's nomination to the Supreme Court, reading some of my posts from the past. The thread on abortion was particularly interesting. It was during that thread, that I realized that this board is contaminated by sexist, misogynistic, evangelistic, right-wing dictators, cut from the same cloth as our lying disengenuous president.

While it is not my nature to exclude anyone, I made a decision to stop reading Ed's posts, since his particular posting style, is the most insulting of anyone, and his wrath and lack of respect for others who don't agree with him, so pervasive in his words that I found it impossible to have any kind of intercourse of any meaning with him, so I understand why you have come to this decision.

What I find so interesting about the right here, is that they mirror the same dictator like, anachronistic, sexist, homophobic, misogynistic views which George Bush, and Mr. Allito, BTW, will be known for as history proceeds. Their hatred for, and misunderstanding of the poverty strickened, and their total lack of any ability to feel empathy for the unfortunate, while adoring of the very RICH people in our government who wish to wield their power, unchecked, and unquestioned, over women, gays, the poor and poverty strickened, even to the point of stepping into family decisions to force people to abide by their opinions regarding what is right and wrong, as they did in the Terry Scheibo case. Their wish to arrange for the middle class to bear the financial burden in our society so that their unfounded admiration for the rich, and their need to grab some sort of voyueristic pleasure in their lifestyles, along with their distaste for the humanitarrian philosophies of the Democratic Party, renders them intellectually compromised in any attempt they might make to discuss the issues of the day.

When people like Ed find that they have to get off thousands of dollars a year to buy a decent education for their children, as I did when raising my daughter, when they find that George Bush has diluted our privacy rights, and compromised our freedom, and that the divisions among Americans, created by the Republican right's need to place into law their personal opinions of what is right and wrong, reaching into the very fabric of family life, and private personal situations, yes, when they finally wake up to the damage, it will be far too late. America, as we have known it over these past forty to fifty years, will be long gone.

When Ed finds that he has to relinquish his home to a shopping center, through the right-wing, rich man's definition of eminate domain, "Whatever is good for the rich, must also be good for the nation," he will understand why we think as we do.

When he finds that his wife can no longer buy birth control pills so that he may plan, according to his personal economic situation, when to have a child, he will understand the damage which can be done to a society by self righteous, GOD FEARING right-wing dictators.

If you have time, and want a good laugh, read back through the thread about abortion, in which I suggested that instead, why not have mandatory vasectomy as an alternative to abortion. It was pretty funny when the sexist men on this board were exposed to the idea of government forcing them to do with their bodies something which they did not want to have done, or to take part in, OMG, they were outraged! LMAO... Some people on here didn't even know that birth control pills, the IUD, and such, are also abortion.

Bottom line, we are not dealing with libertarians on here. We are dealing with people who take anything, and everything that George Bush says and does at face value. His nominees for the Supreme Court, both Catholic, both placed in an effort to once again create a biblically grounded effort to degrade and dictate to women, will more than likely destroy the progress that women have struggled to acheive for generations. I hope they can find a way to make it up in some way to their children, and to their daughters particularly, that by buying into the right-wing anachronistic philosophies of the Evangelical, Right-Wing, God Fearing, terrorist fearing religious fanatics, such as George Bush, not only have many lost their lives fighting unwinnable wars, but that as a nation, we lost our freedom, and our right to privacy, and that women will not be dictated to by men, no matter how many laws ignorant, religious, hypocritical wealthy men pass.

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
01-11-2006, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
this board is contaminated by sexist, misogynistic, evangelistic, right-wing dictators, cut from the same cloth as our lying disengenuous president. <hr /></blockquote>

I'm so glad to see you have cut down on the name calling.
Steve

wolfdancer
01-11-2006, 11:53 AM
Nobody is trying to deny the rich's right to be rich......but if you don't think there are investment incentives, and writeoffs in the tax code that would only apply to one with a more then substantial income......then you are probably paying too much yourselves on taxes.
As i may have written before, there was a doctor, whose farming experience probably consisted of having an "American Gothic" poster in his waiting room.....he invested in rural property, got paid not to grow cotton, and also paid to plant trees. When i tried to claim the same rights for my back yard, i was denied.

Gayle in MD
01-11-2006, 02:40 PM
Thanks Q, again, your post says it far better than I could.

Gayle

Gayle in MD
01-11-2006, 02:52 PM
FYI, it's the kinds of things I say, that over half the country is saying, and the same things which will run the Republican Culture of Corruption, out of D.C., that is if we can keep the republicans from pulling the same tricks they pulled in Florida and Ohio.

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
01-11-2006, 02:57 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Their wish to arrange for the middle class to bear the financial burden in our society <hr /></blockquote> Uh oh, there you go again with a statment you cannot back up. The middle class has not been asked or forced to bear any burden that is not already at least 80% funded by the rich. These posts of yours are absolutely inaccurate but you are persistant. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This is the first post of yours that I have read completely in some time. I usually see the same rant over and over. However, I saw my name a few times so I thought I would humour you. Well, suffice to say, nothing new was brought up and your total gloomy world was spit up once again.

[ QUOTE ]
When Ed finds that he has to relinquish his home to a shopping center, through the right-wing, rich man's definition of eminate domain, "Whatever is good for the rich, must also be good for the nation," he will understand why we think as we do.
<hr /></blockquote> Talk about hilarious. This is a great example of why we are excited about Alito. You see, it was a liberal judge that absolutely screwed those families out of their house and land to give to the developer. Sorry Gayle, but it was your guy that screwed those people and I don't care how you choose to twist it. The fact of the matter is, the liberal Supreme Court Judges, stole those peoples homes and land.

I am just happy Alito will be filling the seat keeping out some liberal-no-good-for-the-future-of-America wannabe judge.

eg8r

eg8r
01-11-2006, 03:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
As i may have written before, there was a doctor, whose farming experience probably consisted of having an "American Gothic" poster in his waiting room.....he invested in rural property, got paid not to grow cotton, and also paid to plant trees. When i tried to claim the same rights for my back yard, i was denied <hr /></blockquote> Well, because you were denied, it just makes it truth doesn't it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif By the way, you are probably comparing apples to apples aren't you, I would hope, if that is true, you must have one heck of a backyard.

Back to the question (probably worded a little differently by now) how does a tax break for the rich burden the middle/poor?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
01-11-2006, 03:17 PM
Saying that our kids won't have the same economic opportunities that we had is putting the situation rather mildly, don't you think?

IMO, the free education that our kids in this country have been offered over the last forty years hasn't been much of an education IMO. Have you seen the statistics recently on what is happening to our education system. I certainly wouldn't have put my daughter in the public school system. One of the biggest problems with our educational system is low pay for teachers. The second biggest problem, currently, anyway, is the No Child Left Behind Act, which is a joke, and also, the funding cuts are such that in many counties, parents buy supplies to keep teachers from having to dip into their own pockets, and Maryland is certainly not a poor state.

Why oh why do you twist my words. I never said that EVERY misfortune that comes anyone's way is caused by the government.

Then, you refer to students that graduate that cannot read, well hello, wasn't that just what I was saying in the first place? The public educational system sucks.

I don't suppose unwed motherhood rates have anything to do with relegious philosophy, religious philosophy sure didn't keep the Catholic priests from practicing pedophilia,... could it be, it's just a natural need for, and curiosity about, sexual gratification, and no knowledge of Birth control?

I never said that personal accountability is not a necessity in welfare programs, please stop twisting what I say.

I don't think I have ever mentioned abortion clinic bombers. My huge gripe with the religious right is that they expect their Personal Opinions to be made into laws. They are ignorant, and they are dictatorial, infact, the religious right is a very dangerous group, they are the ones which the right claims to be Bush's greatest base, aren't they, and just look at how many people have died since he's been in office....they threaten this country, the separation of church and state, the constitution, and our freedoms, in many ways, not the least of which is women's rights.

Any other questions friend????

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
01-12-2006, 11:08 AM
Steve, once and for all, definitions, aimed generally at groups, do not fit the description of Name calling You have made such a monumental issue of this, blown it completely out of proportion, IMO, and all I can say to you is this. If you are going to read an internet forum, don't expect everyone to post according to your liking. Your posts are offensive to me at times, also, but I don't beat a dead horse to death over what offends me about your posts. You make issues over non issues with me, such as jumping to point our a mispelling, and other things. When you do post to me directly, it is usually sarcastically. That's ok, and your name calling posts about democrats, that's ok, and all you guys have a double standard going here. You can post insulting things about women, you can make others the brunt of your jokes, but just let me do the same, OMG, LOL....bottom line, if you don't like my posts, don't read them. You can't dictate to others what they can write. Post your side of things, your views, and hey, have at it, but don't try to dictate what others can write. Nothing I write about, generally speaking, is aimed at you personally, and this last post is out of some frustration that you guys seem to think that you can post pornographic pictures of women, have a good old boy laugh on women at their expense, single me out with jokes about the definition of my name, hey, I let it roll off my back, what choice do I have. I've been called plenty of names by you, Ed, and Dee, because you didn't want me to say, "Little Bushy" "The Chimp" lol, for heavens sake, you take me too seriously. If you knew me, you'd know, I don't take this board seriously. I do like to jerk your collective chains occasionally, but don't try and tell me that you guys don't do the same thing to me, LOL, hey, it's all good, just don't take it too seriously, OK?

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
01-12-2006, 01:15 PM
Gayle,
I have never posted anything that was intended to be aimed at you...just at some of your misguided ideas. I don't post pornography, make jokes about your name, or any of the other things "you guys" are supposedly doing. And I don't appreciated being accuesd of it.
The only thing I have ever called you is "liberal" and if that offends you, I'm sorry, but it fits. You can call me conservative...it fits. Beyond that...well...I see no need to go there. Your history of posting speaks for itself.
Steve

Gayle in MD
01-12-2006, 02:19 PM
Hey, Steve, I'm not going to bother going through the archives to refresh your memory, but you have really lost it if you think you haven't been rude and sarcastic to me. "Misguided ideas" isn't that condescending???you don't think that is rude? LOL....however, I am not telling you how to post, just remending you that you should not assume that everything I write is about you personally. If I post something about the reilgious right, or republicans, or misogynists, or homophobics, what makes you think I am speaking of you personally?????I am writing about politics, unless I mention the people on here specifically, which I have done accasionally, I admit it, but it is usually after you guys get mad over my personal views. Let's just say, I have seen you mis-spell words, for example, but never had the urge to jump in behind you and correct you in public. My Mother taught me better than that before I was three years old. Your posts to me are always sarcastic, just like ed's which are not only sarcastic, but very rude, that's why I don't read Ed's posts anymore. I am just making a suggestion. If my posts irritate you so much, and you make it abundantly clear constantly that they do, then why the hell do you keep on reading them? Is that a fair question?

Gayle

wolfdancer
01-13-2006, 01:00 AM
I'm not sure why you keep asking me this same stupid question....since I didn't make the original claim..... call the local college, and ask to speak to an economics professer......tell him you were out campaigning for President Bonzo the day they taught finances ....however if the sum of revenues collected could be simplified to the contributions of the very rich and the rest of the tax paying public....unless you also are reducing the amount of tax revenues needed ...then.....
works for me.....next question?
Why is this so important to you...since we are operating the country at such a deficit that doubling the contributions from everybody...might not be enough.
I'd be more worried about the deficit, then about any of your rich friends being dunned for excessive, or even fair taxes.
If you want a caste system Ed...move to India....where the poor are left to fend for themselves......and are not this tax burden on the rich....you're beating a dead horse with your incessant demands that your question be answered....I don't give a *** how much you think that the ***'g rich should be taxed....or if they're getting ***'d by their tax burden, and here's why....they can afford to get *****, we can't.
Bill Gates makes more money while sitting on the toilet, then I made in my whole life...and he can afford to have somebody wipe his butt afterwards...we sometimes couldn't afford toilet paper. When you have more money then you can possibly spend, and have bought everything that there is to buy....it's hard for someone living in the back seat of their non running car, to understand why you need writeoffs, when he's paying taxes on min wages.
You want to champion their **** cause...buy yourself a ***** soapbox and stand on the *** corner with a God D**n microphone....and hope some *** left wing nut case whose job has been outsourced, doesn't get offended.....
The trickle down theory, by the way, can best be explained by this......after the meat has been stripped off , we get the bone, and get boned in the process.

eg8r
01-13-2006, 04:29 AM
[ QUOTE ]
you're beating a dead horse with your incessant demands that your question be answered.... <hr /></blockquote> This is so true of the Dem party, a dead horse. When those on this board make a claim I just like to make sure they can back it up. Somewhere along the lines, I have not gone back to find where, you joined in and agreed with what they were saying, so I asked you the same thing. I will be honest, I have not been nearly as incessant asking for proof as the left has been at passing on the lies.

[ QUOTE ]
You want to champion their **** cause...buy yourself a ***** soapbox and stand on the *** corner with a God D**n microphone....and hope some *** left wing nut case whose job has been outsourced, doesn't get offended.....
<hr /></blockquote> I can see someone's blood pressure rising.

eg8r

wolfdancer
01-13-2006, 02:10 PM
why don't we put a stop to this....Ill agree that the tax loopholes, investment incentives, and creative accounting methods that allow for huge tax reductions by the super rich, are actually beneficial to the working poor. This allows the rich more disposable income, and in turn they can pass on more table scraps to the economically disadvantaged.
Now about the war fueled deficit, and the threat that the U.S. dollar could be seriously devalued.....

DickLeonard
01-13-2006, 04:18 PM
Deeman your post is to llllloooooonnnnngggggg but I have seen the $90,000 dollar trailers that an individual could buy for $10,000. ####