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bsmutz
01-18-2006, 03:07 PM
Last night one of my teammates was playing a game when his opponent hit the cue ball, it rolled a few inches, and he hit again. I was standing right there talking to my teammate and blurted out "Whoa, whoa." My teammate calmly walked to the table and pocketed the 8 ball to win the game without saying anything or taking BIH. Afterwards, the opponent came up to me wagging his finger in my face and yelling "You're not supposed to say a f'ing thing!" twice. Well, in a way, that's true. We're not supposed to call anything or offer advice to a teammate while they are at the table unless it's during a call up. We often discuss what has happened and strategy with the current shooter while an opponent is at the table and both teams react verbally to shots by both teams (good shot, bad roll, whatever, you know how it goes with cheering and so forth). After I had thought about his outburst for awhile, I walked over and apologized for my outburst. I did tell him, however, that if he played pool like I did, I would have called a foul on myself instead of trying to hide it or ignore it like he did. He didn't have a response and left shortly thereafter. I know from reading posts on here that this kind of stuff goes on from time to time, but it sure is irksome when somebody makes a big deal out of my small indescretion when they blatantly foul and don't call attention to it themselves. I had a teammate last year tell me not to tell an opponent that I had fouled and that they had BIH unless they asked. I just looked at him kind of funny and continued to call fouls on myself as they occurred. He hasn't said anything about it since.

JPB
01-18-2006, 03:28 PM
Regarding the finger wagging, one solution is to break it.

J/K, that would probably be a felony in your area. But I would NEVER apologize for anything to someone who did this. He should not be allowed at the adult table when he behaves like a 6 year old.

vaillancourtroch
01-18-2006, 05:10 PM
If the cue ball rolled a few inches and he hit again, isn't this an attempt at cheating? I might have done the same as you did.

I do believe that if I foul, it is up to my oponent to realize it. I often see my oponent not realizing that nothing touched a bank after contact. I just let him play. There is nothing sneaky with playing by the rules.

walt8880
01-18-2006, 06:05 PM
Was there a referee at this match? Our leagus uses a referee for all matches which avoids these situations.

bsmutz
01-19-2006, 12:26 AM
Yes, he was attempting to cheat. During one of my games, I hit a shot too softly and the ball I was trying to make didn't make it to the pocket. I knew the cue ball didn't hit a rail either, so I told my opponent that I was unsure if any ball had hit a rail. He confirmed that another ball had hit the rail. Later in the same game I had to kick at the 8 ball. It was very close to the pocket but not in a good position to make it. I thought I made a clean hit on it leaving right where it was and burying the cue ball. He said it grazed his ball on the way in. I didn't see it, so I gave him BIH without argument. Fortunately his balls were so tied up that he was only able to make one and had to take the do or die shot on a frozen ball bank. I had an easy shot on the 8 for the win after that. I always call a foul on myself or if I think I may have fouled I will point it out. Better to play honestly, I think. The league is fairly informal so there are no referees. It's hard sometimes just to get enough players to show up. They had to play one of their players twice last night because they were short a man. It's a bar league so the equipment is usually pretty crappy. We were laughing all night at some of the rolls we were getting.

iacas
01-19-2006, 06:19 AM
I come from golf, really the only sport in which you're required to call penalties on yourself. Talk of "if they didn't see it, it wasn't an infraction" bothers me. The few times I've fouled (brushing a second ball when taking my stance, not driving something to the rail, etc.) I've called the foul on myself.

I wouldn't know, as I've never won by "cheating by omission" (as not calling a penalty on yourself would be), but it seems to me that such a victory would always have an asterisk next to it in my mind and memory.

bluey2king
01-19-2006, 10:07 AM
You are an honorable player! The kind I like to play. The game isn't just about winning its about winning correctly. I always call fouls on myself.

Here is a Question. I saw my opponet double hit the cue much like you just decribed on the Break. I called out double hit but no one else said a thing. The guy was new to leauge so I dont think he knew if it was a foul. Now that I think about it might not be on the break??? If you miss cue on the break you get to do it again if you miss the rack. We are playing APA 9 ball.
Any way I didn't make a big deal because I wasn't sure and he didn't make anything and I had a good shot on the one.

sidepocketsam
01-19-2006, 02:04 PM
2 things that I disagree with most of the responses about.

#1. Double hitting the cue ball is a foul, but not cheating in my opinion. I've done it where I accidently hit the cue in a warmup stroke and then a panic reaction makes me hit it again. It's such a quick response that I don't have time to think of it as a ploy. I know it's a foul, but it's almost a reflext action.

#2. It's not up to him to call his own foul. And it's not a question of sportsmanship when it comes to team play. You aren't playing for yourself, you're playing for your team and the rule states that the opponent has the responsibility to call the foul. Stick to that. Each player on a team might have a totally different opinion of what is sportsmanship and your safer just playing within reasonable limits to win for your team. If your opponent doesn't call the foul, it's the opponent's fault. You shouldn't incorporate your own morals into a game that you're not playing for yourself.

If a player in football knows he trapped a ball in stead of a clean catch, yet the ref rules it was a completion, that player doesn't go over to the ref and say "you need to change the call", he takes the gift because it's not a gift that's his to refuse, it's his teams gift, or luck or whatever you want to classify it as.

Playing one on one is another story. You are playing for yourself and it's up to you to control your reputation.

bsmutz
01-19-2006, 02:39 PM
Given the situation and the team play, there is a gray area here. My main complaint was his immature outburst at me for my reaction to his shot attempt. My experience has been that if you accidentally bump the cue ball while addressing it, stop, and point it out to the opponent, almost half the time they will put the ball back where it was (or allow you to) and let you reshoot. We all make these same mistakes. I used to go ahead and double hit the ball in that situation also, but have trained myself (and teach my kids and grandkids) to stop and see what the opponent wants to do about it. In my personal opinion bad sportsmanship by a person on a team is a reflection on the whole team and therefore in my mind more serious than a personal instance. I can understand how someone else might see it differently.

SPetty
01-19-2006, 04:02 PM
Hi sidepocketsam,

Thanks for taking the time to make those very valid responses. I will in general not call obvious fouls on myself during league play, but allow my opponent that opportunity. As pointed out by another poster, this has resulted in my opponent not noticing the "no rail" foul on occasion. But more often than not, they do catch it and call it and I gladly pick up the cue ball and hand it to them.

However, I will almost always call non-obvious fouls on myself - the ones where I know I fouled but they didn't have a chance to see it, or it was so subtle that they missed it. I think this firstly makes me feel "right" about it, and secondly, helps teach my fellow league players a little about sportsmanship.

A week ago, I tried to stop my opponent from breaking down his cue as I was on the eight ball. He learned the hard way that you lose your game when that happens. Now he probably hates me, but he, his teammates and my teammates learned a hard-to-forget lesson.

vaillancourtroch
01-19-2006, 04:12 PM
quote from Sidepocketsam:

"Playing one on one is another story. You are playing for yourself and it's up to you to control your reputation."


I've played one on one tournaments where the opponent must call the foul.

vaillancourtroch
01-19-2006, 04:22 PM
quote from Spetty:

"However, I will almost always call non-obvious fouls on myself - the ones where I know I fouled but they didn't have a chance to see it, or it was so subtle that they missed it."


Excellent!

The only time I apply the rule is with the bank after contact.