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Deeman3
03-24-2006, 12:00 PM
About the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years prior:

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage ."

Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University School of Law, St. Paul,
Minnesota, points out some interesting facts concerning the 2000
Presidential election:

Population of counties won by: Gore: 127 million; Bush: 143 million;

Square miles of land won by: Gore: 580,000; Bush: 2,427,000

States won by: Gore: 19 Bush: 29

Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by: Gore: 13.2 Bush: 2.1

Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the tax-paying citizens of this great country. Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens living in government-owned tenements and living off government welfare..."

Olson believes the United States is now somewhere between the "complacency and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some 40 percent of the nation's population already having reached the "governmental dependency" phase.

ceebee
03-24-2006, 12:47 PM
Accurately locating our position, chronologically, on the aforementioned stages of democratic government is difficult at best. Myself, I think we are well into the apathetic stage. The voting citizenry is almost totally apathetic about government actions, government accountability, media truth & private enterprise practices. The only citizens represented at the polls are the well-to-do bunch.

The goddamn Congress is a self legitimizing bunch of theives & the American People are apathetic about their criminal rule. The only group on the Continent, that hasn't a lobby, is the American Taxpayer. That is about as apathetic as is possible.

In my view, we only have a little time (less than 20 years) until collapse is near. If we don't return to our original government of the people, by the people & for the people... hard times are ahead of us. If we happen to suffer more terrorist activities, especiall a nuclear bomb, a devastating destiny might be ours.

One consolation... since I don't have anything... the mob won't be pillaging & plundering my home. However, rich families might meet the mob, unless they can somehow pay the military to ward off annihalation.

wolfdancer
03-24-2006, 01:35 PM
Would the tax cut qualify as a gererous gift from our non-existant public treasury?
And are farmland and deserts....and the Republic of Texas, being compared to these gov't owned tenement cities, where folks live of of welfare?...
I agree though with the dictatorship, and bondage....did Tyler mention anything about GWB?
Where did you get this s**t anyway?
Wait, protect your sources.....go to jail instead

Deeman3
03-24-2006, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Would the tax cut qualify as a gererous gift from our non-existant public treasury?
And are farmland and deserts....and the Republic of Texas, being compared to these gov't owned tenement cities, where folks live of of welfare?...
I agree though with the dictatorship, and bondage....did Tyler mention anything about GWB?
Where did you get this s**t anyway?
Wait, protect your sources.....go to jail instead <hr /></blockquote>

Tyler is being channeled, right now, by an evangelical GWB, can't you tell. I've have told all of you, despite my right wing background, that I want my time at the trough of public funds as well. I'm tired of every other squeeky wheel getting the grease. I'm hiding income and assets until they have to come out and give me a mercy infusion of cash and believe it or not, France is my ally in this cleaver deception. Mai Qui....

Give up my sources, I'd rather be tied to a chair naked with Hillary on my lap....

Deeman
now that's an ugly thought...sorry

pooltchr
03-24-2006, 02:52 PM
Dee,
I've seen that before and think it's facinating. Also a bit unsettling.
As for the breakdown on voters for the two candidates, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
As for your comment on Hillery....that's a visual that is unfortunately going to take a while to get rid of!!!!
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Steve

Deeman3
03-24-2006, 03:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Dee,
I've seen that before and think it's facinating. Also a bit unsettling.
As for the breakdown on voters for the two candidates, it shouldn't come as much of a surprise.
As for your comment on Hillery....that's a visual that is unfortunately going to take a while to get rid of!!!!
UGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Hey, it's even worse for me. I won't be able to sleep tonight... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif </font color>

Deeman

wolfdancer
03-24-2006, 03:34 PM
A Republican, with a sense of humor.....rare
Hillary may surprise you with a few left wing positions from the Kama Sutra, not suited for your average right winger.

[ QUOTE ]
I want my time at the trough of public funds <hr /></blockquote>
Well I'm glad that we have that settled ....it's like that old sex joke..."would you do it for a million?...and then you negotiate prices"
And now that you have admitted your eagerness to get some of Ed's money via the welfare system....welcome to the Democratic Party!!!!!

SnakebyteXX
03-24-2006, 06:41 PM
From Snopes:

<font color="blue">Origins: The piece quoted above has been circulating on the Internet since shortly after the November 2000 presidential election. We haven't examined it ourselves yet, but Mike Powell of Kennewick, Washington, was kind enough to send us his analysis, which we're happy to include here.

1. The population of the counties and square miles of area won by each Bush and Gore appear to be accurate. They are consistent with the election-result map published by USA Today on 20 November 2000.

2. The number of states won by each candidate is wrong, but the numbers given (29 and 19) imply this piece was written before the results of the Florida and New Mexico vote-counts were determined. The final tallies were 30 states for Bush and 20 for Gore.

3. The quote from "Alexander Tyler" is very likely fictitious. His name was actually "Lord Woodhouselee, Alexander Fraser Tytler," and he was a Scottish historian/professor who wrote several books in the late 1700s and early 1800s.

However, there is no record of The Fall of the Athenian Republic or The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic in the Library of Congress, which has several other titles by Tytler. This quote has also been cited as being from Tytler's Universal History or from his Elements of General History, Ancient and Modern, books that do exist. These books seem the most likely source of the quote, as they contain extensive discussions of the political systems in historic civilizations, including Athens. Universal History was published after, and based upon, Elements of General History, which was a collection of Professor Tytler's lecture notes.

Tytler's book, Universal history, from the creation of the world to the beginning of the eighteenth century, is available for viewing and searching on-line. The complete text was searched for each of the following phrases:

* Athenian Republic
* democracy
* generous gifts
* public treasury
* loose fiscal
* fiscal
* bondage
* 200 years
* two hundred years
* spiritual faith

In no case was text identified that was remotely similar in words or intent to the alleged Tytler quote.

4. Professor Joseph Olson of Hamline University is not the source of any of the statistics or the text attributed to him. Professor Olson was contacted (by me) via e-mail, and he confirmed that he had no authorship or involvement in this matter. And, as Fayette Citizen editor Dave Hamrick wrote back in January 2001:

I really enjoyed one recent message that was circulated extremely widely, at least among conservatives. It gave several interesting "facts" supposedly compiled by statisticians and political scientists about the counties across the nation that voted for George Bush and the ones that voted for Al Gore in the recent election.

Supposedly, the people in the counties for Bush had more education, more income, ad infinitum, than the counties for Gore.

I didn't have time to check them all out, but I was curious about one item in particular... the contention that the murder rate in the Gore counties was about a billion times higher than in the Bush counties.

This was attributed to a Professor Joseph Olson at the Hamline University School of Law. I never heard of such a university, but went online and found it. And Prof. Olson does exist.

"Now I'm getting somewhere," I thought.

But in response to my e-mail, Olson said the "research" was attributed to him erroneously. He said it came from a Sheriff Jay Printz in Montana. I e-mailed Sheriff Printz, and guess what? He didn't do the research either, and didn't remember who had e-mailed it to him.

In other words, he got the same legend e-mailed to him and passed it on to Olson without checking it out, and when Olson passed it on, someone thought it sounded better if a law professor had done the research, and so it grew.

Who knows where it originally came from, but it's just not true.

5. The county-by-county murder-rate comparison presented in this piece is wrong.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice (DoJ), in the year 2000 the national murder rate was about 5.5 per 100,000 residents. Homicide data by county for 1999 and 2000 can be downloaded from the National Archive of Criminal Justice Data (NAJCD), and the counties won by Gore and Bush can be identified using the county-by-county election results made available by CNN. (The NACJD provides not only the number of reported murders for each county, but also the population for each.) The average murder rate in the counties won by Gore vs. the rate in the counties won by Bush can be determined from this data.

By calculating the murder rate for each county and then taking the averages, we find a murder rate (defined as number of murders per 100,000 residents) of about 5.2 for the "average" Gore county and 3.3 for the average Bush county. But since people, rather than counties, commit murders, a more appropriate approach is to calculate the total number of murders in the counties won by each candidate and divide that figure by the total number of residents in those counties. This more appropriate method yields the following average murder rates in counties won by each candidate:

# Gore: 6.5
# Bush: 4.1


There is a distinct difference between these two numbers, but it is nowhere near as large as the quoted e-mail message states (i.e., 13.2 for Gore vs. 2.1 for Bush). Note that the average of these two figures is 5.3, which, as expected, is very close to the reported national murder rate of 5.5. </font color>

web page (http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/tyler.asp)

Gayle in MD
03-25-2006, 09:11 AM
Thanks Richard,
Tell me, do the Bush numbers of murders include the people he put to death in Texas? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in Md.

SPetty
03-25-2006, 06:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Tell me, do the Bush numbers of murders include the people he put to death in Texas? <hr /></blockquote>Gotta call foul on that one. Bush didn't/doesn't run the judicial system here.