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Billy_Bob
02-03-2006, 10:54 AM
I was in a heated 8-ball match last night - a match I could not afford to lose....

At one point (before making any shots) I found myself circling 'round and 'round the table, inspecting each ball I had left on the table - being darn sure I could make each ball into a pocket (not blocked) - picturing in my mind how I would leave position after each shot, etc.

So then I would make a shot, then begin my "circling behavior" again, to double check that everything would go according to plan. I was going in for the kill!

I wonder if this is where the term "shark" came from? (Players who circle 'round and 'round the table.)

wolfdancer
02-03-2006, 11:11 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I wonder if this is where the term "shark" came from? (Players who circle 'round and 'round the table.)
<hr /></blockquote>
Not sure about that...but it might be the reason they have shot clocks

TennesseeJoe
02-03-2006, 01:59 PM
That sounds good but I was always told that a shark goes in and tries to win as fast as possible and make a sure kill. A hustler on the other hand stalls, lies, cheats and hides his speed to go for more scores later on.

SpiderMan
02-03-2006, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> I was in a heated 8-ball match last night - a match I could not afford to lose....

At one point (before making any shots) I found myself circling 'round and 'round the table, inspecting each ball I had left on the table - being darn sure I could make each ball into a pocket (not blocked) - picturing in my mind how I would leave position after each shot, etc.

So then I would make a shot, then begin my "circling behavior" again, to double check that everything would go according to plan. I was going in for the kill!

I wonder if this is where the term "shark" came from? (Players who circle 'round and 'round the table.)
<hr /></blockquote>

Billy Bob,

In common pool vernacular, "shark" is used as both a noun (referring to a skillful player who may or may not try to hide his ability) and verb (referring to the practice of creating a distraction to spoil your opponent's play).

Noun: "Watch out, that guy's a shark!"

Verb: "He sharked me by farting just before I shot."

Sounds like you may be referring to the noun usage, ie the skillful player. I don't think table-circling, especially among experienced players, is a common-enough trait to have spawned the term. My own analogy for the "shark" is "one who eats smaller fish".

SpiderMan

Stretch
02-03-2006, 03:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

I wonder if this is where the term "shark" came from? (Players who circle 'round and 'round the table.)
<hr /></blockquote>
Not sure about that...but it might be the reason they have shot clocks
<hr /></blockquote>

LMFAO Wolf yer killin me /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PoolSharkAllen
02-03-2006, 06:51 PM
At one point (before making any shots) I found myself circling 'round and 'round the table, inspecting each ball I had left on the table - being darn sure I could make each ball into a pocket (not blocked) - picturing in my mind how I would leave position after each shot, etc.

So then I would make a shot, then begin my "circling behavior" again, to double check that everything would go according to plan. I was going in for the kill!

----------------------------

Ahem! I don't think that a pool shark should be confused with hustlers. A pool shark metaphorically goes in for the kill when there's blood in the water! Nor does it follow that a pool shark engages in sharking behaviors.

Circling the table once or perhaps twice is fine as it indicates that you're looking at the table and thinking about a plan of action. However, I think circling the table repeatedly after every shot reflects a lack of confidence or nervousness more than anything else.

Sid_Vicious
02-03-2006, 10:19 PM
"I wonder if this is where the term "shark" came from? (Players who circle 'round and 'round the table.)

"Sharks circle the room, and PHs in the city." When they are playing, the teeth gnashing lets you know who and what they are"...sid

cueball1950
02-03-2006, 11:34 PM
Wolf.....shot clocks came into existance because of a player neamed Frank taberski who also happened to be from my area. (Schenectady NY) Frank would shoot a shot (14.1 mind you) walk around the table several times play another shot and so on and so on. it is told that he once played a 200 point match that took over 5 hours. I believe ####leonard can verify this about Frank and shed more light about him. And Frank was a several times over World Champion. No i am not insunating they are from the same era (lololol) but butch is quite the historian on pool in this area....mike

PoolSharkAllen
02-03-2006, 11:46 PM
In Googling the term "pool shark," I did find the following definitions:
1. Shark: as in, "He sharked me!". To shark someone is to distract them while they are in the act of shooting. 2nd definition is a "Pool Shark" - basically, your pool hustler.

2. Pool shark has come to mean prowess at pool, but it's original definition is one who intentionally misleads someone about their chances for success and then takes all their money. (As you know, the lead character Fast Eddie Felson (Paul Newman) is a pool shark in "The Hustler" movie.)

Perhaps associating shark behavior with someone circling a pool table is a little bit of an exageration? Lots of animals circle their prey before going in for the kill.

My two cents worth! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Snapshot9
02-04-2006, 03:37 AM
Personally, I think someone that is good can inspect the table within 5 seconds and know what they want to do.

Sid_Vicious
02-04-2006, 09:53 AM
I've found most of, if not every one of the sharks hiding their skills, hesitate little or none when the kill is in place. Only hesitation is usually for deception...sid

heater451
02-04-2006, 10:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolSharkAllen:</font><hr> . . .Circling the table once or perhaps twice is fine as it indicates that you're looking at the table and thinking about a plan of action. However, I think circling the table repeatedly after every shot reflects a lack of confidence or nervousness more than anything else. <hr /></blockquote>
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr>Personally, I think someone that is good can inspect the table within 5 seconds and know what they want to do.<hr /></blockquote>There's also something to be said about circling the table, because you might see shots that you hadn't considered ("look at everything"). Alternatively, you might see a shot in your planned run-out, that isn't potable, although it looks that way from the other end of the table.

Unless it breaks your rhythm to do so, I doubt circling the table will hurt.



==============================

PoolSharkAllen
02-04-2006, 10:13 AM
shot clocks came into existance because of a player named Frank taberski who also happened to be from my area. (Schenectady NY) Frank would shoot a shot (14.1 mind you) walk around the table several times play another shot and so on and so on. it is told that he once played a 200 point match that took over 5 hours.

-------------
I recollect reading about this incident with Taberski in a book about a hustler called Danny McGirty. While playing 14.1, Taberski took 20 minutes to evaluate a shot and then before taking his shot, he said he had to go to the bathroom, thus delaying the game even more.

Back to BillyBob's original comment about circling the table: I consider the extreme circling behavior that BillyBob engaged in to be a form of sharking. The net effect was that the pace of the game was slowed down considerably, and probably annoyed his opponent with his delaying tactics. http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/images/icons/cool.gif
cool

Billy_Bob
02-04-2006, 10:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> There's also something to be said about circling the table, because you might see shots that you hadn't considered ("look at everything")...<hr /></blockquote>

Yes, that is it exactly. I have made the mistake in the past of not looking at future shots from the viewpoint of where I will be leaving the cue ball. Then I leave the cue ball where it looks like it will work from the opposite view, but then when I go to shoot the next shot, I see there is a problem.

Also looking at all my future shots in "3D" from different angles helps me to picture in my mind exactly where I need to leave the cue ball for each next shot.

And then double checking after each shot or "confirming" that my plan is going to work.

BTW I was doing this fairly fast. About 5 seconds to walk around the table and get a picture in my mind of everything.

Also this is a lot of work! I don't do this when playing for fun because I would rather relax a bit and have fun.

DSAPOLIS
02-04-2006, 09:05 PM
I teach this "circling the table" method to all the players I coach. It relieves tension and it also allows you to see the table and the layout from all angles. If there is no shot clock, then it is also an opportunity to keep your opponent cringing in his/her chair for longer than they want to be there. It is a two way mental tactic. Some approve of it, some dislike it. No matter what, it IS effective.

snook
02-04-2006, 10:50 PM
effective yes?

but i prefer to turn off pool on my tv if it involves 'kid delicious' because i hate watching him play...

besides having dumb attire (his saw II shirt in the skins match), his personal habits drive me up the wall and i can stand to watch him.

but i will admit he is a phenominal player

walt8880
02-05-2006, 12:23 AM
I also "circle" the table and look at a shot from all angles before proceeding. I do it for my own benefit and not as a delay tactic to bother my opponent.

I find that if I look at a shot from both sides, I can form a mental picture of what is going to happen and execute better. I tend not to overlook things that I might not see by just shooting the shot at hand and I miss fewer of the "easy" shots that you curse yourself for not making.

I watched Ralf Souquet very closely in an exhibition last fall and he surveyed each shot from all sides before shooting.

My time is measured in seconds and not minutes but is certainly longer than the 5 seconds mentioned above. My old brain just doesn't work that fast any more.

I will take even longer if trying to calculate a multi rail kick or bank.

OldieToo
02-05-2006, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;

I wonder if this is where the term "shark" came from? (Players who circle 'round and 'round the table.)
<hr /></blockquote>
Not sure about that...but it might be the reason they have shot clocks
<hr /></blockquote>No kidding....That's my opinion too...hahaha /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Scott Lee
02-05-2006, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DSAPOLIS:</font><hr> I teach this "circling the table" method to all the players I coach. It relieves tension and it also allows you to see the table and the layout from all angles. If there is no shot clock, then it is also an opportunity to keep your opponent cringing in his/her chair for longer than they want to be there. It is a two way mental tactic. Some approve of it, some dislike it. No matter what, it IS effective. <hr /></blockquote>

I also teach this pattern of looking at the lay of the table from all four sides, constantly, as you work the table. I agree with Dave 100%, that it is extremely effective, and NECESSARY, to learn better position play skills. IMO, it the only way a player will ever completely integrate "3rd ball position play" into the core of their game, which is the cornerstone to improve game playing skills overall.

Scott Lee

wolfdancer
02-05-2006, 11:26 AM
Say, if you guys are going to teach people to dance around the table after each shot, like George Kosmo (Cosmo?)maybe you ought to throw in a roller skating lesson as well, to speed the game up a bit. some of us like to finish a tournament before they turn the street lights off. I for one, have to get up early in the morn....the liquor stores open at nine, and I like to get there before the line builds up, or they sell out.
The problem I see, is if they miss a shot, or shape.....they might think they didn't pirouette arond the table enough.
Even Boris Spassky, faced with thousnds of decisions, could get a "shot" off, in under a minute.
http://www.newmusicbox.org/61/images/pocketwatch_250x212.jpg

Deeman3
02-05-2006, 12:01 PM
Wolf,

I think if was Tom Cosmo but I agree with you. I will walk around and look at a shot when needed but doing the Texas two step on every shot is just a sharking move, IMO.

Deeman
Too fat to dance like Cosmo...but like to shoot a Cosmo...

wolfdancer
02-05-2006, 12:14 PM
I'd guess you would have to be over 50....to know the origin of a "Cosmo"

Deeman3
02-05-2006, 12:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I'd guess you would have to be over 50....to know the origin of a "Cosmo" <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Yep,

We tell our age in a lot of things, don't we? In reality, I never even saw Cosmo but listened to hours and hours of Fats telling about him. It obviouly had to be a pretty easy out for Tom to run out.....</font color>

Deeman

DickLeonard
02-06-2006, 07:24 AM
Cueball 1950, Mike rumor had it that Frank Taberski had Ralp Greenleaf's number. He won most of his title's during Greenleafs era, his style of play was slow,deliberate,exscrusiatingly slow.

I have a tape of Greenleaf playing Rudolph., Rudolph broke and Ralph just stepped to the table and played a combination in the rack with no examining the rack. He missed the shot and and lost to Rudolph. It looked like he was dumping the game.####

supergreenman
02-06-2006, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Say, if you guys are going to teach people to dance around the table after each shot, like George Kosmo (Cosmo?)maybe you ought to throw in a roller skating lesson as well, to speed the game up a bit. some of us like to finish a tournament before they turn the street lights off.<hr /></blockquote>

I think if I had an apponent wearing grooves in the floor like a marble in a roullette wheel I'd be tempted to stick out my foot the next time he came around my side of the table.

yours for temptations that make life interesting.

James

Deeman3
02-06-2006, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote supergreenman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Say, if you guys are going to teach people to dance around the table after each shot, like George Kosmo (Cosmo?)maybe you ought to throw in a roller skating lesson as well, to speed the game up a bit. some of us like to finish a tournament before they turn the street lights off.<hr /></blockquote>

I think if I had an apponent wearing grooves in the floor like a marble in a roullette wheel I'd be tempted to stick out my foot the next time he came around my side of the table.

yours for temptations that make life interesting.

James <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

A very good young player in Detroit (I can't remember his name now 1999 or so) used to walk around the table on his hands. I remember him winning a few bets this way. Of course, he was NOT playing at the time. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>


Deeman

DickLeonard
02-06-2006, 09:17 AM
Cueball1950 Joe Canton was a circling the table player only he was close to running around the table. The one thing he did that I would copy was he was stroking the cue while walking around the table so when he got down on the shot it was one,two shoot.

His best story of that was when he was on the Road with the "Farmer',Norman Webber. Farmer had gotten stuck for 200 playing nineball and Joe was playing a game of straight pool for the 200 when the houseman not our Houseman announce that closing time was in 15 minutes promptly at 12 pm. Joe needed 73 ball at that time and was shooting. The game was over at 11:55.####

DickLeonard
02-06-2006, 09:31 AM
Deeman I had met Tommy at tournaments in the 60s. At the qualifer for the Worlds Tourney his game with Steve Mizerak was rescheduled and he wasn't notified. They finally located him and he came rushing into to the Roosevelt Ballroom hit balls for 10 minutes and Steve clobbered him. After the game in the warmup room he entertained the spectators with his comic routine and how he was rushed into play while Big Steve was Rehearsing in the practice room.

I had seen his Posters but never seen his Show but from what I saw that day he must have been entertaining.####

wolfdancer
02-06-2006, 10:12 AM
Dee, I'm just against slow play...walking around the table is fine...."circling the table"....how many trips does that involve?
I was thinking you could tell your opponent "I'll be at the bar,signal when you're ready to shoot" or take a bathroom break, and take with you, your copy of the first book ever on pool strategy ..Sun Tsu's "The Art of Pool"
Here's a few ideas from the book:

Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in pool,
cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.
In pool then, let your great object be victory,
not lengthy games.
If you know the enemy and know yourself,
you need not fear the result of a hundred matches. If you know yourself but not the enemy,
for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat.
If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will
succumb in every battle.
One may know how to conquer
without being able to do it.
Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on
the opponent, but does not allow the opponent's will to be imposed on him.
If equally matched, we can offer battle;
if slightly inferior, we can avoid the player;
if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.

Fran Crimi
02-06-2006, 10:22 AM
Here's how it works. If you're a lousy position player, or if you're extremely nervous, yes, you may need to walk around the table after every shot. Watch the pros. When they approach the table for the first time, they may spend a few extra seconds surveying the table. Then you may see them shoot 3 or 4 shots in a row without walking around. That means they're getting the cb where they planned and they don't feel they have to double-check or second guess their initial findings.

Depending on the situation, they may also decide to stop and survey the situaion again after they pocket a certain ball, since the situation may call for that. For example: Tony Robles approaches the table. He decides that there's potential trouble getting to the 7 ball so he will stop and re-evaluate the situaion after he pockets the 4-ball. He made that decision before he even shot the 1-ball.

If a player is extremely nervous, their short-term memory goes to hell, as their minds are loaded with distractions and they will quickly forget what they just observed. In that case, you may see them double and triple-checking themselves.

Fran

Billy_Bob
02-06-2006, 10:23 AM
I'll tell you a couple of things about what happens if you don't look at your next shot from where you will be shooting it...

One thing I will do if not walking down to the end of the table to look at my next shot, is that I will see the shot at the far end of the table, then use follow to leave the cue ball down there, then when I go to shoot (and walk down to the end of the table) I see that the OB is blocked slightly by another ball! I feel silly for not looking in advance.

Or if leaving the cue ball after my shot to get position on my next shot going the opposite direction, I'll leave it with the proper cut angle to get position on the ball after that, but the angle will be opposite of what it should be! This is because I was looking at it backwards. Had I walked down and looked at my next shot prior to shooting, I would have seen my error and switched the angle.

wolfdancer
02-06-2006, 01:16 PM
BB, don't take anything personal re: this thread.
There's many a time, I should have walked to the other end of the table, but didn't......but I do look at most kick shots backwards, or from the other end.
I've seen tournaments and league matches, that couldn't be finished on the scheduled day, because of slow play.
I think you can over analyze a table,to the point where you can't make up your mind.
It's too bad you can't see Mark Edwards, from this area, play pool. He takes about 5 seconds between shots, and very seldom misses a ball....And I've seen him beat the best player here, three times in a row.
On the other end of the spectrum, I timed it, and waited over 10 minutes for a player to shoot.....and she had ball in hand.....she did make the shot though, but missed the next one.
Circling after each and every shot.......sounds like a l-o-o-o-o-n-g game.
And since I gather from your posts....that you are the best player in your area, they'll all be copying that.....

Eric.
02-06-2006, 03:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>

At one point (before making any shots) I found myself circling 'round and 'round the table, inspecting each ball I had left on the table - being darn sure I could make each ball into a pocket (not blocked) - picturing in my mind how I would leave position after each shot, etc.

So then I would make a shot, then begin my "circling behavior" again,...
<hr /></blockquote>


You're making me dizzy. Let me know when you stop (or fall over) /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Eric

Vagabond
02-07-2006, 06:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>

I wonder if this is where the term "shark" came from? (Players who circle 'round and 'round the table.)
<hr /></blockquote>


...opponent if I feel that my opponent is employing illegal maneuvers of sharking.Now that is getting even. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif