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boblzer0
02-15-2006, 07:18 AM
regarding the cue ball and the object ball being less that a chalk width apart we'll say an eight of and inch. what's the best way to judge if this shout is a push shot or not.

Billy_Bob
02-15-2006, 08:02 AM
I think you are talking about a "double hit" which is when the tip of the cue will hit the cue ball twice.

To do a "push shot", slowly push the cue ball with the tip of your cue so the tip remains in contact with the ball.

Following is a high speed video of a double hit which is a foul. And the CB can be several inches away and you can get a double hit if your follow through is longer than the distance between the CB and OB. Search forums and groups.google.com for "nip shot".

Double hit...
http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-12.htm

boblzer0
02-15-2006, 08:22 AM
ok regarding that video, say you had that same shot but chose to shoot the cue ball at say a 15 degree angle to one side. when using this bca rule to judge

"When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul."

what constitutes the cue ball moving forward. does it mean straight following the object ball or forward in the direction that the cue is traveling. thanks alot.

Billy_Bob
02-15-2006, 09:26 AM
The symptom of a double hit is that the cue ball IMMEDIATELY follows the object ball. Follows right behind the object ball.

With a good hit, but using follow, the cue ball will first HESITATE before proceeding forward.

Practice with the cue ball about 3 fingers distance from the object ball.

Shoot with a long follow through and see the CB follow right behind the object ball.

Then shoot with a short follow through. Do this by getting down on the shot, then sliding you back hand forward on the butt of your cue so you will not be able to follow through very much. Practice your strokes to the side of the CB. Be sure you can't follow through very far (because your hand is so far forward on the butt).

And I assume you will be keeping your upper arm from moving with your stroke.

A shot with an exceptionally short stroke is called a "nip shot". There is also a nip follow or nip draw shot.

Also you can hit the CB with your cue at an angle, then it will not hit the CB a second time.

And you can hit high and to an angle on the CB so the tip flys up into the air after the hit. This is called a fouette shot.

Note that once you learn nip shots (don't follow through more than the distance between balls), you may still have trouble with someone on your league calling a foul on you because you hit it straight on. Educate them about the ball following thing. If it is a regional tournament with a ref, then they should know what a good hit with a nip shot is.

Cornerman
02-15-2006, 09:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote boblzer0:</font><hr> ok regarding that video, say you had that same shot but chose to shoot the cue ball at say a 15 degree angle to one side. when using this bca rule to judge

"When the distance between the cue ball and the object ball is less than the width of a chalk cube, (See Diagram 18) special attention from the referee is required. In such a situation, unless the referee can positively determine a legal shot has been performed, the following guidance may apply: if the cue ball follows through the object ball more than 1/2 ball, it is a foul."<hr /></blockquote>Very good question. The first thing you have to realize is that what you've quoted isn't a rule, but rather a guideline. It's useless wording, IMO, and hopefully won't be in the book the next time the rules come out. You can with practice shoot directly at the pair, even if they're less than a chalk-width apart, and still get plenty of forward follow with a very legal stroke.

If you double-hit, it's a foul. If you don't, it's not a foul. That's easier to say/understand if you don't look at that chalk-width guideline. Even if you shoot away at at 15° angle, the double-hit possibility is still there.

Fred

Billy_Bob
02-15-2006, 09:33 AM
Also if the balls are a little further apart, you can hear two "clicks". This is the tip hitting twice. When they are very close, the sounds blend into one.

boblzer0
02-15-2006, 09:44 AM
well the rule came up in a non officiated bca game on our league. my opponent hit this shot on about a 15 degree angle and the cue ball went forward but not directly behind the object ball. it was toward the side in which he angled the cue ball. he seemed to hit low english on this shot. my thinking is it must be a foul but since nobody could tell for sure i wanted some clarity on using the bca guideline.

boblzer0
02-15-2006, 10:07 AM
this is how it played out

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html

START( %HK6M4%PL0N8%WG7D7%XK4L9%YF2H7%ZK6N4 )END

Bob_Jewett
02-15-2006, 11:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote boblzer0:</font><hr> this is how it played out

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html

START( %HK6M4%PL0N8%WG7D7%XK4L9%YF2H7%ZK6N4 )END <hr /></blockquote>
If he hit the cue ball below center and got that angle, he fouled. One guide line is to ask if you would have gotten the same action with the cue ball back six inches. If the answer is "no way" then the shot was probably foul.

The big problem with the current double hit rule is player (and referee) ignorance. They don't know where the balls can go with a legal hit, so they have no clue when a double hit happens. Some feel that the players (and referees) will never get any smarter so the rule should be changed. I feel that the rule should not be changed and the players and referees should get smarter.

There are several articles about close-ball techniques and how to apply the rules at:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

In particular, see the columns from 1993.

Also, check out my column in the January 2006 Billiards Digest which shows some example double hits for discussing a possible rule change (not on line yet).

dr_dave
02-15-2006, 11:47 AM
In addition to Bob's great resources, there are also some super slow motion demonstrations in HSV A.9-A.12 and A.110-A.116 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html). There is also some good advice and comments in some past threads (see the links under "fouls" in the threads summary section of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html)).

Regards,
Dave
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote boblzer0:</font><hr> this is how it played out

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/pooltable2.html

START( %HK6M4%PL0N8%WG7D7%XK4L9%YF2H7%ZK6N4 )END <hr /></blockquote>
If he hit the cue ball below center and got that angle, he fouled. One guide line is to ask if you would have gotten the same action with the cue ball back six inches. If the answer is "no way" then the shot was probably foul.

The big problem with the current double hit rule is player (and referee) ignorance. They don't know where the balls can go with a legal hit, so they have no clue when a double hit happens. Some feel that the players (and referees) will never get any smarter so the rule should be changed. I feel that the rule should not be changed and the players and referees should get smarter.

There are several articles about close-ball techniques and how to apply the rules at:

http://www.sfbilliards.com/articles/BD_articles.html

In particular, see the columns from 1993.

Also, check out my column in the January 2006 Billiards Digest which shows some example double hits for discussing a possible rule change (not on line yet). <hr /></blockquote>