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Vagabond
04-07-2006, 05:57 PM
Today when I was having my lunch in waffle House in Albuquerque, a man walked in and was trying to sell some trinkets etc.Waitress spoke to him.They both spoke in spanish.After that he left.The waitress said that when she told him that he can`t sell the stuff on this property he was challenging her saying `` why can`t I sell here?``.Did you get it folks? This is what is going to happen when some Americans try to sanitize the illegal entry by some people into this country.I see them as invaders of a sovereign Nation of USA and they should be treated and dealt as criminals.
Funeral preparations underway for America`s greatness,values,beliefs. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Gayle in MD
04-08-2006, 05:32 AM
Yup, and it is a much bigger problem than most people realize. For example, when the pro illegal amnesty Mexican representatives on the hill talk about illegals, they tell so many lies about the situation, the average person doesn't get the true facts. They'll say things like, Illegals contribute ten billion to our economy every year, but fail to add that they cost us 26 billion in in other services. They will say that illegals are doing jobs Americans won't do, this part really makes me mad, because Americans won't do them because illegals have driven down the wages in the jobs which they have taken from our lower income people here. Add to that that there has been no increase in the Minimum wage since 1997, and the picture becomes one of importing more low wage, poverty level workers, for the sake of higher Corporate profits. The structure of our present economic circumstances, as exascerbated by this administrations economic policies, will widen the growing chasm between the rich and the poor. Imagine anyone in this country trying to live on five dollars or so an hour. It is ridiculous!

Gayle in Md. So proud I didn't vote for George Bush!

DickLeonard
04-08-2006, 06:34 AM
Gayle I was looking for a post on Georges declassifying Valerie Plume. I thought you would have been so gleeful you would have wet your pants. I did.####

Vagabond
04-08-2006, 06:51 AM
I am an independent,neither a democrat nor a Republican.I am glad that you are able to anticipate what the future holds for America as a result of invasion of our country thru riogrande river in Elpasso.
I do not care how much money they will put into our economy.They are illegals and did a criminal act. In my opinion the politicians and the leaders of catholic church that are defending these criminals are aiding&abetting.
Now this is a land of criminals with 11 million invaders + 1 million supporters of the invaders.

Gayle in MD
04-08-2006, 07:10 AM
Absolutely outrageous, isn't it, but how can we expect the party in power to do anything about law breakers, when they themselves are the poster kids for law breaking, from the president to the Congress!

Frankly, I don't care if it would take twenty years for us to catch up with all the illegals, we should do it, over a period of time, and send the message, if you get in here, sooner or later, we'll catch you and send you back. Build the fense, do whatever it takes! I'd much rather have my tax dollars go for that, than for killing people on the other side of the world, for no good reason!


The degrading of our laws, rules of war, Constitutional rights, I don't know about you, but I've never seen anything like what we have going on today! I still want to know what foreign country, what celestial enemy, who the hell cloned this president. He is our worst enemy! Total destruction of our laws and principles!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Voter For George Bush!

Gayle in MD
04-08-2006, 07:38 AM
LOL, well friend, the coming months will prove to be very interesting. I will say, it's a pleasure to watch Bush squirm, as his halo slips down around his panties, and his GI Joe outfit loses it luster! We are just seeing the tip of the iceburg, at present. We will see much more social unrest, public cries for impeachment, we are heading back to the Vietnam years, and all this started by a Yale history major!!! What did George Bush do in college, other than cocaine and pot?

I saw Joe Biden last night on Bill Maher, he was great, shows promise, straight talk, good solutions for the current problems, I'd like to see a ticket with both he and Kerry on it, or Biden and Murtha, we have plenty of good people on the democratic side, and they are looking more and more presidential in comparison to the republican crooks! There are quite a few in the Democratic party who I think could beat John McCain. Many possible forerunners. And the image of Abramoff in his black fedora and black trench coat, Bush in his MISSION ACCOMPLISHED GI Joe suit, Cheney with his shot gun aimed, Tom Delay's smiling mug shot, Libby in cuffs, right along side Bush holding hands with the Saudi Arabian Prince, if you could get all those shots on one side of a poster, and a big shot of bin Laden, laid back eating a big mack, next to the collapsing WTC Towers....well, you get my drift! The visuals are going to be something else.... They could win the election without speaking a single word, just pics! Sinking trailors, people on rooftops in New Orleans holding up help signs, illegals waving the Mexican Flags in the streets. I wish I was in charge of the graphics in the next two elections!

Love,
Gayle,.... still dry, but that could change! I don't want to engage in premature pants wetting! Going to save that for the impeachment trials, lol. When Laura smiles, nods and waves on her Nixonian march to the hellicopter, she'll be doing the ONLY thing she has done in eight years!

DickLeonard
04-08-2006, 11:12 AM
Gayle you don't think Laura will be tearing ala Mrs Alito.###$

Gayle in MD
04-08-2006, 11:37 AM
HA HA HA, nah, they'll be crying all the way to the bank. Impeachment will only get Georgie closer to his arab pay offs sooner!

If anybody ever deserved impeachment, this is it!

Love,
Gayle....

Qtec
04-08-2006, 11:44 AM
The way I see it? Apart from the small criminal element, most people come to the US in search of a better life. Does that make someone a criminal?
I understand and TOTALLY agree that that anyone working and living in a country should be inside the system and contributing to the common good. That being said, the only reason these people come to the US and stay is when they can make money. If nobody gave them a job[ illegal immigants], there would be no point in coming to the US.
Its easy to blame the poor immigrant for a problem that was deliberately created by successive Govts. The 'cheap labour'lobby must have some pull in DC because they can even overide the DHS. Despite the so called WOT , the US-Mex border still leaks like GW on truth serum! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Gayle in MD
04-08-2006, 11:51 AM
Ha Ha Ha, wow, you think it leaks THAT bad?! You're right, of course, these people are exploited in their own homeland, then exploited by big business over here. It's a disgrace.

As I have stated before, there should be hefty fines against those who employ illegals. They should not have to work for less than minimum wage, which should be much higher than it is, IMO. The cheap labor lobby in D.C. is republican, the K street project ousted all the Democrats! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Did Not Vote For George Bush! /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Vagabond
04-09-2006, 07:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Does that make someone a criminal?
Q <hr /></blockquote>

Yes they are criminals and any body defending them are aiding and abetting the criminals.Mexico and USA are seperate countries with boundaries and borders.

Chopstick
04-09-2006, 07:03 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The way I see it? Apart from the small criminal element, most people come to the US in search of a better life. Does that make someone a criminal?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

From my own observations, it is the opposite of the situation you describe. A very small percentage are honest hard working individuals that wish for a better life and to be a contributing member of our society. Most of them follow a set of vaules that can only be described as criminal. The theft and property damage alone generated by this mob goes into the billions every year.

Mexico and South America have more natural resources that we do. Why aren't those countries successful? The ideas and values that wrecked those countries are now here. If you don't believe it take a look at Miami. It has been virtually destroyed and has been trying to dis-incorporate. A major American city voting to eliminate itself. Who could believe this would happen? Does that sound like the work of a bunch of poor hard working immigrants just looking for a better life?

Qtec
04-09-2006, 07:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes they are criminals and any body defending them are aiding and abetting the criminals <hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, penalise the people who employ the illegals and its problem solved! And who emplys them? people with money of course. Recently, the mayor of NY [ I think] was asked to name a job that would be affected if the illegals were all sent back.
His reply was, " Well, for instance, who is going to cut the grass at the golf club?"

This whole immigration debate is a scam. ie Its a diversion. Bush knows that he can never get amnesty for illegals.

Q

Qtec
04-09-2006, 07:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Yes they are criminals and any body defending them are aiding and abetting the criminals <hr /></blockquote>

Like I said before, penalise the people who employ the illegals and its problem solved! And who emplys them? people with money of course. Recently, the mayor of NY [ I think] was asked to name a job that would be affected if the illegals were all sent back.
His reply was, " Well, for instance, who is going to cut the grass at the golf club?"

This whole immigration debate is a scam. Its a diversion. Bush knows that he can never get amnesty for illegals and any bill that gets passed will be a joke if people can still any just walk into the country and get employment,etc.

Q

Vagabond
04-10-2006, 05:01 AM
when Jimmy Carter was the president of USA he gave amnesty for millions of Mexicans and other Latinos

eg8r
04-10-2006, 05:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it? Apart from the small criminal element, most people come to the US in search of a better life. Does that make someone a criminal?
<hr /></blockquote> Figures, the way you see it is twisted and ignores the simple fact that they are breaking the law by being here. CROSSING THE BORDER ILLEGALLY IS WHAT MAKES THEM A CRIMINAL. Don't try and twist this into some sympathy for those looking for a better way of life.

[ QUOTE ]
Its easy to blame the poor immigrant for a problem that was deliberately created by successive Govts. <hr /></blockquote> It is easy for you to sympathize with these people but that does not matter. Which problem are you referring to because this discussion is about the problem we are facing when immigrants decide to take the law into their own hands and come to America illegally. We are not talking about any other problems, situations, living conditions, money-saved-in-the-bank, etc.

eg8r

eg8r
04-10-2006, 05:32 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Like I said before, penalise the people who employ the illegals and its problem solved! And who emplys them? <hr /></blockquote> This doesn't solve the problem. And if you were actually advocating the enforcement of laws, why not begin with enforcing laws with border security and INS. Your solution awards criminal behaviour if they and their employer are not caught.

eg8r

moblsv
04-10-2006, 06:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr>Your solution awards criminal behaviour if they and their employer are not caught.<hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

pooltchr
04-10-2006, 06:16 AM
ILLEGALS DO NOT EVEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO BE HERE!

Why would anyone even think they have any other rights????

Send them back where they came from. Stop them from crossing the boarder into the US

Give them NO RIGHTS. They haven't earned them!

I find it truely amazing that anyone can even begin to attempt to justify any other position. And the fact that our elected officials in Washington even find it necessary to debate the issue tells me just how fu***d up they really are.
Steve

moblsv
04-10-2006, 06:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Why would anyone even think they have any other rights????<hr /></blockquote>

IMO, the real problem isn't the illegals themselves but the mess we made by ignoring the problem for so long. Now many have anchor issues such as being married to citizens, having children who were born here, having been here for a decade, etc.

In principal I agree that illegal is illegal and they have no right to be here but just grabbing the bread winner from an established family and throwing him back into Mexico may not always be the best solution.

Qtec
04-10-2006, 07:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Vagabond:</font><hr> when Jimmy Carter was the president of USA he gave amnesty for millions of Mexicans and other Latinos <hr /></blockquote>

Are you sure?

[ QUOTE ]
from the May 16, 2005 edition - http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0516/p09s01-coop.html

Illegal aliens: Democrats stumped
By Froma Harrop
PROVIDENCE, R.I. - Hillary gets it. Hillary Clinton says she's against illegal immigration. And she would fine employers who hire illegal aliens.

Pundits say the Democratic senator from New York is using this hot-button issue to position herself for the 2008 presidential election. It's a way to hit Republicans from the right. Polls show huge majorities of both Republicans and Democrats oppose illegal immigration - and are frustrated that President Bush won't do a thing to stop it.

But this issue does not belong to the right. Or it shouldn't. Illegal immigration hurts most liberal causes. It depresses wages, crushes unions, and kills all hope for universal health coverage. Progressives have to understand that there can be little social justice in an unregulated labor market.

"Liberals are so confused on this issue," says Vernon Briggs, a labor economist at Cornell University and self-described liberal. "Immigration policy has got to be held accountable for its economic consequences."

Many Democrats used to get it. In 1964, President Johnson abolished the Bracero program, which brought in "temporary" farm workers from Mexico. Its demise let Cesar Chavez organize US farm workers. His union won some battles early on, but a new wave of illegal immigrants in the mid-1970s reversed that progress. The union barely exists today.

It's long been a felony offense for a foreign national to enter the United States illegally. And until 1952, it was also a felony to harbor an illegal alien. That's when farm interests had the law changed to take employers off the hook: Employing an illegal alien no longer constituted "harboring" one. This came to be known as the "Texas Proviso."

As factory jobs vanished and illegal immigration swelled in the 1970s, Jimmy Carter, a Democrat, sensed a growing crisis. Then came the flood of refugees from Cuba and Haiti - most claiming political asylum. Carter refused to give blanket amnesty. The refugees were taken care of in 1986, when Republican Ronald Reagan granted a blanket amnesty for 3 million illegal immigrants.

President Carter also tried to repeal the Texas Proviso. Congress stalled and instead set up a commission to study the matter. It was chaired by the Rev. Theodore Hesburgh, then president of the University of Notre Dame.

US immigration policy was "out of control," the panel announced. It minced no words: "The commission has rejected the argument of many economists, ethnic groups and religious leaders for a great expansion in number of immigrants and refugees."

Shortly thereafter, Carter lost his bid for reelection. Reagan became too busy cutting taxes for the rich to bother with the commission's recommendations. (Besides, isn't cheap labor another kind of tax cut?)

The cause was taken up by Sen. Alan Simpson (R) of Wyoming and Rep. Romano Mazzoli (D) of Kentucky. In 1986, they pushed through legislation that repealed the Texas Proviso. It established fines for employers who knowingly hire illegals. But there was a huge loophole: Employers did not have to check whether the documents presented by job applicants were valid or fake.

By 1991, America was in a recession. The economy had lost a million jobs. That year, the current president's father, George H.W. Bush, signed a law that raised annual legal immigration by 35 percent to 700,000. And it did nothing about illegal entrants.

Congress in 1990 had established another commission to study the problem. This one was headed by Barbara Jordan, a Democrat who had represented Texas in the House of Representatives. The Jordan Commission made excellent recommendations, which went nowhere. One would have required employers to make a single phone call to verify a job applicant's Social Security number. Even that was too much.

The rationale for the 1986 amnesty (and we've had seven categories added to it since then) is that we had been sending illegal immigrants mixed messages. After all, it had been previously legal for employers to hire them.

Nowadays, the messages aren't even mixed anymore. A cheap-labor Republican, George Bush won't enforce the employer penalties. He has a new amnesty program. And he vows to "match any willing worker with any willing employer." Hence the latest stampede at the southern border.

Sounds as if the Democrats have an issue. And if Senator Clinton can seriously address the problem in nonracial terms, she could march straight to the White House. Go for it, Hillary.

• Froma Harrop is an editorial writer for The Providence Journal. ©The Providence Journal. Distributed by Creators Syndicate, Inc.

<hr /></blockquote>


Q

Qtec
04-10-2006, 07:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Chopstick:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The way I see it? Apart from the small criminal element, most people come to the US in search of a better life. Does that make someone a criminal?

Q <hr /></blockquote>

From my own observations, it is the opposite of the situation you describe. A very small percentage are honest hard working individuals that wish for a better life and to be a contributing member of our society. Most of them follow a set of vaules that can only be described as criminal. The theft and property damage alone generated by this mob goes into the billions every year.

Mexico and South America have more natural resources that we do. Why aren't those countries successful? The ideas and values that wrecked those countries are now here. If you don't believe it take a look at Miami. It has been virtually destroyed and has been trying to dis-incorporate. A major American city voting to eliminate itself. Who could believe this would happen? Does that sound like the work of a bunch of poor hard working immigrants just looking for a better life? <hr /></blockquote>



[ QUOTE ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Supply-and-demand solutions
- David Sirota
Sunday, April 9, 2006


AMID ALL the rhetoric in the superheated immigration debate, many have forgotten the key question: Why?

Why do so many Mexicans want to come to America in the first place? The answers to this question revolve around the concept of supply and demand -- and they tell us about how to address illegal immigration and overcome the core economic challenges facing middle-class Americans.

Fact: Many Mexicans are willing to risk their lives to enter the United States illegally because they are desperate to find a better life. In supply-and-demand terms, the supply of jobs in Mexico that one can subsist on is far less than the demand for such jobs.

But that raises the next and deeper "why" question: Why is the supply of decent-paying jobs in Mexico so low? Therein lies an issue neither Democrats nor Republicans want to address, because it touches on public policies both have supported.

Fact: Both political parties have joined hands in recent years to ink trade pacts that have destroyed the Mexican economy and created a supply-and-demand imbalance there. The biggest of these was the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) -- a pact sold to the American people as a job creator here, and an economic development tool for Mexico. But, of course, the pact did not include any provisions to protect or increase Mexican workers' wages, workplace standards or human rights, thus all it did was open up a cheap labor pool for companies to exploit.

Fact: A decade after NAFTA's passage, America is still hemorrhaging the good-paying jobs that NAFTA was supposed to create. As for Mexico, the Washington Post's report on the 10-year anniversary of NAFTA told the story: 19 million more Mexicans now live in poverty than before the pact was signed. Similarly, former U.S. Labor Secretary Robert Reich points out, "Mexico's real wages are lower than they were before [NAFTA]." And because NAFTA included no provisions to force companies to improve Mexican working conditions, jobs that were created in Mexico still pay near-slave wages For instance, the Associated Press noted this week that "Many young [Mexicans] have manual jobs on minimum wage of $5 a day."

Time Magazine recently shed further light on the situation, reporting that , "Even when new jobs do appear, [Mexico's] unforgiving low-wage business culture -- the dark shame of Mexico's political and economic leaders, which NAFTA was also supposed to reform -- makes sure that they still often pay in a day what similar work would pay in an hour in the United States."

Not surprisingly, Mexican workers' demand for a better life hasn't gone away -- in economic terms, the demand is inelastic. And so that demand is looking for a job supply north of the border.

This is the supply-and-demand reality that no amount of emotional rhetoric can change -- and in that reality we can find the way to address illegal immigration: by stopping the demand instead of trying to block the supply. The Academy Award-winning movie, "Traffic," highlighted the perils of waging a drug war that only focuses on trying to block the supply of narcotics, rather than on eliminating the demand for them.

These same lessons can be applied to illegal immigration. The best way to stop illegal entry into our country from Mexico is to tamp down the demand by Mexicans to enter this country illegally. After all, no wall, no fence, no border security measure can be as effective as reducing the demand for entry. This means reforming our trade policy to include serious wage, workplace and human-rights provisions so that cross-border commerce actually improves the lives of Mexican workers to the point where they no longer feel the dire economic need to break our immigration laws.

Think about it this way: Had NAFTA lifted 19 million Mexicans out of poverty as promised instead of helping to drive 19 million Mexicans into poverty, you can bet the flood of illegal immigrants across our southern border would be a trickle instead of the flood it is today. To be sure, politicians are talking about amnesty or guest-worker programs to give workers some kind of legal status. But if those proposals do not come hand-in-hand with a reform of America's trade policies, they are destined to be what they have been in the past -- merely short-term, stopgap measures, not real solutions.

Until America's political leaders start making trade policy address the imbalance between the demand for good jobs and the supply of good jobs in Mexico, illegal immigration will continue to be a major problem right here at home.

David Sirota is the author of the upcoming "Hostile Takeover" (Crown Publishers, May 2006.
<hr /></blockquote>

Sound reasonable?
Q

Qtec
04-10-2006, 07:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Like I said before, penalise the people who employ the illegals and its problem solved! And who emplys them? <hr /></blockquote> This doesn't solve the problem. And if you were actually advocating the enforcement of laws, why not begin with enforcing laws with border security and INS. Your solution awards criminal behaviour if they and their employer are notcaught. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>


OMG. Typical eg8r double-speak Twighlight World logic! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Putting people in jail for robbing banks awards criminal behaviour if they dont get caught!

Q

Gayle in MD
04-10-2006, 12:01 PM
I agree. This problem is just another problem which has been exascerbated by George Bush, and his love of finding ways to get more money into the hands of the rich corporations, and continue his assault on the poor, middle class working American.

He's the one who went to Mexico right after he was elected and struck a secret deal with Fox! He's the one who has failed to address this problem at a time when open borders are particularly dangerous due to alQaeda, He's the one who wants amnesty, worker programs, ha ha ha, just another word for amnesty. If we can't even locate them, how the hell are we going to find out how long they've been here, or if they are law breakers.

Bush has totally ignorred everything the should have been done to safegaurd our borders, and our ports, and insure that terrorists counldn't get into this country. Instead of going to Iraq, we could have spent all that money making our country safer. I'd much rather have all those troops standing on our borders, with orders "Shoot To Kill" than to have them over in Iraq, loosing their lives, for a bunch of people who want to kill each other, and are lightyears behind the rest of the world in their thinking. Bush played right into the hands of North Korea, al Qaeda, Iran, China, and Russia. Look where we are now? Just think where we could have been if we had just gotten bin Laden, found the terrorist cells, improved our economy (No Deficit)and our military, built up our allies, and still been perched as THE SUPERPOWER, instead of being in debt to China, and over run with illegals who are dragging our economy down, and they do drag it down, no matter what Bush tries to tell you, the only people profiting from these illegals is the rich, the corporate rich, just like they are the only ones profiting from the war, and the tax structure.

Where is Lee Harvey Oswald when we need him????

I say impeach the SOB!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush!!!!

SpiderMan
04-10-2006, 02:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> The way I see it? Apart from the small criminal element, most people come to the US in search of a better life. Does that make someone a criminal?
<hr /></blockquote>

Hmm ... If a poor man robs you in search of a better life, does that make him a criminal?

SpiderMan

heater451
04-10-2006, 04:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Why is the supply of decent-paying jobs in Mexico so low? <hr /></blockquote>Catholicism? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif (Sorry---I couldn't resist. . . .)



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