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dutchboy
03-13-2006, 04:26 PM
Lately I’ve noticed a inability to follow the cue ball with any authority…been trying full tip above center, one and half tips etc: Hard stroke, medium speed…all at a real loss of getting any continuity…drawing the ball is one of my strengths so naturally I play patterns that lend themselves to that but obviously that wont do in the long run…When using a hard stroke I seem to be stunning the ball or I make it jump and die…at medium speed there’s no pace…Could it be that some cues draw the ball better than they follow? {I’m using a predator 314} I can pull the ball back for a three rail position but can barely get the length of the table with follow. It’s starting to piss me off. Any suggestions?

Scott Lee
03-13-2006, 05:26 PM
dutchboy...Without seeing you stroke the CB, it's hard to say. However, if you're able to draw the ball like you say you can, then you should be able to follow it with the same kind of stroke. Sounds to me like you're not hitting the CB where you think you are. If you hit above center at the same area of the CB that you're shooting draw (except high instead of low), you'll be able to follow the ball quite easily, with a soft stroke. If your cue is too elevated, you're probably getting some kind of 'jump' and limiting the amount of topspin you're able to put on the ball. My advice would be to get your stroke checked out by a qualified instructor.

Scott Lee

jtlabs
03-13-2006, 09:00 PM
I personally use two different type of strokes for my follow and draw. My draw stroke is a little bit more snappy(which is probaly why I can not draw from far distances) while my follow stroke is just a gentle easy follow through at light medium speed. When I want to pocket the ball with authority and follow lets say 1 diamond, I use about one tip of high english and a draw stroke or a punch stroke.

To go the length of the table.. I just shoot the CB with 1 1/2 tips of high english with a lot of follow through, and a very relaxed stroke. Unlike the draw, I do not have to hit the ball hard to get it to follow the length of the table(if it climbs it gets very little elevation). I like to use a open V bridge with this shot.

Im learning, but unlike you I need to get way better at my draw shot. Any tips?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Regards,
Jay

Bob_Jewett
03-13-2006, 09:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dutchboy:</font><hr> ... I can pull the ball back for a three rail position but can barely get the length of the table with follow. It’s starting to piss me off. Any suggestions? <hr /></blockquote>
Is the cue ball the same size and weight as the object balls? Try exchanging them, and playing with the 15 as your cue ball and the cue ball as the object ball and see if you can get follow then.

ryushen21
03-13-2006, 09:41 PM
First off, i agree with Scott. Get yourself a qualified instructor to look at your stroke and assess your weakness and strengths.

Now, it sounds a lot like you are dealing with what i was going through a few months ago. My natural stroke and aim favors the bottom side of the CB. I'm not sure why but that is just how my stroke is.

I was shooting and discovered that i was not able to produce top spin in equal magnitude to my draw stroke. Using the video feature on my digital camera, i had some friends video me shooting several shots utilizing topspin. In my prestroke, i was aiming 1-2 tips above center;however, in my delivery stroke, the tip position was dropping and hence diminishing my topspin. What i had to do was focus on hitting 1-2 tips above center and delivering my final stroke in a straight line through the top point.

I hope that will you. But definitely look into a qualified instructor.

ABQ_Poolhead
03-13-2006, 10:12 PM
Dutch, besides keeping your stick level, check your follow-through on the shot. You don't need to hit the cueball real high to get good follow. Hitting 1 tip above center gives you natural roll right away; it's the follow-through that really makes a follow-shot work. I'll keep working on my draw shot to get as good as you!

SpiderMan
03-14-2006, 08:02 AM
I don't think the cue stick should be a factor in what you describe. Have you recently switched cue balls? For example, if the CB were a quarter-ounce lighter you would see a difference in the ability to follow vs draw.

SpiderMan

Billy_Bob
03-14-2006, 10:08 AM
Follow through!
Follow through!
Follow through!

Did I say follow through?

I think learning follow is one of the easiest things to learn, however no one PRACTICES this.

Daily follow practice...
Along long rail, place the cue ball 1 diamond back from an object ball. Then practice shooting object ball into far corner pocket. (See Wei diagram below.) Shoot cue ball so it follows 1 diamond past where object ball was(A). Next shot 2 diamonds past (B), 3, 4, etc. Final shot as much follow as possible - cue ball hits far rail then comes back. (Line up balls so cue ball will not follow object ball into corner pocket.)

For how much follow you will get, you can hit higher or lower on the cue ball above center, follow through a little or follow through a lot, and then slow shot or fast shot.

Experiment with these things. Do what works best for you. Just be able to leave the cue ball 1 diamond past where OB was, 2, 3, 4, etc.

Follow is very handy. Once you practice a bit, you will be able to leave the CB at the far end of the table for another shot or anywhere inbetween.

And just practice shooting 6 or 8 balls as above daily. After about a month, it will be a piece of cake.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/

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%AU2D5%PO0D6%QZ3E1%R`7E0%Sg0D8%Tl8D9%Ur8C9%VU9D4%W S8D5%XO9D5

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TennesseeJoe
03-14-2006, 10:25 AM
How did Bob's suggestion work? This seems to be the first step and most important. You may not really have a stroke problem. If your cue ball is lighter than the object balls it will be harder to put follow on the ball.

Eric.
03-14-2006, 11:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Follow through!
Follow through!
Follow through!

Did I say follow through?

I think learning follow is one of the easiest things to learn, however no one PRACTICES this.

Daily follow practice...
Along long rail, place the cue ball 1 diamond back from an object ball. Then practice shooting object ball into far corner pocket. (See Wei diagram below.) Shoot cue ball so it follows 1 diamond past where object ball was(A). Next shot 2 diamonds past (B), 3, 4, etc. Final shot as much follow as possible - cue ball hits far rail then comes back. (Line up balls so cue ball will not follow object ball into corner pocket.)

For how much follow you will get, you can hit higher or lower on the cue ball above center, follow through a little or follow through a lot, and then slow shot or fast shot.

Experiment with these things. Do what works best for you. Just be able to leave the cue ball 1 diamond past where OB was, 2, 3, 4, etc.

Follow is very handy. Once you practice a bit, you will be able to leave the CB at the far end of the table for another shot or anywhere inbetween.

And just practice shooting 6 or 8 balls as above daily. After about a month, it will be a piece of cake.

http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/

START(
%AU2D5%PO0D6%QZ3E1%R`7E0%Sg0D8%Tl8D9%Ur8C9%VU9D4%W S8D5%XO9D5

)END <hr /></blockquote>

I think this is very misleading, inexperienced advice. The amount or length of follow thru will have very little effect on the amount of draw or follow you get. It's the quality of the stroke. You need to "accelerate" thru the CB and it helps to have good timing. I'm not an instructor, so I probably am not explaining it well but a long follow thru is not a must for good action on the CB.

IMO.


Eric

ryushen21
03-14-2006, 11:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
I think this is very misleading, inexperienced advice. The amount or length of follow thru will have very little effect on the amount of draw or follow you get. It's the quality of the stroke. You need to "accelerate" thru the CB and it helps to have good timing. I'm not an instructor, so I probably am not explaining it well but a long follow thru is not a must for good action on the CB. <hr /></blockquote>

I think that is very, very incorrect. Follow through is the natural finish to the stroke. In addition it has a great amount to do with action on the CB. If you don't believe it, watch some people the next time you are in a pool hall. Beginning players will hit low on the CB to try to prevent a scratch on a straight in shot. But because they do not execute with follow through, even though they hit low they still scratch.

Now, i do agree that you need to accelerate through the CB. This assures that there is sufficient speed in your shot to produce the desired english.

Eric.
03-14-2006, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ryushen21:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
I think this is very misleading, inexperienced advice. The amount or length of follow thru will have very little effect on the amount of draw or follow you get. It's the quality of the stroke. You need to "accelerate" thru the CB and it helps to have good timing. I'm not an instructor, so I probably am not explaining it well but a long follow thru is not a must for good action on the CB. <hr /></blockquote>

I think that is very, very incorrect. Follow through is the natural finish to the stroke. In addition it has a great amount to do with action on the CB. If you don't believe it, watch some people the next time you are in a pool hall. Beginning players will hit low on the CB to try to prevent a scratch on a straight in shot. But because they do not execute with follow through, even though they hit low they still scratch.

Now, i do agree that you need to accelerate through the CB. This assures that there is sufficient speed in your shot to produce the desired english. <hr /></blockquote>

It sounds like you and I aren't on the same page either.

I wasn't suggesting to stop your stroke or "poke" at the cb, what I was implying is that just following thru by itself will not lead to more draw or follow on the CB. Hell, you can follow thru to the joint and still not get much action. Personally, I find the "quality" of the stroke more improtant than just following thru. You need to have a pure stroke. You need to have good timing i.e. anticipating the cue tip to cb contact and accelerating thru.

Basically, follow thru and finishing is part of a good stroke, but follow thru alone, is not the key to getting more action on the cb.

IMO.


Eric

I might not be explaining it well enough

mikeindayton
03-14-2006, 12:43 PM
Hey guys! The one thing I have learned over the years is, if your stroke is not true and consistant, I don't care what english you use you will not controll the cb with any kind of repeated controll. Anybody I have ever talked to (PRO's or Top of the gamers)consistant stroke is the key! Follow thru or draw (my opinnion) everybody has their own style of game.

Stretch
03-14-2006, 01:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dutchboy:</font><hr> Lately I’ve noticed a inability to follow the cue ball with any authority…been trying full tip above center, one and half tips etc: Hard stroke, medium speed…all at a real loss of getting any continuity…drawing the ball is one of my strengths so naturally I play patterns that lend themselves to that but obviously that wont do in the long run…When using a hard stroke I seem to be stunning the ball or I make it jump and die…at medium speed there’s no pace…Could it be that some cues draw the ball better than they follow? {I’m using a predator 314} I can pull the ball back for a three rail position but can barely get the length of the table with follow. It’s starting to piss me off. Any suggestions? <hr /></blockquote>

Wow! lots of suggestions. I like hearing how everyone responds on topics like this because everyone has thier own way.

Since your comfort zone is draw and stun shape i'm guessing you use a looped bridge mostly. If that's the case you might like to try an open bridge for follow shots. It allows for clear more accurate sighting and tip placement, and gives you a better touch for speed control. imo of course.

follow to me all boils down to some very simple points. If you shoot the ball so that the cue ball has natural roll on contact your going to be getting perfectly predictable results. For longer shots that's rarely a problem as the cloth friction will start to roll it before contact anyway. But consider this. The rule of 90 still applies here. The cueball on hard shots will still initially travel along the tangent line before the top spin takes over for everything except a perfectly dead on shot, and it don't count cause it's a scratch shot. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif So when useing hard follow that's a ton of topspin to overcome a direct or nearly dead on hit then do the distance thing on spin alone. Be real careful when you use this on ob's close to a rail, the topsin generated to travel the ball will actually check whitie off the first rail and kill the speed.

Good thread and lots of good points on here. Forceing any shot is a risky proposition at the best of times, but sometimes nessecery to get you back into prime position. The percetage players usuall just accept what the table offers, and help the cueball do what it wants to do anyways it seems. Looks easy dosn't it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif St.

Billy_Bob
03-15-2006, 10:10 AM
I'll say this about follow through... With beginners who can not draw or follow, they are "poking" - not following through. And they are not getting any draw or follow.

When I tell them to follow through, I point to a spot on the cloth about 8 inches past where the cue ball is, tell them to follow through and LEAVE the tip of their cue at that spot after shooting. Then they get follow or draw. And then they learn to follow through and then bring the cue back to get out of the way (with draw).

So these are people who could not draw or follow before, but now can.

And you need to "fight" with them to get them to follow through rather than poking. Several times in a row, I need to say leave the tip of your cue here. Don't worry about the cue ball. Eventually they follow through and then get draw or follow.

It works for me and them...

Eric.
03-15-2006, 10:32 AM
The fact that it worked for a couple of people doesn't make it less misleading.

If you don't stroke it "properly", they will follow through and not always get the results they're looking for and never know why.

I might be a little sensitive here, but your posts remind me of someone I knew who used to give tips and how-to advice when he wasn't quite informed enough to do so. In fact, it took me years to figure out why his advice wasn't good and I was pissed that I wasted a lot of time practicing what he said and in the end, it held my game back.

On that note, I'm glad that some people "have no financial interest in any billiard related businesses or schools."


Eric

Billy_Bob
03-15-2006, 11:27 AM
Well follow through is not my idea!

I learned this from the various billiard forums. Below are a few links on follow through. Also I always say, learn all you can. Try various things, then use what works best for you.

Here is what other people have to say about follow through...

Follow through discussion...
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.sport.billiard/browse_frm/thread/1b101033c932b43?q=follow+through&amp;hl=en&amp;

"...You need to have a level stick, shoot low on the cue ball, and follow through at a steady speed. The follow through is what causes the cue ball to spin..."
http://www.ez-shot-ghost-ball.com/pool_faq.html

Zillions more...
Search google.com for...
billiards "follow through"

Eric.
03-15-2006, 11:56 AM
Billy Bob,

What I'm saying is that "follow thru, follow thru, follow thru" is good general advice, but it is NOT the cure to what dutchboy was asking.

Here's an example; if you preach to follow thru 8" in order to get some draw and your misguided "students" listen to you blindly, what happens when they need to execute a "nip draw shot" where the CB is only a couple of inches away from the OB? Let's say the balls are 2" apart and you need to draw the rock a couple of feet, do you still follow thru 8" and stop your tip on the table? I hope not.


Eric &gt; /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee
03-15-2006, 08:12 PM
Eric...You cannot reason with someone who doesn't understand the fundamental concept of what a basic stroke is. Everything you said is absolutely correct. They don't know what they don't know. Follow through is not something you MAKE happen. It is the result of a good quality stroke, completed to a natural finish position. That "natural" finish position varies somewhat, as you accurately described, according to the shot situation.

Scott Lee

Bob_Jewett
03-15-2006, 08:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Well follow through is not my idea!

I learned this from the various billiard forums. ....
"...You need to have a level stick, shoot low on the cue ball, and follow through at a steady speed. The follow through is what causes the cue ball to spin..."
... <hr /></blockquote>
I'm not quite sure how to break this to you, Billy Bob, but not everything you read on the internet is true. Until you learn how to filter out the BS, you will be at the mercy of the ignorant and mistaken. I suggest you read what Bob Byrne had to say about follow through in his "Advanced Technique" book, and give Google a rest.

Billy_Bob
03-16-2006, 09:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>...what happens when they need to execute a "nip draw shot"...<hr /></blockquote>

Well I first learned draw, then later the nip draw, nip follow, etc. Or drawing when shooting over a ball, drawing when cue ball near or on rail, etc.

But I see these shots as being advanced. The folks I'm helping are bangers with little or no patience. They don't know what a double hit is and don't have the patience to learn. And they will never pay for lessons.

So with my experience showing beginners things. I show many how to draw in a crude way. Some don't practice and months down the road still can't draw. Some practice and can draw, but can't control how far they draw. And there is one guy I know out of 100 who listens. With this guy you can teach him things like double hits, nip shots, etc. He learns well.

But for *most* beginners (who have little patience), it seems to me they learn best if told something simple; "Leave the tip of your cue here!".

So it seems to me the natural thing would be to first learn to follow through, make things happen. Then advanced, learn how to not follow through - make the same things happen. I can't imagine trying to teach many of these people a nip draw as part of their first experience with draw shots. I would think it would make things too complicated for them.

I know with myself, I did better learning one or two things at a time.

Cane
03-16-2006, 08:39 PM
Imparting spin on a ball, be it for draw, follow, side, or whatever, requires a good accelerating stroke. Follow through, IMHO, is a very misleading term. FINISH YOUR STROKE would be better used here. Backstroke, accelerate to the contact with the CB and finish your stroke.

Now, why is that important? Does finishing your stroke make the cue ball spin better or more? In itself, absolutely NOT, but it does insure that you aren't slowing the cue down before impact with the CB. Accelerating to the CB and making contact with it where you intend to make contact is what makes the CB spin. After the tip hits the CB, the CB LEAVES and unless you've really screwed up the shot, the tip and the CB are no longer in contact! After the CB leaves it's resting spot, it doesn't really care what the cue does. The cue following through to thin air or to the table, has absolutely no effect on the CB...

Here lies the rub. If you don't properly finish (or follow through, if you'd rather call it that) then you probably are NOT accelerating your stroke to the CB. What ususally happens with those that poke at the ball is that their cue is neither accelerating or staying at a constant speed when it hits the CB, rather it's slowing down and it's slowing down much more drastically than many realize. THAT'S where disaster falls and why a proper finish, IMO is necessary. Follow through, by itself, has nothing to do with spinning the ball. STROKE has everything to do with spinning the ball. Essentially, as far as the CB is concerned, the stoke is over on contact, but for the player, a finish is necessary because he doesn't have the muscle control to accelerate to the CB then abruptly stop the cue. For everyone I've ever seen that plays good pool, they have to finish their stroke in order to maintain cue speed or cue acceleration, to the CB.

On the other hand, the finish doesn't necessarily have to be a long one. I've heard many in pool rooms helping out another player say, "You have to have a long follow through to get a lot of draw". Well, they have no idea what they're talking about... I have one specialty stroke that I use in special situations, called a "Short Stop Stroke". With this stroke, depending on the situation, my finish can be only one inch or so through the contact point on the CB (where the tip contacts the CB), yet I can draw the CB table length with that stroke. Another specialty stroke, my Finesse Speed stroke, sometimes only finishes less than a half an inch past the contact point on the CB (sometimes only the thickness of the tip past the CB), yet, I can draw, follow, masse, whatever I want with that sroke. The key here is that I am accelerating my cue throughout the arch of my stroke, even though my finish point or finish distance (amount of follow through, if you prefer) will change in varying situations. Follow through does NOT make the CB draw or follow well... a proper accelerating stroke does. The follow through or finish is just the end of a fundamentally sound stroke.

Just my 2c...

Bob

Edit Post Script: After reading your original post again, look at how level your cue is at contact. If your cue is elevated too much, then you could hit barely below horizontal center on the CB and draw the shine off of it, but when you try a follow shot, just above horizontal center, then really you MAY not be hitting above center at all. I mean, yes, you're hitting above horizontal center, meaning above the center line of the ball in relationship to the table, but you may not be hitting above CORE center. That may explain why you're just stunning the shot or jumping it when you try to follow. If you hit above horizontal center, but your cue is elevated enough that the power is going through or just barely above, core center, then what you're doing is shooting a good jump shot, not a follow shot. Look at how much the butt of your cue is above the tip. Try to get it as close to level as is feasable for every shot.

Billy_Bob
03-17-2006, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cane:</font><hr> ...FINISH YOUR STROKE would be better used here. Backstroke, accelerate to the contact with the CB and finish your stroke...<hr /></blockquote>

Very good post. Thank you!

pooltchr
03-17-2006, 09:50 AM
Bob.
Very nice post! How did you get so smart?? I gotta start spending more time with you!!
You didn't mention it, but with the short stop stroke, I bet you can still use Set Pause and Finish too.
Good explanation! Thanks
Steve

wolfdancer
03-17-2006, 10:45 AM
Eric, I usually read the pool related threads, but don't comment on them...I see three groups that do...those that want to know, those that do know, and the few that think they know.
Like many players, I try to help out people that know less about the game then I do...(that group keeps getting smaller and smaller)....which makes one feel like they might belong in the "do know" class....but then there's days like yesterday, when I took advantage of a free pool lesson,by a top local player, where I was shown things I didn't know...and will have to practice.And that places me back in group 1...a reality check...
It's still a great game though, and I'll still share my meagre knowledge of it, when it seems appropiate.....and hope I still remember my place in the "food chain"
Free Pool Lessons !!!!!......this is a great idea...I'll have to bring it up to Randy if I ever can trap him into a $10 nassau match on the golf course.
The gentleman that gave me the pool lesson usually charges more then my SS check would allow me to pay....but it would have been worth his fee.