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Isshi
01-22-2006, 09:23 AM
Playing 9 ball, if the breaker fails to contact the racked balls, does the
incoming player have the option of playing a safety off the one-ball?

Perhaps two years ago there was a long thread on the type of safety one
could play, brushing off the one, rolling up one or two cushions behind
the barely disturbed stack.

My instructor insisted during our weekly session tonight that (after he had
miscued and missed the stack) I had ball in hand, but that I HAD to drive
four balls to a cushion. (I was about to play a safety and he stopped me.)

He explained that after a foul on a legal break (scratching for example),
a safety option would be fine. But because a legal break had not occurred,
the incoming player was obligated to complete a legal break.

We searched the rule book, and I could not locate a clear explanation for
the situation on the table. He also said that this applies in BCA 8 ball and
9 ball, as well as in Japan. He was a little insistent, so I conceded his
opinion and decided to break from the kitchen.

What's the rule here? Can a safety be played off the rack after an illegal
break?

Best regards, Isshi.

Rod
01-22-2006, 10:52 AM
Your instructor has it right. The bca rules are so hosed up however it isn't clear. Bob Jewett was re-writing the rules (may be on his website). Until a new rule book comes out there are plenty of grey areas.

Rod

Ace
01-22-2006, 07:54 PM
I have always thought that if a lueagle break has not occured, the game has not started yet either. Why would you want to continue from there......besides, what good would playing safe from an un-broken rack of 9-ball do?

Isshi
01-22-2006, 08:22 PM
The idea was something like this:
START(
%AN7O5%BL8P7%CJ7O4%DL8N2%EM7P1%FK7P1%GK7N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%PR1S2
%QH7M0%[D6G9%\I3C7%]H2M0%^D1I4%eA5a1%bJ7D6%cO7O2%dQ4R2
)END

Brushing off the 1 ball, rolling behind the stack. Your opponent is unlikely to
contact the 1 ball from here, placing him on 2 fouls. You come in with for
BIH, and have a good chance to get him on 3 fouls, and the win.

In practice, I had a hard time controlling the CB- it usually went one rail
instead of two, and would have left my opponent with a 50% kick off the
side rails at the 1 ball. Getting behind the stack wasn't easy.

IF the incoming player contacts the 1 ball, it's an ugly mess from here.

So I owe an apology to my teacher, and I've learned quite a bit. Thank you all.

Regards, Isshi.

SpiderMan
01-22-2006, 08:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Isshi:</font><hr> Playing 9 ball, if the breaker fails to contact the racked balls, does the
incoming player have the option of playing a safety off the one-ball?

Perhaps two years ago there was a long thread on the type of safety one
could play, brushing off the one, rolling up one or two cushions behind
the barely disturbed stack.

My instructor insisted during our weekly session tonight that (after he had
miscued and missed the stack) I had ball in hand, but that I HAD to drive
four balls to a cushion. (I was about to play a safety and he stopped me.)

He explained that after a foul on a legal break (scratching for example),
a safety option would be fine. But because a legal break had not occurred,
the incoming player was obligated to complete a legal break.

We searched the rule book, and I could not locate a clear explanation for
the situation on the table. He also said that this applies in BCA 8 ball and
9 ball, as well as in Japan. He was a little insistent, so I conceded his
opinion and decided to break from the kitchen.

What's the rule here? Can a safety be played off the rack after an illegal
break?

Best regards, Isshi. <hr /></blockquote>

The two most-commonly-used sets of 9-ball rules are BCA and Texas Express. When I researched it six or seven years ago, here's what I found:

BCA rules allowed you to play a safety off the one-ball if there wasn't a legal break. If the breaker did not contact the one-ball, you would have ball-in-hand to play your safety.

If you were playing Texas Express, the incoming player had a re-rack and break option, similar to the BCA 8-ball rules.

I believe much confusion occurs because many players assume these two common rule sets to treat the break similarly, which is not the case. It sounds as if you were thinking BCA, and your opponent was thinking Texas Express.

SpiderMan

Tom_In_Cincy
01-22-2006, 09:03 PM
In 1999 the BCA adopted the World Pool and Billiards orgainization as the standard for rules.

World Standard Rules (http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules)

Under 8 ball rules (Legal Break)

4.5 LEGAL BREAK SHOT

(Defined) To execute a legal break, the breaker (with the cue ball behind the head string) must either (1) pocket a ball, or (2) drive at least four numbered balls to the rail. When the breaker fails to make a legal break, it is a foul, and the incoming player has the option of (1) accepting the table in position and shooting, or (2) having the balls reracked and having the option of shooting the opening break or allowing the offending player to rebreak.

9 Ball (Break requirements)

5.4 LEGAL BREAK SHOT

The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:

1. The breaker must strike the1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

2. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

3. If on the break shot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not respotted (exception: if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is respotted).

Bottom line: In 9 Ball, if you don't meet the requirements for Break situations, it is a foul. YOU DON'T get to shoot over again.

Isshi
01-22-2006, 10:05 PM
Thank you, Tom.

According to the rules you quoted, a safety may be played by an
incoming player after an illegal break. This discussion has gone
full circle.

The web site says the rules were to be affective from their adoption in
1999 to the end of 2004. Are they still in effect presently?

Could Bob Jewett offer an update on this question?

Best regards, Isshi.

randyg
01-23-2006, 04:34 AM
ROD: I believe that BCA &amp; Tx Ex Rules were very clearly explained by Spiderman. No doubt that the BCA Rule book needs some more help, but hosed up is a little rough.

We have submitted many small changes to Bob Jewett. Looks like we will have a very nice Rule Book to play from......SPF-randyg

Bob_Jewett
01-23-2006, 01:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Isshi:</font><hr> ... The web site says the rules were to be affective from their adoption in 1999 to the end of 2004. Are they still in effect presently?

Could Bob Jewett offer an update on this question?
...<hr /></blockquote>
The major revision of the rules was postponed at the General Assembly last summer. There were some minor changes to the old rules. The major revision may be accepted about next summer.

The World Standardized Rules are on-line at the WPA web site. I think rule 5.4 is the one that applies.

http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules_9ball

Isshi
01-23-2006, 09:04 PM
Thank you sincerely, Mr. Jewett. I appreciate your taking the time to
consider this thread.

My reading of rule 5.4 indicates that the 'incoming player' is not the 'breaker',
and that the 'incoming player' has no obligation to fulfill a legal break. The
incoming player has BIH, and may play a safety.

Is my interpretation of rule 5.4 correct?

Rule 5.4 says in its entirety:

5.4 LEGAL BREAK SHOT

The rules governing the break shot are the same as for other shots except:

1. The breaker must strike the1-ball first and either pocket a ball or drive at least four numbered balls to the rail.

2. If the cue ball is pocketed or driven off the table, or the requirements of the opening break are not met, it is a foul, and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table.

3. If on the break shot, the breaker causes an object ball to jump off the table, it is a foul and the incoming player has cue ball in hand anywhere on the table. The object ball is not respotted (exception: if the object ball is the 9-ball, it is respotted).

(Back to me)

As it happens, my instructor is (I think) a member of the JPBA,
and he has an advance copy of the revised JPBA, rules, scheduled
for release later this year. They are of course written in Japanese,
and I would not be surprised if they differed in some ways from
the World Standardized Rules. This raises political and other
unpleasant aspects of the issue, so I'm not comfortable in
pursuing it further with my instructor. I think he was wrong to
stop me from playing a safety, but I'm hesitant to tell him so.

Best regards, Isshi.

Bob_Jewett
01-24-2006, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Isshi:</font><hr> ...
Is my interpretation of rule 5.4 correct?
...
As it happens, my instructor is (I think) a member of the JPBA,
and he has an advance copy of the revised JPBA, rules, scheduled
for release later this year. ... <hr /></blockquote>
I think your interpretation of the 2005 rules is correct. How about asking your instructor to see the new JPBA rules?

TennesseeJoe
01-30-2006, 10:45 AM
I believe the last line in the Push Out Rule 5.6 states that the incoming player may not push out. Do you read this differently?

5.6 PUSH OUT
The player who shoots the shot immediately after a legal break may play a push out in an attempt to move the cue ball into a better position for the option that follows. On a push out, the cue ball is not required to contact any object ball nor any rail, but all other foul rules still apply. The player must announce the intention of playing a push out before the shot, or the shot is considered to be a normal shot. Any ball pocketed on a push out does not count and remains pocketed except the 9-ball. Following a legal push out, the incoming player is permitted to shoot from that position or to pass the shot back to the player who pushed out. A push out is not considered to be a foul as long as no rule (except Rule 5.7 and Rule 5.8) is violated. An illegal push out is penalized according to the type of foul committed. After a player scratches on the break shot, the incoming player cannot play a push out.

Isshi
01-31-2006, 06:24 AM
Thank you for the contribution to the discussion Joe. However, rule 5.6
is both undisputed and irrelevant. A push out is not a safety.

The key finding of our discussion was that an incoming player after an
illegal break is not obligated to complete a legal break, at least in 9 ball.

Best regards, Isshi.

PS: If all that the pretty girls remembered was my name, it wouldn't seem
to be much comfort.

Stretch
01-31-2006, 07:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Isshi:</font><hr> Thank you for the contribution to the discussion Joe. However, rule 5.6
is both undisputed and irrelevant. A push out is not a safety.

<font color="blue"> </font color>
Isshi my friend, how are you. Thanks for opening up this interesting thread.

The key finding of our discussion was that an incoming player after an
illegal break is not obligated to complete a legal break, at least in 9 ball.

Best regards, Isshi.

Thanks again, now i don't have to read the whole thread since you've done the research /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

PS: If all that the pretty girls remembered was my name, it wouldn't seem
to be much comfort. <hr /></blockquote>

It's a great start though! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif St. ~~ Mr. Wuts-his-name ~~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif