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chicken_blood
02-13-2006, 08:31 AM
I was taught by several very good BCA instructors not to drop my elbow during my stroke. The thing is this, I just spent about eight hours watching accu stats and match tapes and noticed that all the pros on these tapes (and I mean all of them)have an elbow drop. Efren, Bustamante, Parica, Strickland, Archer, Chamat, Jones, Souqet, Owen, Morris, all drop their elbow.
This seems to contradict what I was taught.

littleCajun
02-13-2006, 08:46 AM
ChickenBlood,
Teaching to not drop the elbow is a great way to teach beginers or even intermediate players how to get there cue level at contact point with the cue ball. Many of the great players you mentioned do drop their elbows, however if you will slow the tapes down you will see that there cue is level at impact.

This is very comparable to Jim Furyk (hope I spelled his name right). He was a very good golfer who fundamentaly did everything wrong, but was square at impact time and that is what counts. Now there is not a single PGA Instructor out there that would teach his swing. Does not make it wrong though.

The pendulum stroke, is a very easy stroke to teach and gets you where you need to be at impact time. Does not mean its the only way to get your cue level at impact time.

Case in point are players who grew up from a small child playing and they have a side arm swing.

Your Friend.
LittleCajun.

Billy_Bob
02-13-2006, 09:55 AM
Around here, those who do not drop their elbow are probably going to win. These are not pros, some are semi-pros though. Those who drop their elbows are likely to miss some shots.

Someone on a billiards forum explained the advantage of not dropping your elbow. They pointed out that your shoulder can move any which way, but the elbow can only move one direction like a hinge.

Now I am an "ex-elbow dropper" from way back and this is a hard habit to break. But I notice I will make my shots more consistently if I don't drop my elbow, follow through so the tip of my cue is pointing at where I was aiming (not up in air, not up to left, not up to right), and stay down on the shot after shooting.

Being an "ex-elbow dropper" myself, I understand very well this is much easier said than done.

Try shooting the "Bank stroke practice" on the following link. You are shooting just the cue ball so it banks off the cushion to go into a pocket. Following through so your tip is pointing at where you were aiming each time will result in more consistent shots. And not dropping your elbow will make this easier. Also be sure to use the same speed with each shot.

http://www.geocities.com/billybobnospam/basic_daily_practice.html

dave
02-13-2006, 10:11 AM
I go along with everything said by littleCajun. I would add this thought: Why make the mechanics of your stroke more complex by adding an unnecessary element ( except in special circumstances like a power break)? The steps in the stroke process are complex enough without introducing additional movements. As in your examples, players can add the elbow drop but, in my opinion, you're simply making it more difficult to develop a consistent and repeatable stroke. Keep it simple. Reduce the process to a minimum number of steps and the minimum amount of movement.

smfsrca
02-13-2006, 11:58 AM
Emulating one pro or another is not a bad way to develop your style and stroke. "chicken_blood" listed a number of pros that drop thier elbow. Does someone have a list of pros that don't .

Cornerman
02-13-2006, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> Emulating one pro or another is not a bad way to develop your style and stroke. "chicken_blood" listed a number of pros that drop thier elbow. Does someone have a list of pros that don't .
<hr /></blockquote>One. Tony Robles.

Fred

dr_dave
02-13-2006, 12:33 PM
FYI, there have been a few good threads in the past covering this topic quite extensively. You can find them under "stroke" in the threads summary section of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

Regards,
Dave


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote chicken_blood:</font><hr> I was taught by several very good BCA instructors not to drop my elbow during my stroke. The thing is this, I just spent about eight hours watching accu stats and match tapes and noticed that all the pros on these tapes (and I mean all of them)have an elbow drop. Efren, Bustamante, Parica, Strickland, Archer, Chamat, Jones, Souqet, Owen, Morris, all drop their elbow.
This seems to contradict what I was taught. <hr /></blockquote>

Cornerman
02-13-2006, 12:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr>As in your examples, players can add the elbow drop but, in my opinion, you're simply making it more difficult to develop a consistent and repeatable stroke. Keep it simple. Reduce the process to a minimum number of steps and the minimum amount of movement.<hr /></blockquote>Sometimes, what is seemingly common sense isn't so cut-and-dry. I think most of us would agree that loosening up the wrist makes things easier in pool. And easier leads to consistency. A loose wrist certainly is "adding another body part" and "adding more movement."

One of the problems with people saying "less moving body parts is better" is that there's no biomechanical study to back those words, and just "common sense." And as I implied, sometimes common sense is just wrong.

For some shots (power shots come to mind), keeping the elbow from dropping is actually restrictive and is counter to "simple." You would actually have to use more muscles to not allow the free flow of the elbow drop.

Note to anyone who's going to mince my words: I DID NOT SAY THAT YOU CAN'T ACCOMPLISH THE SAME THING WITHOUT DROPPING THE ELBOW.

Body parts move in any athletic endeavor. It's the ability to coordinate the parts to reproduce the motion with THE LEAST AMOUNT OF EFFORT that defines a good athlete (or pool player in this case).

Fred

Fran Crimi
02-13-2006, 02:41 PM
You're wrong, Fred. I wrote this before: Tony drops his elbow when he feels he needs to. I've seen him do it plenty of times. He even demonstrated it to me in a power draw shot.

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-13-2006, 02:46 PM
Good idea to study the pros. Most of them drop their elbows during certain types of shots. It's not necessary to do it every shot (although some do) but it can be a benefit on certain shots.

Try to figure out when they do it and then experiment yourself.

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-13-2006, 03:08 PM
Look fellas, 'repeatable stroke' is a very nice term but it's not the whole ball of wax. Being a good player means being able to recognize what you need to do and then being able to execute it. It doesn't mean stroking the same way every time. It means putting enough weapons in your arsenal to be able to pull out the right one when you need it.

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-13-2006, 04:41 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I DID NOT SAY THAT YOU CAN'T ACCOMPLISH THE SAME THING WITHOUT DROPPING THE ELBOW.
<hr /></blockquote>


Okay, then I'll say it: I BELIEVE THERE ARE SOME SHOTS THAT CAN BE EXECUTED BETTER WITH AN ELBOW DROP. Maybe even more than some shots.

This isn't addressed to you, personally, Fred. It's just a general statement:

Learning to drop your elbow takes time and trust. If an instructor has experimented extensively with an elbow drop, there's no way he or she could discount it as an important weapon in a player's arsenal. The problem is that most people aren't willing to put in the time to experiment. That goes for both instructors and players alike. That is, of course unless you're a pro. Pros drop their elbows because they've put in enough experimentation time to recognize it's value.

You folks don't really believe it's just a coincidence that the pros drop their elbows, do you? Do you think you all know something that they don't know?

Fran

Vagabond
02-13-2006, 04:55 PM
Elbow drop is a natural finish of a stroke in many shots.If it does not drop and it is unnatural.Engaging in unnatural acts require an effort to not do the natural act( Elbow Drop)and it drains the player of energy and concentration.Droping the elbow does not make u miss the shot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

jtlabs
02-13-2006, 05:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote chicken_blood:</font><hr> I was taught by several very good BCA instructors not to drop my elbow during my stroke. The thing is this, I just spent about eight hours watching accu stats and match tapes and noticed that all the pros on these tapes (and I mean all of them)have an elbow drop. Efren, Bustamante, Parica, Strickland, Archer, Chamat, Jones, Souqet, Owen, Morris, all drop their elbow.
This seems to contradict what I was taught. <hr /></blockquote>

If you watch Morris vs salvis in the masconi 2005, their is at least one complete round where he does not drop his elbow not even once through out the whole run out. Its like Fran pointed out, it is just a matter of the type of shot you take. The whole idea behind not dropping the elbow is just to form consistency in your game. If you can do that, does not matter if your shooting your whole pool game behind your back, as long as your consistent in your shots.

pooltchr
02-13-2006, 06:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> You're wrong, Fred. I wrote this before: Tony drops his elbow when he feels he needs to. I've seen him do it plenty of times. He even demonstrated it to me in a power draw shot.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Fran,
Does the elbow drop happen before, or after, impact with the cue ball?
Steve

recoveryjones
02-13-2006, 07:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote smfsrca:</font><hr> Emulating one pro or another is not a bad way to develop your style and stroke. "chicken_blood" listed a number of pros that drop thier elbow. Does someone have a list of pros that don't .
<hr /></blockquote>One. Tony Robles.


Fred <hr /></blockquote>

And his (beautiful)student, Jennifer Baretta.

Another is a older pro Jeff Carter.There are a few others who keep it up there the majority of the time,however, do drop on occasion.
RJ

ps. CCB er's,I started a simuliar thread called "Elbow drop ,yes,no or maybe so" that had over a thousand views and over 100 responses. Do a search, lot's of good info there.

Bob C
02-13-2006, 08:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> Elbow drop is a natural finish of a stroke in many shots.If it does not drop and it is unnatural.Engaging in unnatural acts require an effort to not do the natural act( Elbow Drop)and it drains the player of energy and concentration.Droping the elbow does not make u miss the shot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>

"Unnatural acts" are still against the law in some states. Nevada is clearly more liberal than most in this regard. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

ryushen21
02-13-2006, 09:01 PM
I think that there has been a lot of good stuff said here. In general, i tend to stick with the no elbow drop side of the argument. Every shot that i have had to use at the table i can execute without having to use an elbow drop.

Now i understand that there are a lot of people, pros included that play with the elbow drop and that's just fine for them.

The reason that i maintain the no elbow drop for myself is just a matter of simple mechanics. The pendulum stroke minimizes the total distance over which a mistake can occur during the stroke delivery. By engaging the elbow you increase the distance over which motion occurs and increase the opportunity for error.

And i have seen some players that isolate the movement even more by minimalizing the movement from the elbow and engaging the wrist.

This is something that will always be a point of argument though.

Fran Crimi
02-13-2006, 10:04 PM
Why? What would it mean if the elbow was dropped before as opposed to after impact?

Fran

pooltchr
02-14-2006, 06:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Why? What would it mean if the elbow was dropped before as opposed to after impact?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
If the elbow drop occurs prior to contact, it is far more likely to change the point of contact that was addressed during the warm up strokes. Do they drop their elbow during warm up strokes? Probably not. So they are setting up to do one thing and possibly doing another when they pull the trigger. If they are not dropping it until after contact, then they are getting the same motion, at least until they make contact. It makes a Huge difference.
Steve

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 07:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> You're wrong, Fred. I wrote this before: Tony drops his elbow when he feels he needs to. I've seen him do it plenty of times. He even demonstrated it to me in a power draw shot.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>I stand (sit) corrected.

Thanks Fran.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 07:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ryushen21:</font><hr>

Now i understand that there are a lot of people, pros included that play with the elbow drop and that's just fine for them. <hr /></blockquote> It's not "a lot of people," but rather "every top player."


[ QUOTE ]
The reason that i maintain the no elbow drop for myself is just a matter of simple mechanics. The pendulum stroke minimizes the total distance over which a mistake can occur during the stroke delivery. By engaging the elbow you increase the distance over which motion occurs and increase the opportunity for error. <hr /></blockquote> This is a standard party line answer that on the surface may make sense, but in my view makes little sense. Please review Vagabond's excellent answer, as well as Fran Crimi's. Both of those responses makes much more sense than trying to limit body motion. This is a motion game. Limiting is limiting.

If you really study "simple mechanics," then it's easy to see why "not dropping the elbow" is absolutely incorrect for simple mechanics.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Fran,
Does the elbow drop happen before, or after, impact with the cue ball?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>I'm not Fran, but... watching all of the pros, some of them do in fact drop the elbow before impact. That's why you see some pros aiming tremendously low on the cueball when drawing.

All the doom and gloom posters can lament about lack of consistency, one more motion that introduce error, etc., but it's those same doom and gloom posters that believe that you shouldn't use much english.

Don't get me wrong, I love instruction, especially BCA instruction. But, at the same time, players shouldn't disregard what the better players are doing. Rather than saying bull$hit copouts like "given enough time, anyone can overcome poor fundamentals," players should be saying, "why do they do that, and how is it helpful."

I've said it zillions of times before, and I don't mind saying I'm 100% correct. It's easier (note the word 'easier') to introduce speed/power into your stroke if you incorporate more body movement. The elbow drop (though several board instructors will say isn't necessary) makes adding power easier. Easier. Easier. So, you can say what you will about consistency reduction by adding an extra body part motion, but in the end, easier addition of power also reduces the error possibilities. So, IMO, consistency is a near wash, with the end result being more power with less effort.

The beauty of this game is the ability to coordinate your motions with the least effort or the most efficient effort. This game like any other games that require any physical motion will always reward those that can do the motions with the least effort. It really is an effort/results ratio. For those who never thought about it, you might want to at least think about why the elbow drop is beneficial given this statement.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 07:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote littleCajun:</font><hr> Case in point are players who grew up from a small child playing and they have a side arm swing.

<hr /></blockquote>I think this is another saying that, IMO, is proven incorrect over and over and over. There is a very small percentage of, say, professionals who started very young but still have a side-arm stroke. Why is that?

And, there are several non-professionals who have a side-arm stroke that didn't start until they were full grown. Why is that?

That is, the correlation between starting age and side-arm stroking isn't really there, or else you'd see many more professionals, not just two (Joanne Mason and Keith McCready), with a side-arm stroke.

Many of those side-arm players of the past either come from the same area (like South American billiard players) or come from the same era (Greenleaf to Hoppe). Stroke mimicking is rampant in our sport. It shouldn't be a surprise (if anyone cared to look) that most "side arm" strokes aren't really sidearm at all. I would call them an "elbow tuck with super wrist." And of course, to come full circle, tucking the elbow can accomplish much the same thing as "dropping the elbow." But, it's another different coordinated motion that would be very difficult to teach.

Whether anyone agrees or disagrees, it's a legitimate thing to think about, rather than just repeating uncontested old sayings.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 07:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Okay, then I'll say it: I BELIEVE THERE ARE SOME SHOTS THAT CAN BE EXECUTED BETTER WITH AN ELBOW DROP. Maybe even more than some shots.<hr /></blockquote>I agree.

Fred

dave
02-14-2006, 08:21 AM
You'll note that I did mention that there are exceptions. I simply don't advocate trying to develop a variety of stroke techniques until AFTER you've perfected a basic, consistent stroke. I myself, utilize more than one type of stroke; but they are used only in specific circumstances. I don't think that incorporating an elbow drop is a good idea until you've learned when it's actually beneficial and when it's unnecessary. If you're an advanced player, sure. If your a beginner, you're only setting yourself up for problems. There are a lot of novice players on here that don't understand the nuances you're refering to when discussing its advantages. I should have been more specific in who I was directing my comments toward.

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 08:57 AM
I appreciate your point, Dave, but look at the top players. How many of those players do you think were taught as beginners to not drop their elbows?

I know many of them personally. None of the ones I know were taught that way. This non-elbow drop thing is strictly a fear-based theory. I've had students come my way who were taught not to drop their elbows. Now they can't drop them even if they wanted to. The transition is just too uncomfortable for them and they are unwilling to do it.

I know this because I was one of them. I had to let go of everything I previously learned in order to be able to do it and it was a grueling, painful process.

If they don't start early, they're most likely to never do it at all, and that would be a shame since they'd be missing out on some real benefits.

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 09:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> If the elbow drop occurs prior to contact, it is far more likely to change the point of contact that was addressed during the warm up strokes. Do they drop their elbow during warm up strokes? Probably not. So they are setting up to do one thing and possibly doing another when they pull the trigger. If they are not dropping it until after contact, then they are getting the same motion, at least until they make contact. It makes a Huge difference.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>


Steve, how did you come to these conclusions? Were you told this by someone or is this the result of your own time and experimentation with dropping the elbow?

Fran

Brian in VA
02-14-2006, 09:24 AM
quote Fred:

"I've said it zillions of times before, and I don't mind saying I'm 100% correct. It's easier (note the word 'easier') to introduce speed/power into your stroke if you incorporate more body movement. The elbow drop (though several board instructors will say isn't necessary) makes adding power easier. Easier. Easier. So, you can say what you will about consistency reduction by adding an extra body part motion, but in the end, easier addition of power also reduces the error possibilities. So, IMO, consistency is a near wash, with the end result being more power with less effort."

Fred,
I'm going to weigh in here because I disagree, at least to some degree, with the paragraph above.
One of the players on my ACS team has a solid break when he keeps everything (especially his head) still. When he goes for a little extra, he gets his entire body moving and his break weakens considerably. I don't claim to know anything about biomechanics but I assume that his extra movements are detrimental to a more powerful stroke, not because they are simply extra movements but are the wrong kind. (Like a reverse weight shift in the golf swing.)

I do believe that extra movement, the right kind, can produce a more powerful stroke because the pros with the really big breaks certainly don't remain still. I know when I want to put something extra into it, I have a definite weight shift from front to back foot that must incorporate some additional body movement, too.

I guess all I'm saying is that the extra movments must be the right kind and those aren't necessarily easier to do for the vast majority of us.

Just my 2 cents.

Brian in VA

pooltchr
02-14-2006, 09:31 AM
Fred,
How much speed/power does it take to roll a ball 40 feet on a bed of slate? Can you imagine many times needing that much speed/power for a shot? Do you think you can roll a ball that far without using your entire body to generate the speed/power?
Steve

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 09:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Brian in VA:</font><hr> Fred,
I'm going to weigh in here because I disagree, at least to some degree, with the paragraph above.
One of the players on my ACS team has a solid break when he keeps everything (especially his head) still. When he goes for a little extra, he gets his entire body moving and his break weakens considerably. <hr /></blockquote>The break is really a different animal in of itself. But, as you allude, if you can coordinate all the movement and get accuracy, then you'd have a break like many of the pros.

I think that coordinating the motions for a standard range of shots is tremendously easier than for the break shot.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 09:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Fred,
How much speed/power does it take to roll a ball 40 feet on a bed of slate? Can you imagine many times needing that much speed/power for a shot? Do you think you can roll a ball that far without using your entire body to generate the speed/power?
Steve <hr /></blockquote>This is a red herring idea. Always has been, and I think it detracts from the root idea. The idea isn't how much power do you need, but rather how efficient is the use of power and with what level of ease you can perform shots. The key word is "effort." I think anyone who has watched top performers in any sport will not how effortless their actions are, with supreme results.

Here's an example: if you can coordinate your movements such that the maximum you can throw a baseball is 300 ft (and you'd have to watch Major League players to appreciate the distance), then throwing it 150 ft is child's play with little effort. If, however you decide to throw with less body movement, and further tell me that the farthest you'd expect to ever throw the bal is 150' feet in a game, then throwing it 150' may be approaching your maximum. That's too much effort.

The person who can throw the 300' ball will have an easier time when throwing the 150' toss than the the guy who limits himself by "how far do you expect to throw the ball in a game" mentality.

Biomechanical study as it pertains to sports. We need a good study on it. If you (general) have anything that contradicts standard biomechanics, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, "less moving parts" doesn't make any sense in any other physical sport. Pool &amp; billiards isn't any different.

Fred

ryushen21
02-14-2006, 10:18 AM
Fred,

I was not to trying to say one thing over another, I was just stating how i myself play and the reasons that, to me, make sense to do so.

I read over some of the responses that you mentioned, a little closer than i did the first time. I can understand how there is validity to the argument that the elbow drop is more natural. However, i do not agree that there are shots that exist where the elbow drop is a necessity.

People posit that the power draw shot is a perfect example of where the elbow drop is necessary. I wholeheartedly disagree. I shoot every draw stroke exactly the same, with the only variable being stroke speed. And i can produce draw at almost any distance.

And perhaps my explanation of simple mechanics what a bit at fault. Or maybe you can explain it to me a little better. But, to me, it seems that the pendulum stroke, is a more efficient machine. Less distance, less moving parts, less probability of error. But if you can explain to me better, by all means do.

And yes, every top player may use elbow drop. But what percentage of shots? I am willing to bet that the majority of the time they don't.

Just my 2c but obviously we have some differences here. Which is why i said in my previous post that this is something that will always be a point of argument.

dave
02-14-2006, 10:38 AM
I'm sure, with a couple of exceptions, very few of the top pros had any formal instruction at all. I also appreciate your point about having to give up rule bound conceptions in order to advance. It seems that most instruction is really a matter of providing guidelines and a structured format for learning that has a tendency to come across as "rules". As painful as it is, I think everyone, no matter the discipline, has to go through that process of letting go of the conventional thought processes and rule-bound formal structures they've been taught in order to develop their craft and individuality. At some point we all have to start making our own personal judgements about what does or does not have value as we wade through all these statements about the right or wrong way to do something. But I do think you do have to have some kind of foundation framework to provide you guidelines which you can later set aside as your physical skills and thought processes mature.

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 11:06 AM
Foundation, yes. But why impose limits on the player so early on? I know for a fact that this non-elbow drop thing is being taught rigorously to players by many instructors. That's just plain damaging. Most beginners start out shooting crooked. You can help them learn to shoot straight by teaching them rigidity and compactness, or teaching them to relax and learn to trust their arm swings. Given the choice, which would you prefer?

I'm working with a beginner right now who I'm teaching to let her stroke out. She's making the big shots WITH NO FEAR, like there's no tomorrow, and having a blast with it. She can't wait to get to the table to practice. That's what I call progress.

Fran

dave
02-14-2006, 11:24 AM
I don't think economy of movement and relaxation and trust are mutually exclusive. I do however agree with your point that the elbow drop may be being overemphasized to the exclusion of other methods that may work equally well for other persons. We should all keep an open mind and make our judgements based upon what has proven to work for us in practice rather than theory.

ryushen21
02-14-2006, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>I know for a fact that this non-elbow drop thing is being taught rigorously to players by many instructors. That's just plain damaging.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

I don't think that it is damaging at all. The reason that it is being taught by many instructors is because it is a highly efficient stroke. I think that the more important question is, why would you want to teach a student a less efficient method?

I used to play with the elbow drop and now i don't. I have more precision and produce more results with less effort. Why wouldn't you want to teach a student that method first? If they find a way to improve on something after that, then good for them.

Just my 2c

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dave:</font><hr> I don't think economy of movement and relaxation and trust are mutually exclusive.
<font color="blue"> Possibly not, but they are if other muscles are being strained to accommodate that economy of movement, as I think Fred aptly pointed out. There are also psychologically-based issues revolving around that feeling of containment that can cause tension in the body. </font color>

I do however agree with your point that the elbow drop may be being overemphasized to the exclusion of other methods that may work equally well for other persons. We should all keep an open mind and make our judgements based upon what has proven to work for us in practice rather than theory.
<font color="blue"> Thanks. I only wish people would experiment more rather than just throw out theories as if they were facts. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 12:24 PM
I'd have to see how you played without the elbow drop first. My guess would be that you may have been lifting your elbow up in your backstroke. That could cause you some problems.

Ideally, it's great to know both methods. Now that you know the rigid elbow method, I'd suggest that you don't give up on the other. You may have been nearly there, but just needed a bit of tweaking. No harm in trying, right?

Then you can pull out the big stroke weapon when you need it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fran

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 12:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ryushen21:</font><hr>
[ QUOTE ]
People posit that the power draw shot is a perfect example of where the elbow drop is necessary.
I wholeheartedly disagree. <hr /></blockquote> No, they don't say that, so there's nothing to disagree.

I wrote:

Note to anyone who's going to mince my words: I DID NOT SAY THAT YOU CAN'T ACCOMPLISH THE SAME THING WITHOUT DROPPING THE ELBOW.

and Fran wrote:

I BELIEVE THERE ARE SOME SHOTS THAT CAN BE EXECUTED BETTER WITH AN ELBOW DROP.

Both of these mention nothing about "necessity." What has been said that execution of certain shots (power shots, for example) can be accomplished more readily (easier).



[ QUOTE ]
And perhaps my explanation of simple mechanics what a bit at fault. Or maybe you can explain it to me a little better. But, to me, it seems that the pendulum stroke, is a more efficient machine. Less distance, less moving parts, less probability of error. But if you can explain to me better, by all means do. <hr /></blockquote> This is why a study of Biomechanics is more relevant than machine mechanics. A pendulum is simple for one reason: it only has one rigid link and one pivot point.

A human has many "rigid" parts and many pivots. So, you have options with a human that a simple pendulum doesn't have.

To isolate any body part puts more load on it than if you balance the load among several parts. This is the basis of isometrics and isotonics. That's easy to see, isn't it?

Keep in mind the loose wrist conundrum. I think for most people, it's easy to see why keeping the wrist loose (one more moving part, one more pivot) rather than rigid (one less moving part, one less pivot) is a positive, not a negative. The addition of the moving wrist reduces the work required of the forearm if it (the forearm) were to work alone. It's a point of ease, not a point of possibilities.

[ QUOTE ]
And yes, every top player may use elbow drop. But what percentage of shots? I am willing to bet that the majority of the time they don't. <hr /></blockquote> Let's not confuse the issue. The bet is irrelevant to the current discussion. We've said many times that we're talking about certain shots, not every shot.

Fred

dr_dave
02-14-2006, 01:00 PM
Fran,

I am hoping you and/or others can answer some questions so I can better understand what you guys are suggesting:

1) Do you agree that dropping the elbow BEFORE cue ball contact might negatively affect one's contact-point consistency?

2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous?

3) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop AFTER cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous?

I think most people would agree that the elbow will tend to drop naturally after cue ball contact with power shots. Also, some people might be able to generate more power by dropping their elbow during the entire stroke, even before cue ball contact (e.g., with a power break). My main question is if you (or others) think elbow drop before cue ball contact should be discouraged or not, especially for beginner and intermediate players.

Thanks,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Good idea to study the pros. Most of them drop their elbows during certain types of shots. It's not necessary to do it every shot (although some do) but it can be a benefit on certain shots.

Try to figure out when they do it and then experiment yourself.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 01:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> 1) Do you agree that dropping the elbow BEFORE cue ball contact might negatively affect one's contact-point consistency?<hr /></blockquote> Sure, it might negatively affect one's contact point consistency. It might also positively affect the effort/results ratio.



[ QUOTE ]
2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous?<hr /></blockquote> Power strokes, high spin/speed ratio shots.

[ QUOTE ]
3) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop AFTER cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous?<hr /></blockquote> I have no answer to this one. Once the contact is over, dropping the elbow can't help or hurt. However, if dropping the elbow prevents someone from checking their stroke, then it's advantageous to all of that person's shots.


[ QUOTE ]
I think most people would agree that the elbow will tend to drop naturally after cue ball contact with power shots. Also, some people might be able to generate more power by dropping their elbow during the entire stroke, even before cue ball contact (e.g., with a power break).<hr /></blockquote> Yes and yes, and not just on the power break. The subtle power shots are also applicable, as well as the monster stroke shots. It's possible that many people who play on good, fast cloth may not see the benefit if they're not shooting on slow cloth or humid conditions.

[ QUOTE ]
My main question is if you (or others) think elbow drop before cue ball contact should be discouraged or not, especially for beginner and intermediate players.<hr /></blockquote> I think it's pretty obvious that I personally would never discourage dropping the elbow. It's almost like discouraging someone from an upright stance and teaching them to only use a lower stance. Or discourage the use of an open bridge and telling them that they should only use a closed bridge. You need to have an understanding of both (all?) methods, if you're going to understand what the possibilities are.

You will see professional players during their practice session power out shots that you will never see them shoot in a game. They don't do it to show off, but rather to test the limits of their stroke. And they all drop their elbow significantly. If they can define their limits during their practic sessions, then they can define their comfort zone. A guy who can draw the ball 20' from 9' away will have a comfort zone that would include a 9' draw shot from 9' away. A guy who can only draw the ball 9' maximum won't have a comfort zone that includes that 9' draw when it comes up.

Fred

iacas
02-14-2006, 02:13 PM
Many of the old-school golfers had unorthodox swings. They "got good" at them through tireless effort. There were no golf instructors back then.

Today, a lot of the swings look alike or share some fundamentals because that's what works.

I think the same holds true in pool: the top players even of today probably weren't taught much, so they developed their slightly unorthodox strokes by tireless determination and time spent hitting balls.

For someone new to the game, or anyone who hasn't had the countless hours to devote, "KISS." In this case, simpler = one moving part. The forearm.

Yes, for the break, you will probably elbow drop... but you'll also do other things you likely don't do on other shots, like come up out of your stance and so forth.

You don't need to elbow drop to increase spin (draw or follow). In fact, because you're less likely to hit the contact point you want, you're actually less likely to get the proper amount of draw or follow...

I don't know why Cornerman is pitching "dropping the elbow is good" so hard. It seems to me that common sense dictates otherwise.

If BCA Master Instructor Tom Simpson says it's so, by goodness, I'm gonna accept it until someone proves otherwise in a definitive fashion.

KISS!

dr_dave
02-14-2006, 02:19 PM
Fred,

Thank you for your responses. I think the one thing that everybody in this thread can probably agree on is that a person should use whatever stroke style that gives the best results (accuracy and consistency with speed, spin, and direction) for each type of shot. I personally think it is easier for most people to achieve accuracy and consistency on most shots by not dropping the elbow before cue ball contact, but I could be wrong. I know the following is just anecdotal evidence, but I have seen many players (including myself) improve by reducing elbow drop and using a more pendulum-like stroke. But again, if somebody can achieve better accuracy and consistency with elbow drop, side-arm swing, body or head motion, or anything else, then more power to them. However, if a person is inaccurate and inconsistent, they should be open minded to try changes (e.g., recommended best practices) in their stroke, even if the changes feel "unnatural" at first.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I've enjoyed reading all of the comments on this thread. Thank you for helping to create so much dialog.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> 1) Do you agree that dropping the elbow BEFORE cue ball contact might negatively affect one's contact-point consistency?<hr /></blockquote> Sure, it might negatively affect one's contact point consistency. It might also positively affect the effort/results ratio.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous?<hr /></blockquote> Power strokes, high spin/speed ratio shots.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>3) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop AFTER cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous?<hr /></blockquote> I have no answer to this one. Once the contact is over, dropping the elbow can't help or hurt. However, if dropping the elbow prevents someone from checking their stroke, then it's advantageous to all of that person's shots.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>I think most people would agree that the elbow will tend to drop naturally after cue ball contact with power shots. Also, some people might be able to generate more power by dropping their elbow during the entire stroke, even before cue ball contact (e.g., with a power break).<hr /></blockquote> Yes and yes, and not just on the power break. The subtle power shots are also applicable, as well as the monster stroke shots. It's possible that many people who play on good, fast cloth may not see the benefit if they're not shooting on slow cloth or humid conditions.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>My main question is if you (or others) think elbow drop before cue ball contact should be discouraged or not, especially for beginner and intermediate players.<hr /></blockquote> I think it's pretty obvious that I personally would never discourage dropping the elbow. It's almost like discouraging someone from an upright stance and teaching them to only use a lower stance. Or discourage the use of an open bridge and telling them that they should only use a closed bridge. You need to have an understanding of both (all?) methods, if you're going to understand what the possibilities are.

You will see professional players during their practice session power out shots that you will never see them shoot in a game. They don't do it to show off, but rather to test the limits of their stroke. And they all drop their elbow significantly. If they can define their limits during their practic sessions, then they can define their comfort zone. A guy who can draw the ball 20' from 9' away will have a comfort zone that would include a 9' draw shot from 9' away. A guy who can only draw the ball 9' maximum won't have a comfort zone that includes that 9' draw when it comes up.

Fred


<hr /></blockquote>

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 03:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote iacas:</font><hr> I don't know why Cornerman is pitching "dropping the elbow is good" so hard. It seems to me that common sense dictates otherwise. <hr /></blockquote>I would suggest that you read the rest of the thread. Not just my posts, but Fran Crimi's and Vagabond's.

As I said previously, this idea of common sense is faulty, based on faulty premises, and not backed by any serious biomechanical study.

[ QUOTE ]
If BCA Master Instructor Tom Simpson says it's so, by goodness, I'm gonna accept it until someone proves otherwise in a definitive fashion.<hr /></blockquote> Tom Simpson is my friend. I have known him for several years, exchange e-mails with him, and have visited with him in Columbus. Tom Simpson will also tell you that although the set, pause, finish, no elbow drop method garners consistency, that certain shots will not be shot in this manner by him. That's a fact, as we had this discussion just this past month. If you're going to use him as an example, I thought you should know that fact.

Again, I'm not downing SPF in the very least. It's a supremely powerful method. But, there are other methods for other shots that are also supremely powerful. They should be considered as part of the whole package, part of the KISS principle, and part of the orthodox way to play this game. Becasue they are.

Fred

pooltchr
02-14-2006, 03:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I personally think it is easier for most people to achieve accuracy and consistency on most shots by not dropping the elbow before cue ball contact, but I could be wrong. I know the following is just anecdotal evidence, but I have seen many players (including myself) improve by reducing elbow drop and using a more pendulum-like stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

Dave, I agree. I had the same experience when I stopped dropping my elbow, and have seen many students also see an increase in accuracy. The results don't lie. I gotta stick with what I have seen to work. Most of my students are asking me to help them find more consistancy in their game. This stroke is one of the best ways I know of to help them find it.
Steve

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 03:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I know the following is just anecdotal evidence, but I have seen many players (including myself) improve by reducing elbow drop and using a more pendulum-like stroke. <hr /></blockquote>

Maybe it's just the way it's being presented, but it seems as if everyone who is in the "no elbow drop" camp cannot seem to get past some of the blatant incorrect assumptions.

There absolutely is no doubt that many people have problems hitting the cueball where they intend. And furthermore, the structured BCA teachings of set, pause, finish, with no elbow drop can help multitudes upon multitued of players. No question. No debate.

But what we're saying is that if you do drop your elbow and you can hit the cueball consistently, then certain shots will be easier to execute. Not just top notch professionals, but your basic top local player will drop their elbow on certain shots. This is not the UNORTHODOX technique. It's actually the orthodox technique for power shots. Only recently are people falsely accusing the elbow drop as "unorthodox" and opposite of the KISS principle. In my book, that's absurd.

I'm NOT saying that dropping your elbow will increase your consistency. I AM saying that an elbow drop makes certain power strokes easier to execute. And dropping the elbow isn't doom and gloom, but it could heighten your skill level.

Fred

iacas
02-14-2006, 03:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>As I said previously, this idea of common sense is faulty, based on faulty premises, and not backed by any serious biomechanical study.<hr /></blockquote>
I studied biomechanics. Guess what? The simpler the movement the more repeatable it is.

Since you have only conjecture and SWAGs to back up your assertions, pardon me if I'm not quite believing what you have to say.

You "think" it may be better because so many pros do it. That doesn't mean it's true, not for anyone from beginners on up to the pros.

In 20 or 30 years, when a lot of the pros have a no-elbow-drop swing (because that's what's being taught now), will you change your tune?

I have better things to do than talk with people who bring up "biomechanical studies" when they've yet to (and can't possibly) find any similar evidence to back their own claims.

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 03:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote iacas:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>As I said previously, this idea of common sense is faulty, based on faulty premises, and not backed by any serious biomechanical study.<hr /></blockquote>
I studied biomechanics. Guess what? The simpler the movement the more repeatable it is.

<hr /></blockquote> Name one sport that attempts to break down its motions into one part, considering the more powerful strokes, throws, hits, etc. You're a golfer, right? How many parts do you use when driving or chipping? Ever move your hips? Break your wrists? Of course you do. Even in putting, say a loooong putt, you don't just use one part, one motion. Why not? Why not hold the putter with one hand and only use the forearm? Because biomechanically, it's easier to hold it with both arms and move both arms, using both shoulders or hips as pivots.


Simpler movements, I agree with. But I think that believing that simpler has to mean less parts is a slippery slope.

Fred

Deeman3
02-14-2006, 03:44 PM
Probably the vast majority of players would benefit from having less movement in their strokes. This does not mean that all players are that way. Some gifted players can do things that others cannot. That being said, most of us would probably benefit from playing different shots with different strokes if we could control these different types of strokes on demand, like, for instance, a top llvel pro can. I do agree with Fred that just because a simpler action on a mechanical set-up is always easier to execute, that does not mean that the same is true with the human arm. If elbow drop is causing you to miss shots because you can't controil it, by all means change to the syncopated version. However, if you can pocket balls at a rate that is sastifactory dropping the elbow, then why not do it?

I tend to not drop my elbow on moderately paced difficult shots but do on power draws and other speciality shots. It works for me so I won't lose a lot of sleep over it.

Deeman

cushioncrawler
02-14-2006, 04:03 PM
In the past year i have been paying special attention to players (snooker mainly) who LIFT their elbow during their forwardswing. The video i watch most is a 6hr billiards final of Geet Sethi (India) -- Geet raises his elbow during 100% of all (normal) shots. Likewise a few top (snooker) players that i see on TV. It is allmost impossible not to (lift), if u hold the cue too close to the end of the butt. I envy such players -- it is a very accurate and repeatable style (but it needs a deformed wrist) -- unfortunately, i find it natural to hold the cue very short, not so good. But, surely there are a few top pool players who LIFT.

I suspect that players who LIFT can play very strong shots with more control than other players (who DROP). But there is allmost zero room for any follow throo -- hence i suspekt that a LIFTER will never set a world's record for a power break.

Bob_Jewett
02-14-2006, 04:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>... Also, some people might be able to generate more power by dropping their elbow during the entire stroke, even before cue ball contact (e.g., with a power break).... <hr /></blockquote>
From my nonkinesiologist perspective, I wonder if this is true for any shot with a normal stance. Moving the forearm down (dropping the elbow without moving the upper body) would seem not to move the cue stick forward, from a simple mechanics perspective.

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 04:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> I suspect that players who LIFT can play very strong shots with more control than other players (who DROP). But there is allmost zero room for any follow throo -- hence i suspekt that a LIFTER will never set a world's record for a power break. <hr /></blockquote>I can't speak to snooker, but Johnny Archer, George Breedlove, and Sarah Rousey (three breakers who absolutely bomb the power break) all lift the elbow then drop it to level. But, the stance is different, and they're letting the cue stick fly out.

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 04:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>... Also, some people might be able to generate more power by dropping their elbow during the entire stroke, even before cue ball contact (e.g., with a power break).... <hr /></blockquote>
From my nonkinesiologist perspective, I wonder if this is true for any shot with a normal stance. Moving the forearm down (dropping the elbow without moving the upper body) would seem not to move the cue stick forward, from a simple mechanics perspective. <hr /></blockquote>This is why we need to have a biomechanical study done. Incidentally, for those who have no clue, a biomechanical study would not simply say "this is better than that." It's a study of forces and movement in different parts of the body in motion. So, in this case, studying the force, velocities, etc. would give an indication as to why and how one stroke might give more or less velocity than another stroke.

They do it bowling. Surely someone's done it for billiards.

Edit: Bob, did you ever get a chance to slow motion video players who drop the elbow to see if the elbow drop is a happenstance/consequence or an instigator in what you called the standard power stroke?

Fred

dr_dave
02-14-2006, 04:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>I'm NOT saying that dropping your elbow will increase your consistency. I AM saying that an elbow drop makes certain power strokes easier to execute. And dropping the elbow isn't doom and gloom, but it could heighten your skill level.<hr /></blockquote>
Sounds good to me. Well stated. I agree.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-14-2006, 04:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>... Also, some people might be able to generate more power by dropping their elbow during the entire stroke, even before cue ball contact (e.g., with a power break).... <hr /></blockquote>
From my nonkinesiologist perspective, I wonder if this is true for any shot with a normal stance. Moving the forearm down (dropping the elbow without moving the upper body) would seem not to move the cue stick forward, from a simple mechanics perspective. <hr /></blockquote>
I guess I am assuming that the shooter, in addition to dropping the elbow, is doing something else (with their body and/or shoulder) that allows more power. I agree with you that elbow drop alone doesn't provide added power, but the shoulder can get involved when the elbow is dropped.

Regards,
Dave

cushioncrawler
02-14-2006, 04:55 PM
What i was thinking, more exactly, is that if u hold your forearm vertically at address, or beyong vertical (ie if u hold the cue "too" close to the butt), then, during the backswing, if the cue is to remain "level", the elbow must DROP. Then, during the first half of the forwardswing, the elbow must LIFT (if the cue is to remain "level"). I suspect that the second half of the forwardswing (ie the follow-throo) is allmost non-existant for such players -- but perhaps the elbow DROPS a little, and the butt lifts a little.

If one's elbow stays still during a full backswing, the butt lifts (up) allmost the length of one's forearm. Then, if the elbow stays still during the first half of the forwardswing, the butt drops the same distance. That adds up to a lot of up and down for the butt.

It just occurred to me, for a power-break, if u DROP your elbow on the follow-throo, then u have the advantage of being able to use your standard length bridge for the shot. U simply set-up with as much daylight between the tip and the cueball as u wish (perhaps 6") -- then, u drop your elbow during the follow-throo, and u hit the cueball halfway throo your follow-throo, using as much body movement as u like also perhaps -- a bit like Long John Daley. Is such "daylight" a part of your formula Fred??

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 05:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> What i was thinking, more exactly, is that if u hold your forearm vertically at address, or beyong vertical (ie if u hold the cue "too" close to the butt), then, during the backswing, if the cue is to remain "level", the elbow must DROP. Then, during the first half of the forwardswing, the elbow must LIFT (if the cue is to remain "level"). I suspect that the second half of the forwardswing (ie the follow-throo) is allmost non-existant for such players -- but perhaps the elbow DROPS a little, and the butt lifts a little.<hr /></blockquote> Oh! I got it now. I didn't understand you before. So, the elbow lifts from the end of the backstroke (the Pause) all the way until the forearm is back at address. Can you name the players who do this? I'd love to see a video. You're right, you couldn't power break this way. I think you'd break your elbow.


[ QUOTE ]
If one's elbow stays still during a full backswing, the butt lifts (up) allmost the length of one's forearm. Then, if the elbow stays still during the first half of the forwardswing, the butt drops the same distance. That adds up to a lot of up and down for the butt.<hr /></blockquote> This is the standard pendulum stroke that's being discussed. Bob Jewett has a good article on it at

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-02.pdf
and
http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/2004-03.pdf

[ QUOTE ]
It just occurred to me, for a power-break, if u DROP your elbow on the follow-throo, then u have the advantage of being able to use your standard length bridge for the shot. U simply set-up with as much daylight between the tip and the cueball as u wish (perhaps 6") -- then, u drop your elbow during the follow-throo, and u hit the cueball halfway throo your follow-throo, using as much body movement as u like also perhaps -- a bit like Long John Daley. Is such "daylight" a part of your formula Fred?? <hr /></blockquote>Most hard breakers don't do this, but rather they address right at the white, but they address low, sometimes to the very base of the ball. That way, when the elbow drops, the tip rises, and the proper point on the white is (hopefully) struck.

I think if I kept daylight between the tip and ball at address, my cuestick would be naturally slowing down by the time I hit the white. Something to think about, though, as a BCA instructor had me address the ball with my forearm forward of perpendicular. I think this might accomplish the same thing. I don't know what it does, but I've noticed some very strong breakers set up like this as well.

Fred

Bob_Jewett
02-14-2006, 06:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... Bob, did you ever get a chance to slow motion video players who drop the elbow to see if the elbow drop is a happenstance/consequence or an instigator in what you called the standard power stroke?... <hr /></blockquote>
No, but my impression -- and my own feeling in my arm -- is that failing to drop the elbow at the end of a power stroke is very, very hard on the arm. I think the four-inch drop that is fairly common is sufficient to prevent pinching the biceps on medium power shots, such as draw the cue ball back six diamonds from a ball six diamonds away.

joepool
02-14-2006, 06:25 PM
i am a recent graduate of the SPF advanced class and also teach. Although not certified, I am considered by some to be "certifiable" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

This topic, the "elbow drop", is especially interesting to me right now. I have noticed that on my break shot when I am "amping it up", th

joepool
02-14-2006, 06:31 PM
(had a pc problem, sorry)
anyway i was going to say that on my "power" break I find myself coming through the ball and to a standing position which will naturally bring my elbow down to stay on my line of aim....it feels natural and i am happy with the results ... most of the time

Cueless Joey
02-14-2006, 06:31 PM
Efren does not drop his elbow.
He lets the cue go.

pooltchr
02-14-2006, 06:37 PM
Fred,
You are making some valid points. I would just like to say that the vast majority of students who come to me are looking for consistancy. The best way to achieve this is SPF and no elbow drop. There are select shots where dropping the elbow may allow more power, but that same majority would be giving up a lot of accuracy to gain the power. In my opinion, accuracy is more critical than power. There are always going to be players at the top of the game who can control a full arm stroke with accuracy and consistancy. They would be in the minority.

I have had very good success helping students improve their control by using the pendilum stroke. As an instructor, I have to consider each student as an individual, so I can't say I would ever say that a student MUST not drop their elbow. But so far, whenever I have had a student try the pendilum stroke, they have shown very quick improvement in accuracy. I have one student who uses this stroke on his break! He regularly makes something (often multiple balls) and almost always lands the cue ball in the center of the table. I don't see any reason to introduce a full arm swing to a player who would be better served from an accuracy standpoint by developing a simpler motion. When the student comes to me who can consistantly make controlled contact with a full arm stroke, I don't think I would suggest any changes. Until that student appears, I think this is the best method to teach. There are going to be exceptions, but I suspect they are few and far between.
Steve

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 06:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... Bob, did you ever get a chance to slow motion video players who drop the elbow to see if the elbow drop is a happenstance/consequence or an instigator in what you called the standard power stroke?... <hr /></blockquote>
No, but my impression -- and my own feeling in my arm -- is that failing to drop the elbow at the end of a power stroke is very, very hard on the arm. <hr /></blockquote>That really could be all there is to it. You can get more power dropping the arm because if you drop, you're less likely to crank your arm/elbow. If you don't drop, you better not amp up the speed.

In your observation that Robles didn't drop his elbow on fast shots at the Mosconi Cup, what was the mechanism to get higher speed? Additional wrist whip, or does he just have a stronger arm?

Fred

Cornerman
02-14-2006, 07:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Fred,
You are making some valid points. I would just like to say that the vast majority of students who come to me are looking for consistancy. The best way to achieve this is SPF and no elbow drop. There are select shots where dropping the elbow may allow more power, but that same majority would be giving up a lot of accuracy to gain the power. In my opinion, accuracy is more critical than power. There are always going to be players at the top of the game who can control a full arm stroke with accuracy and consistancy. They would be in the minority.<hr /></blockquote> Of course they'd be the minority. The top players are the minority. And elbow dropping full strokers are rampant among above average players, the best players in the town, the majority of Master players. But of course, all of these players combined are the minority. For me, I'd think striving to be part of this minority would be a good goal.

[ QUOTE ]
I have had very good success helping students improve their control by using the pendilum stroke. As an instructor, I have to consider each student as an individual, so I can't say I would ever say that a student MUST not drop their elbow. But so far, whenever I have had a student try the pendilum stroke, they have shown very quick improvement in accuracy. I have one student who uses this stroke on his break! He regularly makes something (often multiple balls) and almost always lands the cue ball in the center of the table. I don't see any reason to introduce a full arm swing to a player who would be better served from an accuracy standpoint by developing a simpler motion. When the student comes to me who can consistantly make controlled contact with a full arm stroke, I don't think I would suggest any changes. Until that student appears, I think this is the best method to teach. There are going to be exceptions, but I suspect they are few and far between.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>This is all well and good, Steve. I am a firm believer in the usefulness of SPF.

That being said, if you read the original poster's post, I think your latest post could have come earlier. He was very specific, looking for clarification from BCA instructors. I hope he's still reading. This was the clarification.

In fact, every time a poster asks about "why does my BCA instructor tell me 'no elbow drop'," it'd be nice to see a BCA instructor say, "we teach no elbow drop for consistency, but there are some shots that most players will naturally drop their elbow."

Or some such wording. We it hear from Fran. We hear it from Bob. It would be nice to hear it from other recognized instructors immediately, rather than (unintentionally) misleading their students and having idiots like me drag on incessantly these threads that I consider "Pet Peeve" while other consider it "dead horse."

Fred &lt;~~~ incessant horse beater

chicken_blood
02-14-2006, 07:39 PM
Yeah I am still here. Wow! lots of opinions. I am a firm believer in SPF because its what I was taught and it works for me. Although I do notice that I have to get lower over the cue to hit my set point consistenetly, and I sometimes skid balls. I was really just asking about the apparent difference between what the BCA teaches and the inodinate amount of pro players that drop their elbow.

chicken_blood
02-14-2006, 07:52 PM
On the tapes I have he definatly drops his elbow. Taped the monitor and ran it at 1/8th speed. He drops his elbow.

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 09:23 PM
Oops...just noticed an error in my previous post:


[ QUOTE ]
I'd have to see how you played without the elbow drop first. <hr /></blockquote>

I meant to write: I'd have to see how you played WITH the elbow drop first.

Sorry for any confusion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 10:37 PM
I think he mixes it up, Joey. I've seen him do both. For sure, he's the best darn cue-thrower I've ever seen. And the best at covering it up, too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-14-2006, 11:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Fran,

I am hoping you and/or others can answer some questions so I can better understand what you guys are suggesting:

1) Do you agree that dropping the elbow BEFORE cue ball contact might negatively affect one's contact-point consistency? <font color="blue"> Sure, during the learning process, just as with anything new that's being learned. But the really interesting thing about it is the amazing accuracy you get in your results. So how can you be mis-hitting the cue ball if the results are much improved? That is of course, if one takes the time to learn it.</font color>

2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous? <font color="blue"> One example would be shots where there's danger of jamming the pocket. That's about all I'm willing to share publically on that. You'll have to do some experimenting on your own to see what I mean.</font color>

3) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop AFTER cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous? <font color="blue"> I don't know for sure, but my guess would be none. </font color>

I think most people would agree that the elbow will tend to drop naturally after cue ball contact with power shots. Also, some people might be able to generate more power by dropping their elbow during the entire stroke, even before cue ball contact (e.g., with a power break). My main question is if you (or others) think elbow drop before cue ball contact should be discouraged or not, especially for beginner and intermediate players.

<font color="blue"> I think it's worth trying at every level of play. But what I don't agree with is telling someone who naturally drops their elbow to not do it or to instill fear in a beginner that it's a bad thing to do. How many times have you looked at a shot and thought to yourself, I don't think I have the stroke for that? </font color>

Thanks,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Good idea to study the pros. Most of them drop their elbows during certain types of shots. It's not necessary to do it every shot (although some do) but it can be a benefit on certain shots.

Try to figure out when they do it and then experiment yourself.

Fran <hr /></blockquote> <hr /></blockquote>

Rod
02-14-2006, 11:13 PM
Fred,

I've read several posts of yours in this thread. Those posts described a number of ways to make your message clear. If they don't get it then, they just don't.

If I had posted earlier, my description would be very similar to what Vagabond posted. I think beginning,intermediate to semi advanced players would be better off in some ways not to use such a move. They really don't understand stroke mechanics as such. Tough decision overall but I think its a restriction. For those that found the fixed elbow to be a big improvement, I'll bet you had a lot more problems than an elbow moving. Its a package you know!

The different styles of pool players may have an affect to drop or non-drop. By that I mean if your the newer style player IE, chin 1" or so over cue etc. which seems to be much more common today; then non-drop is more common. Where as the older style stand up players, elbow movement is natural. Just a thought.

From my perspective/knowledge of the game/stroke, I just can not fathom why moving a fast cue out of a direct straight line, calling it a simplified move, for the sake of finishing the tip on the cloth, not to mention the unnatural position of your arm, grip and wrist. Um long sentence huh? LOL If the cue was touching my chin it would be easer to be un-natural but my cue is well over a foot away. So what ever works best for ya.

Rod

Cueless Joey
02-15-2006, 01:05 AM
I'm watching the 1994 US Open final with Varner.
This was the time he was playing with that 60+ inch $15 cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Efren's elbow is pointed towards his body and he shows a very slight drop on his follow. He does let the cue slide even shooting the 9-ball at soft speed.

cushioncrawler
02-15-2006, 05:51 AM
Thanks for the link to Bob J's stuff -- i see that Bob's stuff is nigh-perfect as usual. Bob mentions 3 types of power-shot, the standared shot (pendulum) with drop, the piston (the one i was most interested in), and the over-drop. Bob infers that the standard pendulum stroke is not a power-stroke -- which i agree with -- i tried to use a plain pendulum for a power stroke a few times and i couldnt do it, it doesnt exist in this dimension (my brain was hurting and i had to give up).

Nextly, i notice that Bob sez that Jeremy Jones and Lee Jones use the piston stroke. Ok, now i feel better, it appears that some pool players do use the piston stroke.

I reckon that every player who holds the cue "too" near the end, and every player who has a giant backswing, use the piston stroke. U ask who (snooker) -- ok, lets start with John Higgins (i was just looking at a CD of him a few minutes ago to double-check). Last year i vizited Steve Mifsud -- Steve entered the IBSF World Snooker twice, he won it the first time, and he was runner-up to the next Ronnie O'Sullivan the other time, and Steve is in England having a 3rd go as i speak. Why i mention this is, i was watching the tapes of his win, and the runner-up (English, a pro, thats his name, not his country, nor his spin) had what must be the mother of all Piston strokes. And, Steve's younger brother, James, (ranked about 5 in Aust snooker) has a piston stroke. And my mate Phil (6 times i think Aust billiards champ) has a piston stroke.

When i got to my mountain hideaway this arvo -- i grabbed some 30cent chalk, a $3 ball (2-1/8"), my $30 cue (no ferrule), and put them on my $40,000 Duke (12' by 6'), and hit the ball as hard as i could.

My best hit (6-1/2 lengths) was with a piston stroke. I was surprised. It didnt hurt, and i didnt break my arm.

A pendulum with drop gave me 6-1/8 lengths only. This was with at least 10 attempts, hitting dead center, above center, and below center.

I think that the reason that the Piston won, was that i use about 6" of daylight at address using this style -- but i dont actually use 6" of daylight -- i hold the cue near the end and hold my forearm 6" foreward of vertical (like your BCA tutor mentioned), so that the tip is almost touching the cueball.

Which reminds me -- a lot of the old time authors mentioned the piston style, when i think that they really meant the pendulum style. Well, in the old days, pistons were pendulums -- the cylinder (steam) was pinned at one end, and the piston connected directly to the wheel.

Not that the above tests were fair or true -- for one thing, my cue is about 2" short of what i would choose if i had to play a power shot -- which reminds me, i cut 2" off it last year, hence the zero ferrule, Hmmmmmmmmm.

Anyhow, i know that power-shots are not what this whole forum was originally about -- but, nonetheless, my main point was allways this -- Piston players do exist, and they are not lepers.

DickLeonard
02-15-2006, 07:30 AM
Fran, Joe Canton would tell me that the Palm of his hand guided his cue on the follow through. The only way this could be accomplished was by dropping the elbow.####

dr_dave
02-15-2006, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Fran,

I am hoping you and/or others can answer some questions so I can better understand what you guys are suggesting:

1) Do you agree that dropping the elbow BEFORE cue ball contact might negatively affect one's contact-point consistency? <font color="blue"> Sure, during the learning process, just as with anything new that's being learned. But the really interesting thing about it is the amazing accuracy you get in your results. So how can you be mis-hitting the cue ball if the results are much improved? That is of course, if one takes the time to learn it.</font color><hr /></blockquote>
I'm all for results. That's what it's all about. If someone naturally drops their elbow (or doesn't) and has good accuracy and consistency, there is no reason to change. However, if someone is unhappy with their accuracy or consistency, they should consider other approaches (e.g., try dropping the elbow or not). And I agree with you that the person should allow time for learning and improvement to take place, even if the changes feel unnatural at first.

Regards,
Dave

PS: Thank you for all of your answers and comments.

Fran Crimi
02-15-2006, 09:15 AM
That's interesting. I bet he had plenty of room to let the cue slide with that length cue. Maybe he drops his elbow more when he plays with a shorter cue, particularly on the stretch shots.

Fran

dr_dave
02-15-2006, 09:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous? <font color="blue"> One example would be shots where there's danger of jamming the pocket. That's about all I'm willing to share publically on that. You'll have to do some experimenting on your own to see what I mean.</font color><hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "danger of jamming the pocket." Would you please explain what this is and how dropping the elbow before cue ball contact can help avoid it?

Thanks,
Dave

Fran Crimi
02-15-2006, 09:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
However, if someone is unhappy with their accuracy or consistency, they should consider other approaches (e.g., try dropping the elbow or not). <hr /></blockquote>

Yes and no, Dave. You have to be very careful about stuff like that. Sometimes amateurs who drop their elbows may tend to raise their elbows up in the final backstroke. That could be the cause of their inconsistency. Fix that problem and all may be solved...there are a couple of other smaller possibilities as well.

Instead, what we see only too often is an instructor who sees an inconsistent player dropping their elbow and immediately focuses on that as the culprit and then proceeds to convice the player that they should change to a non-elbow drop stroke. The player buys into it because he starts to see more consistency. But he just lost out on a major tool in his game, namely the power of the elbow drop stroke for certain shots. For what? All because the instructor didn't make the right assessment.

Fran

Fran Crimi
02-15-2006, 09:34 AM
When are you in danger of jamming a pocket on a shot? Think about it and you'll find the answer.

Fran

dr_dave
02-15-2006, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>However, if someone is unhappy with their accuracy or consistency, they should consider other approaches (e.g., try dropping the elbow or not). <hr /></blockquote>

Yes and no, Dave. You have to be very careful about stuff like that. Sometimes amateurs who drop their elbows may tend to raise their elbows up in the final backstroke. That could be the cause of their inconsistency. Fix that problem and all may be solved...there are a couple of other smaller possibilities as well.

Instead, what we see only too often is an instructor who sees an inconsistent player dropping their elbow and immediately focuses on that as the culprit and then proceeds to convice the player that they should change to a non-elbow drop stroke. The player buys into it because he starts to see more consistency. But he just lost out on a major tool in his game, namely the power of the elbow drop stroke for certain shots. For what? All because the instructor didn't make the right assessment.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
No disagreements here. I was just listing elbow drop as an example. I agree that the presence or absence of an elbow drop should not be the only focus of an instructor's attention.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
02-15-2006, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> When are you in danger of jamming a pocket on a shot? Think about it and you'll find the answer.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
I have thought about it. My questions (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=218827&amp;page =&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) still remain unasnswered (see below). I would like for you to share your answers (i.e., please).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous? <font color="blue"> One example would be shots where there's danger of jamming the pocket. That's about all I'm willing to share publically on that. You'll have to do some experimenting on your own to see what I mean.</font color><hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "danger of jamming the pocket." Would you please explain what this is and how dropping the elbow before cue ball contact can help avoid it?

Thanks,
Dave<hr /></blockquote>

Fran Crimi
02-15-2006, 09:58 AM
Sorry you can't figure it out, Dave. I gave a pretty substantial clue. Specific examples are reserved for my students.

Fran

dr_dave
02-15-2006, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Sorry you can't figure it out, Dave. I gave a pretty substantial clue. Specific examples are reserved for my students.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I guess I'm just too dense. I won't ask a third time.

If someone else out there knows the answers and is willing to share them, I would appreciate responses. For convenience, I've included the original questions below.

Regards,
Dave

PS: I would love to take a lesson with you one day. You seem like you would be a good instructor. If you were closer to Fort Collins, and if I had the time, I would definitely consider it. I am always willing to learn about different approaches and perspectives.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous? <font color="blue"> One example would be shots where there's danger of jamming the pocket. That's about all I'm willing to share publically on that. You'll have to do some experimenting on your own to see what I mean.</font color><hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "danger of jamming the pocket." Would you please explain what this is and how dropping the elbow before cue ball contact can help avoid it?

Thanks,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

dr_dave
02-15-2006, 10:23 AM
I have one example in HSV A.121 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-121.htm). The guy is a good shooter with a powerful break. I'm not suggesting his stroke is necessarily representative of a great breaker (e.g., his follow-through looks a little constrained to me), but he does have elbow drop with shoulder and body motion, and these actions seem to help him generate more power.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>... Bob, did you ever get a chance to slow motion video players who drop the elbow to see if the elbow drop is a happenstance/consequence or an instigator in what you called the standard power stroke?... <hr /></blockquote>
No, but my impression -- and my own feeling in my arm -- is that failing to drop the elbow at the end of a power stroke is very, very hard on the arm. I think the four-inch drop that is fairly common is sufficient to prevent pinching the biceps on medium power shots, such as draw the cue ball back six diamonds from a ball six diamonds away. <hr /></blockquote>

SPetty
02-15-2006, 06:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>In fact, every time a poster asks about "why does my BCA instructor tell me 'no elbow drop'," it'd be nice to see a BCA instructor say, "we teach no elbow drop for consistency, but there are some shots that most players will naturally drop their elbow."

Or some such wording. We it hear from Fran. We hear it from Bob. It would be nice to hear it from other recognized instructors immediately, rather than (unintentionally) misleading their students and having idiots like me drag on incessantly these threads that I consider "Pet Peeve" while other consider it "dead horse."<hr /></blockquote>Fred, thanks for sticking to it. I doubt I'm the only lurker on this thread that appreciates the effort you've gone through to make the points you've made. 'Preciate it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Stretch
02-16-2006, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> I'm watching the 1994 US Open final with Varner.
This was the time he was playing with that 60+ inch $15 cue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Efren's elbow is pointed towards his body and he shows a very slight drop on his follow. He does let the cue slide even shooting the 9-ball at soft speed. <hr /></blockquote>

Cueless, I've developed a super light grip and sometimes the cue slides a bit unintentionally. I never considered it to be either good or bad and rarely made a difference except for one thing. Whenever it happens the contact makes a distinct sound. When my cue starts talking to me like that i find i'm playing great. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

Scott Lee
02-16-2006, 01:36 PM
Well...I read every post here, and I'll say only one thing...to each their own. As one of several top BCA instructors, who do NOT advocate an 'elbow drop', I'll clarify one issue at hand. That is the difference between an 'elbow drop' of 4" (or less), as described by Jewett, and a total elbow "collapse", where the elbow is pointing straight down at the table, and the end of the cue is 12+ inches past a "normal" finish position, for a pendulum swing stroke. There is, imo, a huge difference between the two. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I challenge Fran to a contest shot-for-for shot, where she can do something by collapsing the elbow, that I can't by not collapsing the elbow.

Scott Lee

SPetty
02-16-2006, 02:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I'll clarify one issue at hand. That is the difference between an 'elbow drop' of 4" (or less), as described by Jewett, and a total elbow "collapse", where the elbow is pointing straight down at the table, and the end of the cue is 12+ inches past a "normal" finish position, for a pendulum swing stroke.<hr /></blockquote>That's a good point. <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I challenge Fran to a contest shot-for-for shot, where she can do something by collapsing the elbow, that I can't by not collapsing the elbow.<hr /></blockquote>I read the whole thread, and there's no need for this challenge. No one has said that there is any shot that requires an elbow drop. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Eric.
02-16-2006, 03:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> Well...I read every post here, and I'll say only one thing...to each their own. As one of several top BCA instructors, who do NOT advocate an 'elbow drop', I'll clarify one issue at hand. That is the difference between an 'elbow drop' of 4" (or less), as described by Jewett, and a total elbow "collapse", where the elbow is pointing straight down at the table, and the end of the cue is 12+ inches past a "normal" finish position, for a pendulum swing stroke. There is, imo, a huge difference between the two. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...I challenge Fran to a contest shot-for-for shot, where she can do something by collapsing the elbow, that I can't by not collapsing the elbow.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott, everytime this topic comes up, you insist that elbow drop and a "total collapse of the elbow" are the same thing. I don't think anyone has ever suggested a "total collapse" of the elbow. There is a world of difference and by lumping any elbow drop at all into the same category as a total collapse is just plain ignorant. C'mon already.

I'm not Fran or Fred (or the Walrus for that matter) but it sounded like their position was that some shots can be made with less effort using the "slight" elbow drop. I'm sure you can make any shot with a pinned elbow that the elbow droppers can (then again, maybe you can't) but that isn't the debate. The issue is how much effort is needed, with the thinking that the less effort used, the more precise your shots will be.

Hope this helps.


Eric

Alfie
02-17-2006, 12:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Fran,

I guess I'm just too dense. I won't ask a third time.<hr /></blockquote>Francine, Dave doesn't want to know when or how one is in danger of jamming the pocket. He wants to know what "jamming the pocket" is? I, too, have never heard this expression.

Fran Crimi
02-17-2006, 08:36 AM
When the ball jumps back and forth between the two facings of a pocket and then spits back out. It's a very well-known term, at least in this country.

Bob_Jewett
02-17-2006, 09:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> When the ball jumps back and forth between the two facings of a pocket and then spits back out. It's a very well-known term, at least in this country. <hr /></blockquote>
It's not used in this part of the country, but the meaning was clear from context.

dr_dave
02-17-2006, 09:25 AM
Thanks Fran and Bob.

I and others I've asked have also never heard of "jamming the pocket." I would refer to it as the ball "rattles out of the pocket." This happens when the ball hits the near rail cushion or point with speed before entering the pocket. I have a good demonstration of this effect at NV 3.13 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV3-13.htm). Also, super slow motion clip HSV 3.8 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/HSV3-8.htm) shows why it happens fairly clearly. The cushion imparts sidespin to the ball, changing the rebound angle off the inner wall of the pocket. My Nov '04 - Jan '05 instructional articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) also have some good illustrations, descriptions, and online demos of this and other related effects.

Now, my other question still remains. How would dropping the elbow help one reduce the chances for pocket rattle? If someone were more consistent and accurate when dropping the elbow, the answer would be clear, but I'm not so sure elbow drop would necessarily help most people with consistency and accuracy, even for faster speed shots.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> When the ball jumps back and forth between the two facings of a pocket and then spits back out. It's a very well-known term, at least in this country. <hr /></blockquote>
It's not used in this part of the country, but the meaning was clear from context. <hr /></blockquote>

Cornerman
02-17-2006, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Thanks Fran and Bob.

I and others I've asked have also never heard of "jamming the pocket." I would refer to it as the ball "rattles out of the pocket." <hr /></blockquote>

Jarring the pocket
Jawing the pocket

Fred

eg8r
02-17-2006, 10:17 AM
My reply is meant to be taken as humorous only, but this quote, [ QUOTE ]
This is why we need to have a biomechanical study done. Incidentally, for those who have no clue, a biomechanical study would not simply say "this is better than that." It's a study of forces and movement in different parts of the body in motion. So, in this case, studying the force, velocities, etc. would give an indication as to why and how one stroke might give more or less velocity than another stroke.
<hr /></blockquote> reminds of of the Global Warming argument. All the scientists are in their labs requesting more and more research/study to confirm global warming, while all those that don't know are out playing in the snow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Bob_Jewett
02-17-2006, 10:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>... requesting more and more research/study to confirm global warming, while all those that don't know are out playing in the snow. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Which must be quite a change for you there in Orlando. Personally, I doubt that climate change in the next 100 years or so will make the planet completely uninhabitable, and a reduction of population by 99% wouldn't be all bad. No wait for a table on Friday night, for example.

Jal
02-17-2006, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> When the ball jumps back and forth between the two facings of a pocket and then spits back out. It's a very well-known term, at least in this country. <hr /></blockquote>
It's not used in this part of the country, but the meaning was clear from context. <hr /></blockquote>There are at least three of us for which the meaning was not at all extractable from the context, perhaps because it's not clear how this can have anything to do with what the elbow is doing.

Unlike Dr. Dave, I am dense, so maybe that has something to do with it, but it doesn't explain his failure to see it.

Jim

SpiderMan
02-17-2006, 11:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Thanks Fran and Bob.

I and others I've asked have also never heard of "jamming the pocket." I would refer to it as the ball "rattles out of the pocket." <hr /></blockquote>

Jarring the pocket
Jawing the pocket

Fred <hr /></blockquote>

I too, have never heard this called "jamming". We call it "rattling". I think I may have heard "Jarring" used in that context. "Jawing", to me, is a special case where the ball remains in the "jaws" of the pocket, rather than being spit out.

I guess it may depend on where you're from.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
02-17-2006, 12:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> When the ball jumps back and forth between the two facings of a pocket and then spits back out. It's a very well-known term, at least in this country. <hr /></blockquote>
It's not used in this part of the country, but the meaning was clear from context. <hr /></blockquote>There are at least three of us for which the meaning was not at all extractable from the context, perhaps because it's not clear how this can have anything to do with what the elbow is doing.

Unlike Dr. Dave, I am dense, so maybe that has something to do with it, but it doesn't explain his failure to see it.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>
Jim,

Thanks you for defending my density. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif I appreciate it.

Dave

Fran Crimi
02-17-2006, 01:28 PM
Sorry about that, Dave. I had no idea that you were asking what jamming the pocket meant. I wasn't getting that from your responses. I just assumed you knew. I'm really surprised that so many people here claim to never have heard of the term. I've been using it my whole pool life, and not just in discussions with New Yorkers. It always seemed to me to be universally used, including by road players coming through town and so-forth. I guess it's just pool slang.

I never heard of the term 'elbow collapse.' I keep picturing an elbow crumbling to pieces. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Fran~~Awaiting next post by Dave, titled: "Pool Slang', or "Use of different pool terminologies' (or something like that....) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
02-17-2006, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Sorry about that, Dave. I had no idea that you were asking what jamming the pocket meant. I wasn't getting that from your responses. I just assumed you knew. I'm really surprised that so many people here claim to never have heard of the term. I've been using it my whole pool life, and not just in discussions with New Yorkers. It always seemed to me to be universally used, including by road players coming through town and so-forth. I guess it's just pool slang.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

Thank you for your apology. I accept.

That was my first question. My second question was how dropping one's elbow before cue ball contact can help one minimize or eliminate "pocket jamming" (or "rattle"). If you weren't implying that in your earlier message (see below), then I apologize.

If a person has better accuracy and consistency with an elbow drop, then the answer is clear. However, I'm not sure if I am missing something else or not.

Regards,
Dave

from an earlier message:
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
2) For what types of shots do you think elbow drop BEFORE cue ball contact is required and/or advantageous? <font color="blue"> One example would be shots where there's danger of jamming the pocket. That's about all I'm willing to share publically on that. You'll have to do some experimenting on your own to see what I mean.</font color><hr /></blockquote><hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "danger of jamming the pocket." Would you please explain what this is and how dropping the elbow before cue ball contact can help avoid it?

Thanks,
Dave<hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
02-17-2006, 03:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>We call it "rattling". I think I may have heard "Jarring" used in that context. "Jawing", to me, is a special case where the ball remains in the "jaws" of the pocket, rather than being spit out.

I guess it may depend on where you're from.

SpiderMan <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Rattlin' the pocket, Memphis circa 1970. Also known as a Deeman in some circles..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif</font color>

Rich R.
02-17-2006, 07:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Fran~~Awaiting next post by Dave, titled: "Pool Slang', or "Use of different pool terminologies' (or something like that....) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
<hr /></blockquote>And I'm sure he will refer us all to his web site for more information. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif