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Stretch
04-16-2006, 05:30 AM
Hi all. Last weekend i had a good lesson taught to me. Early in the draw i got one of the best 8 ball players in the City. It was a race to 5 in 8 ball, alternating breaks. I finally wake up to see the score 4-0 for him. Although the score was horribly lob-sided i still felt good about my game because i was still playing well. The games he won, he won because of some unlikely scratch (on my part), or a nice kick that fluke hooked me back, or a runout that fell to a bad roll. Anyway i remember thinking that there was NO WAY i was going to be skunked by this guy, and i don't care who it is! So with that thought in mind i got into the 5th rack and WILLED myself through a tuff layout to get that first game. Then the second, then the third, then the forth to go Hill Hill! I was on fire! lol But then the axe fell. Because he had won the lag he had break for the final rack. Yep! he Broke and ran the board.

It dosn't matter wut you do in a match, who you play, whether you came from behind or sprinted to the finishline. when it comes down to the last rack for the match, haveing that break is HUGE! That's the power of the Lag. Not to mention a big boost if you can use it to get that first game under your belt.

I had a long wait for my b-side match so i workded on my lag. (something i hadn't done for a long time) and got it down cold for all my b side matches. Talk about stealing! everyone i played wanted to flip. I insisted on lag. So we'd lag, and i was walking away with the break because these guys can't lag worth a darn. And it served me well. Won the break advantage for the next 4 matches and well into the money before i finally fell.

Just a quick reminder to everyone that gets lazy and wants to flip for the break. Don't leave something as big as a break advantage to chance. Get that lag down pat and you'll end up winning a lot more matches. St.

tdurden87
04-16-2006, 11:13 AM
I was in a tournament too when a similar thing happened. In order to get 1st place, I had to beat a guy twice or else I got 2nd. Well he won the coin toss and broke and ran out. I certainly have no problem losing like that. I would much rather lose to someone without getting a shot at all rather than out-playing them and losing on a bad shot. Kind of makes me wish that they had done a lag instead of just fliping a coin.

slow_roller
04-17-2006, 11:21 AM
Any tips for the lag, or just practice, practice, practice?

theinel
04-17-2006, 12:06 PM
The lag is definitely an overlooked skill. I practice the lag a lot and have beaten many people, who are better players than I am, in lagging contests. In tournaments I always try to lag for break if possible but a lot of TDs force a coin toss to try to speed up play.

Congratulations on a great rally and I'm sorry to hear about being run-out on. It's one of pools weaknesses that in many games, especially hill-hill games, one player never even gets to compete.

Stretch
04-17-2006, 01:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote slow_roller:</font><hr> Any tips for the lag, or just practice, practice, practice? <hr /></blockquote>

I set the ball up on the head string, and use an open bridge, level cue, 3/4 cue ball high to get an instant naturally rolling cue ball. Adjust your weight by adjusting your draw back. You only need a three or four inch stroke to make this shot. It also helps to really envision the back rail touch from the standing perspective right through to the exicution.

You can start each practice with lineing up a bunch of balls on the head string and burning in the touch. Of course not every table is the same, so you'll always need to make small adjustments but if you can take the time to master your home table you'll have that basline to extrapolate from. Besides, it's a good stroke to know anyways. With back and forth wieght you can cut balls to the side pocket and come back with good weight. You can sinch any shot useing lag weight too. St.

Scott Lee
04-17-2006, 03:18 PM
Actually, the ability to lag the CB well has absolutely nothing to do with how long or short your backswing is. It is the ability to make a smooth transition from the backswing to the forward stroke; come to a natural finish position (where there's no elbow drop, and your tip is on the cloth and "some" distance past the CB...this could be 1/2" or 6"); and keep the speed of the stroke to a minimum (to be sure, for some folks, a shorter backswing will work, but it is not necessary). The other thing that I teach in every lesson, but is never mentioned here (except by me), is that the lag is the exact same speed necessary to pocket an OB with the CB from any distance. It shows up as the OB just falling off the end of the slate, into the pocket (or what many call "pocket speed"). This is true whether the CB &amp; OB are close together (under a foot apart), or the OB is table length away from the CB. If all you need to do is pocket the OB, then a lag is all that's necessary. Now, if you need to do MORE than just pocket the ball, a higher speed stroke will be needed to accomplish that objective. This is why we teach a 'numbered' speed control system, with 9 speeds (from lag to break)...instead of using arbitrary terms like 'soft', 'medium', or 'hard'!

Here's another way to practice a good lag speed swing: Place the CB 6-10" from the cushion on the short rail. Lay your cuestick on the rail, with no bridge hand to guide it, and holding the cue just by a thumb and finger, use a smooth backswing, and a slow smooth forward stroke through the CB. The weight of the cue (3x the weight of the CB) is enough to cause the CB to run up and down the full length of the table. This will effectively demonstrate how LITTLE swingspeed you need to accomplish a lag. Remember you must finish the swing, you can't poke at the CB.

Scott Lee

Bob_Jewett
04-20-2006, 10:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ... 3/4 cue ball high to get an instant naturally rolling cue ball. ... <hr /></blockquote>
It turns out that there is a better height to hit on the cue ball. If you hit at about 61%, the distance the cue ball travels is insensitive to the exact height you hit. This is the same sort of phenomenon that makes the half-ball carom angle insensitive to exactly how much ball you hit.

If you hit at 70% of the height of the cue ball (not 75%) the cue ball does start out rolling smoothly from the start, but if you hit a little higher, the cue ball will not go as far for the same arm speed, and if you hit a little lower, the cue ball will go farther.

DickLeonard
04-20-2006, 02:21 PM
Stretch, Willie Mosconi ran 4 straight 150 and out on Vern Peterson and Peterson asked Willie what he had to do and Willie told him to practice more and Vern said what do I have to practice for you keep running out. Willie said I mean practice your lag.####

Stretch
04-20-2006, 05:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Stretch, Willie Mosconi ran 4 straight 150 and out on Vern Peterson and Peterson asked Willie what he had to do and Willie told him to practice more and Vern said what do I have to practice for you keep running out. Willie said I mean practice your lag.#### <hr /></blockquote>

LOL great story #### /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

walt8880
04-20-2006, 06:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ... 3/4 cue ball high to get an instant naturally rolling cue ball. ... <hr /></blockquote>
It turns out that there is a better height to hit on the cue ball. If you hit at about 61%, the distance the cue ball travels is insensitive to the exact height you hit. This is the same sort of phenomenon that makes the half-ball carom angle insensitive to exactly how much ball you hit.

If you hit at 70% of the height of the cue ball (not 75%) the cue ball does start out rolling smoothly from the start, but if you hit a little higher, the cue ball will not go as far for the same arm speed, and if you hit a little lower, the cue ball will go farther. <hr /></blockquote>

Bob -

Do you have a technique for judging exactly where a 61% hit on the CB is or is this a theoretical explanation?

thanks

joepool
04-20-2006, 06:47 PM
I had a similar lag experience recently. I play in a weekly 9-ball tournament, and last month drew one of the toughest players in the field. Its only a race to five, and he wins the lag and runs four racks (two on the break), and, of course, leaves me totally locked up when I finally got to shoot. I lost 5-0.
So, I am thinkng to myself that I win the lag next time; so, at least, I will get a shot! Sure enough I draw the same player on the same table, and, I win the lag.
I break and don't make a ball! He runs the first two racks and leaves me locked up again.....finally he wins it 5-2 this time; at least I got a couple. Oh well....

Scott Lee
04-20-2006, 09:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote walt8880:</font><hr>

Bob -

Do you have a technique for judging exactly where a 61% hit on the CB is or is this a theoretical explanation?

thanks <hr /></blockquote>

walt8880...Take a striped ball and place the stripe horizontal to the table. Aim the top edge of your tip at the top edge of the stripe (not above it). The contact chalk mark will actually show up about 3/8" down from the top edge of the color. Aiming there will approximate the 61% that Bob is talking about, and will deliver the farthest roll, with a soft stroke.

Scott Lee

walt8880
04-20-2006, 09:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote walt8880:</font><hr>

Bob -

Do you have a technique for judging exactly where a 61% hit on the CB is or is this a theoretical explanation?

thanks <hr /></blockquote>

walt8880...Take a striped ball and place the stripe horizontal to the table. Aim the top edge of your tip at the top edge of the stripe (not above it). The contact chalk mark will actually show up about 3/8" down from the top edge of the color. Aiming there will approximate the 61% that Bob is talking about, and will deliver the farthest roll, with a soft stroke.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Scott -

Got it. thanks

Stretch
04-21-2006, 08:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ... 3/4 cue ball high to get an instant naturally rolling cue ball. ... <hr /></blockquote>
It turns out that there is a better height to hit on the cue ball. If you hit at about 61%, the distance the cue ball travels is insensitive to the exact height you hit. This is the same sort of phenomenon that makes the half-ball carom angle insensitive to exactly how much ball you hit.

If you hit at 70% of the height of the cue ball (not 75%) the cue ball does start out rolling smoothly from the start, but if you hit a little higher, the cue ball will not go as far for the same arm speed, and if you hit a little lower, the cue ball will go farther. <hr /></blockquote>

Thankyou for that information Bob. I'm sure i can use it to tweek my lag, and more efficiently handle the slow rollers. St.

Snapshot9
04-21-2006, 09:34 AM
Just a side note about lagging: You should practice lagging
(kicking) on 2,3,4, and 5 rails also to where your cue ball
comes to a stop on the last rail. Knowing the table speed on all these shots can be critical in a match.

Jal
04-22-2006, 12:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> ... 3/4 cue ball high to get an instant naturally rolling cue ball. ... <hr /></blockquote>
It turns out that there is a better height to hit on the cue ball. If you hit at about 61%, the distance the cue ball travels is insensitive to the exact height you hit. This is the same sort of phenomenon that makes the half-ball carom angle insensitive to exactly how much ball you hit.

If you hit at 70% of the height of the cue ball (not 75%) the cue ball does start out rolling smoothly from the start, but if you hit a little higher, the cue ball will not go as far for the same arm speed, and if you hit a little lower, the cue ball will go farther. <hr /></blockquote>

Thankyou for that information Bob. I'm sure i can use it to tweek my lag, and more efficiently handle the slow rollers. St. <hr /></blockquote>If Bob Jewett says you should sneeze before every shot, I'm taking a few extra hankies to the pool room. But I don't think the physics is that clear about where you should hit the cueball.

Bob is refering to the fact that the theoretical offset for getting the greatest cueball speed when it reaches natural roll is .24R above center. This is for an ideal elastic collision. But the fly in the ointment is that this is also the offset which is most sensitive to variations in stick speed.

Frankly, I think that your original suggestion of 3/4 of the ball's height (.5R above center) might be better, or at least as good. There you get some reduction of speed sensitivity and not too much of an increase in sensitivity to tip offset. About equaly good is just hitting centerball.

A more radical approach is to hit well below center. With that you get a major reduction in stick speed sensitivity, but you have to be very accurate/consistent with tip placement once you get the speed down - sensitivity to tip offset shoots way up.

Here are a couple of graphs which show the relevant parameters for an ideal elastic collision between stick and ball. The horizontal axis (b/r) is the tip offset as fraction of the cueball's radius. Positive values are above center, negative below. The equations are naive in that they are extended to well beyond .5R - ingnore these regions.

If I did the math right, the desired speed of the cueball just as it reaches the first cushion is 4.5 ft/sec for a nine foot table with a cloth speed of 100 (it doesn't matter too much what the actual value is) and a sliding coefficient of friction of 0.2. The stick speed sensitivity (dVc/dVs) is the amount of change in the ball's speed at the first cushion per unit change in the stick's speed.

The first graph is for a stick speed of, coincidently, 4.5 ft/sec. It shows the perfect lag occuring at centerball and .5R above center. The second is for the more radical approach with a stick speed of 7.2 ft/sec. The perfect lag occurs with an offset of .3R below center.

But as I said earlier, in my opinion, no offset seems to clearly stand out as the best one.

http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/gtech/4.5e.jpg

http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/gtech/7.2e.jpg

Jim

Bob_Jewett
04-22-2006, 06:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>... Bob is refering to the fact that the theoretical offset for getting the greatest cueball speed when it reaches natural roll is .24R above center. This is for an ideal elastic collision. But the fly in the ointment is that this is also the offset which is most sensitive to variations in stick speed.
... <hr /></blockquote>
I'm a little puzzled by this, since in all cases, the speed of the cue ball when smooth rolling sets in should be close to proportional to the cue stick speed. If you start from the speed where the cue ball makes a perfect lag for a given amount of draw/follow, I think for all cases a 1% increase in stick speed will cause close to the same error in lag distance. I can see how things might be different for an extreme draw shot, but if the cue ball is rolling smoothing when it hits the first rail, I would expect all shots to be pretty close on speed sensitivity.

yaffabernstein
04-22-2006, 07:25 PM
Should I practice the lag daily, is this worth my time. Do any pros do this? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Scott Lee
04-22-2006, 09:09 PM
yaffabernstein...ABSOLUTELY! Read my first post in this thread to better understand why! If for no other reason, a practiced lag can win 80-90% of the time, over a coin flip, which is 50/50 at best. This means you win the right to break first, which is an advantage.

Scott Lee

Jal
04-23-2006, 10:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>... Bob is refering to the fact that the theoretical offset for getting the greatest cueball speed when it reaches natural roll is .24R above center. This is for an ideal elastic collision. But the fly in the ointment is that this is also the offset which is most sensitive to variations in stick speed.
... <hr /></blockquote>
I'm a little puzzled by this, since in all cases, the speed of the cue ball when smooth rolling sets in should be close to proportional to the cue stick speed. If you start from the speed where the cue ball makes a perfect lag for a given amount of draw/follow, I think for all cases a 1% increase in stick speed will cause close to the same error in lag distance. I can see how things might be different for an extreme draw shot, but if the cue ball is rolling smoothing when it hits the first rail, I would expect all shots to be pretty close on speed sensitivity. <hr /></blockquote>I can't quite follow your argument, but you are right. If you figure the error in the stick speed as a percentage of the stick speed, the sensistivity is constant for all tip offsets. Lacking empirical evidence to the contrary, I think this is the fairer way to do it. The derivative dVc/dVs still varies with offset as indicated in the diagrams, but it's not the right way to look at it since the required stick speed for a perfect lag also varies with offset.

So I'll concede that hitting at the offset you recommended is the optimal one. Thanks for prompting me to look at this in a different way. And sorry for the misdirection.

Jim