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06-30-2002, 06:31 AM
I watched Jim Rempe and now I'm watching Buddy Hall on the trickshooter.com site. Both of them seem to pause the cue stick right near the cue ball. Then they stroke backwards and shoot in one motion. Is there a difference between pausing at the front before the last stroke instead of pausing in the rear during the last stroke?
Is one a more preferred method?
Or am I just seeing this incorrectly or making too much of nothing?

06-30-2002, 06:33 AM
Just after I posted this I'm noticing Buddy Hall pausing at the rear during his final backstroke.

PQQLK9
06-30-2002, 06:39 AM
I usually do Front...it keeps the stroke one continual motion...

Karatemom
06-30-2002, 08:13 AM
Hi Eddie. Consistency is the key here. Whichever you do, you should do it for every shot, IMHO. I agree though, that pausing at the cb makes the final stroke one continual motion.

Heide

06-30-2002, 09:23 AM
Often I don't pause at all. Especially on force follow shots. And maybe on draw shots. I'll try to pay more attention. I don't know if I'm explaining it correctly but I know either sometimes or often I just stroke a few times and shoot without a pause.

stickman
06-30-2002, 09:57 AM
I pause at the cue ball. Once I'm sure of my aim, have checked where I'm planning to strike the cue ball, and how hard, and feel that I know approximately where the cue ball will go, I draw the cue back and shoot the shot. To me, it would be hard to reaffirm my aim, and check the english, draw, or follow with the cue already drawn. Anyway, if I have any doubts in this process, I stand up and reassess the shot. All my decisions are made standing up. I'm just reaffirming the decisions at the pause. I don't ever want to take a shot with any doubt in my mind as to the outcome.

Unfortunately, this doesn't always work, LOL!, but this is my plan of attack.

Tom_In_Cincy
06-30-2002, 10:18 AM
Eddie,
Heide (aka Kartemom) is correct about the consistancy statement. A pause at either spot (front or rear) as long as it is consistant, is good.
Many good instructors will include 'the pause' in their training.
The pause at the rear is the one that I have seen most. I don't have a distinguished pause (Scott Lee can verify that) but I do have a consistant delivery, which is the key like Karatemom stated.

I still think that the eyes looking from the cue ball to the aim point and back in concert with the practice strokes is the key to being consistant. There is a rhythm to this process, and its well worth the effort to develope yours.

SPetty
06-30-2002, 11:36 AM
What about pausing at the cue ball and pausing at the backswing? Is that just stupid, or helpful or neither?

Tom_In_Cincy
06-30-2002, 11:43 AM
SPetty,
valid question, I have never seen anyone do this, but I don't think its out of the question, IF its consistant, and you can develope a rhythm for this pattern..

Scott Lee
06-30-2002, 12:00 PM
SPetty...The double pause is what the snooker players, like Alison and Karen, do. There is a short pause at the CB, generally a slow backswing, a pause at the end of the backswing, and the followthrough stroke. A very effective
stroke. However, as you will see, I believe it is easier to fine tune the stroke with just a single pause, at the CB.
The pause at the end of the backswing (particularly if it is too long) can take away from the fluidity and rhythm of the stroke. Some players even get away with a super long pause at the back...like Buddy Hall. But for the majority of us, keeping it simple is the path to quicker success.
The transition between the backswing to the forward stroke is the key. Many players, even if they pause at the back, will backswing the cue too quickly. Even with the pause, this can detract from the accuracy of the forward stroke. JMO

Scott Lee

PQQLK9
06-30-2002, 12:11 PM
Thanks Scott....your checks in the e-mail /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Chris Cass
07-02-2002, 12:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr>
The transition between the backswing to the forward stroke is the key. Many players, even if they pause at the back, will backswing the cue too quickly. Even with the pause, this can detract from the accuracy of the forward stroke. JMO Scott Lee [ quote ]

First, although I deleted the top half of this post Scott, your right on the money.

Now, to comment on your thought above makes total sence IMO. When a player pulls the backswing to quickly and stops he or she tenses up those muscles and then, propels them forward. The muscles shouldn't react smoothly. It's like doing a neutral drop in a 64 chevy station wagon. LOL

Regards,

C.C.~~LMAO and agree with Scott totally.

Rod
07-02-2002, 03:07 AM
Chris I definately agree with Scott and you. My thought is if you pause at the c/b, which I do, then the back swing is not likely to be rushed. If it is rushed then so will be the forward motion. I do have a definate change in direction although it is not what I would call a pause. It's just a brief moment in time where the cue changes direction. We all have our inner sense of rythm but when it gets to quick or too slow is where trouble begins. Mine is on the slow side. BTW, never dropped into a 64 wagon, I never owned one! lol

TomBrooklyn
07-02-2002, 07:07 AM
Eddie, Do a search on the word "pause" with the date range set for "all posts" and you'll get a few more posts on this subject. In particular, BCA Master Instructor Randy G advocates a pause at the end of the backstroke as an important part of the stroke.

I started adding a pause at the end of the backstroke a few months ago and found it upped my shotmaking percentage right away, although I don't have it fully ingrained into my stroke (consistancy) as I have been working on some other things also, and sometimes forget to pause.

When I pause, I don't think I consiously reevaluate the aim, cue ball hit location etc, I've already decided on that by that time, I just kind of make a final focus on the object ball with the pause for about a second or a little less, then pull the trigger.

07-02-2002, 10:09 AM
Scott I am not sure how anyone can argue with the all round success of almost all of the best players in the world... there is no way on gods green earth you could convince me that pausing at the CB is better than pausing at the back of your stroke... when you start at the CB and then finnish in one movement what you are doing is bringing your arm back then you have to essentially flex your muscles to stop the backward motion and push through the backward momentum so you can force your cue forward thus in my opinion giving you way more chance of throwing your cue off-line. the pause at the back of the stroke is designed to ease your arm into the forward motion so there is not a conflict between backward and forward momentum... the key to this working the most efficiently is of course a slow backstroke. So very many times I have seen people who try to do all of this in one motion "jerk" thier cueand it is amazing how much just pausing at the back can improve even the newest of beginners potting ability.

By reading your posts lately Scott I feel I would definately not benefit from a lesson from you.

07-02-2002, 10:11 AM
so you think pulling back quckly and thrusting forward quickly is less harmful?? please explain.

07-02-2002, 10:13 AM
you guys need to watch some more snooker (where strokes are almost perfect) and see where they pause.

Cueless Joey
07-02-2002, 10:29 AM
I think pausing on the cb and "hesitating" on the back stroke is enough.
Two of the best strokers I've seen are Kim Davenport and John Schmidt. They look like they have wild practice strokes but they slow down then pause and hesitate and shoot.

Chris Cass
07-02-2002, 10:49 AM
Hi Rod,

I also pause at the cb, so I'm like you. The pause doesn't have to be totally pronounced, just slight. It's like watching a pro and you should be able to know when, there final stroke is there. I haven't always had a set pattern or stroke (method) rhythm till, I rebuilt it from the ground up. It's being consistant in every little thing you can. There are so many varibles in shooting and the ones we make consistant is just one more we don't have to worry about. IMO

My friend had his dad and moms wagon one day. He wanted me to use it to go to the store for him. His parents weren't home. He's yelling at me while I was backing up, so I stopped. I put my head out the window and said, "What?" He said, "take it easy with the car." I said, "OK" backing up about 5 MPH, slipped it into neutral, rev'd the puppy up while rolling backwards and popped it into drive. Leaving about 2 ft of burnt rubber. The look on his face is what RIP would call "Priceless." LMAO 15 and learning. lol

Regards,

C.C.~~believes in the less moving parts theory.

JimS
07-02-2002, 10:55 AM
I've accepted that there is no "right" or "wrong" way to pause. The key is to do whatever works for you, do it consistently and do it smoothly.

I can't shoot well with the pause at the end of the backswing but that's me. The key for me is to make the back swing slow, smooth and controlled. When I do that the shooting stroke usually has those qualities as well.

Either way it's not something worth getting my shorts in a knot because the world doesn't agree with me. It's personal preference and if your's works...don't fix it.

Scott Lee
07-02-2002, 01:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr> By reading your posts lately Scott I feel I would definately not benefit from a lesson from you. <hr></blockquote>

d0wnt0wn...LOL! To each their own! However, if you ever want to really improve your game, you should at least be open to other ideas. As an instructor, I am always open to others' suggestions. However, usually after I listen to them, and suggest some possible problems or improvements, many people come around. Nothing in pool is an end-all or be-all. However, my teaching methods are proven successful for thousands of people...and many pros stroke exactly the same way I do. Good luck with your game!

Scott Lee

07-02-2002, 01:51 PM
seems like the blind leading the blinder to me

Scott Lee
07-02-2002, 02:06 PM
d0wnt0wn...Now come on! Do you really want to lower yourself to the same level as Malcolm and Patrick, by name calling, etc.? Drag yourself up by the bootstraps...stand up straight and just give your opinion. Just because me and others don't necessarily agree with you, doesn't give you reason to bad mouth anyone. Remember what I said in an earlier post to you...different strokes for different folks...and leave it at that!

For the record, though, I believe if you SAW what I am talking about, you might have a different conclusion! You would certainly have "everything to gain, and nothing to lose" by learning something different from what you now "know"! What I teach is a very natural motion...one without all the kinks, pokes, and jerks common with some other kinds of strokes!

Scott Lee

Rod
07-02-2002, 02:19 PM
Chris,
Off subject here but I spoke with Don Rose last week. I've seen him several times but kept forgeting to ask him about you and the rooms he played in. He did mention Kellys ? and some others in the area. He said that was when he was in his prime. He didn't remember you, but then as he said so many years and people you just can't remember all the names. Boy I don't find that hard to believe. Just thought I'd let you know, better late than never.

Michelle
07-02-2002, 02:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> However, as you will see, I believe it is easier to fine tune the stroke with just a single pause, at the CB.
The pause at the end of the backswing (particularly if it is too long) can take away from the fluidity and rhythm of the stroke. Some players even get away with a super long pause at the back...like Buddy Hall. But for the majority of us, keeping it simple is the path to quicker success.
The transition between the backswing to the forward stroke is the key.
Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

Actually, I have been taught that the pause between the backswing and the forward swing is the most important, and should not be ignored. Whether the pause is very short or very long, the idea is that different muscles are used to draw the cue back and to swing the cue forward, and that the first set of muscles needs a "pause" in order to come to a complete stop and allow the second set of muscles to take over the forward swing. It's not my idea, it's that of <a target="_blank" href=http://www.poolschool.com>Cuetec Pool School</a>, but I am in complete agreement. The pause at the backswing also gives me just an extra split second to have my eyes on the object ball before I follow through with my shot.

I do not think a pause at the CB is as important, but I do know that it helps me -- it reminds me to breathe!

SpiderMan
07-02-2002, 02:59 PM
Despite several instructors (as well as Rod Elliott, who has a fantastic stroke) advocating the pause at the end of the backswing, I find that my timing is adversely affected if I try to incorporate a distinct hesitation there. Rod studied my shooting and tried last year to get me to "hang" at the end of the backswing, but it just doesn't flow right for me.

On the other hand, I very much favor a pause at the cueball. I find that focusing on the tip/cueball contact point just prior to my final backswing greatly improves my ability to return the tip to that precise point, while a pause at the backswing may reduce that accuracy of return.

In watching many players shoot accurately and then miss their position, I believe much of it can be attributed to slight errors in contact point with the tip. This may result in a little follow instead of a stop, a stop instead of a little draw, etc.

SpiderMan



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> What about pausing at the cue ball and pausing at the backswing? Is that just stupid, or helpful or neither?
<hr></blockquote>

Rod
07-02-2002, 04:01 PM
Wait, wait hold on thar Spidey, if your trying to get me to but the next round of drinks it won't work! lol Seriously thanks for the compliment but it was never my intention to have you come to a complete stop, Like Allison or Buddy H. The idea I thought I conveyed, it's been over a year, was to have a noticable change in direction during that transition period. It's our inner sense of rythm that either makes this time short or long, for most people it is short or non existant. The important part IMO is it does occur to make the transition smooth. Sorry if I give you the wrong impression. To simplify, finish your back stroke before you start forward. That does not mean it has to be a long pause. Ditto on a slight pause at the c/b and the reasons mentioned.

Scott Lee
07-02-2002, 04:15 PM
Michelle...The pause at the backswing you describe should typically be only a slight hesitation, in order to transition from the backswing to the forward swing. IMO, a longer pause will likely be detrimental to the accuracy of the stroke. The real key is the SPEED of the backswing. It needs to be slow, in order to allow a smooth, easy change for the forward stroke....nothing jerky, just smooth and easy!

Scott Lee

Scott Lee
07-02-2002, 04:54 PM
...and one more thing! If you DID take a lesson from me, and didn't think it was valuable to you, you would owe me ZERO! Nada...nothing! See how many places you find THAT in professional sports instruction!...or anything else, for that matter! LOL

Scott

Chris Cass
07-02-2002, 07:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> Chris,
Off subject here but I spoke with Don Rose last week. I've seen him several times but kept forgeting to ask him about you and the rooms he played in. He did mention Kellys ? and some others in the area. He said that was when he was in his prime. He didn't remember you, but then as he said so many years and people you just can't remember all the names. Boy I don't find that hard to believe. Just thought I'd let you know, better late than never. <hr></blockquote>

Thanks Rod,

Funny I talked with Johnny Archer and also Tommy Kennedy in Vegas. They both put the place and time we've played each other but both didn't remember me. I thought about it for awhile and came up with the answer.

If the tables were turned and it was me who got famous in pool, chances are they'd remember me and I wouldn't know them from adam. LOL Just a time and a name. I remember though and there all my memories.

Don Rose wouldn't remember, a snot nose kid like me anyway. I will remember him though. He was like the very first famous player I ever met. He'll always be thought of by me as the person that made me see first hand, what shooting can lead to, respect.

Thanks Rod,

C.C.~~appreciate Rod and his great memory. lol

Scott Lee
07-02-2002, 08:52 PM
Chris...For me, that moment was seeing Jack White for the first time! He COMMANDED respect! LOL He sure put on a great show...and I was totally hooked for life! I'll never forget the date...it's my son's birthday...only 10 yrs earlier!

Scott

TonyM
07-02-2002, 10:28 PM
Watching some of the top Snooker players I see three different versions of how and where to pause:

1) pause at the cueball, switch eyes to object ball, then come back slowly and smoothly accelerate forward - Ronnie O'Sullivan for example
2) pause at the backswing only, switch eyes to object ball at the end of the backswing, then come forward - Steve Davis, Allison Fisher
3) double pause - pause at the cueball, switch eyes to object ball, then a slight pause at the backswing and come forward - Steven Hendry, Karen Corr, Buddy Hall

The key to making the pause at the backswing work consistently is to synchronize the eye switch (from the cueball to the object ball) with the pause. If you simply try and tell yourself to pause, you will sometimes forget. But if your eye movement is keyed to the rear pause, then the pause length is set by how long it takes for you to focus in on the object ball. So the pause becomes a built-in artifact of the eye/arm timing, not a forced technique.

From what I can tell, there does not seem to be a direct mechanical advantage to one technique or the other.

However, it does seem likely that the rearward pause, when combined with the eye/arm timing does reduce the variable of backswing speed.

Many players forget, or have trouble getting a consistent smooth slow backswing, especially when they add some extra speed to the shot. They have a tendancy to hurry-up the backswing, which can throw the cue off-line. For these players the pause at the rear can help reduce that variable. (it matters far less how fast the backswing is, if the cue comes to a complete stop for any length of time).

Tony

TonyM
07-02-2002, 10:35 PM
Scott, Frank Callan (coach to Steve Davis and Allison Fisher) suggests that the rear pause be used to allow time for the eyes to switch to the object ball. Thus the time required for the pause at the backswing is not a forced unnatural technique, but an artifact of how long it takes you to acquire and focus on the correct point of aim before you pull the trigger. Taught in this way, the pause at the rear in no way diminishes the accuracy of the stroke, nor does it appear unnatural or non-fluid.

However, I do agree that if you try and force the pause (without understanding the link between eye movement and arm timing) then the pause can result in a jerky forced movement that feels very unnatural.

If you watch Allison's eyes closely, you will see that she takes a last look at the cueball, pulls the cue back, switches her eyes to the object ball, and then pulls the trigger. She does it the same way each time, and the key is that eye/arm synchronicity.

Tony

TonyM
07-02-2002, 10:46 PM
I used to think that all the top Snooker players paused at the backswing also Downtown. In fact, some do, some don't.

Some that pause at the cueball only - Ronnie O'Sullivan, Peter Ebdon, Jimmie White, Mathew Stevens, Mark Williams

Some that pause at the back - Steven Hendry, Steve Davis, John Higgins, Cliff Thorburn, Allison Fisher

Note that the "natural" players (White, O'Sullivan) tend to pause at the cueball (they also use very few warm-up strokes) while the "mechanical players" tend to pause at the back (just an observation).

Note also that you can find champions in both lists. (including the current World champion in the pause at the cueball list).

It would seem to me that the real key is to be consistent at whatever method you choose, not the method itself.

Tony
-has watched many, many hours of top Snooker

07-02-2002, 11:02 PM
There's no doubt that both pauses can be a really good thing to develop. But many top players do not pause, and many great players have totally unconventional strokes.

The best explanation I've got (from a top pro) is pretty much this:

The pause at the cue ball (with the cue tip _close_ to the cue ball), ensures that you actually know, and focus on, where you're hitting the cue ball. At this point, you make sure that everything fits. Does what you're about to do with your arm and with this aim match what you just visualised ?

The pause at the back of the stroke does several things. One is that it's a decision making point. It's your final decision on whether to stroke, or to re-chalk after your opponent dropped his cue. Does everything _feel_ right for the final stroke (because from this point on, you're committed)?

It also allows you to focus on the final stroke, and the acceleration through the impact with the cue ball, as a separate task.

There is a third pause, at the end of the stroke, which is a sort of end point, ensuring that you follow through correctly.

The pauses help in refining your decisions, and they help in breaking down, analysing, and refining each part of the stroke. Remember that the top pro's go through the same decision making process as everyone else, but with practice, the whole process is quick and natural.


The process is :

1. decide what you're going to do
2. decide what english to use
3. decide where to aim
4. take your stance
---------------
5. check your aim
6. practise strokes (if you use them)
7. PAUSE (1)
8. check your impact point with cue tip at cue ball
9. backstroke
10.PAUSE(2)
11.everything feel good ?
12.stroke
13.PAUSE(3)
14.check what happened.

My own opinion is that so long as you are making each one of these decisions, the most important thing is that your arm cashes the cheque your mind just wrote (if I didn't keep screwing up, I'd be in the hall of fame), and it simply doesn't matter what technique you use to ensure that you hit the cue ball smoothly, in the right direction, and in the right place.

For me, the pause at the back doesn't seem to work. I'm far more accurate and far smoother and more confident in my stroke if my back-forward pendulum is smooth and un-interrupted. Maybe the pause really is the key to elevating my own stroke to the top rung. The jury's still out.

I also think that a classic pendulum stroke can be more forgiving of other factors, like consistent elbow position, balance, wrist action. Refining a smooth and powerful stroke with acceleration on impact derived in part from a well-timed wrist snap, is really very difficult, and requires unconscious but very precise muscle control, and any technique that helps to tune out slop, focus on, isolate, or analyse, any part of the stroke, can only be good.

Asleep in Seattle

07-03-2002, 01:37 AM
nice post tony I think a lot of players misunderstand a fluent stroke by thinking that they have to take the cue back just as fast as they thrust it forward thus causing a jerking effect in the transition from back to forward... after watching a video of charlie williams i noticed he has a CB pause and no pause at all in the backstroke but he definately has a deliberate slower backstroke.. nick varner on the other hand seems to use the 2 pause method which I am much more a fan of as I too feel a great need to have a transition point from cb to ob with my eyes and the pause at the end of the backstroke lets me do that.

07-03-2002, 08:47 AM

07-03-2002, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> d0wnt0wn...Now come on! Do you really want to lower yourself to the same level as Malcolm and Patrick, by name calling, etc.? Drag yourself up by the bootstraps...stand up straight and just give your opinion. Just because me and others don't necessarily agree with you, doesn't give you reason to bad mouth anyone. Remember what I said in an earlier post to you...different strokes for different folks...and leave it at that!

Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>


Scott when did I name call?? all I said is that I do not think I would benefit from your instruction.. you obviously teach a style of shooting that I have no interest in switching to. My stroke is good enough the way it is.. should I take a lesson from someone it would be one of position play and patterns. I have no interest in someone trying to change my stroke to what I personally believe to be inferior methods. Why is it Scott that every time someone challenges you on here instead of you saying something intelligent to disprove what that person is saying you always start telling everyone how good of an instructor you are and thousands cant be wrong?.. do you really think that your fly by night lessons really have that much impact on a persons pool playing ability?? Maybe if they have NEVER had instruction before but 1 4-hour lesson as you slide through town is not going to drastically change someones life.

Scott Lee
07-03-2002, 01:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: d0wnt0wn:</font><hr>


Scott when did I name call?? all I said is that I do not think I would benefit from your instruction.. you obviously teach a style of shooting that I have no interest in switching to. My stroke is good enough the way it is.. should I take a lesson from someone it would be one of position play and patterns. I have no interest in someone trying to change my stroke to what I personally believe to be inferior methods. Why is it Scott that every time someone challenges you on here instead of you saying something intelligent to disprove what that person is saying you always start telling everyone how good of an instructor you are and thousands cant be wrong?.. do you really think that your fly by night lessons really have that much impact on a persons pool playing ability?? Maybe if they have NEVER had instruction before but 1 4-hour lesson as you slide through town is not going to drastically change someones life. <hr></blockquote>

I believe you called it, the "blind leading the blinder"! That is name calling, no matter what you think. Just what do you call making a statement like "fly-by-night lessons"? That is also name calling, and only makes YOU look bad here! BTW, my students have won 17 national titles (and none of them had only 1-4 hrs of lessons), so my instruction must be of SOME value to someone! LOL I don't feel the need to "disprove" anything. People are welcome to all kinds of opinions, even if they are out of the mainstream! I don't ALWAYS try to change people's stroke, unless it is really out of whack...and I do a lot of lessons with better players that focus on patterns and position play! Actually, several people have told me that I DID drastically change their life (about pool anyway) after just a couple of hours! But like I told you before...it's best just to leave it with "different strokes for different folks"! That is non-aggressive, and non-confrontational. Best wishes on continued improvement in your game, wherever it may come from!

Scott Lee

cheesemouse
07-03-2002, 02:41 PM
Scott,
You have to cut 'downtown' some slack, he is one of those people that believe everything they think. LOL LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Michelle
07-03-2002, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr> I find that my timing is adversely affected if I try to incorporate a distinct hesitation there. Rod studied my shooting and tried last year to get me to "hang" at the end of the backswing, but it just doesn't flow right for me.<hr></blockquote>

When I first started doing this, it seemed quite odd for me as well. I had to practice over and over again just on pausing during my stroke. It helped for me to practice my stroke, talk it through in my head, "Pause(at CB)...back...(backswing)...pause...stroke." Then when I played a game, I would have the pause without having to think about. And it doesn't HAVE to be a long pause, mine is much shorter in my game than when I concetrate on practicing it. All in all, this one thing did make a difference in my game.
JMHO /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

07-03-2002, 04:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr>
I believe you called it, the "blind leading the blinder"! That is name calling, no matter what you think. Just what do you call making a statement like "fly-by-night lessons"? That is also name calling, and only makes YOU look bad here! BTW, my students have won 17 national titles (and none of them had only 1-4 hrs of lessons), so my instruction must be of SOME value to someone! LOL I don't feel the need to "disprove" anything. People are welcome to all kinds of opinions, even if they are out of the mainstream! I don't ALWAYS try to change people's stroke, unless it is really out of whack...and I do a lot of lessons with better players that focus on patterns and position play! Actually, several people have told me that I DID drastically change their life (about pool anyway) after just a couple of hours! But like I told you before...it's best just to leave it with "different strokes for different folks"! That is non-aggressive, and non-confrontational. Best wishes on continued improvement in your game, wherever it may come from!

Scott Lee
<hr></blockquote>


Seems to me you like to take a lot of credit for other peoples achievments Scott.... 17 of your students??? you mean that you took these 17 people from scratch molded them in your own personal pool school, taught them everything you know and now they are champions?? or you happened to give each of them a few lessons and now you want to take credit for what each of them have achieved on thier own. information is just that information... some of it is good information and some of it is bad information.... I often listen to people tak about pool and what they think is the correct way to do things some of them are right and some of them are wrong (at least for me) but as an individual it is up to me to weed through all of the garbage to find waht i think would best help me and my game. You seem to teach a style that goes against alomst everything I have learned up to this point. It seems that a lot of people that post here buy into your style. You might do more to convince me that your ways are the best ways if you didnt have such hollow replies every time someone challenged you.. instead your only comebacks often end in "Ive taught thousands so I must be right".

cheesemouse
07-03-2002, 06:44 PM
Down,
Is there anything your not sure you know best? Your attitude that your right and if somebody disagrees they obviously are just stupid is a real drag. I'll bet that attitude keeps you in action. LOL While I'm at it why don't you do us all a favor and take your stupid strutting pimp off every one of your posts, it gives me vertigo. Of course, I say this knowing that if you haven't thought of it yourself it must not be worthy of concideration. Now about your reply I will answer now.......it would be my pleasure..... LOL LOL

07-03-2002, 09:08 PM
maybe my pimp is here jsut to piss you off cheese

cheesemouse
07-03-2002, 09:25 PM
Down,
It doesn't pi$$ me off it makes me dizzy. LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

TonyM
07-03-2002, 10:24 PM
I've got some good videos where it is very clear (because the view is from the front) that she switches her eyes AFTER the cue is brought back. Perhaps sometimes it is during the swing itself, but it is never (as far as I could tell) before the cue comes back. Other players that switch their eyes before their cues come back incorporate a pause at the cueball. Allison does not really use a deliberate pause at the cueball. Sometimes she has a slight hesitation, and sometimes no pause at all.

So you see, in both cases, it is the pause that signals the eye switch (or more correctly, the eye switch that CREATES the pause). So if you pause at the cueball, then you switch BEFORE the backswing. If you pause at the back, then you should switch AFTER the backswing.

Both methods guarantee a consistent pause. They are merely the time required to switch and focus the eyes.

It seems clear to me.

Tony

07-03-2002, 11:04 PM
Hey Cheesemouse.
Whatever happened to the mouse at the bottom of your messages?

Scott Lee
07-04-2002, 12:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr>

So if you pause at the cueball, then you switch BEFORE the backswing.

Tony <hr></blockquote>

The third option is that there is no switch at all...which would be perfectly natural, if you are looking at the cue ball as you transition from the backswing to the forward stroke!

Scott Lee

cheesemouse
07-04-2002, 05:10 AM
Eddie,
I removed it because it was pointed out to me that most of the user's here have 'dial-up' connections and these bandwidth gobbling features cause their download times to increase; the removal was a courtesy to those that have these slow connections. It's not that I'm full of breeding and civility but I will listen to reason... LOL LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

cheesemouse
07-04-2002, 05:36 AM
Tony M &amp; Scott,
I use all three options or pauses and they seem to be conditional to the shot as far as the amount of time the pause is in length. Some players have told me the pause at the backswing can be quite lengthy. I don't notice the timing when I'm in the zone...and I hardly ever use more than one on a particular shot. My question to you both is: is that weird or what??? I'm not much of an analitical player but more on the feel side of the fence but I am open to suggestions from qualified players and instructors if it will improve my consistancy. Thanks in advance...... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

Scott Lee
07-04-2002, 11:13 AM
cheese...I don't think that is weird at ALL! LOL IMO, all good players utilize any and all weapons in their arsenal, depending on the shot situation, and of course how they
"feel" about the shot. In many shot situations (like a bank, for example), shots are played with a "feel" for where to hit the CB, how hard to stroke, and any special timing mechanisms, that might help the shooter to successfully complete the task at hand! These things will often happen quite automatically, without any deliberate thought process...alluding to the "feel" for the shot, that you were describing! I think at the top level, the competitors play more by feel, than anything else! Keep up the good work!

Scott Lee

07-04-2002, 12:59 PM
I find that sometimes I step into my underwear with my left leg first but every now and then i put my right leg in first... either way I manage to get my underwear on.

TonyM
07-04-2002, 02:44 PM
Of course Scott! I was only talking about players that actually do look at the object ball last!

By the way, in order for your method to work, it seems that the opposite must be true. That is, at some point you must have to look at the object ball in order to verify that your cue is on the correct aim line (no? yes?). So at what point do you suggest that the student take a last look at the object ball and switch to the cueball?

Tony
-only looks at the cueball last for jump shots and extreme jacked up shots

Scott Lee
07-04-2002, 11:40 PM
Tony...Looking back and forth from the CB to the OB, goes on as you are taking your practice swings, and running through your preshot routine. As you commit to the stroke, and slowly backswing the cue, the focus remains on the CB, at impact.

Scott

07-05-2002, 12:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> Tony...Looking back and forth from the CB to the OB, goes on as you are taking your practice swings, and running through your preshot routine. As you commit to the stroke, and slowly backswing the cue, the focus remains on the CB, at impact.

Scott
<hr></blockquote>

With all due respect Scott,do you stand tall while playing or is your chin right over the cue stick?

I've the feeling that your chin is no where close to the cue so therefore you'd be forced to look at the cueball last as you suggest is proper.Just curious.BS

07-05-2002, 03:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> Tony...Looking back and forth from the CB to the OB, goes on as you are taking your practice swings, and running through your preshot routine. As you commit to the stroke, and slowly backswing the cue, the focus remains on the CB, at impact.

Scott
<hr></blockquote>


I find that I only start looking at the CB last when im shooting poorly and I dont have alot of confidence in my stroke... I definately make a conscious effort to look at the OB( or to be more accurate the exact spot i want my CB to hit) during my backstroke. I have to wonder also if you are more of a stand up kind of player.

Scott Lee
07-05-2002, 05:30 AM
BS...Yes, I do stand more erect at the table than many others. I do teach the chin over the cue, I just don't think it is necessary to have your chin ON the cue. As long the cue is reasonably level with the table, imo, it is not that big of a deal how high or low you stand over the shot, as long as you can still free-swing the forearm. Naturally, on shots where I am stretched out more on the table, my chin will be on the cue. For myself, I think I can see the angle better from a higher stance...it has nothing to do with where I am looking last...jmo!

Scott Lee