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SPetty
02-09-2006, 11:19 AM
I just heard from Shane at Platinum Billiards - in response to my question to him - that the famous Platinum Billiards deflection ratings have been updated to include the OB-1 shaft.

Most of you know I play with an OB-1 and like it a lot.

My personal experience is a little different than their deflection ratings show, but they are showing the OB-1 essentially the same as the Predator.

Interesting.

http://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php

SpiderMan
02-09-2006, 12:38 PM
What the platinum ratings appear to show is that there is very little difference in deflection characteristics between shafts. They call a shaft with a 10.7" pivot point "low" deflection and one with a 9.7" pivot point "medium" deflection. Their entire category of "medium low" occupies only the 1" in between those categories. A one-inch difference in pivot point is nothing.

When the Predator was first introduced, there was considerable buzz about it having a pivot point back at 20 or 30 inches using the standard test. Something is inconsistent here. How do your current Predators (or OB-1s) measure?

SpiderMan

SPetty
02-09-2006, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> How do your current Predators (or OB-1s) measure?<hr /></blockquote>Are you asking me??!? I've never even attempted to try to measure a pivot point on any of my cues. You're welcome to give it a try next time you come out. I've got multiple Predator shafts /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif, and two OB-1 shafts /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif for testing purposes... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Rod
02-09-2006, 09:30 PM
Ha Ha Ha I guess pivot points are fine and dandy. What you don't know??? OMG I didn't figgure in my pivot point on that last shot, it barely went in. I'm so lost. Just having fun. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif At least my AIMING SYSTEM worked.

Rod

Wolven
02-10-2006, 08:37 AM
I'm waiting for my OB-1 shaft which I bought directly from the manufacturer. Apparently the newest OB-1 shafts are better than the one tested. I have had Predator z-shaft for 3 weeks now and I cannot play with it. I think the tip is too small. Anyway I will write a little review once my OB-1 gets here.

jingle
03-17-2006, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wolven:</font><hr> I'm waiting for my OB-1 shaft which I bought directly from the manufacturer. Anyway I will write a little review once my OB-1 gets here. <hr /></blockquote>

I too currently have a Z and I'm looking forward to your review/comparison.

Wolven
03-17-2006, 12:36 PM
Ok. Here is my review of the 2-shafts. I have been playing with the them for over a month now.

Predator Z shaft, uni-lock, 11.75 tip dime shape Moori Soft, Euro taper
OB-1 shaft, uni-lock, 12.75 tip dime shape Sniper Medium, Pro taper

Predator Z shaft:
Amazing ability to induce spin, never seen that on any other shaft. Must shoot softer than normal. Any deviation from the center of the CB and you will miss, so must have a good stroke. Virtually no deflection, very nice. Difficult to adjust to. Occasionally has hollow sound. Hard to play with for long periods of time. Difficult to make shots of the rail. I would recommend this shaft for a very good player but not a beginner.

OB-1 shaft:
Good spinning ability but not like the Z. Seems heavy but it isnít. There is deflection. Workmanship is good the feel is good. The wooden ferule is nice. The cream color is strange. Bank shots and rail shots are easier to make. In fact it is easier to play with, less effort required. I would recommend this shaft to any player regardless of skill level. I use it more often than the Z shaft because I sink more balls with it on more consistent basses.

Iím planning to turn one of my OB-1 shafts into a 12.25. I want some characteristics of the Z shaft without the side effects.)

SpiderMan
03-17-2006, 12:41 PM
As I recall, your aiming system works pretty well. Maybe you should give lessons.

Will you or Rick be in 'Vegas this summer? I'd like to get re-handicapped if possible.

SpiderMan

jingle
03-17-2006, 12:47 PM
Thanks for your review. I have experienced similar "control" issues as you describe with my Z. Just curious if you have ever used a 314 prior to your Z days? If so, how would you compare the OB-1 with the 314 as respects ease of making balls off the rail and end-to-end shots?

Rod
03-17-2006, 02:56 PM
I planned a few days at that time, BUT do to another factor it didn't work out. I'm taking some time off but it will be about two weeks before. Me and a friend may still drive up for a day or two tops if all goes well. I don't know Rick's plans, haven't talked to him for a while. I moved across town so I don't see the old crowd very much plus I play very little.

Rod

tjlmbklr
03-18-2006, 07:27 AM
[ QUOTE ]
What the platinum ratings appear to show is that there is very little difference in deflection characteristics between shafts. They call a shaft with a 10.7" pivot point "low" deflection and one with a 9.7" pivot point "medium" deflection. Their entire category of "medium low" occupies only the 1" in between those categories. A one-inch difference in pivot point is nothing.
<hr /></blockquote>


I am just jumping in on this conversation, and decided it is a good time educate myself. What are pivot pionts, and while I am asking questions, what are the the specs. of a pro-taper -vs- Euro taper.

SpiderMan
03-18-2006, 03:18 PM
Wolven,

I would not turn the OB-1 down to 12.25 without consulting Royce.

I looked at a shattered OB-1 (friend's case was run over by a car), and it was hollowed and cored like a Predator. I'm not sure how much wall thickness you have to work with there.

Royce has probably done a lot of prototype development and testing in the standard configuration, but you're talking about something that may significantly weaken the shaft.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Wolven:</font><hr> Ok. Here is my review of the 2-shafts. I have been playing with the them for over a month now.

Predator Z shaft, uni-lock, 11.75 tip dime shape Moori Soft, Euro taper
OB-1 shaft, uni-lock, 12.75 tip dime shape Sniper Medium, Pro taper

Predator Z shaft:
Amazing ability to induce spin, never seen that on any other shaft. Must shoot softer than normal. Any deviation from the center of the CB and you will miss, so must have a good stroke. Virtually no deflection, very nice. Difficult to adjust to. Occasionally has hollow sound. Hard to play with for long periods of time. Difficult to make shots of the rail. I would recommend this shaft for a very good player but not a beginner.

OB-1 shaft:
Good spinning ability but not like the Z. Seems heavy but it isnít. There is deflection. Workmanship is good the feel is good. The wooden ferule is nice. The cream color is strange. Bank shots and rail shots are easier to make. In fact it is easier to play with, less effort required. I would recommend this shaft to any player regardless of skill level. I use it more often than the Z shaft because I sink more balls with it on more consistent basses.

Iím planning to turn one of my OB-1 shafts into a 12.25. I want some characteristics of the Z shaft without the side effects.)
<hr /></blockquote>

SpiderMan
03-18-2006, 03:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tjlmbklr:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
What the platinum ratings appear to show is that there is very little difference in deflection characteristics between shafts. They call a shaft with a 10.7" pivot point "low" deflection and one with a 9.7" pivot point "medium" deflection. Their entire category of "medium low" occupies only the 1" in between those categories. A one-inch difference in pivot point is nothing.
<hr /></blockquote>


I am just jumping in on this conversation, and decided it is a good time educate myself. What are pivot pionts, and while I am asking questions, what are the the specs. of a pro-taper -vs- Euro taper. <hr /></blockquote>

This refers to the length of your bridge, ie distance to the cueball from the point where the cue rests on your hand/finger/whatever. If you line a shot up centerball, then apply sidespin by "pivoting" the cue using your bridge as the fulcrum, then there is a "best" bridge length where the offset in aim most nearly cancels the cueball squirt due to the off-center hit.

The actual method we use to determine this optimum is to line up a straight-in shot with no spin, pivot the cue to apply right english (without moving the bridge), then shoot from the "pivoted" alignment. If the ball misses the pocket to the left (when applying right spin), then lengthen your bridge and try again. If the ball misses the pocket to the right (when applying right spin), shorten your bridge and try again. If you make the ball and the CB stops (spinning in place), then your bridge was at the optimum length for cancellation of CB squirt (for the equipment you're using).

Double-check your results by repeating with left spin and reversing my descriptions.

Also, if your cueing skills and stroke repeatability are poor, you will have a hard time finding a repeatable result. Take an average in that case.

"Low squirt" cues will result in the test converging to a longer optimum bridge than "high squirt" cues.

Knowing the optimum pivot point for your equipment can be valuable. If you bridge at the optimum pivot point, you can apply sidespin by this "aim and pivot" method and have your aim compensated automatically. Also, if your stroke consistency is off and you mis-hit the cueball, you are more likely to make the shot anyway because the offcenter hit will be somewhat cancelled by the squirt, and ideally you'll wind up back on target (but with residual sidespin).

Your optimum pivot point is not an invariant, and it depends on the CB used. The optimum pivot point shortens if the CB is lighter, and lengthens if it is heavier.

You'll see frequent reference to something called "back-hand" english if you read a lot of posts on technique. "Back-hand english" refers to the technique of lining up a shot without english, then moving your grip hand to one side or the other before shooting. This is sometimes called "aim and pivot", and it's basically using the principles of the squirt test to apply english and compensate aim.

Some people use BHE by lining up, pivoting, and shooting in distinct separate steps, while others may just line up and "swerve" the cue as they shoot. Both styles are taking advantage of the same principle - making your standard bridge length equal to the optimum pivot point for squirt compensation.

Anyway, if you try testing some of your cues for optimum pivot point, you'll see what I mean by differences of one inch meaning nothing. I can hand the same cue to five different people, explain how to do the test, and their results will vary a couple of inches. It would be silly to choose one "low-squirt" cue over another based on differences that are within measurement variance.

SpiderMan

MacGyver
03-18-2006, 06:07 PM
Just so you know, Royce told me that he could turn down a shaft to 12.25 and still be fine with wall thickness, though he didnt recommend it because it would put a TON of spin on the ball.

That was also HIM turning it down so I dont know if there are any precations that need to be made, but he did indicate that 12.25 was doable.

Wolven
03-18-2006, 07:29 PM
I talked with Royce and he said that 12.25 would be ok but the shaft would have too much spin. I would love to find out how much spin. Would it produce as much spin as Predator Z shaft? My guess is probably not. I find that 12.75 tip is too big for me and that 11.75 is too small. I picked middle ground at 12.25 but I may decide on 12.35 I'm not sure. I want a shaft that will produce lots of spin but will not be as sensitive as the z-shaft.
OB-1 has a pro-taper. I'm thinking of changing that to more gradual increase in diameter like in a Euro-taper. I want to avoid creation of a flex point. However, I'm giving my shaft to a very good cue maker and will ask him about the best course of action.

dg-in-centralpa
03-18-2006, 07:37 PM
SPetty,
I just got back from Valley Forge and OB had a stand there. I saw what the shaft looks like before it's turned down. Kind of like a bunch of eclipses glued together. I didn't care for the look. I was afraid that the pieces would come apart rather than the Predator with their pie shaped pieces. While I was listening to their sales pitch, a woman asked if I ever heard of their shaft. I said that I didn't, so her husband came over to explain it to me. He asked what I play with, and I told him a Richard Black. All he said was "Oh...That's a high end cue." Then he dropped me like a skunk who just sprayed. I guess he figured that he couldn't compete.

DG

Wolven
03-18-2006, 07:38 PM
I have used the 314 shaft but only for about an hour here and there on various cues.
Not enough to make a real comparison. I noticed that sinking balls with 314 was not a problem. I think I will like that shaft. It didnít have that empty sound of the z-shaft and was not oversensitive to imperfections of my stroke. There was deflection for sure. Hard to tell if it was more or less than on OB-1, probably the same.

I have 314 on order together with P2 leopard and curly maple cue, no rap.
It will have Moori Medium tip. I have been waiting for a month and Iím getting impatient, in fact annoyed as I want to sell my 4k2 and the z-shaft.

tjlmbklr
03-19-2006, 06:38 AM
Thanx Spiderman; lots of reading and I think I understand your detailed explaination.

Cornerman
03-19-2006, 07:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr> What the platinum ratings appear to show is that there is very little difference in deflection characteristics between shafts. They call a shaft with a 10.7" pivot point "low" deflection and one with a 9.7" pivot point "medium" deflection. Their entire category of "medium low" occupies only the 1" in between those categories. A one-inch difference in pivot point is nothing.<hr /></blockquote>I really need to talk to Shane about his measurements as none of his "pivot points" jibe with anybody else's numbers. So, I think he's got a different definition.

I tested the OB shaft yesterday. The pivot point was in the ~40" range based on the Aim &amp; Pivot Method. This is comparable to the 314 shaft. Front-hand english was properly in play.

Fred

Sid_Vicious
03-19-2006, 08:44 AM
Y'all over analyze your cues. If they feel good and make balls, I buy it. If i don't have my personal cue by some chance, one of the wall cues will play better that others, and those are all made by the same manufacturer. A cue, IMO has an individual personality, and besides an obvious weight difference, I'm not concerned about intircate details like pivot points. These things make for thread-distance during discussions, I just ain't gonna focus on distracting ergonomic features. There's a guy at the PH who always wants to show me the whys for what happens after OB/CB collision, and it bores me, plus it cuts into my play time. "Just hit the damn ball and let it happen!" sid

OldieToo
03-19-2006, 09:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Y'all over analyze your cues. If they feel good and make balls, I buy it. If i don't have my personal cue by some chance, one of the wall cues will play better that others, and those are all made by the same manufacturer. A cue, IMO has an individual personality, and besides an obvious weight difference, I'm not concerned about intircate details like pivot points. These things make for thread-distance during discussions, I just ain't gonna focus on distracting ergonomic features. There's a guy at the PH who always wants to show me the whys for what happens after OB/CB collision, and it bores me, plus it cuts into my play time. "Just hit the damn ball and let it happen!" sid <hr /></blockquote>Where's the "thumbs-up" gremlin....LOL

I have a favorite cue, my McDermott. It has three shafts and all three play similar enough that I couldn't care which one I use. I also have a 314 for my Joss that is as good as the original shafts(except asthetics). The thing with higher-end cues is that they usually have old growth maple shafts that are "naturally laminated". In otherwords, they have almost as many layers as a custom built-from-garbage-wood laminated shaft.

Just use the shaft that came with the cue. If you bought a great cue and the shaft is bad enough to warrant a different shaft from the aftermarket, then you bought a poor cue to begin with.

JMO.

Collyn

Cornerman
03-19-2006, 03:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> Y'all over analyze your cues. <hr /></blockquote>I don't.

Fred &lt;~~~ next

Rich R.
03-19-2006, 06:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> SPetty,
I just got back from Valley Forge and OB had a stand there. <hr /></blockquote>
I'm still in Valley Forge /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif, but earlier today, I too stopped at the OB-1 booth for a test drive.

I don't feel qualified to discuss the deflection of the shaft, or any of the other technical stuff, so I won't.

What I will discuss is the feel of this shaft.

First of all, I have to say that I have never liked the feel of the Predator shafts. IMHO, they really don't have any feel. I don't seem to get any feedback when I hit a ball with one.
I bring this up because the Predator would be the main laminated shaft in the market for comparison.

I found the OB-1 shaft to feel more like a solid wood shaft and there was some good feedback, when hitting balls. Unlike the Predator, I liked the feel of the OB-1 shaft, however, I do have to wonder if the better feel is the result of the unique layered ferrule. Although a little expensive, it is certainly worth considering, if you are in the market for a shaft.

BTW, this review is based on hitting only about a dozen balls, however, I didn't miss a shot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Personally, I have used a flat laminated shaft before, but I am currently using normal solid wood shafts. For the near future, I don't think I will be switching.

RonMont
03-21-2006, 01:38 PM
Just wanted to say hello to you and Don Rose. I feel bad that I never got back for more lessons from Don. What I did get from him was priceless.
Best, Ron.

SpiderMan
03-21-2006, 03:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote RonMont:</font><hr> Just wanted to say hello to you and Don Rose. I feel bad that I never got back for more lessons from Don. What I did get from him was priceless.
Best, Ron. <hr /></blockquote>

Rod,

Is he talking about the same Don I met, the 9-speed player we were playing Scotch doubles with?

SpiderMan

Rod
03-21-2006, 08:33 PM
Hello Ron,

I haven't seen Don for a while myself since I moved to the west side. I will though and tell him, if I don't forget. LOL

We talked a lot over the years. Sometimes he'd bring a player over and ask me what I think. I'd do the same, we both did once in a while over the years. The funny thing is we both came to the same conclusion. Don is one sharp guy add to that he knows 3C and you have a good instructor.

Best Regards, Rod

Rod
03-21-2006, 08:36 PM
Maybe, but I don't recall we did. Where did we play? If your talking about Alexanders it wasn't him.

Rod

rbc
03-22-2006, 02:36 PM
First, I want to thank all of those who stopped by and visited with us at the Expo. We had a great time, made many new friends, and sold a few shafts too.

The show was very busy for us. There were only 3 of us there with Don and Myself working on the front lines and Anita helping to make sure we didn't miss anyone. dg-in-centralpa, obvioulsy we missed you and I am sorry. I remember talking to a few folks with Richard Black cues, but I don't remember missing anyone. I assure you, it was not because of the cue. Richard makes very good cues, and I have sold a few shafts to go on them. It makes for a very good combination. Most of the time for the 4 days that we were there, I was carrying on at least a couple of conversations at any given time. I would answer one person's questions, they would spend some time reading the flyer or looking at the shaft, and I would spend that time answering someone else's questions. I would always try to come back and pick up though, so I am sorry that I missed coming back to you.

All in all, the show was very good to us. We have many dealers and cuemakers that we are sending more information to. We also had a few of the BIG names come by and hit the OB-1. All in all, everybody seemed to like it. We have already secured our spot for next year. We will have more room with a double booth instead of a single.

Anyway, thanks again to all those who came by.

Royce Bunnell
OBcues.com