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nAz
02-13-2006, 05:20 PM
Anyone who has read my rants knows that my primary focus is on the christian cult. That is because they are the local de facto official religion and their actions have always had a more direct effect on our daily lives. I have generally avoided commentary critical of Islam fundamentalists because, frankly, they scare the [censored] out of me. I have for years maintained that they are a far greater menace to democracy and individual life and liberty than communism ever was.

Islam is running about 1000 years behind xianity on the curve; its most ardent followers are some of the scariest people on the planet. And the ardent, like the xian zealots of a thousand years ago, imagine they have a mandate from godhisownself to convert the entire planet to their brand of fantasy. And, as with the xians of a thousand years ago, dissent and criticism are highly lethal pursuits.

Islamic fundamentalists are significantly scarier than our own domestic brand. These are people who are completely immersed in Islam from birth and already live in lands high in poverty and desperation, and who believe that the only true freedom is the freedom to dedicate your life completely to Allah. They hold life in very low regard, especially yours; life is worthless and to be human is awful and temporary. Islamic terrorists are trained professionals who are institutionally taught to hate and kill as many Americans as possible while making no distinction between combatants and baby girls - much like xianity of a thousand years ago.

Now, these murderous thugs, empowered by fairy tales, and emboldened by our failure of awareness have committed the single worst act of murder in history. Their religion somehow convinced them that there was great honor in sneaking up and murdering thousands of unarmed and unsuspecting civilian men, women, and children. That is more than inhuman - it is anti-human, and is the most cruelly immoral act imaginable.

Some claim that that is not Islam. Excuse me, but Bullshit. The people who did this are not a separate and distinct religion. Rather they are one end of a continuum of people who practice Islam. Arguably, they are the most religious people on that continuum and, according to themselves, the purest practitioners. Well, sorry folks, it IS Islam as understood and practiced by its strongest adherents and you don't get to disown it when it gets embarrassing. I make little distinction between terrorists and those who enable them, excuse them, and fail to condemn them.

Those who take the position that we are not at war with Islam may turn out to be incredibly na´ve and may, as of yet, fail to grasp the implications of 1.3 billion people with a direct mandate from Allah. The most extreme elements of Islam are certainly at war with us and have stated as much loudly, arrogantly, in highly public ways, and on numerous occasions. They have a stated goal of destroying the United States. To them, it is ALL about religion; that is the context against which every aspect of existence and behavior is judged. That is what makes their differences with us not merely political, but a holy war.

Christianity has been tempered, and its own historical murderous capacity attenuated, by the last several hundred years of symbiosis with market economies (although we should not forget the clinic-bombing xian terrorists in this country). Religions only seem safe when limited by constitutional democracies. When religion is government, people die for the sin of thinking that human life is worth something.
TheTaliban and the splendor that is Islam


It is worth noting that in no country where Islam is a majority or where it is the official religion, is there a stable democracy or a world-class educational facility.

Islam, like all religions, is at its worst where there is ignorance and squalor and where there is no other anchor for hope. In most of southern Asia and in Africa, Islam has violently become the official religion. When and where that has happened, tolerance, as well as any pretense of democracy, has been utterly and cruelly abandoned. Where this has happened, as it did with xianity, human life has been devalued. This is, of course, contrary to common sense, common decency, and any sense of respect for the most inherent of human traits - the desire for peace, the quest for knowledge and understanding, and respect for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

As stated elsewhere, the privately held beliefs (read religious practices) of individuals are of no consequence to me. On September 11th, 2001, we were rudely reminded that religion can justify horrific mass murder of innocents. That is NOT "privately held" and IS of some consequence to us all.

Drop1
02-13-2006, 07:16 PM
Its intresting to note the country with the most Muslims,is India. I think we should be very carefull of all organizations where Faith,and the worship of a Diety are replacements for logic. We have no more reason to believe in a God,than the Cargo cults have in believing in air planes. All that has been created,that is beautiful,and non destrutive is the work of Man.

Gayle in MD
02-14-2006, 12:38 AM
Very true....faith and the worship of diety always require the suspension on ones logic.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
02-14-2006, 12:51 AM
Tap Tap Tap, good post Naz. While I agree with all of it, this very severe situation can only have a good reconciliation through communication and political dilomacy. Our present policies are only throwing gas on the fire. These people must be reasoned with somehow. We need to find a leader in their religion who can reform their thinging. Maybe we should convince them that we are all looking forward to dying just as they are, and they're sending us to our own glory when they kill us. I don't know what the answer is, but if we must live among religious organizations, both here and abroad, which profess to be acting in the name of their God, such as Bush and bin Laden, the only hope is through changing the way people think about organized religion. Kind of hard to do when you are dealing with people who devote themselves to blind faith.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
02-14-2006, 07:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Tap Tap Tap, good post Naz. <font color="blue"> I agree NaZ's post was excellent. </font color> While I agree with all of it, this very severe situation can only have a good reconciliation through communication and political dilomacy. <font color="blue">This is B/S. These people want to kill you based on their core belief. your negoiation, diplomacy and cowering will have no impact. They don't care about anything but their belief that youa re the devil. </font color> Our present policies are only throwing gas on the fire. These people must be reasoned with somehow. <font color="blue"> You can not reason with people who place the destruction of all Americans and non-believers as their only quest. </font color> We need to find a leader in their religion who can reform their thinging. <font color="blue"> We can't even find one who will stand up to their thinnking and atrocities.</font color> Maybe we should convince them that we are all looking forward to dying just as they are, and they're sending us to our own glory when they kill us. <font color="blue"> This is certainly smart policy, give them what they want, our deaths. </font color> I don't know what the answer is, but if we must live among religious organizations, both here and abroad, which profess to be acting in the name of their God, such as Bush and bin Laden, <font color="blue">Bush only professes to be guided by his God, in his daily decisions, surely even a person like you can see the difference in that and saying your God wants you to wipe out everyone who does not have your faith? GWB has never attacked Jews, Catholics, Hindus or even Muslims in general. You pepetuate this cloud of religous zeal you claim for Bush but admired in Carter, Clinton and other democrats. You are not foolish because you don't bleives, you are flloish because you pretend faith is good for democrats but, somehow , less worthy of republicans. </font color> the only hope is through changing the way people think about organized religion. <font color="blue"> Thatn is exactly what your party and the ACLU is trying to do. Not very effective for a coouple of elections now. Better luck next time. </font color> Kind of hard to do when you are dealing with people who devote themselves to blind faith. <font color="blue"> You equate people who's whole intent is to murder us with those who only what to enjoy their faith, not kill everyone who does not agree with them.

People like you are going to ask us to put our faith in your protecting us? No wonder you can't win an election. How would you have negoiated with Ted Bundy?</font color>

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

eg8r
02-14-2006, 07:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have generally avoided commentary critical of Islam fundamentalists because, frankly, they scare the [censored] out of me. <hr /></blockquote> They should. Can you believe the religion of peace is out rioting over a little well-earned humor.

eg8r

wolfdancer
02-14-2006, 07:46 AM
I don't have time to read the other posts....but are we talking about the Catholics?
I thought we gave that all up after the inquisitions?
Thought we was a kinder, more gentle religion now....

nAz
02-14-2006, 09:09 AM
funny thing Indias Muslims are nut so fired up as the rest of the world Muslims...

BTW Drop I am not a Atheist I consider myself an Agnostic, I just have not made up my mind about the "existence"... but when i see the major religions of this world it makes me wonder wouldn't man be better off without any of it?

Gayle in MD
02-14-2006, 09:32 AM
In an ideal world, people would be secure enough in their religious beliefs that they wouldn't have a need for agreement from everyone else, and they could practice their religious beliefs, without the soap box of dictatorship, politics, or violence. I am also agnostic, but the various interpertations of Man, are lightyears away from my own spiritual philosophy. Organized religion is wrought with revenge, misogyny, control, viloence, guilt, all things which destroy healthy self-esteem, a lack of which creates the killing of many.

Gayle in Md.

heater451
02-14-2006, 09:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr>Now, these murderous thugs, empowered by fairy tales, and emboldened by our failure of awareness have committed the single worst act of murder in history. Their religion somehow convinced them that there was great honor in sneaking up and murdering thousands of unarmed and unsuspecting civilian men, women, and children. That is more than inhuman - it is anti-human, and is the most cruelly immoral act imaginable.<hr /></blockquote>Sorry, to take a small part of your rant, but I would still posit Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and the Jewish Holocaust as far more heinous crimes of murder.

One could argue that these were acts of war, one primarily Offensive, and the others Defensive, but it doesn't change the fact that innocents died for the sake of the war-loving personalities in power at the time.

On the flipside, it could be said that human life and status really matter very little, and it's all about taking what you can, when you can. The World Wars, the Iraqui Conflict (I don't really consider it a 'W'ar), Vietnam, the Korean Police Action, any other battles, in South America, Africa, and the mid-East, all the way back to British, Spanish, Indian, and whatever empire can be called up. It's all very "Manifest Destiny". Splitting the argument between what's done for the sake of "right" (Defensive, maybe), and what's done for the sake of "might" is all pretty much the same---History being written by the winners and all.

The extremist Muslims call it "jihad", and extremist Americans (Christian, or not) call it "freedom". Again, it's imposing the will of one group on another. Whether one is better than the other is another debatable argument, but not one likely to have an easy answer, any time soon.


Pray for peace, prepare for war.



====================================

Gayle in MD
02-14-2006, 10:15 AM
That's all BS. I don't admire any person for subscribing to organized religion. I don't think such an act deserves merit of any kind. The reilgion which I find to be beautiful, and the closets to my own spiritual center is Buddhism.

"The basis of Semitic thinking is that spirit decends from God into man, thus becoming the God-man on Earth. The Aryan principle is that spirit within man ascends from man to God, thus unfolding spiritually until Soul becomes one with God. The first is represented by the avenging archangle, who decends from heaven with his sword and thunder; the other by the spiritually developed Soul who is able to take the elements from heaven to help the human race in its struggle to have life more abundantly.

Man bears these two principles within himsel;f. He thinks and acts under the influence of one or the other in turn, for they are not harmoniously blended within him. They contradictand fighte one another on the battle ground of our inner feelings, in our subtle thoughts, as well as in our social life and institutions. Hidden beneath our many social forms and mores are the currents which we may call spirituality and naturalism. They control our arguments and struggles.

We can look through all the past fronts of history to the age of Moses in Egypt, where thirty thousand years ago the Semitic principles seem to have been born. At about the same time the Aryan race entered India and established its own principles, becoming also the first known civilization. Both are said to be founders of religions. Yet both were well acquainted with the great initiation, which is the foundation for entering into the sipritual worlds.

We can trace the works of both down through the ages, seeing how the Aryan influence in the tradition of the Vedas became a higher civillization spreading out of India, eastward into Persia, Greece, and finally into the northern counrties of Europe. We can also note the route taken by the Semitic teachingsm which came through Moses into the Middle Eastern world. These orginal teachings of Judaism came finally to Jesus who, like Buddha in the East, then reformed the religious and traditional Semitic beliefs into a modern concept for every man. Finally the ourter form, which has become Christianity for the Western mind, has practically covered the globe.

Many religious scholares, including the adeptsm say that the two streams are irreconcilable, invincible, and will not be united. But they fail to look beyond the outer froms, of these two streams. Like most scholars-even mysticws who follow but one path-they seem to have a dualistic, and perhaps a fatalistic, attitude towards these two opposing streams of life. This has been proved by the conflict between the Occidental and Oriental worlds, from ancient Sumaria to modern Russia.

hese conflicting streams of thought appear so much in our lives that usually we fail to recognize them. Hence, nerspapers, books and discussions are filled with the seesaw between the two worlds. And, the individual must fight his own inner battles over these opposing streams of life. History has proved that the bloody conflicts between most nations can be boiled down to the opposing ideas of Semite and Aryan concepts."

I have studied all the religions. Eventually, I came to understand that what others call God, to me atleast, is nothing more than a few basic principles. Your spiritual center, God, heaven, whatever you want to call it, is synonymous with goodness, forgivness, peace in your heart and generousity. It is about giving as a gift to oneself, to others, reaching out to those who lose their way, not to dictate, but rather just to love them as they are and as they are not, adoring all living things, growing to a state of no ego gratification, and practicing a philosophy of no retaliation.

I do not see these things in other religions, neither here, or abroad.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
02-14-2006, 10:56 AM
Tap Tap Tap, Heater, good post. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Deeman3
02-14-2006, 03:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> That's all BS. I don't admire any person for subscribing to organized religion. <font color="blue"> Gayle, Unlike you, I do know of good organized religions, Buddists are very harmless and not at all politically self absorbed. Some Christian doctrins are outstanding, Christian Science, Modern Mormans, etc. Hindus in their pure from are wonderful.</font color> I don't think such an act deserves merit of any kind. The reilgion which I find to be beautiful, and the closets to my own spiritual center is Buddhism. <font color="blue"> I congratualte you on that. However, I think you diatribe below is simplistic and naive. Your description of that duality you are trying to describe is not the basis for most internal conflict and certainly not descriptive of matrix of human experience on either a phycologocal nor a soul based temperate belief system. If is was that simple, we could all just get together and wean out the past, and progress forward in peace. </font color>

"The basis of Semitic thinking is that spirit decends from God into man, thus becoming the God-man on Earth. The Aryan principle is that spirit within man ascends from man to God, thus unfolding spiritually until Soul becomes one with God. The first is represented by the avenging archangle, who decends from heaven with his sword and thunder; the other by the spiritually developed Soul who is able to take the elements from heaven to help the human race in its struggle to have life more abundantly. <font color="blue"> Again Grasshopper, most religious beliefs are steeped in historical sword play. However, in historical epochs, each, in turn, has had it's day slaying the other side. At present (the only time we exert any control over) the Muslims are the only group with worldwide swordplay as it's clarion trumpet for expansion or elimination of the others. Christianity, Judism and most others may even be evangelical but not in the "cut their heads off" variety. With only a few hundred years exception, The Muslim faith is the only one who has, for most of it's existance, endeavored to eliminate other beliefs competely. And, of course, are being effective with even thier "moderates" hiding behind a veil, saying nothing or any atrocities except those cartooned against them. </font color>

Man bears these two principles within himsel;f. He thinks and acts under the influence of one or the other in turn, for they are not harmoniously blended within him. They contradictand fighte one another on the battle ground of our inner feelings, in our subtle thoughts, as well as in our social life and institutions. Hidden beneath our many social forms and mores are the currents which we may call spirituality and naturalism. They control our arguments and struggles.

We can look through all the past fronts of history to the age of Moses in Egypt, where thirty thousand years ago the Semitic principles seem to have been born. At about the same time the Aryan race entered India and established its own principles, becoming also the first known civilization. Both are said to be founders of religions. Yet both were well acquainted with the great initiation, which is the foundation for entering into the sipritual worlds. <font color="blue"> You beleive this is an Aryan vs.Semetic struggle? That somehow, this is an Occidental vs. Oriental conflict? As you even mentioned, many of these religions are formed from the same roots. The conflict is not between some idealized concept you have of religion but a real unresolvable hate (from one side) and a determined stubborness to survive from the other. </font color>

We can trace the works of both down through the ages, seeing how the Aryan influence in the tradition of the Vedas became a higher civillization spreading out of India, eastward into Persia, Greece, and finally into the northern counrties of Europe. We can also note the route taken by the Semitic teachingsm which came through Moses into the Middle Eastern world. These orginal teachings of Judaism came finally to Jesus who, like Buddha in the East, then reformed the religious and traditional Semitic beliefs into a modern concept for every man. Finally the ourter form, which has become Christianity for the Western mind, has practically covered the globe.

Many religious scholares, including the adeptsm say that the two streams are irreconcilable, invincible, and will not be united. But they fail to look beyond the outer froms, of these two streams. Like most scholars-even mysticws who follow but one path-they seem to have a dualistic, and perhaps a fatalistic, attitude towards these two opposing streams of life. This has been proved by the conflict between the Occidental and Oriental worlds, from ancient Sumaria to modern Russia.

hese conflicting streams of thought appear so much in our lives that usually we fail to recognize them. Hence, nerspapers, books and discussions are filled with the seesaw between the two worlds. And, the individual must fight his own inner battles over these opposing streams of life. History has proved that the bloody conflicts between most nations can be boiled down to the opposing ideas of Semite and Aryan concepts."

I have studied all the religions. <font color="blue"> Not very completely. </font color> Eventually, I came to understand that what others call God, to me atleast, is nothing more than a few basic principles. Your spiritual center, God, heaven, whatever you want to call it, is synonymous with goodness, forgivness, peace in your heart and generousity. It is about giving as a gift to oneself, to others, reaching out to those who lose their way, not to dictate, but rather just to love them as they are and as they are not, adoring all living things, growing to a state of no ego gratification, and practicing a philosophy of no retaliation. <font color="blue"> This is fine and there is nothng wrong with a Buddist philosophy but it brings you no closer to a solution to when they line up the liberals to cut their heads off. I do admire Buddists, but if you believe the answers for all mankind are there, you need to study it just a little more.

Shintal Asee
Deeman

</font color>

I do not see these things in other religions, neither here, or abroad. <font color="blue">Many are there but not in the extreamist versions of most faiths. </font color>

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
02-14-2006, 04:11 PM
Dee, we need to get you on an E-meter asap
remove them thar right wing thetans from your soul.

My new improved model works on 220v....and believe me, you won't be the same person, after I "clear" you
In fact, you'll never be the same person again...
Or we could go with the Cadillac of E-meters, the new Quantum super VII, a steal at only $4500


http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/emeter_quantumsuper7.jpg

We've came a long way since http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/org_emeter.jpg

Vagabond
02-14-2006, 08:57 PM
TAP,TAP,TAP.Dinner on me in 4 seasons in Manhattan.

nAz
02-14-2006, 11:06 PM
Heater that was not my rant... but i just aboutagree with most of it...

BTW like gayle i reply to your post with a Tap TAP tAp of my own.

nAz
02-14-2006, 11:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> TAP,TAP,TAP.Dinner on me in 4 seasons in Manhattan. <hr /></blockquote>

Hot damn! your on my man! i'll eveb wear my confederate colors /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Deeman3
02-15-2006, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dee, we need to get you on an E-meter asap
remove them thar right wing thetans from your soul.

My new improved model works on 220v....and believe me, you won't be the same person, after I "clear" you
In fact, you'll never be the same person again...
Or we could go with the Cadillac of E-meters, the new Quantum super VII, a steal at only $4500


http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/emeter_quantumsuper7.jpg

We've came a long way since http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/images/org_emeter.jpg <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue">Hook me up, I'm through with the discussion anyway..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif </font color>

Deeman

Gayle in MD
02-15-2006, 07:15 AM
Deeman,
The quoted text is not my own, it is quoted from a renouned book on the roots of religious philosophy.

As for Mormans, they're religious philosophy is one of the most chauvanistic of all. There are actually young women to this day, being forced to live with and marry men who abuse them and treat them as sexual slaves, right in this country.

Christian Scientists,.... I watched my cousin die from what began as a minor skin cancer, but her religion forbade any medical intervention. Organized Religion is wrought with ignorance, fear, war, theft, guilt, retaliation, it is obvious, not every God, can be THE God, some of you have to be wrong, but you each think that you are right, and all others are wrong. it is very hard, however, to tell you apart once you take up your guns and bombs.


Without intervention from within the Muslim Religion, I personally see little hope for any real change in the stated goals of the radical Muslims who wish to kill us.

Fighting innocent people in Iraq, does nothing to protect us from being attacked here on our land once again. An all out effort to infiltrate, or locate, the many terrorist cells around the world, rather than occupying Iraq, which we now know had absolutely no connection to ObL, or 9/11, is, IMO, weakening our armed forces, and wasting lives and money, since only 7 % of the insurgency is from outside the country, terrorists.

Ultimately, there must be communication between the radical terrorists and their muslims leaders before we can change their thinking. We can't, after all, set out to kill over a billion Muslims. Our past history in the Middle East has brought us to this point, and to some degree, we have lent a hand in bringing this about. We have sold weapons to them, propped some of them up into power, there have been many ill concieved tactics on the part of the United States.

As more and more Muslims are raised to hate us, taught to determine to kill us, the problem will continue to grow, unless the religious leaders in the Muslim community around the world intervene in the radical thinking among them. So far, they have drastically failed to do this.

I do not subscribe to the philosophy that man should continue to endeavor to solve the problems of the world with bombs. Einstein didn't either.

BTW, I found your pointed reference (To me) about Ted Bundy, your calling me "Grasshopper" your continued use of the word diatribe, and your obvious lack of knowledge regarding the roots of religion, and your failure to address the historical and modern inhumane results of religious fanaticism, both here, and around the world, rather self serving, and rude.

Only a few years have passed since the last bombing of an abortion clinic, and the killing of a doctor, in his home. Radical religious tyrants are alive and well right here on our shores. Those determined to keep religious doctrines a part of our political life, do this country a great disservice, IMO. Churches are being burned down in the south, as we write. I have seen, in my lifetime, enough strife caused by organized religion, and unlike you, I do not think it should be a subject for political debate, or action, of any kind. As long as we each have the right to worship, or not worship, as we wish, that should be enough. When a religious group endeavors to dictate to all, what they can and cannot do in their personal life, (Abortion, sex education, birth control,for example) My personal feeling is that it is the so called God Fearing, who take things to the extreme, and cause disruption in our society.

Righteous, is a far cry from "Right (correct, reasonable)" As history has shown us many many times.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
02-15-2006, 11:39 AM
Don't worry, anything anyone writes here that doesn't support his theories, is labeled as a rant, a diatribe, or naive'. Anybody who could admire Christian Scientist, (no medical treatment, just die, it's Gods will) philosophy, or the Mormans, (Polygamy and arranged marriages between fathers, giving their adolecent daughters over to be sex slaves, and then knock them up every year) isn't playing with a full deck. He doesn't debate, he condescends and degrades, very intelligent.

Gayle in Md.

heater451
02-15-2006, 05:22 PM
nAz--it didn't seem like your writing somehow, but there was no quote signature. And, you usually include a link to other peoples stuff, so I took it as your rant.

Also, I only took time out to reply to certain parts, and not layout whether I agreed/disagreed with every point. However, along that line of thinking, I would challenge the original author to also see if they can find some good things about organized religion.

Faith in a/the God is something that some people need, while others seem to find comfort in the lack of one--although, that too take a sort of faith.


==============================

MosconiJr
02-16-2006, 10:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr>I think we should be very carefull of all organizations where Faith,and the worship of a Diety are replacements for logic.<hr /></blockquote>
Yeah. Kinda like the Baptists in the South /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MJj

Fran Crimi
02-16-2006, 11:49 AM
nAZ, except for your comments about religion in general, you have the same opinion as our President does.

The real culprits are the con men who take advantage of the people who are vulnerable because of their beliefs. I was watching a bio on Bin Laden last night. He was shrewdly cunning in how he gathered his troops and slowly turned them into killing machines. It was very much like Hitler. It was interesting in the bio where a few Islamic leaders were telling their story of how they had been approached by Bin Laden, only they saw through him and didn't buy into his con.

Some will use organized religion to act out their sicknesses. Others will use organizations like the ACLU or the UN to try to do the same, only in a more 'socially acceptable way.'

The only way the Islamic terrorists are going to be willing to sit down and talk is when they have been beat up enough and they see possible defeat in their future.

If you notice in his last tape, Bin Laden for the first time ever, talks about peace. Initially he would always say that it is Allah's will that Americans be destroyed. Now he's changed his tune a bit. Now he's saying he'll call off the troops if we meet his terms. That's the first sign of a man recognizing possible defeat.

September 11th wasn't about religion. It was a brilliantly orchestrated con-job. Bin Laden may very well have convinced himself by now that his is doing Allah's work, but I guarantee there was a time in his life where he was very angry about something and it had nothing to do with religion.

Fran

Alfie
02-16-2006, 06:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> If you notice in his last tape, Bin Laden for the first time ever, talks about peace. Initially he would always say that it is Allah's will that Americans be destroyed. Now he's changed his tune a bit. Now he's saying he'll call off the troops if we meet his terms. That's the first sign of a man recognizing possible defeat.<hr /></blockquote>or it could just be a delaying tactic
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>September 11th wasn't about religion. It was a brilliantly orchestrated con-job. Bin Laden may very well have convinced himself by now that his is doing Allah's work, but I guarantee there was a time in his life where he was very angry about something and it had nothing to do with religion.<hr /></blockquote>Was 9/11 about?
Who did he con?
What was he POed about?

Fran Crimi
02-16-2006, 10:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> If you notice in his last tape, Bin Laden for the first time ever, talks about peace. Initially he would always say that it is Allah's will that Americans be destroyed. Now he's changed his tune a bit. Now he's saying he'll call off the troops if we meet his terms. That's the first sign of a man recognizing possible defeat.<hr /></blockquote>

or it could just be a delaying tactic <font color="blue"> Maybe, but I honestly don't think so. He's seeing too many of his soldiers being bumped off and captured. His networks are being infiltrated. We've cut off much of his money sources. He's stuck in the underground, not exactly the life of luxury he's accustomed to. I don't think he's been able to recruit as many soldiers as he expected. I don't think he's quitting yet, but he's tiring. </font color>



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>September 11th wasn't about religion. It was a brilliantly orchestrated con-job. Bin Laden may very well have convinced himself by now that his is doing Allah's work, but I guarantee there was a time in his life where he was very angry about something and it had nothing to do with religion.<hr /></blockquote>

Was 9/11 about?
<font color="blue"> I don't know, do you? What he says and what he thinks may be two different animals.</font color>

Who did he con?
<font color="blue"> Islamists </font color>

What was he POed about?

<font color="blue"> My guess is he was rejected somewhere along the line. Rejection sets off unstable people. </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

DickLeonard
02-17-2006, 06:05 AM
Fran is Osama the Charles Manson of the Muslim World?####

Fran Crimi
02-17-2006, 08:06 AM
What's your opinion, Dick? Who is Osama?

Fran

heater451
02-17-2006, 03:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr>What was he POed about? <hr /></blockquote>I've heard that Osama was angry that Americans were asked to protect the Holy Land, as opposed to letting the "home team" do it.

In a quick research of motives, I found a post in a forum that states what I am referring to. I have edited a minor bit, but this basically explains what I think motivated him:

[ QUOTE ]
From what I understand, he was recruited by the CIA in the 80's in order to get support and troops for Afganistan's war with the USSR. . . . In the 80's, he worked to remove invaders from Muslim lands -- the Russians from Afganistan. During the war with Iraq over oil, freeing the Kuwaiti people, coalition forces were allowed to station troops in Saudi Arabia. After the war concluded, the US remained in the country. Seeing as Saudi Arabia is the site of most of the holy sites of Islam, Bin Laden saw this as another invasion of holy lands. His terrorism started in response to this.<hr /></blockquote>



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Deeman3
02-17-2006, 04:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr>What was he POed about? <hr /></blockquote>I've heard that Osama was angry that Americans were asked to protect the Holy Land, as opposed to letting the "home team" do it. <font color="blue"> Yes, you are right. However, it was his home team he was offering and the Saudis knew better and this rejection drove him to hate the Americans. He had trained, financed and harbored the home team but the Royal family knew he was really interested in taking power and creating a theorcracy. In fact, if he had been allowed to "defend" the homeland, he would have, IMO, allied himslef with the Americans. </font color>

In a quick research of motives, I found a post in a forum that states what I am referring to. I have edited a minor bit, but this basically explains what I think motivated him:

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
From what I understand, he was recruited by the CIA in the 80's in order to get support and troops for Afganistan's war with the USSR. . . . In the 80's, he worked to remove invaders from Muslim lands -- the Russians from Afganistan. <font color="blue"> He did a pretty godd job at this.</font color> During the war with Iraq over oil, freeing the Kuwaiti people, coalition forces were allowed to station troops in Saudi Arabia. After the war concluded, the US remained in the country. Seeing as Saudi Arabia is the site of most of the holy sites of Islam, Bin Laden saw this as another invasion of holy lands. His terrorism started in response to this.<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> I beleive his motives were mostly political after he was tossed by the family. </font color>



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Fran Crimi
02-17-2006, 05:33 PM
Yeah, I was thinking maybe his family pissed him off. If I can recall, wasn't he here in the U.S. vacationing a few times? Seems to me he was enjoying the western way of life. Then his family cut him off.

His family has very close relations with the U.S., right?

Suddenly the U.S. way of life is a violation of his beliefs. Go after the U.S. and get even with the family, maybe?

Fran

pooltchr
02-17-2006, 08:48 PM
Fran,
Makes sense to me. He seems to be the perfect example of the spoiled rich kid who had his toys taken away.
Steve

Deeman3
02-18-2006, 09:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Yeah, I was thinking maybe his family pissed him off. If I can recall, wasn't he here in the U.S. vacationing a few times? Seems to me he was enjoying the western way of life. Then his family cut him off.

His family has very close relations with the U.S., right?

Suddenly the U.S. way of life is a violation of his beliefs. Go after the U.S. and get even with the family, maybe?

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Fran,

I beleive you are right on target, excuse the expression. OBL loved us until he saw the royal family pick the U.S. over him.


Deeman </font color>

DickLeonard
02-19-2006, 08:26 AM
Fran I think Osama had Intelligence that we were thinking of Invading Iraq and beat us to It, by attacking us. Only he showed us how to do it on the Cheap.####

DickLeonard
02-21-2006, 03:22 PM
Deeman I think his family was close to the President, he packed up nearly 100 relatives right after 911 and whisked them out of the country. No other planes were flying but theirs. I heard the FBI could only ask them three questions and none were relevant to Osama. Name,what after shave lotion they used,did they use Viagara.####

Qtec
02-21-2006, 11:30 PM
Osama says he wasnt involved in the 9-11 attack!

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/obl_int.htm

Q

Fran Crimi
02-22-2006, 06:43 AM
What do YOU believe?

wolfdancer
02-22-2006, 10:15 AM
nAz...Religion is one topic that I hope will not be debated here.
I have decided however, that GWB is not what the founding fathers had in mind....after reading the following:

web page (http://jeromekahn123.tripod.com/thinkersonreligion/id9.html)

web page (http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1586978,00.html)

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2005/10/06/bush372ready.jpg