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shakeybake
01-06-2006, 05:03 AM
Who introduced this rule to the pro's? Was Allen Hopkins involved with it's formulation? When was it first used?

Billy_Bob
01-06-2006, 05:39 AM
Here is a reference to "Ball in Hand" for 1901 Croquet rules.

http://www.mauicroquetclub.org/history/1901LawsOfCroquet/Page4-5.htm

Then a Croquet historical timeline which mentions...
1351 Royal pardons in France describe nobles playing Ground Billards.
1450 Tapestry shows people playing Paille-Maille.
1600's Louis XIV played Jeu de Mail at Versailles, France.
Charles II of England and his courtiers played Pall Mall at St. James's Park in London.
1717 Lauthier printed rules of Pall Mall
http://www.mauicroquetclub.org/history/index.htm

Pall Mall rules..
http://www.mauicroquetclub.org/history/PallMallRules.htm

Picture from the School of Recreation 1710
(Note "Croquet" like hoops on table)
http://www.cuesnviews.co.uk/normanclare/picbilliards1710.htm

Scott Lee
01-06-2006, 07:05 AM
shakeybake...There seems to have always been ball-in-hand rules, with the CB in the kitchen. I believe that the "anywhere on the table" aspect began being used extensively in the late 70's, and early 80's, with the development of the amateur league systems, like APA (Busch then), Valley and BCA. I know Terry Bell & Larry Hubbart (APA founders) were behind an effort to standardize rules between amateurs and pros. Don't know if Hopkins was part of that or not. He was president of the men's pro organization for a year, during that time. Somebody else might have some more detailed information.

Scott Lee

Deeman3
01-06-2006, 07:12 AM
Didn't Randy G. have something to with formalizing and standardizing the rules? I've heard he did the Texas Express rules as well as served on the orginal BCA Rules committee. I bet he has a pretty good idea of the origins of ball in hand.

Deeman

randyg
01-06-2006, 07:15 AM
I slightly remember our BCA Rules Committee in about 1975-77
voting to use BIH with the upcoming National 8-Ball Championships.....SPF-randyg

Texas Express 9-Ball Rules took BIH and placed it anyplace on the table.

Scott Lee
01-06-2006, 07:35 AM
Randy...Did the pros start using b-i-h when the PBTA hooked up with the APA? That was sometime in the 80's, I think...

Scott ~ has 'sometimer's disease' /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

randyg
01-06-2006, 08:20 AM
I think Ray Martin & the PPPA had some form of BIH in the late 70's. I have sleap since then.....SPF-randyg

Deeman3
01-06-2006, 09:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> I think Ray Martin &amp; the PPPA had some form of BIH in the late 70's. I have sleap since then.....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> It's gotta be a bitch getting old and senile. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif I wouldn't know, myself. Where am I?</font color>

Deeman

randyg
01-06-2006, 11:10 AM
What a joy to be old &amp; senile. Every day is a new adventure....SPF-randyg

SpiderMan
01-06-2006, 12:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote randyg:</font><hr> What a joy to be old &amp; senile. Every day is a new adventure....SPF-randyg <hr /></blockquote>

Someday we may all be using that "old" pickup line "Hey, baby - do I come here often?".

SpiderMan

Cornerman
01-06-2006, 12:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote shakeybake:</font><hr> Who introduced this rule to the pro's? Was Allen Hopkins involved with it's formulation? When was it first used? <hr /></blockquote>I use my collection of BCA rulebooks as historical evidence. That is, if it's in the BCA rulebooks, then we can reasonably assume somebody was playing it that way other than the BCA administrators.

Full table ball-in-hand has been around for a long time in one form or another.

The two-foul, full-table ball-in-hand for 9-ball is mentioned in my 1977 rulebook. That's how I first learned to play 9-ball (the push out or roll out).

The one foul full-table ball-in-hand may have been introduced at a 9-ball event in the early 80's (Ritchie Florence, $3000 entry maybe?). It's a full rule (not an optional rule) in my 1985 BCA rulebook.

8-ball seems to have switched to one-foul ball-in-hand as an option some time in the early 80's as well. I have videos of an 8-ball tourney from 1986 where the pros are playing full-table ball-in-hand with no mention of it being "new rules."

When the APA started, it was started by two professional players Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart. Again, I think it's safe to say that whatever professional rules Larry and Terry were playing at the time were what they incorporated into their new APA league. That is, the APA used whatever the professionals used for rules. And the rules then included no call shot, full-table ball-in-hand, 8-ball on the break wins. That's still how the APA rules are today.

Note: I am not saying that the APA had anything to do with developing the professional rules. The rules were already being used. The APA simply used existing rules.

Fred

Deeman3
01-06-2006, 01:33 PM
O.K Good enough. Now that noone stuck their head out and claimed to know exactly when full table ball in hand was started we can say:

Fred Agnir, Spiderman (Marty) and Deeman were shooting a not so friendly game in 1972, in Memphis, and Dee says, "Hey, just for S &amp; G plus a place in the CCB hall of fame, let's start using the whole friggin' table for ball in hand. I mean, we already climb up on the table for big shots instead of using a bridge. Besides, that Randy Gottleieebbeerortwo guy out in Texas will pick up on it soon enough and who wants to let him have all the credit." The other parties agreed and history was set. They all agreed, as well, they wouldn't let that snotty nosed Chopstick in on it.

Therefore, history is created.

Deeman /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
since Louie Roberts didn't live in Memphis yet, I couldn't include him in this conspiracy.

Fran Crimi
01-06-2006, 01:55 PM
Yes, I believe he was. It started back when 9 Ball was overtaking 14.1 as the pro tour game. I remember there were a few 9 Ball events played with the old rules, one-shot shootout, but the matches were taking too long. Hopkins had the foresight to see that bogging down matches with push outs and spotting balls was going to be a problem. Thus, "tournament rules" were implemented. I don't know if he specifically created them himself---he may have--- but I remember him being a proponent of them. This was also an important step in tv coverage as it brought more excitement to the game for spectators and kept the matches moving along.

It's indeed possible that this was happening simultaneously around the country but I can tell you to the best of my memory, that's what was happening on the East Coast at the time.

Fran

Cueless Joey
01-06-2006, 04:56 PM
Let's ask Wendy. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I always thought it was when Texas Express rule was started.
Before that, they could push out anywhere on the table or have the other guy reshoot.

randyg
01-06-2006, 05:23 PM
No, we had played some BIH before Tx Express Rules.

When the National 9-Ball Tour and the McDermott 9-Ball Tour took the Nation by storm, BIH and 3-Foul became routine. Longer races, quicker matches made bigger fields. I don't think we started the BIH but we standardized BIH any place. Texas Express Rules became the norm.

I remember many 9-Ball tournaments in the USA where I had to explain BIH &amp; 3-Foul before every Tournament.

As far as 8-Ball goes I will check with National TD Gary Benson on when he started using BIH. I think he will tell me 1977.....SPF-randyg