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View Full Version : How to win from here?!?!?



06-29-2002, 10:49 AM
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Ok, I've ended up in this situation or something simmilar in the last couple tournaments I've played, and things didn't work out well for me.. so just wondering if anyone has any ideas what to do from here.

I am the stripes.. my opponent has left me behind his solid.. and if I don't hit my ball, he will simply take ball in hand and push my ball up the rail, leaving the cueball behind his again, but with a free open shot if I don't hit my ball the next time.. so I'd like to stop him here if I can... possibly by pushing his ball (with the cueball) off the rail a little bit, but still frozen to mine? I know it'll end up in him playin another safety, but at least he can't just push my ball up the rail, leaving me a do-or-die-and-probably-die-even-if-I-do kick shot.

Thanks.

06-29-2002, 12:30 PM
Seattle, from here, you should kick softly to the other long rail, trying to hit your 11 and leave safe.

If you meant for the 8 to block this path (it doesn't appear to in the diagram), you're in serious trouble. I might play the 8 all the way down to the middle of the other short rail. At least in doing so, you make him take a moderately difficult position shot once he plays the BIH safe you mention.

The basic rule you must keep in mind is that there's really no legitimate way to win from here, especially if the 8 is blocking that kicking path. This can't be understated. Once you get in a position like this, it's pretty much time to unscrew. So... do all you can not to get here.

- Steve

ObeOne
06-29-2002, 01:14 PM
Masse around the solid, hit your ball, and the cue ball will end up somewhere in the kitchen. ;-)

Chris Cass
06-29-2002, 10:02 PM
Hi Seattle,

Well, I tried this shot three ways. The first being the most logical but also leaving the cross corner bank out for your opponent. The cb after contact ended up at "B".

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The second shot I tried was this. The problem was I had to hit it pretty hard and at best I scratched. The closest I got was a hit on the 8 ball. Terrible odds.

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This is the third way I decided to go. I hit this jacked up enough to put a little power behind the shot and nailed it 3 times in a row. Hit the 13 ball and left the cb at "B" without the bank. I even moved the 8 ball over inline with the 13 to block the kick. Just in case you failed to be precise and it didn't matter. It's the nutz.

The bad part is I waited for the third pick to get it. It's more reliable than the first shot which is most logical if the 8 blocked the 13 for the one rail kick. Go figure. This game is about learning even after 30 yrs. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~thanks for the brain teaser.

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heater451
06-29-2002, 10:50 PM
Since I'm too lazy to try it out before posting, I will ask you: Instead of trying to go so many rails/angles, as in your second shot-- START(
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Why not go further into the corner, with top-left, and try to safety back on the other side? START(
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And, I'm not doubting the great results you had with your final solution, but, if you could make that, wouldn't there be enough room for the single bank, trying to leave the cue ball tight against the 1, or at least in a crappy set up (A-side)? START(
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Or, if the 8 is actually out of the way, put it on the B-side. . . .

Chris Cass
06-30-2002, 10:19 AM
Hi Heater,

No matter how you shoot it. It's a tough spot to be in. It seems even though, the one rail kick, is cut off from the 8 ball, the shot I went with was easier for me. Myself shooting in a game for the doe or tournament, would have been giving up BIH.

It was the third shot, I picked that was the best for me. It's the first shot that counts though. Sometimes, it's hard to understand what's best, with what you have to work with. So many times I see the right way to go, with my capabilities. This case I was wrong in my judgement call.

The second shot didn't come close to hitting the ball. I'm also assuming the 1 rail kick with right english, had to be perfect. Rolling the 8 cross table and putting it in the middle of the two would only give my opponent BIH with 2 balls to safe me with, isn't an option. The masse' as suggested I've done before but the stripe is frozen, so that wouldn't work. Unless your an Artistic Champion. Back banking the 8 ball for the block giving up BIH is a strong touch shot. You'ld have to be extremely confident of the rails on the table and speed.

I don't know, it's a call only one can make, with their individual game speed in mind. Funny how some of the shots we make, we shoot because we just see them better. Like you felt the shot was there, before looking at anything else. In this case I was wrong in my feelings. They say there's 6 ways to look at a shot. I think there looking at 6 pockets to put the ball in. In this case there's various ways to look at.

Considering, the time limit, you have to shoot in tournament, you'ld have to take the senerio, and judgement according to feel of what's best to the individual. LOL I also tried this on a bar box not a 9 ft. Good point.

Regards,

C.C.~~shots like these cause hair loss.

stickman
06-30-2002, 10:53 AM
I would probably push his ball tight to mine and try to freeze it to the rail. I would choose this option because I couldn't be sure of a good hit, kicking at my ball. Even with a good hit, I would be concerned about kicking my ball out and leaving him a good shot on the one, for an easy out. With there being a good chance of my giving him ball in hand, I would just play to give him ball in hand and try to see that there was not a good shot for him. I have been locked into these types of defensive battles before. The match is normally determined by the first person to make a mistake. I would go for another pretty sure defensive shot as to go for a pretty iffy offensive shot. Even if you hit your ball, you would have to be an extremely good shooter to be confident of the outcome after contact. With a hit, you're not at all likely to pocket your ball, but quite likely to have cleared your ball out of your opponents way.

Sid_Vicious
06-30-2002, 10:57 AM
SK..It's just me but, I would play the CB straight into the parallel diamond with the speed needed to "get there" and no more. You made it tougher being on the rail and having to shoot over the top of center, but I figure the 1'oclock stroke point, just above center on the CB will give it the needed spin to miss the 8 and deflect into the 13. START(
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You gotta stroke short here, and a little downward pressure of the shaft wouldn't hurt(imo)...sid

If done with confidence and stroke, you've just given him the headache back

Sid_Vicious
06-30-2002, 11:01 AM
Well I should have noticed the obvious safety he'll nail you with. OOPS!!!sid~~~damn good thinker you have here

Sid_Vicious
06-30-2002, 11:20 AM
Stickman...First impulse was the intentional foul, and then I let my "balls" get in the way. That predicament only has one good option, an intentional foul just as you presented(unless you happen to be Efren, in which case you would find your ball and make his and then run out...sid

07-01-2002, 08:37 PM
Yeah.. /ccboard_2/images/icons/smile.gif it's a tough spot, no doubt.. and thanks for not saying anything like "Well, you shouldn't get yourself into that spot in the first place" because it just so happens that the guys I was playing are very smart and good shooters... I can't leave him anything, or he'll kill me. ;(

07-01-2002, 08:45 PM
Stickman...First impulse was the intentional foul, and then I let my "balls" get in the way. That predicament only has one good option, an intentional foul just as you presented(unless you happen to be Efren, in which case you would find your ball and make his and then run out...sid

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WEll, the problem is, that is just what I did, and all he does there is get ball in hand, and shoot a combination shot, knocking my ball up the rail a ways, leaving the cueball behind his ball, at which point if I don't hit my ball then he gets ball in hand, and my ball is no longer in the way to make his shot.

I'm startin to think that the best shot is to kick at it hard, and hope for the best.. if I hit it hard enough, and the hit is questionable, the benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.. (me), and hopefully he winds up with a tough shot.

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This is what happened after I pushed his ball against mine in an intentional foul shot.. even if I hit my ball, he had an easy shot and out.. so I would rather stop him before it gets to this point.

07-01-2002, 08:52 PM
This is the third way I decided to go. I hit this jacked up enough to put a little power behind the shot and nailed it 3 times in a row. Hit the 13 ball and left the cb at "B" without the bank. I even moved the 8 ball over inline with the 13 to block the kick. Just in case you failed to be precise and it didn't matter. It's the nutz.

The bad part is I waited for the third pick to get it. It's more reliable than the first shot which is most logical if the 8 blocked the 13 for the one rail kick. Go figure. This game is about learning even after 30 yrs. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~thanks for the brain teaser.

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I'm going to try that shot, although.. honestly, I'd actually be more comfortable with the first way.. hard right english off the lower end of the long rail, and short rail for a kick.. but I'm going to give this one a try. Thank you! And thanks for doing the homework. /ccboard_2/images/icons/smile.gif

07-01-2002, 09:08 PM
Since I'm too lazy to try it out before posting, I will ask you: Instead of trying to go so many rails/angles, as in your second shot-- START(
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Why not go further into the corner, with top-left, and try to safety back on the other side? START(
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The easiest play I actually tried on my table at home was to bank the 8 behind between the 1 and corner pocket, so he can't just push my ball up the rail and have a clear shot at his ball.. (another intentional foul) after he gets ball in hand.. and it'll make his shot a bit harder at the very least.



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07-01-2002, 09:19 PM
Seattle, from here, you should kick softly to the other long rail, trying to hit your 11 and leave safe.

If you meant for the 8 to block this path (it doesn't appear to in the diagram), you're in serious trouble. I might play the 8 all the way down to the middle of the other short rail. At least in doing so, you make him take a moderately difficult position shot once he plays the BIH safe you mention.

The basic rule you must keep in mind is that there's really no legitimate way to win from here, especially if the 8 is blocking that kicking path. This can't be understated. Once you get in a position like this, it's pretty much time to unscrew. So... do all you can not to get here.

- Steve


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Thanks steve.. and believe me, I know it's not the spot anyone wants to be in, but I'm an optomist, and I believe I can get out of a shot if I hit it good enough. /ccboard_2/images/icons/smile.gif I meant, in the diagram, for the 8 to be *kindof* in the way, but the kick was still possible with english off the rail.. however, I knew that if I didn't hit my ball and get the rail afterwards, I would A) give up ball in hand so he could just shoot mine down table and leave CB behind his, or B) I would knock them apart and he would have an easy shot.. alot of bad things could happen. In these double-elimination, race to 1 pool shoots, people play for their life.. so I will too /ccboard_2/images/icons/smile.gif the good thing was I went undefeated the whole time, so he had to beat me twice.. (which he unfortunatly did). Either way, I want to give myself the best, percentage wise, way of winning if I come across a similar shot in the future, as the people I play love to play safeties like this one.. and why not? It's the smart way to play. Thanks again for replying!

07-01-2002, 10:17 PM
Depending on how I felt that day, I might consider this option. Since it's a really tough situation to begin with I may try to use the 8 ball to cause my opponent some problems by very lightly banking it cross table where it comes to rest either barely touching his ball or just next to it, leaving him with the possibility that he may not be able to get a snooker against me his next shot, or at the least...block the pocket.

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Fran

stickman
07-01-2002, 10:45 PM
After he pushes your ball up the rail and leaves you behind his ball, then you intentional foul again and push his up tight against yours again. It's a touch shot, but still better odds than a kick that has little to no possibility of being made, and only a chance of making contact. Then you hope he makes a mistake. If not, then you will be forced to make contact, to prevent the three foul rule. I would save the kick as a last resort after I had given him as many opportunies to mess up as possible. Your best chance is if your opponent makes a mistake in this situation. If he doesn't make a mistake, he pretty much has you. Efren might shoot his way out of this, but most of us would require a good deal of luck to escape from this situation.

07-02-2002, 03:10 AM
Depending on how I felt that day, I might consider this option. Since it's a really tough situation to begin with I may try to use the 8 ball to cause my opponent some problems by very lightly banking it cross table where it comes to rest either barely touching his ball or just next to it, leaving him with the possibility that he may not be able to get a snooker against me his next shot, or at the least...block the pocket.


______________________-

That is what I think is the best shot. The problem with kicking at the shot is that it is low percentage just to hit it just right, and even if you hit it good, he could just put my ball up against his again.. but to get a good hit is extremely hard, alot harder than just banking the 8 to somewhere on the rail below the 1 ball. Thank you for that, I think I know what to do next time. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Either that or kick at it really hard and hope to get lucky.. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

07-02-2002, 03:27 AM
After he pushes your ball up the rail and leaves you behind his ball, then you intentional foul again and push his up tight against yours again. It's a touch shot, but still better odds than a kick that has little to no possibility of being made, and only a chance of making contact. Then you hope he makes a mistake. If not, then you will be forced to make contact, to prevent the three foul rule. I would save the kick as a last resort after I had given him as many opportunies to mess up as possible. Your best chance is if your opponent makes a mistake in this situation. If he doesn't make a mistake, he pretty much has you. Efren might shoot his way out of this, but most of us would require a good deal of luck to escape from this situation.

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Well, after he pushed mine down the table, it was past the side pocket about 2 feet, or in between the other corner pocket and the side...

something like this:


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I thought about trying to freeze them again, but it would take a minor miracle to do it, and even though, he would have ball in hand to play safe again with, which is a big weapon. I chose the kick and missed because I had to hit it so hard to have a chance of leaving him in an awkward position, that the speed shortened the angle more than I thought, and it hit about an inch short of my ball.

I think rather than kick, I should have put the 8 close to the side pocket, and on or very near the rail so that he would have 2 thin cuts and more difficult position play.. such as:

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stickman
07-02-2002, 06:53 AM
Seeing what the outcome was, I agree with you that perhaps moving the eight to a more difficult position would be the proper move. The best you can do is make things more difficult for your opponent and hope he messes up. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif