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Kato
02-22-2002, 08:45 AM
Well, I caved in and dropped by the Playpool.com board yesterday and gosh darnit if the entire CCB crew weren't there. I hope folks come back since I don't really have time to hang out on both boards. Sure will miss those people (Barbara one of my favs).

Phenolic tips. I'm having a phenolic tip installed on my break/jump today. Anybody else break/jump with these tips?

R.J.~~~trying stuff in my experimental stage.

Fred Agnir
02-22-2002, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Kato teases with:</font><hr> Phenolic tips. I'm having a phenolic tip installed on my break/jump today. Anybody else break/jump with these tips?<hr></blockquote>

Not for nothing, but wouldn't these tips be illegal under BCA spec. rules?

Fred

Kato
02-22-2002, 11:50 AM
Fred, I don't know but since I don't play BCA it really wouldn't matter. If I did I do have another break cue. I know the phenolic tip jumpers are not outlawed on the Florida Tour now and everyone has one.

R.J.

rackmup
02-22-2002, 08:55 PM
Played against a guy the other night who had a "phenolic" tip on his cue...he was jumping everything in the place...said he was thinking of jumping the fountains at "Caesar's Palace" in Vegas, a la, Evil Knievel with it!

Where did you find one? By the way...they are illegal per BCA rulings (tips must be leather or synthetic leather)

Happy Hopping!

02-22-2002, 09:05 PM
Someone please explain to me why a phenolic material should be outlawed. I don't get it, seems like the BCA gets "illegal happy" over nuthin' these days...sid~~~thinks his Lucase jumper may have a phenolic tip

rackmup
02-22-2002, 09:23 PM
You know when you have (or are playing against) a player with a phenolic tip on his jump cue. It's amazing what a little piece of plastic can do!

I cannot find anyone that sells them. The guy I shot against a few nights ago made his out of a small piece of ABS plastic, scavenged from a plumbing elbow from Home Depot!

I WANT ONE!

(my Meucci jump cue neeeeeeds one! Please help my Meucci jump cue!)

rackmup
02-22-2002, 10:13 PM
Check out this link:

http://www.flash.net/~jlowery/tips.htm

They claim to have a BCA approved (although the documentation is from 1994) "synthetic" tip. The "black" model is designed for breaking/jumping.

They say it doesn't mushroom and holds chalk like a leather tip. Now, I wouldn't change tips on my shooting cues for these BUT I just might use one on my jump cue!

Anyone out there familiar with these tips?

TomBrooklyn
02-23-2002, 12:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Kato:</font><hr>I'm having a phenolic tip installed on my break/jump today. Anybody else break/jump with these tips?R.J. <hr></blockquote>No, but it may be just the thing I've been looking for. Are they good for breaking as well as jumping? Where can I get one? Are the tips that Ken linked us to in the previous reply phenolic?

Q-guy
02-23-2002, 12:21 AM
I would like to know what synthetic leather is. Is it leather or isn't it. Suppose I make some tips from phenolic and call it synthetic leather.

Troy
02-23-2002, 12:21 AM
I could make one Ken, but I really do NOT want to..... /ccboard/images/icons/frown.gif

Q-guy
02-23-2002, 12:37 AM
You need a lathe to make the tip, but here is what to do. Call a local plastics supplier and ask for paper based phenolic sheet 1/4 inch thick. You may have to buy a half sheet 4 feet by 4 feet. Be around $30. You might get some scrap somewhere for nothing. You will get about 350 tips from one square foot. Bandsaw off a piece and glue it on your cue the same as you would do any tip. Machine it down and finish it. Get it in dark brown and no one could tell what it is. Don't use the linen rod, the paper sheet goods works and looks better. I take no responsibility from this point forward. I would never encourage anyone to cheat.

Kato
02-23-2002, 08:19 AM
I got my phenolic tip last night but I was too tired to go to the PH. I'm going tonight. Searing's shop put it on for me. Price very reasonable and YES.................they jump great. I'll hit with it tonight (I bunted some balls around on the home table with just the shaft last night) 'cause I wanna cut loose with it. My roomate swears it will give you 2-4 mph on the break (my break is probably only around 18-20 mph) so I'm pumped. Gotta remember to stay relaxed and not jump whitey into the next county.

R.J.

Q-guy
02-23-2002, 10:46 AM
You don't have to say, but if it can be told, how much did Dennis charge to do the tip? You said the Fla. tour permits them.

Chris Cass
02-23-2002, 10:50 AM
Hi Sid,
It's plastic with leather fibers mixed in to make it legal I think. They hit hard as a rock and also won't tap. To rough them up you have to sand them down. You get over easy but don't have the control of all leather as far as jumping goes.
C.C.

Q-guy
02-23-2002, 12:42 PM
What exactly is the rule? I have a vacuum chamber I use to make stabilized wood. You know like Dymond wood. Suppose I put in some Le Pro tips and impregnated them with phenolic resin or melamine resin. They would be about leather with any air space filled with resin. They would be as hard as glass. I could experiment till I found the perfect resin. Would they be legal by BCA rules?

TomBrooklyn
02-23-2002, 01:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Q-guy:</font><hr> What exactly is the rule? <hr></blockquote>

Q-Guy, this is from http://www.seyberts.com/bunjee/index.htm where they sell the Bunjee Jumper(TM).

...the Billiard Congress of America (BCA) established standards for jump cues. Since 1998, the BCA rulebook specifies that a jump cue must be at least 40 inches in length, be no thicker than 14mm at the tip, and have a tip made of leather or synthetic leather...

The Bunjee Tip

The Bunjee Tip is composed of leather and synthetic fibers. This composition provides the hardness necessary to facilitate the jump effect. The leather content provides the ability to hold chalk allowing for the application of "english" or spin to the cue-ball.

The Care of the Tip

The tip used on the Bunjee Jumper is very hard and needs to be scuffed or tapped regularly. We recommend a Tip Pik™, or a Porcupine™ Tapper. Should the tip come off, it can be reapplied. Just make sure that the tip is roughed up considerably so that the glue will form a strong bond.

Legality

Our tip conforms to all known rules governing legal cue tips. Because the tip is a crucial part of the performance of the cue we do not recommend the use of any other brand of tip. Also we make no claim for the legality of the Bunjee Jumper when it is used with any other tip but our own.

The Bunjee Jumper as it is sold has been approved for use by the Billiard Congress of America (BCA), the Valley National Eight-ball Association (VNEA), the National Nine Ball Tour (Texas Express), The Viking Tour and The BCA All American Tour. Should any tournament director in any of these organizations disallow the Bunjee Jumper then they are doing so contrary to their organization's rules at the time of this printing. We ask that you take the time to report any disallowance of the Bunjee Jumper so that we can act accordingly.

Usage

We recommend using a TipPik(tm) or similar instrument to roughen the top of the tip. Due to the hardness grade the tip will not respond to ordinary scuffers or sandpaper. The performance of the Bunjee Jumper is greatly enhanced when it is properly scuffed.

I wonder how the bungee tip would work for breaking? Also, it's pretty expensive at $20.00 plus $10.00 UPS shipping.
Kato, is that tip of yours all phenolic, or is there any leather in it?


Q-Guy wrote <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>I have a vacuum chamber I use to make stabilized wood. You know like Dymond wood. Suppose I put in some Le Pro tips and impregnated them with phenolic resin or melamine resin. They would be about leather with any air space filled with resin. They would be as hard as glass. I could experiment till I found the perfect resin. Would they be legal by BCA rules? <hr></blockquote>

Sounds like an interesting idea, and legal by the above rules. If you think you can get the resin to penetrate all the way through the tip I say try it. How soon can you do this? I need a tip now. LOL.

TonyM
02-23-2002, 02:29 PM
Q-guy wrote:

"They would be about leather with any air space filled with resin. They would be as hard as glass. I could experiment till I found the perfect resin. Would they be legal by BCA rules?"

Yes they would be legal by BCA rules. Give it a try, and let me know what happened!

Tony

TonyM
02-23-2002, 02:32 PM
Tom wrote:

"I wonder how the bungee tip would work for breaking?"

Well since Instroke are coming out with a B/J cue with the Bunjee tip, I would say it works well!

Seriously, I've tried it and it works very well for breaking. It is very noisy however, and the sound might be annoying to some (but it is only for one shot a game).

Others have found it hard to keep the tip on the ferrule, but I think that this is a glue issue.

Tony

TonyM
02-23-2002, 02:38 PM
Fred sticks his line in the water with:

"Not for nothing, but wouldn't these tips be illegal under BCA spec. rules?"

If he was talking about the Bunjee tip (which is leather powder mixed with phenolic resin) then yes, they are legal under BCA rules.

Jewett and I have talked about this, and I think that the use of the term "synthetic leather" is bogus, and open to subjective interpretation. Suppose the tip is vinyl, is that considered synthetic leather? It is for cue cases.

The better spec would be to specify a tip hardness range allowable and forget about the material composition.

Tony

TonyM
02-23-2002, 02:41 PM
Q-guy says:

"I would like to know what synthetic leather is. Is it leather or isn't it. Suppose I make some tips from phenolic and call it synthetic leather."

Well this is the problem isn't it? We've had this argument on RSB, and it is hard to see that any tip would be illegal under the current interpretation of the rules.

After all, if it is used in place of leather, isn't it a sythetic leather by definition?

A better specification (although it opens another can of worms) would be to specify an allowable tip hardness range.

Tony

TonyM
02-23-2002, 02:44 PM
Contact Instroke, they sell them seperate for their Bunjee jumpers. Not cheap, but they do work. Maybe Lucasi sell their tips also?

Tony

Q-guy
02-23-2002, 03:36 PM
Vacuum draws the resin all the way through. With wood I leave it in for 12 hours under vacuum. For something like leather, I think I would get complete saturation almost instantly. I will try it on Monday. I may try it tonight just using a polyurethane. As long as it dries hard you should get the same effect. What I will do is test it against an illegal phenolic tip to set a bench mark. I will let you know. If you just want an illegal phenolic tip, I will send you a couple.

Tommy_Davidson
02-24-2002, 02:39 AM
I have used them for years,and absolutely believe in them. I am not using one at the moment,because I don't have any. A close friend of mine is lifelong friends with the guy that makes these tips,so I "got the hookup",so to speak. I asked him about getting some 2 days ago,and he said he would try to call him. The black one is best for breaking/jumping,but they can be a pain to install,as the compound they are made of is kind of slick on the bottom. I have had good luck sanding the backs down with 100 grit paper,the adhesive backed kind,glued down to a piece of steel to obtain optimum flatness. When gluing,apply a small amount of glue to the ferrule,spread it around with the tip,then blow on it and let it dry for a few seconds. Apply a little more glue,spread it around,then center the tip and place the tip against a door facing or other solid surface,and gently lean into it for 10 seconds,then let it sit for 10 minutes or so. These tips have a tendency to develop stress cracks after a while,so they are by no means permanent. I have also never installed one and cut it down on a lathe,just a Porper pencil sharpener type cutting tool. Using this type of cutter,these tips peel like an apple,as opposed to turning into dust like a leather tip. Hope this helps. Tommy D.

02-24-2002, 10:40 AM
Just jumping in here, pun intended :-)

In my opinon the idea is to find the balance between "jumpability" and control of the cueball. When we designed the Bunjee Tips we were looking at legality first and performance second. Having no vaccum chamber to alter pre-manufactured leather tips we opted to make our own through by contracting with a chemical company we deal with regularly.

Our tip works great but it is not the only solution. I do think that any solution should be allowed which fits the following criteria;

1. The tip should be able to hold chalk and to be roughened with commercially available tools.
2. The tips should be such that sidespin can be applied in the same manner and with the same amount as a 100% leather tip.
3. Use of the tip should cause no damage to any other equipment.

In the end it's about playing pool. The jump cue is a tool to help players perform a shot they have to learn. Anyone who thinks they are going to benefit from having a cue which jumps well but allows for little control over the cueball is going to find that it will be a disadvantage to their game overall. Look for the balance and practice.

Kato
02-25-2002, 08:24 AM
Q-Guy, the cue ball takes off like a rocket ship. The problem I've found with this tip is that I've absolutely no control. I've yet to find dead center cue ball so I'm drawing the rock on the break. I've also jumped a couple off the table so I've got to start being more careful.

R.J.

TomBrooklyn
03-05-2002, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Kato:</font><hr> ...the cue ball takes off like a rocket ship. The problem I've found with this tip is that I've absolutely no control. I've yet to find dead center cue ball so I'm drawing the rock on the break. I've also jumped a couple off the table so I've got to start being more careful.
R.J. <hr></blockquote>Hows it going with that tip RJ, any progress with it since your last post?<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Tommy_Davidson:</font><hr>... The black one is best for breaking/jumping,but they can be a pain to install,as the compound they are made of is kind of slick on the bottom... Tommy D.<hr></blockquote>I'm getting ready to install a brown one along with a new ferrule. Should I be seeking any particular type of ferrule to go with it? Would the gluing proceedure be the same as for the black? My cue repairman may be familiar with them but I don't know that for sure yet. What is the difference between the black one and the brown one? Are the colors always indicative of the same chemical compound or can it vary?