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dg-in-centralpa
02-13-2006, 05:18 PM
It's now posted that the IPT tour will conflict with the Mosconi Cup, World Pool Championships, and US Open. Sounds to me like KT is trying to either break up the other tournaments or test the players loyalty. He had plenty of time to put his tour dates so they wouldn't conflict. Now I guess that everyone else is to change. Will the players risk being thrown out of the IPT if they want to play the Mosconi Cup? Hmmm... just a thought. I understand that sometimes a date may overlap, but not the three biggest tournaments. What's next?

DG - starting to dislike KT /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

cueball1950
02-13-2006, 06:02 PM
Hi Duane...they have been battling this subject over on az for almost a week now. just to bad and to sad. but i will be at the Open again this year as all the years in the past....mike

dg-in-centralpa
02-13-2006, 06:16 PM
Mike,
Sorry if this is old news, I don't have time to browse AZ as well as CCB. Not enough time in a day. I'll have to check their opinions. I am also planning on going to the Open.

Duane

Rich R.
02-13-2006, 07:36 PM
I had thought that the IPT was the best thing to happen to pool. With these current developments, I have lost that feeling.

Previous statements by KT indicated that they would not have tournaments that conflicted with other major tournaments around the world.

Quote from KT on the IPT web site, Questions and Answers section --- "My goal is to have the IPT enhance all other tours and tournaments. I do not want to have any conflicts with any other tours or tournaments. I am in the process of putting together the 2006 and 2007 schedule now. My staff is in contact with the other major tours around the world and we are doing our best not to have conflicting tournaments."

Last week they released their 2006 schedule and there are a number of conflicts.

The IPT scheduled 6 tournaments and, per a post on AZB, they have conflicts with the following tournaments.

World 8 Ball Championships
World 9 Ball Championships
US Open 9 Ball Championships
Mosconi Cup
San Miguel Tour Stop
Euro Tour Holland

I can't believe this is all a coincedence.

For me, the luster is gone from the IPT. Although the IPT will be having the best tournament pay outs in the history of pool, KT has made it clear that he is only commited for 2006 and 2007. What happens if he decides to pull out, after putting all of these other tournaments out of business?

dg-in-centralpa
02-14-2006, 05:50 AM
Rich,
It seems to me that KT is trying to put the others out of business so he's the only one around. He's already said that you MUST be in attendance the whole week. Even if you're not playing, or you lose your eligibility to play. After the others break up, he'll offer less money because he'll be the only one left standing. I'm glad I didn't fill out the application to try and join. A week off work with no income just to sit at the tournament to create full stands, in hopes that he will pick me to play at some point. No thanks!

DG

Steve Lipsky
02-14-2006, 07:08 AM
Hi Rich,

Yep. David Sapolis also saw this coming, and made a very insightful post about it on AZ a few months ago. I can't believe how right he seems to be - KT is going to put all these other tours out of business, and there will be a vast empty wasteland if and when he pulls out.

I sure hope the US Open survives. I will always have very fond memories of that tournament.

- Steve

Rich R.
02-14-2006, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Steve Lipsky:</font><hr> Hi Rich,

Yep. David Sapolis also saw this coming, and made a very insightful post about it on AZ a few months ago. I can't believe how right he seems to be - KT is going to put all these other tours out of business, and there will be a vast empty wasteland if and when he pulls out.

I sure hope the US Open survives. I will always have very fond memories of that tournament.

- Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Steve, I remember when David made his post. At that time, I thought, or wished, he was wrong. David is very insightful and he seems to be right on target, with the IPT.

I think there are a lot of us wishing and hoping that arrangements can be made for the Open to survive. It would be a sad day in the world of pool, if it does not.

Vagabond
02-14-2006, 08:45 PM
Hi RichR,
I feel the same . /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

snook
02-15-2006, 01:42 AM
so i understand the payouts are huge.... but how hard is it for the players to tell kt to shove it?

i would imagine if kt is only in it for the money, and 75 percent of his players pulled out unless he changed his dates, he would change them.... his idea only works if people are greedy...

Rich R.
02-15-2006, 04:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote snook:</font><hr> so i understand the payouts are huge.... but how hard is it for the players to tell kt to shove it?
<hr /></blockquote> As the situation in pro pool stands, it is impossible for the players to tell KT "to shove it". Never before have they had the opportunity to make this kind of money and they may never have the chance again, if/when KT decides to give up on the IPT.

It is up to KT to show a little class and not bully the other tournaments that have been established for many years.

Fortunately, it appears that Barry B. has been able to reschedule the U.S. Open and that tournament will be safe for this year. Hopefully, the other conflicting tournaments will be able to reschedule too.

jjinfla
02-15-2006, 04:07 PM
Have a little faith everyone. KT has put together quite a team and so far it is all at his expense and all the money is going to the players. And still everyone trashes him. If he does pull out the players will have you to thank.

The players on the IPT Tour all seem to have confidence in him and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

And what an idiotic statement for the players not to show up. Do you all realize how much money is at stake? $350,000 for first place. $30,000 for 18, $2,000 for last place. That's $2,000 if you never win a game. Unheard of in the history of pool. A professional pool player getting paid just for showing up. How outrageous is that.

And look at all the players who are paying $2000 just to qualify and be on the tour. How many naysayers said it was too much money and no one would show up? Looks like KT was proven right again.

The US Open has been rescheduled and will be held at the end of September. And didn't I hear people complaining when Barry had it scheduled at the beginning of Sept anyway.

The Mosconi Cup is rescheduled and will not be affected.

Does anyone really care about the other four tournaments? But I am sure they will all be held.

Jake

DSAPOLIS
02-15-2006, 05:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Have a little faith everyone. KT has put together quite a team and so far it is all at his expense and all the money is going to the players. And still everyone trashes him. If he does pull out the players will have you to thank.

<font color="blue"> Mackey tried the same thing, Jake - he and Bob Meucci were still blaming me on RSB in 1999 for the downfall of the Camel Tour. You would think by now I would have learned to keep the truth to myself.</font color>

The players on the IPT Tour all seem to have confidence in him and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

<font color="blue"> They are willing to stick around as long as Trudeau is paying them. That is blind loyalty, not confidence. Big difference. </font color>

And what an idiotic statement for the players not to show up. Do you all realize how much money is at stake? $350,000 for first place. $30,000 for 18, $2,000 for last place. That's $2,000 if you never win a game. Unheard of in the history of pool. A professional pool player getting paid just for showing up. How outrageous is that.

<font color="blue"> I think its very outrageous. I long for the days when you actually had to put some balls in the pockets to get the cash. </font color>

And look at all the players who are paying $2000 just to qualify and be on the tour. How many naysayers said it was too much money and no one would show up? Looks like KT was proven right again.

<font color="blue">I have personally spoken to players that have stated that they would not be playing in another $2000 Qualifier. Its not because they dont support KT, its because its too difficult to finance that sort of thing. </font color>

The US Open has been rescheduled and will be held at the end of September. And didn't I hear people complaining when Barry had it scheduled at the beginning of Sept anyway.

<font color="blue">No assistance from Kevin, mind you. That was Barry's reputation paying off with the city of Chesapeake. </font color>

The Mosconi Cup is rescheduled and will not be affected.

<font color="blue">It must make Kevin feel everso powerful to have everybody reacting to his decisonmaking. </font color>

Does anyone really care about the other four tournaments? But I am sure they will all be held.

<font color="blue"> Yes. People do care.

For those that have said I was right on target with my comments, please understand that I get my information from people that have much more knowledge about what is going on than I do. I have always contended that if KT truly cared about pool, that he would have assisted in financing the existing tours. What he has done is created his own tour with his own money on his own terms. Besides getting more money, the players have even less control over their destiny than they did in the past. This guy can close up shop tomorrow and nobody would be left with anything (except maybe Sigel and Reyes) - Trudeau has failed to recognize that the WPA exists, he has failed to recognize that the WCBS exists. For those that do not know, a lot of work has been done trying to position ourselves as a recognized sport by the IOC. To do so, we must meet certain criteria. We have already been showcased at the World Games. Anyone that says that we have not made progress over the past 15 years does not know what they are talking about.

Here is a breakdown of how the WCBA operates - and attached is a link to their website which outlines their history.

http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/images/Organigramm_WCBS.jpg

http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/

The WCBS recognizes billiards as a sport consisting of 3 separate disciplines, Billiards, Pool, &amp; Snooker. This organization has been in place for years and fighting every step of the way to advance our sport, yet Trudeau claims it doesnt exist. What does not exist is cohesion within our industry in North America. The IPT won't help that, it will just make the wounds deeper between pro pool and the billiards industry. The game of pool is extremely popular in Asia and Europe yet it suffers at the hands of greed by putting faith in people such as Don Mackey and Kevin Trudeau. Both mean well, but their interests come before the inetersts of the game. That will kill us every single time. Its more than just about money. People don't get along. They don't. Most of you have heard about it, I've seen it. Money won't solve those issues, it will just complicate them.
</font color>

Wayne
02-15-2006, 06:26 PM
I was wondering what some of the naysayers would have to say if the IPT tournaments continue to be very successful,it becomes very popular on TV, a lot of professional players are making a great living, a lot more people are playing pool etc. Is it really impossible for some to envision this?

As far as the progress that has been made over the last 15 years I wonder about that? I have (over the last few years)had some of the best players in the world, several who are members of the IPT bumming money off me so they could eat, or pawning stuff to me so they could afford to get to a tournament. Some of them are really nice guys but they do questionable things because of their financial burdens. Now they at least have hope. Even if KT is a longshot he is definitely the best shot for most of the best players in the world. I am really rooting for him and them.

Wayne

jjinfla
02-15-2006, 06:41 PM
I suppose you want us to play soccer and cricket or whatever that game is instead of football and baseball.

I didn't start following pool until 1998 so Mackey is before my time but I doubt comparing Trudeau to Mackey is an honest comparison. In fact it is ridiculous.

I know a guy who played in the last qualifier too. Will he do it again? Probably not. But not because he thinks it is too expensive, he just is not good enough of a player.

Tell me what any pool player has lost if KT decides to call it quits after the 1st tournament. Most of them will tell you that they came out ahead. And the other tours will be better off too for the added interest KT brought to the game.

I think there are more important things to worry about in this world then to worry that KT is trying to scam a few pool players. Besides, he is making stars out of them. Giving them some hope and a future. That is a lot more than any tour has done for them. And he has done that in 7 months. Just think what he can accomplish if you give him the two years.

Well, I have to get back to my drink. It is half full.

Jake

dg-in-centralpa
02-15-2006, 06:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DSAPOLIS:</font><hr>
<font color="blue"> That is blind loyalty, not confidence. Big difference. </font color>


Kind of reminds me of Don King. You want to box, it's his way or the highway.

DG

.



The Mosconi Cup is rescheduled and will not be affected.

<font color="blue">It must make Kevin feel everso powerful to have everybody reacting to his decisonmaking. </font color>

Does anyone really care about the other four tournaments? But I am sure they will all be held.

<font color="blue"> Yes. People do care.

For those that have said I was right on target with my comments, please understand that I get my information from people that have much more knowledge about what is going on than I do. I have always contended that if KT truly cared about pool, that he would have assisted in financing the existing tours. What he has done is created his own tour with his own money on his own terms. Besides getting more money, the players have even less control over their destiny than they did in the past. This guy can close up shop tomorrow and nobody would be left with anything (except maybe Sigel and Reyes) - Trudeau has failed to recognize that the WPA exists, he has failed to recognize that the WCBS exists. For those that do not know, a lot of work has been done trying to position ourselves as a recognized sport by the IOC. To do so, we must meet certain criteria. We have already been showcased at the World Games. Anyone that says that we have not made progress over the past 15 years does not know what they are talking about.

Here is a breakdown of how the WCBA operates - and attached is a link to their website which outlines their history.

http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/images/Organigramm_WCBS.jpg

http://www.billiard-wcbs.org/

The WCBS recognizes billiards as a sport consisting of 3 separate disciplines, Billiards, Pool, &amp; Snooker. This organization has been in place for years and fighting every step of the way to advance our sport, yet Trudeau claims it doesnt exist. What does not exist is cohesion within our industry in North America. The IPT won't help that, it will just make the wounds deeper between pro pool and the billiards industry. The game of pool is extremely popular in Asia and Europe yet it suffers at the hands of greed by putting faith in people such as Don Mackey and Kevin Trudeau. Both mean well, but their interests come before the inetersts of the game. That will kill us every single time. Its more than just about money. People don't get along. They don't. Most of you have heard about it, I've seen it. Money won't solve those issues, it will just complicate them.
</font color>
<hr /></blockquote>

DSAPOLIS
02-15-2006, 08:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> I suppose you want us to play soccer and cricket or whatever that game is instead of football and baseball.

I didn't start following pool until 1998 so Mackey is before my time but I doubt comparing Trudeau to Mackey is an honest comparison. In fact it is ridiculous.

<font color="blue">A lot of people don't think its ridiculous, Jake. What a lot of people think is ridiculous is that people are falling for this.

In the mid-1990's I was just as vocal about the deals Mackey was making with RJ Reynolds. Who else remember Larry Kiger and Wayne Robertson? I do. They were going to sell tobacco products by using professional pool. They thought it was a no brainer and everybdy was celebrating about big pay days. Well they never happened. Within 4 years we were left with absolutely nothing. This seems all too familiar for some of us, Jake.
</font color>

I know a guy who played in the last qualifier too. Will he do it again? Probably not. But not because he thinks it is too expensive, he just is not good enough of a player.

<font color="blue">I was talking about Danny Harriman. </font color>

Tell me what any pool player has lost if KT decides to call it quits after the 1st tournament. Most of them will tell you that they came out ahead. And the other tours will be better off too for the added interest KT brought to the game.

<font color="blue">They will have lost their trust - again. </font color>

I think there are more important things to worry about in this world then to worry that KT is trying to scam a few pool players. Besides, he is making stars out of them. Giving them some hope and a future. That is a lot more than any tour has done for them. And he has done that in 7 months. Just think what he can accomplish if you give him the two years.

<font color="blue"> Who is a star? The only pubicity pool has received is bad publicity due to our association with this guy. I challenge you to show proof that we have hit the mainstream with this. We'll soon have a starring role on CourTV, and it won't be pretty. </font color>

Well, I have to get back to my drink. It is half full.
<font color="blue">I bet its haf full with crocodile protein peptide, isn't it?

Jake, if you get a chance to make it out to Rax in Titusville this weekend, I'll be there for the Ladie's Spirit Tour event (no, Bonnie won't let me play). Stop by and I'll buy you a beer. That peptide's got you going silly my friend.
</font color>

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
02-16-2006, 06:19 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That's $2,000 if you never win a game. Unheard of in the history of pool. A professional pool player getting paid just for showing up. How outrageous is that.

I think its very outrageous. I long for the days when you actually had to put some balls in the pockets to get the cash.
<hr /></blockquote> I long for the days when you actually had to put some balls in the pockets to get the cash.
<hr /></blockquote> LOL, I find this reply funny David. Are you on the IPT? There is no reason for you "long" for anything, you along with the rest of us still have to put some balls in the pockets to get the cash. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I do agree though, if you cannot win a match you do not deserve to get paid. None of the guys on the IPT right now deserve anything, they did not earn their way there (except for those winning the qualifiers and all they deserve is the chance to play in the next IPT tournament).

Dave is right, the only reason the players are staying quiet is because they are loyal to the money. I can respect that to a point until it gets contradictory. At that point, you see where their true loyalty lies. Prior to the IPT the US Open was regarded as THE most prestigious event in all the land. When the IPT schedule came out, all the internet pool players jumped on their keyboards and began blasting their fingers in tirades against the IPT for trying to put Barry out of business. The big problem here is that while they were busy crying all over the internet changing sides and jumping off the IPT bandwagon, they forgot to notice how quiet the players were. Sure we have Colin on AzB trying to mediate, but he really is not considered one of the "players" of the IPT, he just got a lucky shot on the first go-around. Where are the cries from the "real" players? Nothing. So, while the US Open was a great event, it is absolutely clear that it was not as prestigious as the fans thought, OR, the players are as shallow as we all thought in the beginning, they are running for the money (leaving behind what they also felt was prestige).

KT is proving to be a bulldozer of sorts in the pool world right now, and I have yet to see any of the players stand up and defend pool's great tournaments. Seems like the prestige from these events is merely in the mind of the fans.

eg8r

eg8r
02-16-2006, 06:35 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have always contended that if KT truly cared about pool, that he would have assisted in financing the existing tours. <hr /></blockquote> Playing the devil's advocate, what if KT truly cared enough that he tried to run over all the existing tours because he felt they were the reason pool has been held back? C'mon, you guys are playing MMQB and missing the most important part, the players of the IPT are the quietest group.

One other thing I have heard little about, what about the manufacturers of the products KT is selling? Diamond pool tables, Master's chalk (I believe this is the company but not postive), etc. These are big names in pool and they have joined forces. You don't hear them crying out against what is happening. Why is that (we all know but the question is to prove a point)? The one group we have heard from is BCn (no need to bring up the other pool tours and associations again). Well that is no surprise, they have been trying to position themselves as the greatest production offering to the pool world and KT slammed the door shut on them. Kind of explains why they will speak out. Heck I don't even think Dragon Promotions uses BCn.

Anyways, enough of the rant, those who were on the bandwagon in the beginning are now getting their toes stepped on a little bit and they are having second thoughts and jumping off the bandwagon as quick as possible. I really don't think KT cares about that type of loyalty anyways. As for me, I will continue to not show favor to anything and just see how it turns out. The one with the money "usually" wins in the beginning but that does not mean it will be here forever.

eg8r

eg8r
02-16-2006, 06:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people don't think its ridiculous, Jake. What a lot of people think is ridiculous is that people are falling for this.

In the mid-1990's I was just as vocal about the deals Mackey was making with RJ Reynolds. <hr /></blockquote> Well, you are ignoring the biggest difference, KT is using his own money.

KT is not dependant on someone else's money. Sure he would like to get the sponsorship money high enough that it does not cost him anything, but he is perfectly willing to drop the cash to get it going in the beginning.

It is also not like you have to worry about him running off with the money either, like the last guy, because all the money is his to begin with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

9 Ball Girl
02-16-2006, 06:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote US Open Press Release:</font><hr>In the aftermath of the International Pool Tour’s scheduling debacle that left billiard promoters worldwide scrambling for new dates to host their previously scheduled tournaments,<hr /></blockquote>

I'm for the IPT, but I don't get this. It's not like other major tournaments didn't have their dates picked out. I mean, the following year's US Open dates are always announced on the last day of the current US Open. KT couldn't have worked his schedule around? And to have known his dates and be tight-lipped about it, IMO, is kind of bullyish if you ask me. Just my 2 cent.

hondo
02-16-2006, 07:06 AM
I feel like I contributed to the tour. I paid
good money for his book which says stuff like
I would love to tell you the cure but the DEA
would sue me. Now if you buy my video I can
reveal a little more.
What does that tell you?


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote jjinfla:</font><hr> Have a little faith everyone. KT has put together quite a team and so far it is all at his expense and all the money is going to the players. And still everyone trashes him. If he does pull out the players will have you to thank.

The players on the IPT Tour all seem to have confidence in him and are willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

And what an idiotic statement for the players not to show up. Do you all realize how much money is at stake? $350,000 for first place. $30,000 for 18, $2,000 for last place. That's $2,000 if you never win a game. Unheard of in the history of pool. A professional pool player getting paid just for showing up. How outrageous is that.

And look at all the players who are paying $2000 just to qualify and be on the tour. How many naysayers said it was too much money and no one would show up? Looks like KT was proven right again.

The US Open has been rescheduled and will be held at the end of September. And didn't I hear people complaining when Barry had it scheduled at the beginning of Sept anyway.

The Mosconi Cup is rescheduled and will not be affected.

Does anyone really care about the other four tournaments? But I am sure they will all be held.

Jake <hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
02-16-2006, 09:43 AM
Ed, I might actually agree with you on this one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

To me it sounds great, [the TV, the money ]but..................can it be true?
A few things bother me.
The money just keeps going up and up which sounds great but we havent even had a proper tournament yet! It seems every time there is a murmour of doubt on AZ, the money goes up. A few months ago you had to win a match to get paid- next year you will earn a guarnteed $100,000 even if you dont make a ball!
They have a tournament scheduled that is offering $500,000 first prize!
The IPT members and the whole pool world, are already over the moon with a first prize of $200,000 which is a $100,000 more than they can earn in any other tournament. Another IPT tourny pays $350,000 FP, which is a massive payout in pool, anywhere!
Why offer more than you have to? Why the 1/2 mil?

Qtec

Eric.
02-16-2006, 10:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
A lot of people don't think its ridiculous, Jake. What a lot of people think is ridiculous is that people are falling for this.

In the mid-1990's I was just as vocal about the deals Mackey was making with RJ Reynolds. <hr /></blockquote> Well, you are ignoring the biggest difference, KT is using his own money.

KT is not dependant on someone else's money. Sure he would like to get the sponsorship money high enough that it does not cost him anything, but he is perfectly willing to drop the cash to get it going in the beginning.

It is also not like you have to worry about him running off with the money either, like the last guy, because all the money is his to begin with. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

I think Blackjack has some very real concerns. Personally, I'm optomistic but somewhat skeptical about the IPT.

I may be wrong, but it seems like the IPT is just another way of marketing KT's website, which sells his book. Hell, the IPT money is probably the same marketing money KT would have spent on infomercials.

I would be concerned about the future of the IPT once KT's book sales slow down. Unless KT has a newer product to pitch, he may pull up after the book sales slow.


Eric

reggie182
02-16-2006, 10:43 AM
Some of the comments I've read on this thread are just unbelievable.

For years, those pool tournaments held in the highest regard have paid top prizes sufficient enough for the winner to buy that double-wide he's had his heart set on. Now, non-pathetic prize money is being offered by the IPT, and some in the pool community look at it as nothing more than a crisis to the already established and sanctified tournaments. I hope some of you realize that many of these professional players who have devoted their time and energies to being the best they can at our sport actually have families to support, and personal dreams to fulfill. Just as the best in other sports receive compensation for their talents and hard work, so should those in pool. If these other tournaments feel threatened by the IPT's offer of more prize money, then they need to work on ways to raise the prize funds in their own tournaments, otherwise there doesn't really seem to be much of a justification for their continued existance. So what if they fold? Fortunately, the IPT may eventually have the effect of bigger purses in the established tournaments through its promotion of the game, and the simple principle of competition making the pie better. The IPT may be the best chance yet for the stars of the game to make the income they deserve.

Hopefully a lack of foresight among some doesn't prevent this from happening.

jjinfla
02-16-2006, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The money just keeps going up and up which sounds great but we havent even had a proper tournament yet! It seems every time there is a murmour of doubt on AZ, the money goes up. A few months ago you had to win a match to get paid- next year you will earn a guarnteed $100,000 even if you dont make a ball!
They have a tournament scheduled that is offering $500,000 first prize!
The IPT members and the whole pool world, are already over the moon with a first prize of $200,000 which is a $100,000 more than they can earn in any other tournament. Another IPT tourny pays $350,000 FP, which is a massive payout in pool, anywhere!
Why offer more than you have to? Why the 1/2 mil?

Qtec <hr /></blockquote>


I just don't understand this. You say the money paid to the players just keeps going up and up. And that is somehow bad? Why?

I think the players have committed themselves to just enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts.

I heard that the KOH cost KT 4 million to produce. $1.1 Million paid to the players. Who knows how much the qualifiers and other tournaments will cost him.

So I sure hope he sells books and anything else so that he stays happy and keeps supporting pool.

Qualifier starts tomorrow. I wonder what kind of special incentive he will offer the players. Another $5K for a six pack?

Blackjack, can't make Titusville. I will be in Longwood trying to win a few games in the Fury Kingsbay Amateur tournament if I don't get lost trying to get there like I did trying to get to Strokers.

Jake

Rich R.
02-16-2006, 11:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> If these other tournaments feel threatened by the IPT's offer of more prize money, then they need to work on ways to raise the prize funds in their own tournaments, otherwise there doesn't really seem to be much of a justification for their continued existance.<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">You make it sound so easy. The promoters of these other tournaments don't have the golden nest egg that KT has. They have fought hard, for many years, to produce good quality tournaments with as much prize money as they could raise.

Since you think it is easy, let's do a little experiment.
You can organize a tournament, in your local area. Now, raise $10K to add to the prize pool. That is small potatoes, compared to the IPT, so you should be able to do it easily. Let us all know, when you get this done. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> So what if they fold? <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">If they fold, the world of pool will be at a great loss.
Also, when KT's 2 year commitment ends, and he decides his little experiment is not worth his time and money, we will have no major pool tournaments left. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr>Fortunately, the IPT may eventually have the effect of bigger purses in the established tournaments through its promotion of the game, and the simple principle of competition making the pie better. The IPT may be the best chance yet for the stars of the game to make the income they deserve.<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">Believe me, most of us hope you are right, in this respect.

We all want better things for the game of pool. However, some of use don't want it, at the risk of destroying all the people who have struggled and done their best to promote the game, for many years.</font color>

reggie182
02-16-2006, 12:38 PM
To Rich R.

I understand that it is not easy to fund a pool tournament that pays respectable prize money. However, I also understand that it is not impossible either.

Yes there have been promoters who have worked for a long time at producing the best tournaments they can, but even the most earnest and tireless efforts eventually have to be subject to some scrutiny, and even a little criticism.

The traditional tournaments as they have existed since the late eighties "Color of Money" pool renaissance died down have paid the top players in the world absolutely pathetic prize money. Players such as Mike Sigel retired not because their skills had dimished, but because they simply could not make a living at our sport. A sport that is played by arguably by more people in the U.S. than any other. We can do better.

I am not saying this simply to cast aspersions on the perennial promoters of pool tournaments. They love the game and surely don't want the stars of the game to languish in perpetual financial desperation. But there comes a time when certain traditions and practices that have consistently failed to produce desirable results have to be reexamined and sometimes scrapped. Many a business in this country has expired because of the inability to compete, despite the fact that it's proprietor might be a fine person.

Our priorities in the "pool community" ought to be considered here. Is it more important for us to preserve the traditional pool tournies and promoters whatever the cost, or should our priority be to do what is best for the promotion of the game and for the benefit of its best players.


I hope you would want the latter.

jtlabs
02-16-2006, 07:10 PM
I thought this was a valid point from a poster at AZ.

[ QUOTE ]

Originally Posted by CaptiveBred
There is alot more going on here than the purity of pocket billiards. Why is that so hard to comprehend?

For somebody who loves to compete, you don't seem to realize there is competition on other levels in the game.

Why should'nt the IPT try to dominate? They are competing entities...

When I ran a business, I spent a great deal of time figuiring out how to take business from my competitors. This is, not only, considered a ethical, it is integral to survival.

Competition is good for consumers. We are the consumers. This is good for us. Any economics course will teach you that right off the bat.

Competition is a MUST in capitolism. Do you not live in this world? I do and so do all my neighbors. If not for this evil, the world you know wuld not exsist...

I understand you are passionate about pool but that does not warrant the rest of the world changing its positions to suit yours. This is not a worl of "One"
<hr /></blockquote>
[ QUOTE ]

You've got a point about competion and how it leads to better things for consumers.

Right now, the other events are not strong enough to challenge the IPT. But look a year or two down the road and imagine the IPT has the TV ratings and business success that it is aiming for.

All of a sudden there would be some professional promotion / production companies jumping in on the bandwagon. Just as we've seen with poker. A couple of their obvios choices of properties to pick up or cooperate with would be the pre-existing events such as the US Open, WPC etc. Throw a few hundred grand into these events and all of a sudden the IPT may have some real competition, not just for the players, but for the content buyers and advertisers.

I expect many experienced business professional would advise the IPT not to feed the competition.

With the IPT spending millions on promoting the game and the star players, trying to sidestep the other event would be equivalent to giving them a huge free bonus.

I can tell you that here in China, 3 years ago when I spoke to marketing managers about sponsoring snooker or pool, they thought I was mad. Snooker and pool aren't popular they would say.

Now with Ding Jun Hui and Pan Xiao Ting regularly in the news they have a much different perspective. The same could be true for all level of pool promoters in the US in coming years. There could be a whole new bunch of sponsors around willing to get into pool at some level, from charity matches to local events and tours to televised matches.

So maybe the IPT is progressing faster that was originally expected and precautions are being taken to best protect the investment at an early stage.

Just my wild speculations
<hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
02-17-2006, 09:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I just don't understand this. You say the money paid to the players just keeps going up and up. And that is somehow bad? Why? <hr /></blockquote> He never said it was bad, that is probably why you don't understand it. He is just asking a question as to why they continue to increase.

eg8r

eg8r
02-17-2006, 09:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
You make it sound so easy. The promoters of these other tournaments don't have the golden nest egg that KT has. They have fought hard, for many years, to produce good quality tournaments with as much prize money as they could raise. <hr /></blockquote> You are right, they don't have the money KT has, so what? They are in business. I think if the players cared as much as the fans, and revered these tournaments as much as the fans do, then they will skip the IPT tournament if it conflicts. Let's see what is more important to them? I will tell you, Barry was not willing to take the risk to see where the loyalty lies, and I bet the rest will scramble in the same manner. The players do not care about the same things as the fans.

eg8r

eg8r
02-17-2006, 09:42 AM
[ QUOTE ]
KT couldn't have worked his schedule around? And to have known his dates and be tight-lipped about it, IMO, is kind of bullyish if you ask me. Just my 2 cent.
<hr /></blockquote> Softies are not worth a billion dollars. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

MrLucky
02-17-2006, 10:04 AM
<font color="red"> For what its worth......</font color>
Kevin Trudeau Banned from Infomercials

Trudeau Settles Claims in Connection with Coral Calcium Supreme and Biotape

A Federal Trade Commission settlement with Kevin Trudeau – a prolific marketer who has either appeared in or produced hundreds of infomercials – broadly bans him from appearing in, producing, or disseminating future infomercials that advertise any type of product, service, or program to the public, except for truthful infomercials for informational publications. In addition, Trudeau cannot make disease or health benefits claims for any type of product, service, or program in any advertising, including print, radio, Internet, television, and direct mail solicitations, regardless of the format and duration. Trudeau agreed to these prohibitions and to pay the FTC $2 million to settle charges that he falsely claimed that a coral calcium product can cure cancer and other serious diseases and that a purported analgesic called Biotape can permanently cure or relieve severe pain.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Rich R.
02-17-2006, 10:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> To Rich R.

I understand that it is not easy to fund a pool tournament that pays respectable prize money. However, I also understand that it is not impossible either.<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red">No, it is not impossible, and that is why tournaments such as the U.S. Open have been around for 30 years. However, it is far from easy and that is why a lot of other tournaments no longer exist. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr>Yes there have been promoters who have worked for a long time at producing the best tournaments they can, but even the most earnest and tireless efforts eventually have to be subject to some scrutiny, and even a little criticism.<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">Most of these promoters are constantly scrutinized and criticized, and it is mostly done by people who have never been involved in running a tournament. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr>The traditional tournaments as they have existed since the late eighties "Color of Money" pool renaissance died down have paid the top players in the world absolutely pathetic prize money. Players such as Mike Sigel retired not because their skills had dimished, but because they simply could not make a living at our sport. A sport that is played by arguably by more people in the U.S. than any other. We can do better.<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">Yes the prize money is poor and it is difficult for a player to make a living. Almost any of the promoters would agree with you on that point and most of them would absolutely love to have more prize money for their tournaments. If you could come up with a good way to obtain that money, I'm sure any of them would be more than happy to listen to you.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr>I am not saying this simply to cast aspersions on the perennial promoters of pool tournaments. They love the game and surely don't want the stars of the game to languish in perpetual financial desperation. But there comes a time when certain traditions and practices that have consistently failed to produce desirable results have to be reexamined and sometimes scrapped. Many a business in this country has expired because of the inability to compete, despite the fact that it's proprietor might be a fine person.

Our priorities in the "pool community" ought to be considered here. Is it more important for us to preserve the traditional pool tournies and promoters whatever the cost, or should our priority be to do what is best for the promotion of the game and for the benefit of its best players.


I hope you would want the latter. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">The long time promoters of pool tournaments have done their best to provide good tournaments for the players and the fans. I wouldn't say they have failed. The ones who have failed have long since given up on promoting pool tournaments.

Are the payouts at a level that everyone wants them to be? No, but they did have good tournaments and provided some income to the players.

You ask if it is important to preserve the traditional pool tournies and promoters, whatever the cost, and in this case, I have to say YES. They have helped to support the pool community, the best that they could, for a long time and they have earned our support.

Please keep in mind, Kevin T. and the IPT have not really proven that they can promote pool tournaments any better than the traditional promoters. Kevin just happens to be an extremely wealthy man and he is taking money out of his pocket to produce these tournaments. I'm sure he expects a return on that investment eventually, but we don't know that he will get one. With his help, the IPT has not had to go out looking for sponsors to put up the prize money and production costs. That is also coming out of Kevin's pocket. I don't want to say this all is a bad thing, because they are making a lot of money available to pool players, however, they are not producing tournaments in the traditional sense. Are we suppose to abandon the old promoters, just because they don't happen to be billionaires, like Kevin? I think not. There is also no guarantee that Kevin will be around, after 2007, if he doesn't get a return on his investment.

Don't get me wrong. I hope the IPT is a smashing success and Kevin ends up with a good return on his investment. This could only benefit other promoters, in the long run. However, I don't believe we should abandon the old promoters and put them out of business either. There is room for all of the promoters and tournaments and I only wish they can all get together and work things out. </font color>

reggie182
02-17-2006, 12:27 PM
Rich:

This is likely to be my last post on the subject.

I thought I made it clear in my last post what a marvelous group of people pool tournament promoters are. However, I will never agree with the notion that they are somehow exempt from the expectations that exist in a meritocracy, which is what we have in the U.S. If the finest, most hard working, earnest person I know gives me employment (which is analogous to what tournament promoters in some way give to pool players) and that person pays me $ 7.50 an hour, but someone else offers me ten times that compensation, why am I to be faulted for abandoning that job? Who wouldn't change jobs in that situation?

Another thing you may have misunderstood is my sentiment toward the older tournaments. If I had my druthers they would survive and prosper. The problem is that the possibility of schedule conflicts with the IPT will always be present. If the IPT is going to offer more money to the players, and more exposure to the game, then no pool player is to be faulted for bolting to the IPT. Business is business. The strongest survive in our economic system, and pool is no exception.

9 Ball Girl
02-17-2006, 01:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Softies are not worth a billion dollars. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif
<hr /></blockquote>Well then, it's like someone on AZB said, "There's a new Sheriff in town." /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Rich R.
02-17-2006, 08:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> Rich:

This is likely to be my last post on the subject.

I thought I made it clear in my last post what a marvelous group of people pool tournament promoters are. However, I will never agree with the notion that they are somehow exempt from the expectations that exist in a meritocracy, which is what we have in the U.S. If the finest, most hard working, earnest person I know gives me employment (which is analogous to what tournament promoters in some way give to pool players) and that person pays me $ 7.50 an hour, but someone else offers me ten times that compensation, why am I to be faulted for abandoning that job? Who wouldn't change jobs in that situation?

Another thing you may have misunderstood is my sentiment toward the older tournaments. If I had my druthers they would survive and prosper. The problem is that the possibility of schedule conflicts with the IPT will always be present. If the IPT is going to offer more money to the players, and more exposure to the game, then no pool player is to be faulted for bolting to the IPT. Business is business. The strongest survive in our economic system, and pool is no exception. <hr /></blockquote>
Reggie, I do appreciate your thoughts, but you seem to be missing a couple of my points.

First of all, you seem to want the players to leave the old tournaments, because the new IPT tournaments are paying more money.

I say, why not let the players play in all of the tournaments.

Your analogy of someone abandoning $7.50 per hour job for a job paying ten times that much is flawed. There are many people who work a regular high paying job and they also work a lower paying part-time job. In my opinion, players should not have to choose tournaments, they should be able to play in all tournaments. In 2006, there are only 6, high paying, IPT tournaments. That leaves approximately 46 other weeks in the year. There is plenty of time for them to play in the other, lower paying, tournaments.

The other point you seem to be missing is that I do not fault the players for wanting to play in the higher paying tournaments. I only ask that the promoters act in a responsible and cooperative manner and avoid conflicts in scheduling. This will allow the players a chance to play for even more money.

Why should the players be forced to choose and why should any of the promoters be forced out of business. With a little cooperation and planning, everyone can benefit. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

reggie182
02-18-2006, 12:51 AM
Almost certainly to possibly be the likely last post I will make on this subject today. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

OK, I'll take a deep breath and try to remember how this dialogue got started, and try to add something new. Maybe constructive, maybe not.

Without question the ideal scenario for scheduling would be for the IPT and various other promoters to be able to coordinate their tournament dates so that no conflicts would ever occur, but I'm afraid that this may not be plausible, or a reasonable expection.

IPT tournaments and qualifiers are taking place on multiple dates and locations. For KT to be able to find ideal and available venues for these events (some of them enormous by pool standards), book them in advance, hire anybody and everybody for every conceivable task, AND not interfere with the smaller tournaments is not a logistical piece of cake. What if John Doe has a seven-ball shootout scheduled six months down the road, and this is the only available date range that KT can book the best venue he can in LV, Reno, or elswhere? Should he risk the success of the venture by deferring to a much smaller event? Just how much do you expect KT to compromise his plans for the IPT to show consideration to the other promoters?

I do agree that KT should make some effort to accomodate the established tournies. He shouldn't be incommunicato with the promoters. If it is his goal to make the IPT the only game in town, then shame on him. But, there really isn't any evidence that is what he wants to do. As we all know, KT is a billionaire. It is highly unlikely that he woke up one morning and thought the best way to pad his bank account would be to invest millions of dollars in a series of eight ball tournaments. It is just as unlikely that he is doing this for the sadistic pleasure of seeing the other promoters driven out of business. If not for these two reasons, then it must be a desire for the game to achieve the exposure and stature it deserves.

I guess the real question here is who should defer more to whom. To me this question is answered by looking at where the most promise lies. Is it in the established tournaments? Well, as I've indicated in previous posts, these events are run by people who love the game, and have many great qualities. The problem is that there is not much to indicate that these events have any real potential to take the game to the next level, by attracting more mainstream interest. They are the domain of hardcore fans like you and I. However, even among pool devotees, the formats and standards of these tournaments can be troublesome. Here are some of my personal pet peeves about what I have seen in tournaments over the past few years:

1. Alternating breaks: I absolutely hate this. One of the most thrilling aspects of watching the great ones play is seeing them string racks together, wondering when, or if, they will miss before victory. Their opponent wonders the same thing too, and the emotions he goes through in the chair provide crucial drama to the match. Aside from this, there is the simple issue of fairness. If a great player negotiates a tough run out, he damn well deserves to keep shooting. That is the custom among novice players, and it is usually the custom among experienced money players.

2. Simonis cloth: Yes, I know they sponsor umpteen tournaments, but the simple fact of the matter is that this is another equalizer that blurs the differences in the skill levels of the players. A great draw stroke on an old style nap felt is a great draw stroke. On simonis, pulling a ball back four feet can be done by a ham 'n egger. I have run across few good players who didn't hate this stuff.

3.Miscelleous: A number of things. Oddly colored or designed balls that make it next to impossible to follow a match on television. An arcade like atmosphere of all sorts of other things going on at a tournament that turn the pool match into a sideshow. Large pockets. Argh, large pockets! Another damn equalizer!

4. Prize money: See past three posts.

KT has apparently talked to the professionals (particularly Mike Sigel) about their likes and dislikes
in the established tournaments, and the result is that none of those bothersome things I just mentioned are a part of the IPT format.

Back to finishing my point about who should defer to whom. Not surprisingly I think the majority of consideration to the IPT. It's not a sure thing, and it may last only two years. But it's the best shot I've seen in years of our sport getting the recognition it has long deserved.

I appreciate your comments, and good shooting.

Rich R.
02-18-2006, 06:37 AM
<font color="red"> Reggie, the one good thing, in all of this, is that there are a lot people, like you and I, that care enough about the future of pool, to discuss these issues on an open forum. Hopefully, one of the real movers and shakers will read all of our views and come to a viable compromise.

I will address a couple of your latest points and then I'm done with this thread.</font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> Without question the ideal scenario for scheduling would be for the IPT and various other promoters to be able to coordinate their tournament dates so that no conflicts would ever occur, but I'm afraid that this may not be plausible, or a reasonable expection. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">In my last post, I indicated that I would only expect the major tournaments to coordinate efforts to avoid conflicts. It would be impossible for all conflicts to be avoided. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> IPT tournaments and qualifiers are taking place on multiple dates and locations. For KT to be able to find ideal and available venues for these events (some of them enormous by pool standards), book them in advance, hire anybody and everybody for every conceivable task, AND not interfere with the smaller tournaments is not a logistical piece of cake. What if John Doe has a seven-ball shootout scheduled six months down the road, and this is the only available date range that KT can book the best venue he can in LV, Reno, or elswhere? Should he risk the success of the venture by deferring to a much smaller event? Just how much do you expect KT to compromise his plans for the IPT to show consideration to the other promoters?<hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">Again, I'm not concerned about accomodating the smaller tournament.
As far as finding appropriate facilities goes, maybe they should look in other cities, rather than concentrating on Vegas, Reno and IPT's home town. I know there are several facilities in my general area that could easily accomodate the needs of the IPT. I'm sure there are many more across the country and around the world.
One thing I am not sure of is how important it is to KT to have casinos available where he is holding an IPT event. This issue would eliminate the facilities in my area. </font color>

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> I do agree that KT should make some effort to accomodate the established tournies. He shouldn't be incommunicato with the promoters. If it is his goal to make the IPT the only game in town, then shame on him. But, there really isn't any evidence that is what he wants to do. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red">I'm glad we agree that the IPT should attempt to accomodate, or coordinate efforts, with the other major tournaments.
I'm sorry to say, the jury is still out, concerning what KT wants to do with the IPT. </font color>


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote reggie182:</font><hr> I guess the real question here is who should defer more to whom. <hr /></blockquote>
<font color="red"> I don't think any of the majors should have to defer to another one. I would like to think they could just coordinate their efforts and put together a workable schedule where they all could thrive. After all, there are 52 weeks in the year. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>


<font color="red">Reggie, I hope you don't mind, but I'm not going to address your pet peaves. The issues of format, equipment, etc. is fodder for at least a dozen more threads. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Hopefully, someday, we will get to discuss all of these issues, while watching one of these great tournaments.

I'm done with this thread. Take the last word, if you care to.

Shoot well. </font color>

jtlabs
02-18-2006, 12:13 PM
I feel that no matter what KT does the US Open will always find a way to survive. My hunch is that the US Open, from a business stand point, wants the IPT to succeed on a grand scale. When this happens, the US Open will be riding the wave of success. If these established tournaments have to put up with rescheduling their events, they will do so because they know what is at the end of the rainbow(although they would prefer not to reschedule).

In two years we will know weather the IPT is what KT hoped for. I imagine if IPT fails, everything will go along as it is going today. I truly believe their is nothing the IPT can do to stop these tournaments from surviving in just a 2 year period. Their is only one way to go from here, and that is up.

Qtec
02-19-2006, 12:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>
I just don't understand this. You say the money paid to the players just keeps going up and up. And that is somehow bad? Why? <hr /></blockquote> He never said it was bad, that is probably why you don't understand it. He is just asking a question as to why they continue to increase.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

You beat me to it Ed /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif and you are exactly correct. Why is KT paying a lot more money than he has to?

I can understand the optimisim about the IPT from the 'blinded by the light' diehard supporters, but all they can see is the money and the money just keeps going up and up needlessly. There is no competition.
The present Q in Hard Times drew 72 entrants- thats $144,000 going to the IPT. I guess the 3 Qs so far have made a total of $250,000. The open tourneys will have 50 open spots [=25 Q tourneys]........you get my drift.
Its pretty obvious that the original IPT schedule was never going to happen. There was never any time to arrange and play quallifying tournaments! Now there is.
I ask you, a six month delay because the ratings were SO good???????????

How much has KT actually spent uptill now?

Q.......

eg8r
02-20-2006, 06:31 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Reggie, I do appreciate your thoughts, but you seem to be missing a couple of my points.

First of all, you seem to want the players to leave the old tournaments, because the new IPT tournaments are paying more money. <hr /></blockquote> He might be missing your point because you are so blatantly not catching on to what he is saying. He is not saying he wants the players to leave the older tournaments. My goodness he even said he wanted the old tournaments to prosper. What he is saying is that, he wants the players to not be chastised for doing what is best for them.

Barry has been around a very long long time and that is not because he just packs up and hides when the goings get tough, or a new guy is trying to run the show. We all know he did the right thing and rescheduled. I don't think he is nearly as blinded about the greatness of his tournament as are some of the fans. He knew he could not compete with KT and the players cared more about the money than the prestige of Barry's event. So, Barry sucked it up and rescheduled. Everyone wins (except those who are unable to change whatever travel arrangements have already been set up).

eg8r

hondo
02-21-2006, 06:12 AM
It's about time!!!


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote MrLucky:</font><hr> <font color="red"> For what its worth......</font color>
Kevin Trudeau Banned from Infomercials

Trudeau Settles Claims in Connection with Coral Calcium Supreme and Biotape

A Federal Trade Commission settlement with Kevin Trudeau &amp;#8211; a prolific marketer who has either appeared in or produced hundreds of infomercials &amp;#8211; broadly bans him from appearing in, producing, or disseminating future infomercials that advertise any type of product, service, or program to the public, except for truthful infomercials for informational publications. In addition, Trudeau cannot make disease or health benefits claims for any type of product, service, or program in any advertising, including print, radio, Internet, television, and direct mail solicitations, regardless of the format and duration. Trudeau agreed to these prohibitions and to pay the FTC $2 million to settle charges that he falsely claimed that a coral calcium product can cure cancer and other serious diseases and that a purported analgesic called Biotape can permanently cure or relieve severe pain.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

SPetty
02-21-2006, 11:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> It's about time!!!<hr /></blockquote>This is old news - this ban occurred in 2004.

hondo
02-21-2006, 12:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> It's about time!!!<hr /></blockquote>This is old news - this ban occurred in 2004. <hr /></blockquote>

Well, he's still on. I've seen his infos in recent
weeks.

eg8r
02-21-2006, 01:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Well, he's still on. I've seen his infos in recent
weeks. <hr /></blockquote> It does not mean he is violating the ban by being on an infomercial, he has just found a way to get around the rules of the ban.

eg8r