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jayzoll
01-31-2006, 03:06 PM
I shot an older gentleman last night in league that pounded me with an arsenal of lethal bank shots. HE DIDN'T MISS!! It really was something to see. Even when I layed down a good defensive shot, his kicks were something to see.

After the match, I asked him how he learned banking/kickind. He told me he 'used' the mirror system. But it probably wasn't the mirror system I was aware of. He then went on talking about a fellow he knew a few years back that had actual mirrors tucked under the rails of his table.

Unfortunately his friend passed away, that gentleman doesn't know where he got these mirrors from. I used search engines for half the day today trying to find out any info I could about this. Also, checked a ton of billiard retailers websites. I came up empty.

Can anyone shed some light on this topic??

Thanks~Jay

SPetty
01-31-2006, 03:20 PM
I've heard of them, and think I've even seen pictures of them. This is all I could find:

web page (http://www.barenada.com/gimcracks.shtml)

Mirror Banking Thingies

I think these were made by CueSight but I don't see them on their site so I'm not sure. This is a set of six mirrors that you put under each rail. Then if you hold your head just right you can see the mirror-images of the pockets you're banking at. They don't interfere with the balls and they're really quite cool. Unfortuately, here on planet Earth, banks don't behave like light rays bouncing off mirrors, so these mirror thingies can only be used for very soft shots.

and this one which confirms the CueSight reference:
web page (http://www.webenglish.com.tw/sites/Shopping/Sports/Billiards/CuesandCueCases/)

CueSight - Manufacturer of billiards training aids, including laser pool cue sticks and banking mirrors for pool tables.

nAz
01-31-2006, 03:36 PM
I remember seeing an ad for it in a inside pool Mag. a year or two ago... think it was called the "Pool table rail-mirror" doohickey /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif don't remember seeing it at the last Valley expo, not sure if it's still in production. when i saw the ad i had to admit that it looked promising in aiding a persons banking abilities, i would like to have tried it.

Bob_Jewett
01-31-2006, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jayzoll:</font><hr>...
Can anyone shed some light on this topic??

Thanks~Jay <hr /></blockquote>
These were at a BCA Trade Show several years ago. The first thing to realize is that the mirrors are in the wrong place. They are back too far. This makes a major difference in where the pocket image is.

The second problem is that when you shot hard, you would hit the mirrors. Maybe this can be fixed, but it probably requires putting the mirrors even further back.

If you are interested in using an exact mirror system for banking, it is easy to put a target where the mirrored pocket would be. This has been covered in a couple of articles in Billiards Digest. If you want to have an actual mirror to look into, contact Bart Mahoney who made a mirror holder that could put the mirror in just the right place.

But mostly, you need to learn to bank by feel. There are too many variables. Get Freddy's book for suggestions.

jayzoll
02-01-2006, 07:35 AM
Thank you all...I am making my first trip out to Valley Forge this year so I will be sure to keep an eye out for them.

Bob-I bank by feel, but my feel needs some more experience. Haha. I actually ordered Racking Secrets and Freddie's book from accu-stats a few days ago. I can't wait to get them.

Oh, I just realized that there that you are Pettys Point!! You have a very nice pool room at your house. I am sure 'yins' really enjoy something you've worked very hard for.

Thanks again

iacas
02-01-2006, 10:09 AM
It's my understanding that you rarely aim at a perfect mirror image anyway - speed, English, etc. affect whether a ball banks short or long (even cloth age), so the mirrors tucked under (and back) of the rails - away from the true center (the gutter) - would just require a little more compensation on top of ten other compensations you have to make anyway, right?

Still seems like a valid idea to me. They'd at least gets you close to the right area...

dr_dave
02-01-2006, 11:50 AM
Jay,

As Bob points out, if the mirrors are under the rails they are too far back. A better solution would be to glue a rectangular mirror (you can get one cut a a glass shot) to a wood block that you or a friend can place against (and even slide along) the rail while you are aiming the shot. The block thickness should be 1/2 a ball diameter (1 1/8 inches). That way the mirror surface (on the back of the glass) will be in the rail grove. For more info, see Chapter 6 in "The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards" (if you have a copy).

Regards,
Dr. Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jayzoll:</font><hr> I shot an older gentleman last night in league that pounded me with an arsenal of lethal bank shots. HE DIDN'T MISS!! It really was something to see. Even when I layed down a good defensive shot, his kicks were something to see.

After the match, I asked him how he learned banking/kickind. He told me he 'used' the mirror system. But it probably wasn't the mirror system I was aware of. He then went on talking about a fellow he knew a few years back that had actual mirrors tucked under the rails of his table.

Unfortunately his friend passed away, that gentleman doesn't know where he got these mirrors from. I used search engines for half the day today trying to find out any info I could about this. Also, checked a ton of billiard retailers websites. I came up empty.

Can anyone shed some light on this topic??

Thanks~Jay <hr /></blockquote>

Bob_Jewett
02-01-2006, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... A better solution would be to glue a rectangular mirror (you can get one cut a a glass shot) to a wood block that you or a friend can place against (and even slide along) the rail while you are aiming the shot. The block thickness should be 1/2 a ball diameter (1 1/8 inches). ... <hr /></blockquote>
This is more or less the device that Bart Mahoney was selling except Bart's mirror was raised on legs so you could leave it in place while you shot. It has several other uses besides mirror-system banking.

wolfdancer
02-01-2006, 12:30 PM
Jay, Bart Mahoney, from the Sacto area was marketing a mirror,banking device that he designed. We had one at the pool hall, that we let players practice with.Bart's a good player, BCA certified instructor, and H.S. teacher, who's managed to have Pool instruction added to the local H.S. sports program. Tom-in-Cincy...might be able to contact Bart, and see if they are still available.
Without actual mirrors to use as a visual aid....you have to visualise a table of equal diminsions alongside the table that you are playing on.....and aim for that imaginary pocket opposite the one you are trying to bank into
It makes sense when you realise it then just becomes a 1/2 bank.
One way to do this, if like me, you are poor at visualization...is to use your cue as a measuring device....go to the pocket directly across from the one you will be banking set your fingers to hold the cue at an equal distance to the width of the playing surface, and sight backwards through that point to the O.B ball.....the spot that it crosses the rail will be your aiming point....but you'll also have to adjust for collision induced throw, and acquired english.
Anothe way to bank is to take the nearest exact line to the pocket. Say your ball lays near the 3rd diamond....or 3 to 1 1/2 banking line to the pocket. If you are 2 inches from this aiming line....your aim would be 1 inch from that 3 to 1 1/2 line.
Maybe a better idea is to buy the "Banking With the Beard"
book, since there are so many variables in banking that just relying on the mirror system alone.....won't do it

curt
02-01-2006, 01:50 PM
I have a set of rail mirrors from Cuesight for a 7' table that I would sell for $50 if anyone is interested. They have barely been used, if at all, and are in their original packaging

dr_dave
02-01-2006, 02:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ... A better solution would be to glue a rectangular mirror (you can get one cut a a glass shot) to a wood block that you or a friend can place against (and even slide along) the rail while you are aiming the shot. The block thickness should be 1/2 a ball diameter (1 1/8 inches). ... <hr /></blockquote>
This is more or less the device that Bart Mahoney was selling except Bart's mirror was raised on legs so you could leave it in place while you shot. It has several other uses besides mirror-system banking. <hr /></blockquote>
Ok, I'll take the bait. What are some of the other uses?

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-01-2006, 02:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Maybe a better idea is to buy the "Banking With the Beard" book, since there are so many variables in banking that just relying on the mirror system alone.....won't do it<hr /></blockquote>
wolfdancer,

You make some good points here. Freddy's book is awesome and is a must read. Also, if speed, English, spin, and angle effects are not taken into consideration, most banking and kicking systems are of little practical use. I dedicated an entire chapter to banking systems and most of the important effects in "The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards." Freddy has a whole book dedicated to the topic.

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
02-01-2006, 03:38 PM
Dr. Dave, I haven't read all of Freddie's book yet,but one tip i picked up on some crossing banks, that I used to bank long, not realising that there was acquired english....that alone was worth the price of the book.
I bought your DVD some time ago.....and still haven't uncovered all it's "secrets" either.
Here's an interesting paradox.....most relatively new players to the game, know little about banking techniques, yet elect to bank, cutable balls......the player with banking knowledge, will usually take the cut shot.
Freddies book may not be 100% accurate, and the chapter on cloth nap not applicable anymore....but as you say, a must read for any enthusiast.
Freddie, didn't do too well in the Banks tournament at Derby City, but lots of players were missing short due to the cloth, heat from the lights, etc.

dr_dave
02-01-2006, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I haven't read all of Freddie's book yet,but one tip i picked up on some crossing banks, that I used to bank long, not realising that there was acquired english....that alone was worth the price of the book.<hr /></blockquote>
You are right. The difference between outside and inside cut banks is very important. I also cover this in my book.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I bought your DVD some time ago.....and still haven't uncovered all it's "secrets" either.<hr /></blockquote>
I hope you are looking at my book also, and not just the DVD. The book contains much more information and examples.

Regards,
Dave

Scott Lee
02-01-2006, 08:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Ok, I'll take the bait. What are some of the other uses?

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Another obvious use, would be to check your alignment. We use mirrors at Cue Tech for this, and other purposes (such as checking your swing, knuckle position, etc). I'm sure Bart uses his mirror for some of the same purposes.

Scott Lee

caedos
02-01-2006, 09:24 PM
To follow Scott,

Alignment, stroke delivery (mechanics) profile, stroke delivery in-line, eye-patterns, and narcissism!

Ozz

Larry
03-22-2006, 06:44 AM
Curt, Do you still have the used set of under the rail mirrors?

curt
03-25-2006, 07:56 PM
Larry, Yes I do, Curt