PDA

View Full Version : Transfer of spin to the object ball (from english)

dackjaniels
01-25-2006, 10:03 AM
First post, so a little bit about myself first. I love pool, have been playing for a couple years now, and I am trying to soak up all the information on the game so that I can become a better player. I don't know what it is, but pocketing balls is just so satisfying and it relieves all my stress. I use english on alot of shots, and I am getting much better at placement. I still have alot of trouble on draw however. I also noticed alot of people talking about aiming methods. I have changed mine many times, and over time, have learned to 'feel' when the shot is right. This seems to work pretty good for me, except for really thin cuts, in which case I use the ghost ball.

So a friend and myself were talking about pool the other day. I was telling him about how I read (and have seen on TV) people hit an object ball more full but with outside english so as to 'throw' the ball into the pocket. I tried to explain to him that the spin from the cue ball transfers upon contact to the object ball, and therefore changes the path that it would otherwise take if friction did not exist. I tried to explain to him that this works, and that I use it when I pocket balls with outside english. He told me that it is impossible, and that when I hit the ball on the outside it changes the path of the cueball, and so even though I am aiming more full, the cue ball hits the object ball at the correct angle, and that is why the ball is pocketed. I guess I feel like it is a little bit of both. But I have heard people on TV talk about how you can use spin to hit a ball full (because another object ball is in the way of the correct line of aim) and still pocket the ball.

I just wanted to hear some different opinions on the subject. I have also purchased doctor Dave's book, although I have not gotten that far along in it.

Bob_Jewett
01-25-2006, 11:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dackjaniels:</font><hr> ... I tried to explain to him that the spin from the cue ball transfers upon contact to the object ball, and therefore changes the path that it would otherwise take if friction did not exist. I tried to explain to him that this works, and that I use it when I pocket balls with outside english. He told me that it is impossible, and that when I hit the ball on the outside it changes the path of the cueball, and so even though I am aiming more full, the cue ball hits the object ball at the correct angle, and that is why the ball is pocketed. I guess I feel like it is a little bit of both. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Your friend is confused and/or ignorant. There are lots of demonstrations of throw. "Throw" is the effect of the surface of the cue ball rubbing on the object ball and sending it off on a path different from the line joining their centers at the instant of contact. This also applies to object balls in combination shots. Now, you may say that the object ball won't have much spin on it, but what is important is the relative motion of the two surfaces, so if the first object ball in a combination is moving left-to-right across the second object ball, it will drag the second ball a little to the right. Many people have a hard time connecting the throw seen from a spinning cue ball with the throw due to "relative motion rubbing to the side" of combinations, but they are fundamentally the same phenomenon.

Billy_Bob
01-25-2006, 12:33 PM
Welcome!

Sounds like you are willing to learn a lot and practice.

So just keep asking questions here and in a few years, you should see a lot of improvement. I warn you that when you learn new things, you might go into a slump for awhile, but then you will come out of it and play better than ever. But slumps are good in that it is a sign you are learning. If you hang around here, there will be plenty of slumps because there is lots to learn!

For draw, in general slow down and follow through so your tip stops 6 inches past where the cue ball is and is touching the cloth. You can shoot quite slow and get draw. Chalk well before each draw shot, especially around the edges of the tip. Practice draw shots daily. Line up a row of balls between the center pockets, place cue ball 1 diamond back. Practice drawing CB 1 diamond back, 2, 3, etc. Do this daily. After a year of daily practice, drawing will be fun! The secret to consistent draw is a tip which has a consistent surface condition and a consistent amount of chalk applied. I use a sandpaper shaper to lightly sand my tip about once a week. This keeps away those shiny dark spots on the tip which are "draw killers". Examine your tip under the light after chalking (especially around edges) to be sure there are no dark spots.

For aiming, I do best by "feel" or "muscle memory" as well. And you do this by shooting the same shot a zillion times. You walk up to the table and "see" the alignment. Can't miss! And you can get this from just playing a lot or shooting a specific shot 100 times (mark table with chalk where balls go and shoot same exact shot over and over). I tried "aiming" for every shot once, but my brain wore out after 3 games.

For cut shots, if the CB is hit dead center, when it hits the OB, there is a bit of friction between the balls. This friction makes the object ball "slide" a bit. This will change with how clean the balls are and humidity. Around here we had 3 months of dry weather. Then it rained. I went to a tournament that night and *everybody* was off on their cut shots! (This was at a place which never cleaned their balls.)

A good example of this friction is to place an object ball about 1/2 inch off the rail near the center pocket. Cut it into the corner pocket. Notice how it slides toward the rail. If you use outside english on this shot, the CB is rotating in a manner that it will not cause friction on the object ball. So no sliding toward the rail. If you use inside english, there will be a lot of sliding of the object ball toward the rail.

So set up the same exact shot and mark the spots where the CB and OB go. Then try center, outside english, and inside english. Mark the line where the CB goes with chalk to be sure the CB is traveling along the same line when you are using english. Might want to video tape it and play it back in slow motion. Then you can see better what is happening.

So far as using english, with a regular cue, there is a thing called cue ball deflection of "squirt". When the tip of your cue hits the CB, it causes the CB to slide a bit to the opposite side. Shoot with the CB only and shoot it at the far center diamond. Then do same shot with left/right english. Then fast shots doing same. Does CB always hit same spot on rail?

It has been my experience that when using english with a "regular shaft" and shooting a long shot, the CB might be off a 1/2 inch or more by the time it reaches the other end of the table. Also a spinning cue ball will tend to curve.

A way to solve this problem is to use the "pivot point" of a cue and "back hand english". With regular cues/shafts, this is about 10 inches back. So aim dead center at the far center diamond while using a 10 inch bridge. Then move just your back hand to apply english. See if cue ball goes to same spot as a dead center hit. Also try 8, 9, or 11 inches. See what works best.

If you want to read the science behind all this, read the following. Skip the math and go to page 10 where it says "Squirt Measurements".

Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Cue Ball Squirt, But Were Afraid to Ask...
http://www.sfbilliards.com/Shepard_squirt.pdf

I had this problem with using english on long shots and fixed it by sometimes being able to use a 10 inch bridge and back hand english. But sometimes the CB was near a rail and I could not use a 10 inch bridge. I fixed this problem by getting a "low deflection" Predator 314 shaft. With this shaft on my cue, I can aim dead center, then move just my front hand (while leaving my back hand in place) to apply english. Then the CB goes to the same spot as a dead center hit. And this works in all situations. But a low deflection shaft changes everything! It took me a year to adjust my "muscle memory" to this new shaft as I had to aim differently. Some people who have been playing for 10 or 20 years might be best to stick with a regular shaft.

Also so far as using english, I avoid using it unless absolutely necessary. With cut shots, even though the CB is going to the same spot as a dead center hit, the spinning CB will alter the path of the OB as discussed above. So an adjustment in aim is required. I can do a *lot* with follow, stun, or draw so far as leaving the CB in a good spot after a shot, so using english is seldom necessary.

So far as Dr. Dave's information... Get his DVD. A book just can't communicate what he is teaching. I got his DVD and saw the various shots demonstrated. Everything clicked! And this stuff is useful for every shot. At one time I would scratch about three times per game. Last night I played about 8 games and scratched only once. This is thanks to Dr. Dave and his 30 and 90 degree rules. Also once you understand the basic principles of Dr. Dave's DVD, and practice them, it opens up a whole new world of playing. Avoiding scratches and getting the cue ball to go where you want. Of course after learning this stuff, it then takes years of playing to integrate what you have learned into your game. With myself, I knew what was possible, but actually doing it takes a lot of practice.

Jal
01-25-2006, 04:42 PM
I also agree with you, but just one clarification, maybe. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by the following:

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dackjaniels:</font><hr>...I tried to explain to him that the spin from the cue ball transfers upon contact to the object ball, and therefore changes the path that it would otherwise take if friction did not exist.<hr /></blockquote>Just to be certain, I'd like to emphasize that it's not the transfered spin that changes the direction of the object ball. The change takes place while the object ball and cueball are in contact with each other. The spin the object ball picks up does not really affect its path unless the cueball is somewhat in the air, as with a jump shot. This tilts the spin axis of the object ball away from perfectly vertical, and this will cause it to curve a little. Most shots are slight jump shots because the cue is not parallel to the playing surface, but for a typical shot I don't believe the effect is noticeable, if present at all.

The cueball does curve when sidespin is placed on it. This is because its spin axis is generally tilted due to the fact that one is shooting down on it a bit.

Welcome to the forum and I hope you don't think I'm nitpicking (which I am). At any rate, you were right and your friend was wrong.

Jim

cushioncrawler
01-26-2006, 01:16 AM
G'day dackjaniels.
.......I hav a throw shot that i praktis. Place the qball &amp; objektball about 1 ball apart, &amp; aligned say 1 in 8 left of a korner pocket. Aim az if to hit the OB dead center, slowly, uzing lots of left hand side. The QB kontakts the OB a bit left of center -- the OB iz thrown ryht &amp; fallz. The QB runz throo a small distance.
.......In theory, the throw kanbe az much az say 1 in 16 -- so about a half of the OB'z angle here woz probably due to the left of center kontakt, ie due to swerv.
.......Alternatively, ukan simply kut the OB in, hitting the QB dead center (uzing zero spin). But, here, the QB goze to the other end of the table.
.......If there woz no such thing az throw, then QB spin would make zero difference to the QB'z departure angle for the abov 2 examplez, nor for any other examplez (PROOF).

.......This sort of shot iz good praktis for avoiding a foul when the ballz are klose -- often a quarterball gap iz not a problem with praktis -- whereaz the kut-shot iz uzually impossible (more PROOF).

.......But superspin kan be a worry. A little bit of running kan eliminate the bad OB angle rezulting from a kick -- ie if u play the kut-shot (with zero side) the OB hits the left jaw (here). But, if u get a kick whilst uzing superspin (running here), the OB throwz a mile &amp; missez the pocket (on the ryht this time). I guess that theze extra komments support the throw story (more PROOF).

.......Woz it Bob Jewett that sed (quite rightly) that uzing side (woz it running or check??) on the OB woz asking for a kick ??? -- a bit like putting yor wedding tackle in a lion'z mouth &amp; flicking its testiklez with a wet towell.

dr_dave
01-27-2006, 10:17 AM
dackjaniels (cute name ... I like it),

Welcome to the CCB!

FYI, there have been lots of past discussions here on these topics that you might be interested in. See the links under "English - transfer" and "throw" in the threads summary area of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) (that is, after you are done reading that great book you mentioned you have /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif ).

FYI, I also have several video demonstrations (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/index.html) and high-speed (super-slow-motion) video clips (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html) (mostly under the "Chapter 4" heading") that show throw shots and throw and spin transfer effects.

Dr. Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dackjaniels:</font><hr> First post, so a little bit about myself first. I love pool, have been playing for a couple years now, and I am trying to soak up all the information on the game so that I can become a better player. I don't know what it is, but pocketing balls is just so satisfying and it relieves all my stress. I use english on alot of shots, and I am getting much better at placement. I still have alot of trouble on draw however. I also noticed alot of people talking about aiming methods. I have changed mine many times, and over time, have learned to 'feel' when the shot is right. This seems to work pretty good for me, except for really thin cuts, in which case I use the ghost ball.

So a friend and myself were talking about pool the other day. I was telling him about how I read (and have seen on TV) people hit an object ball more full but with outside english so as to 'throw' the ball into the pocket. I tried to explain to him that the spin from the cue ball transfers upon contact to the object ball, and therefore changes the path that it would otherwise take if friction did not exist. I tried to explain to him that this works, and that I use it when I pocket balls with outside english. He told me that it is impossible, and that when I hit the ball on the outside it changes the path of the cueball, and so even though I am aiming more full, the cue ball hits the object ball at the correct angle, and that is why the ball is pocketed. I guess I feel like it is a little bit of both. But I have heard people on TV talk about how you can use spin to hit a ball full (because another object ball is in the way of the correct line of aim) and still pocket the ball.

I just wanted to hear some different opinions on the subject. I have also purchased doctor Dave's book, although I have not gotten that far along in it. <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
01-27-2006, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>So far as Dr. Dave's information... Get his DVD. A book just can't communicate what he is teaching. I got his DVD and saw the various shots demonstrated. Everything clicked! And this stuff is useful for every shot. At one time I would scratch about three times per game. Last night I played about 8 games and scratched only once. This is thanks to Dr. Dave and his 30 and 90 degree rules. Also once you understand the basic principles of Dr. Dave's DVD, and practice them, it opens up a whole new world of playing. Avoiding scratches and getting the cue ball to go where you want. Of course after learning this stuff, it then takes years of playing to integrate what you have learned into your game. With myself, I knew what was possible, but actually doing it takes a lot of practice.<hr /></blockquote>

Billy_Bob,

Thank you so much for such a flattering review. I'm glad you have found my presentation style and information useful in your game.

I also want to let everybody else know that I have not paid you (with money, free products, or any other type of "bribe") for your generous endorsement. In fact, I don't think I've even met you before ... have I? If we do meet, please remind me that I at least owe you a beer for your kind and supportive words.

Regards,
Dave