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View Full Version : BUSH SAYS....."I'M THE DECIDER."



Gayle in MD
04-18-2006, 08:39 AM
What a totally ignorant JERK! Did anyone see his "I'm keeping Rumsfeld" tirade this morning? What a collosal NERVE! What a complete, RIGHT IN YOUR FACE A$$HOLE!!!! We lost twice as many troops this month as last month. Rumsfled IS doing a lousy job! Can someone please explain to me what "Rebuilding the Military" is supposed to mean? The descriptions I have read about Rumsfelds so called "Rebuilding" have to do with using fewer troops to perform greater combative missions. Isn't that HOW this insurgency got so powerful in the first place? Too few troops?

Three of the retired Generals who are calling for Rumsfeld's resignation, are Generals who were on the ground in Iraq, and were responsible for huge portions of the war torn areas in Iraq, along with other major responsibilities, and also had to deal directly with Rumsfeld. They are highly respected men, with long and distinguished careers in the Military.

George Bush has one HUGE set of balls to get out in front of the cameras, in the midst of such obvious failure, and deceit, on so many levels, and make the kind of statements he made today. "I'M THE DECIDER" What kind of grammar is that? He sounds like he's in kindergarten! He's the Decider alright, that's WHY we're in the mess we're in right now! Does this man have ANY humility??? Has he no clue at all what a total F-UP he is? He said this morning that he read the headlines, well then, doesn't he know that the majority of us STRONGLY disapprove of his performance. MAN OH MAN, his condescending attitude knows no limits! Who the hell does he think he is, GOD? Hey, the bigger they come, the harder they fall!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Did Not Vote For George Bush....

Deeman3
04-18-2006, 09:05 AM
Gayle,

It sounds like you might be a tad disappointed wiht President Bush's remarks. If so, don't hide your emotions behind that meek language, let us know what you really think. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Deeman
No longer supporting Bush, looking for a Latino leader...

Drop1
04-18-2006, 09:09 AM
Did he also say "I'm the way,the truth,and the light" Rumsfleds won't last a month.

DickLeonard
04-18-2006, 09:15 AM
Gayle I thought I had solved the Immigration problem and the war problem by making the Illegal Immigrant having to serve 5 years in the service thereby filling the jobs that no one wants. That of a Serviceman, the Righteous Right pretends to be for the War effort but they won't step forward to fill the slots, so we have National Guardsman and Reservists having their tours extended. It has always been that way the Republicans are for War they just have better things to do [ala Dick Cheney and George Bush]than serve.

USA Today ran an article on new medical procedures used in treating the injured in Iraq. New bandages instead of sewing the wounds. The victum mentioned was a widower with two young children. What in Hell was he doing in Iraq in the first place. He had better things to do at home taking care of his family. Instead he was fighting in a War being run by Incompentence.####

wolfdancer
04-18-2006, 10:15 AM
No longer supporting Bush [ QUOTE ]
No longer supporting Bush <hr /></blockquote> No longer supporting Bush

Dee, say it ain't so.....I heer'd that Ed was taking a hundred in singles each day, and passing them out to the homeless; learning to become a liberal. An I heard Steve has put his entire Jesse Helms memorabilia collection, up fer sale on EBay.
But I thought that while the band was still playing, and the lights were still on, and Captain Smith was at the helm, saying " damn the icebergs, full speed ahead" you'ld be among the last to abandon ship, even though it was tilting dangerously right...(if'n you don't mind me using the Titanic as a metaphor for the present dangerous course, that Bush has steered us into)
As GWB would say....we're just taking on a little water, but I'm still in charge here

Qtec
04-18-2006, 10:24 AM
LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

That was so 'purrty'.

Dman cant be a GOPer - there are all in jail, under indictment or in the WH. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q

Deeman3
04-18-2006, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Dee, say it ain't so..... <hr /></blockquote>

Wolfdancer,

I warned all you guys I would eventually flip flop as I get closer to my golden years. As I have expressed many times, I want my time on the public dime. Except for a few more years of relatively small income, I'll not have to bear any more tax burden as I've paid on almost all I have put away. The rest is no longer reachable by the U.S Government and I say, "Get those taxes up there where they belong in nose bleed territory." For too long the people have suffered under the immoral capitolists pigs.

Redistribute the money as no man should have two cars until everyone has one. (The Corvette belongs to Deewoman)

Child molestation is not a crime. It is love and it is high time you guys get on board with the judges in this country. N.A.M.B.L.A. is just a bunch of misunderstood guys. Celebrate their diversity, not focus on their trivial faults. Don't be so narrow minded.

Embrace your inner Karma, love the Muslim and don't take his feelings toward you as negative. After all, it was improper invasions in the 1200's that brought all this back upon us.

Welcome your southern neighbors like family as they only want a better life. The solution was so utterly simple, just pay everyone $150 an hour and all will be solved. Health care, offer it free to everyone regardless of origin. After all we must have plenty if plastic surgery is the number one elective item in California. German has a simple requirement of someone just having to utter "Asylum" in any language to get in. It won't hurt us. Look at how well Germany is doing. English as ouor official language, rubbish. If the Japanese can learn our language we can all earn a couple of dozen more. Konnen wir Nichts?

Let's go forward on to that one world government, what's to fear? Que could then vote in our election and cut and paste his way to an American passport. We get rid of the death penalty and won't ever have to participate in a war again. Really, this is looking better than ever. Don't fret, if we have problems, the ACLU can defend us. (Maybe it will be the UNCLU but what the heck?)

Open that border, Mr. Bush, tear down that, ugh, river...

Let gays marry. Celebrate gay pride with all their accomplishments in history. Oscar Wilde, Boy George, Bill Tilden, Jeffery Dalhmer, John Berkowitz, that hairdresser....

Let all people marry as many and as diversly as they please. Call it Marriage, let the Christians find another word like, Missionarying to substitute for marriage. A man can have as many woman and sheep as he can support.

I want a leader this time I can predict, one that will cave in much quicker than they do now. One that will be able to say, "This will not stand." many, many, many times during his/her tenure but still keep us all away from conflict of making the French feel unloved. Ja suis American. Kiss up and keep it tight, that's should be our new motto.

Let's do away with those silly crosses at Arlington, the "In God we Trust" on the money. I recommend in "The Beltway we trust". Tax those Christians until they go out of business. Remove all references to law that is tracable to the bible and encourage the Muslims to "finish the job" in Israel......

Let's as well halt all accountability in schools for the teachers and students. I know this ahs already been done but there is so much more to do. Let them stay home and not be subjected to the right wing "Party Line" in school.

Outlaw Fox News as if we need to hear it, it would be on CBS or NPR.

Lastly, let's get Hillary in office, why wait until the election. The Republicans stole the elections anyway from our hapless, completely defenseless Democrats. Just impeach GWB and get her in there, her agenda is my agenda. God (sorry) she is a great woman, I'd almost say a "Woman's woman." Honest, intellegent and loads of integrity.

Let's get this going. I'm not afraid to stand up and say, "Comrades, it is now or never. We will not be afraid to be labeled communists and left wing nuts." In the end, we will return the property to the people and the rights of the party will be providing all that we need.

Deeman
Lenin was right....

Deeman

nAz
04-18-2006, 11:46 AM
Dee I'm am worried about you and my other conservative friends... you guys are really taking a beating over that clod in the White House. I think i will jump ship and join up with you guys, i always enjoyed the under dog position.
Let me just google the net for something positive about our commander in chief...

hondo
04-18-2006, 11:55 AM
Right on, Dee. I agree with everything you say except
that bs about the borders.
.................................................. .
Wolfdancer,

I warned all you guys I would eventually flip flop as I get closer to my golden years. As I have expressed many times, I want my time on the public dime. Except for a few more years of relatively small income, I'll not have to bear any more tax burden as I've paid on almost all I have put away. The rest is no longer reachable by the U.S Government and I say, "Get those taxes up there where they belong in nose bleed territory." For too long the people have suffered under the immoral capitolists pigs.

Redistribute the money as no man should have two cars until everyone has one. (The Corvette belongs to Deewoman)

Child molestation is not a crime. It is love and it is high time you guys get on board with the judges in this country. N.A.M.B.L.A. is just a bunch of misunderstood guys. Celebrate their diversity, not focus on their trivial faults. Don't be so narrow minded.

Embrace your inner Karma, love the Muslim and don't take his feelings toward you as negative. After all, it was improper invasions in the 1200's that brought all this back upon us.

Welcome your southern neighbors like family as they only want a better life. The solution was so utterly simple, just pay everyone $150 an hour and all will be solved. Health care, offer it free to everyone regardless of origin. After all we must have plenty if plastic surgery is the number one elective item in California. German has a simple requirement of someone just having to utter "Asylum" in any language to get in. It won't hurt us. Look at how well Germany is doing. English as ouor official language, rubbish. If the Japanese can learn our language we can all earn a couple of dozen more. Konnen wir Nichts?

Let's go forward on to that one world government, what's to fear? Que could then vote in our election and cut and paste his way to an American passport. We get rid of the death penalty and won't ever have to participate in a war again. Really, this is looking better than ever. Don't fret, if we have problems, the ACLU can defend us. (Maybe it will be the UNCLU but what the heck?)

Open that border, Mr. Bush, tear down that, ugh, river...

Let gays marry. Celebrate gay pride with all their accomplishments in history. Oscar Wilde, Boy George, Bill Tilden, Jeffery Dalhmer, John Berkowitz, that hairdresser....

Let all people marry as many and as diversly as they please. Call it Marriage, let the Christians find another word like, Missionarying to substitute for marriage. A man can have as many woman and sheep as he can support.

I want a leader this time I can predict, one that will cave in much quicker than they do now. One that will be able to say, "This will not stand." many, many, many times during his/her tenure but still keep us all away from conflict of making the French feel unloved. Ja suis American. Kiss up and keep it tight, that's should be our new motto.

Let's do away with those silly crosses at Arlington, the "In God we Trust" on the money. I recommend in "The Beltway we trust". Tax those Christians until they go out of business. Remove all references to law that is tracable to the bible and encourage the Muslims to "finish the job" in Israel......

Let's as well halt all accountability in schools for the teachers and students. I know this ahs already been done but there is so much more to do. Let them stay home and not be subjected to the right wing "Party Line" in school.

Outlaw Fox News as if we need to hear it, it would be on CBS or NPR.

Lastly, let's get Hillary in office, why wait until the election. The Republicans stole the elections anyway from our hapless, completely defenseless Democrats. Just impeach GWB and get her in there, her agenda is my agenda. God (sorry) she is a great woman, I'd almost say a "Woman's woman." Honest, intellegent and loads of integrity.

Let's get this going. I'm not afraid to stand up and say, "Comrades, it is now or never. We will not be afraid to be labeled communists and left wing nuts." In the end, we will return the property to the people and the rights of the party will be providing all that we need.

Deeman
Lenin was right....

Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-18-2006, 12:00 PM
Me too, Naz. It's almost too easy anymore. Dee hides
his embarrasment behind witty repartee &amp; that other
guy rarely responds anymore.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> Dee I'm am worried about you and my other conservative friends... you guys are really taking a beating over that clod in the White House. I think i will jump ship and join up with you guys, i always enjoyed the under dog position.
Let me just google the net for something positive about our commander in chief... <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-18-2006, 12:13 PM
Dee, we are constantly looking for fresh ideas
in education. How can we make our schools more
" accountable"? I've been teaching for 29 years
and am now reduced to " teaching the test".
Creativity and open debate and free thinking are
gone. My students have 8 classes a day and will
need 26 credits to graduate. And yet " no child left
behind?"
Maybe one day we'll catch up with Japan: kick the
dumb asses out early on &amp; strive to have the highest suicide
rate among teenagers in the world.

Gayle in MD
04-18-2006, 12:38 PM
BWA HA HA HA HA...good one! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
04-18-2006, 12:40 PM
I'm tryin', Im tryin'...LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
04-18-2006, 12:43 PM
Agreed! I think that's a great idea, but maybe we should save them for Iran. I really am starting to think that this nut, (Bush) actually IS dumb enough to attack Iran. Bush and Rumsfeld, dumb, and dumsfeld.

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush!

Deeman3
04-18-2006, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Dee, we are constantly looking for fresh ideas
in education. <font color="blue"> Why would you look for fresh ideas in school? Apparently, what you are doing is working much better than what worked in the "old days". </font color> How can we make our schools more
" accountable"? <font color="blue"> Why would you want more accountability? The Teachers Union has already said you can't fire teachers so I guess there are no problems. </font color> I've been teaching for 29 years
and am now reduced to " teaching the test". <font color="blue"> What do you really mean by that? I mean, how was it so much different in our day? </font color>
Creativity and open debate and free thinking are
gone. <font color="blue"> Why would creativity be gone? We know that certainly the raw materials (the Students)are products of our more enlightened society and should, I would think, be more creative than their predecessors. </font color> My students have 8 classes a day and will
need 26 credits to graduate. And yet " no child left
behind?" <font color="blue"> It has been a long time but I don't remember going to less classes when I was in school or when my kids were in school. Are you saying we need less hours of classroom instruction? If so, I'm all for that. But what about the creativity? Is that not what you have asked for and received over the years, more freedom of expression. Are you saying you were more free to express your opinion when you were in high school? I don't remember as much freedom as I remember discipline and respect for my teachers. Remember, that was form the old Deeman. I'll begin to remember it differently now, I'm sure. </font color>
Maybe one day we'll catch up with Japan: kick the
dumb asses out early on &amp; strive to have the highest suicide
rate among teenagers in the world. <font color="blue"> Isn't the suicide rate high in every phase of Japanese life, businessmen, housewives, etc.? and is it not higher in drug addicts and dentists and alcoholics? Is it necassary to have a non-competitive environment to assure survival of the students? Your the expert, I'm just asking? Are the students less prepared than you or I were? Does that have anything to do with moral decay or is it just that our teachers are not as qualified? No offense here but do the teachers bear any responsibility for the crisis in education? Has the budgets of the schools not expanded as a percentage of our income over the last half century (not the last 5 years but over more time) and has that not cured the problem? We are always told more money will fix the problem, will it? Did it?

I was never taught creationism in school, were you? I remember standing through a lot of pledge of allegences and a few prayers and, although I was agnostic at the time, I don't remember being deeply offended by the prayer, just bored. So, what's the problem and how will we liberals fix it now? I say we open up the treasury and spend our way to excellence. What do you think? </font color> <hr /></blockquote> /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Deeman

wolfdancer
04-18-2006, 02:49 PM
Now i'm not accusing you, unnerstand....but I suspect you have broken into party headquarters, and stole our whole platform for the next election.
And I object your linking of Big Bill Tilden, with Jeff D.
Jeff took the phrase "eat me" to heart, but Bill only misinterpretted "love,15"
What's little known about Bill, is he was one of the first water conservationists....refusing to take showers after his matches. And ...which hairdresser????
It's kind of odd that all the things the Birchers warned us about ....are happening....

wolfdancer
04-18-2006, 02:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Let me just google the net for something positive about our commander in chief... <hr /></blockquote>
nAz, don't waste your time....damn leftists control the inner net,maybe even the outer net.. and write all them nasty things about ole GWB.
Why thar's ever Marxists here trash talking bout our Prez...
It's like "The Persecution and Assassination of Jean-Paul Marat as Performed by the Inmates of the Asylum at Charenton Under the Direction of the Marquis de Sade"

Deeman3
04-18-2006, 03:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Now i'm not accusing you, unnerstand....but I suspect you have broken into party headquarters, and stole our whole platform for the next election. <font color="blue"> What are you talking about? I'll build you a p[arty platform if there's any democrats left with enough spunk to carry it out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>
And I object your linking of Big Bill Tilden, with Jeff D.
Jeff took the phrase "eat me" to heart, but Bill only misinterpretted "love,15" <font color="blue">Funny! Jeff was not such a bad guy, right? At least he thinned the herd a little, something George Carlin has been advocating for years. </font color>
What's little known about Bill, is he was one of the first water conservationists....refusing to take showers after his matches. And ...which hairdresser???? <font color="blue"> All of them.... </font color>
It's kind of odd that all the things the Birchers warned us about ....are happening.... <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> The John Birchers were just complainers like us. They fall into the same coward class I put the Klan, any secret society that Bush and Kerry and Kennedy belonged to and those kids we used to throw balls at in gym class.</font color>


Deeman
Maybe it was unfair to include Oscar Wilde

Gayle in MD
04-18-2006, 04:54 PM
Hey Naz, don't be so soft about these righties, they deserve all of it, they voted for Bush. Personally, I think their taxes should go up just for that! After all, just look at all the debt we're all in because they didn't recognize a lyin' jerk with no common sense. Yeah! And don't forget how puffed up and brazen they all were about claiming to be the only party who could "WIN" elections, HA HA HA, little did we know, they pulled same $&amp;&amp;t, different state, in 04, not to mention how they bought the whole "Fight them overthere, so we don't blah blah blah..."

As for goggling for positive information on Bush, just turn on Fox News, the propaganda network of the White House, or pick up a copy of the National Review, or the Weekly Standart, both full of false information on Bush's "PROGRESS"....aka Iraq civil war, and national debt crises...just remember, the majority of Democrats didn't vote for this war!!!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush!

hondo
04-19-2006, 08:56 AM
1.You are starting with the premise that teachers are
at fault for the problems. Is it possible you are wrong?
2. Fire the teachers. Millions of EXPERIENCED recent
college grads are itching to get into teaching.
3. You must be much younger than I thought.
Most baby boomers had 5 classes &amp; a study hall &amp;
needed 16-17 credits to graduate. As far as teaching
the test, what test? We had SAT &amp; ACT &amp; that was it.
4. Who has time for creativity? We're strictly
performance- based , baby. They score high on state
testing; we must be doing a good job. My kids have
too many requirements to take electives &amp; we don't
have enough teachers to teach them anyway.
5. We say the pledge every day. We pray silently as
Christ instructed in the Bible. My county is Republican,
Bible Belt but my kids are so disgusted with Bush
they don't want to say the Pledge.
6. Visit a classroom. See what's going on. Get involved.
Talk is cheap. The teachers from our days couldn't take
the bull [censored] that goes on today. I &amp; most teachers
I know bust our ass trying to have the kids learn
and all we get is crap from people who have no idea
what they're talking about.

Qtec
04-19-2006, 09:28 AM
[ QUOTE ]
BUSH SAYS....I,m the Emperor, I mean the King...ahem, cough, cough...I mean the President. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
04-19-2006, 10:22 AM
Hi Hondo,
My friend, I just want to say that I know exactly where you're coming from. IMO, our teachers are the hardest working, most undervalued and underpaid people in our society. We have several teachers and in our family, and my daughter, son-in law, my husband and I, are all very involved in my grand-daughters school, and her education, so I know and have seen first hand what Bush's so called No Child Left Behind BS is doing to our educational system. It is a disaster!

The main problem with teaching our kids in this country is that people are more interested in making money, and competing with the Jones's than they are in their children's education. While I am a feminist, I don't believe in both parents working while their children are young. IMO overseeing children, their health, education, and overall development, emotionally and otherwise, is a full time endeavor. It's THE most important responsibility and pleasure that we will ever have in our lifetimes. It isn't the teachers, it's the parents, and this administration which claims to have a high priority on education, but follows through by cutting spending for education. More Bush rhetoric! In many cases parent's priorities are not what they should be. I know some parents who are able to pull it off, but in long run, they still miss a great deal of the most rewarding and valuable experience in life.

My daughter LOVED her career, and I was never more proud of her than when she made the decision to stay home with her little girl. It is a sacrifice financially, but certainly well worth giving one's complete attention and devotion.

People don't go into teaching for the money. If I had my way, teachers would make more money than the greedy CEO's of the world! My hat goes off to you, and to all others who teach our children. Considering how many of them are raised, it isn't easy having to deal with children from homes where they haven't been taught how to behave, and how to respect their elders, and the problem exists at all financial levels of our society. I feel sorry for the children of today, and can certainly appreciate the differences between a teaching career today, and what it was like when I was growing up.

My highest regards to you Hondo!

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
04-19-2006, 11:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> 1.You are starting with the premise that teachers are
at fault for the problems. Is it possible you are wrong? Yes, I could be wrong.<font color="blue"> No, I didn't start with that assumption. I just asked if it's possible they are the problem. As you say, I have not been involved in public schools in a long time. My kids went to school in Europe and Asia.</font color>
2. Fire the teachers. <font color="blue"> Where did you read that?</font color> Millions of EXPERIENCED recent
college grads are itching to get into teaching. <font color="blue"> Again, you turn my question into a claim that I am asking that we fire teachers. I said the union won't allow that. Am I wrong? There were two public school teachers fired in NYC last year. Surely there are more that are not competent or are you saying all are? </font color>
3. You must be much younger than I thought.
Most baby boomers had 5 classes &amp; a study hall &amp;
needed 16-17 credits to graduate. <font color="blue"> Yes, my school was more difficult than some others. </font color> As far as teaching
the test, what test? <font color="blue"> You are the one that said you teach the test. I was just wondering what you mean. </font color> We had SAT &amp; ACT &amp; that was it.
4. Who has time for creativity? We're strictly
performance- based , baby. <font color="blue"> So, this is a republican thing? Performance based measurements that stiffles creativity. </font color> They score high on state
testing; we must be doing a good job. <font color="blue"> Is that all you are measured on? </font color> My kids have
too many requirements to take electives &amp; we don't
have enough teachers to teach them anyway. <font color="blue">So, there are no longer electives? </font color>
5. We say the pledge every day. We pray silently as
Christ instructed in the Bible. My county is Republican,
Bible Belt but my kids are so disgusted with Bush
they don't want to say the Pledge. <font color="blue">
6. Visit a classroom. See what's going on. Get involved.
Talk is cheap. The teachers from our days couldn't take
the bull [censored] that goes on today. <font color="blue"> That's really what I was asking. What is going on? I don't have kids that will ever be in the public school system so my exposure, like you say, is limited. </font color> I &amp; most teachers
I know bust our ass trying to have the kids learn
and all we get is crap from people who have no idea
what they're talking about. <font color="blue"> I am sorry if I offended you or any hard working teachers. Really. I was just saying that there seems to be no accountability for what many, other than me, say is a poor educational system. It may be better than ever and I hope it is. However, if we are grinding out great scholars, why are we falling further and further behind in international ranking? This has been happening for 40 years, so Bush may not be the total answer. What is?

I know many teachers get extra training and spend their own money on items for students. Why is this not helping? Is it just a thing money can fix?

Hondo, y9ou jumped on everything I said and accused me of going after teachers. I think I went after, mostly, the educational system. Instead of telling where I was wrong, you keep saying I am making uninformed judgements. Why would you not let me know the real reasons for failure or let me know if, indeed, everything is fine.

You say teachers in our day didn't have to put up with what you do today. What is that? I mean, is it more than not enough money? Are there challenges that those old teachers dod not have to deal with?

I could just "ra-ra" for all teachers like Gayle but tell me, what needs to be done? Is that a fair question or do you guys just want a one sided debate? </font color> <hr /></blockquote>


Deeman

hondo
04-19-2006, 12:03 PM
Thanks, Gayle. I appreciate your comments. There
are certainly a lot of problems in education but
at least in my region it's not the fault of the teachers.

hondo
04-19-2006, 12:24 PM
Problems today? Drugs, computers, tv, parents who don't
care,drugs,pressure, nintendo &amp; games like that,
promiscuity, drugs.
The test is called the Westest &amp; yes, that's pretty
much how we're evaluated.
With 27 credits needed over 4 years &amp; limited teachers,
no, there aren't many electives.
every year we get the new brainstorms from the state
department &amp; the government. People who have no idea
what's going on in the classroom.
The students have as little respct for teachers as
the public has &amp; I doubt the old teachers could
put up with it. Instead of bringing back prayer
to the classroom, how about corporal punishment?
You say you were just asking questions, not implying
any criticism. Well, you could have fooled me.
The implications were clearly there. I do appreciate
you admitting you have no idea what's going on.
That's more than you know who would ever admit.

nAz
04-19-2006, 12:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hey Naz, don't be so soft about these righties, they deserve all of it, they voted for Bush. Personally, I think their taxes should go up just for that! After all, just look at all the debt we're all in because they didn't recognize a lyin' jerk with no common sense. Yeah! And don't forget how puffed up and brazen they all were about claiming to be the only party who could "WIN" elections, HA HA HA , little did we know, they pulled same $&amp;&amp;t, different state, in 04, not to mention how they bought the whole "Fight them overthere, so we don't blah blah blah ..."

As for goggling for positive information on Bush, just turn on Fox News, the propaganda network of the White House, or pick up a copy of the National Review, or the Weekly Standart, both full of false information on Bush's "PROGRESS"....aka Iraq civil war, and national debt crises...just remember, the majority of Democrats didn't vote for this war!!!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush! <hr /></blockquote>

WTF where are my buddies Ed and Steve to back me and Deemon up?

Gayle I'll just make up stuff as I go along Ala Bush, since Google came up short on any good news.

First off Hondo get your asre back to AZB and thank your god for having a fair and balanced poster like Secaucus fats there to keep you and your ilk in line!

BTW Gayle you need to get your head out of those fairy tale books you are reading and have a good look at reality!
I am sick and tired of you lefty wimps dragging down our great leader. rather then critique every move that he makes you should get on board and support him. MY GOD! this is war time sacrifices have to be made! He is leading this great Nation under unprecedented hardships, making the tough but obvious decision.
Do you have any answers? you sit there with your "i know better then the President attitude" but i have yet to read from you or your Demofag friend a single solution to anyone one problem our great nation "may" have?

all i have to say to you... and remember this well your either with us or against us!

Deeman3
04-19-2006, 03:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> Problems today? Drugs, computers, tv, parents who don't
care,drugs,pressure, nintendo &amp; games like that,
promiscuity, drugs. <font color="blue"> We see the very same distractions in the workplace in many instances. It does seem young people have less focus than in the past and we struggle to get their attention as well. Amazingly we do see remarkable exceptions and I might throw the remark out there that these energetic young people seem to come from all social levels but are, at least in my view, grounded in basic values.</font color>
The test is called the Westest &amp; yes, that's pretty
much how we're evaluated. <font color="blue"> That seems unfair but I swear, I didn't vote for that. Maybe GWB did. Was it not this way 5 years ago? </font color>
With 27 credits needed over 4 years &amp; limited teachers,
no, there aren't many electives.
every year we get the new brainstorms from the state
department &amp; the government. People who have no idea
what's going on in the classroom. <font color="blue"> That's a shame as we see less government intervention as of late. Maybe these same breaucrats that once haunted business have been pointed to the schools. </font color>
The students have as little respct for teachers as
the public has &amp; I doubt the old teachers could
put up with it. <font color="blue"> or would they? I remember my teahcers using whatever subject material they wanted and some were down right quirky but we would never have questioned their authority, not a chance.</font color> Instead of bringing back prayer
to the classroom, how about corporal punishment? <font color="blue">I think I'm on your side here. I don't advocate any tolerance in bad behaviour. Don't get mad but did GWB help do away with corporal punishment? Can't we bring this back? </font color>
You say you were just asking questions, not implying
any criticism. Well, you could have fooled me. <font color="blue"> Hondo, You have found many things I have brought up when my only accusation was that teachers seem difficult to fire, even when needed and my asking if there was any accountability with the teachers. You are being much more defensive than I believe my comments warrant. </font color>
The implications were clearly there. <font color="blue"> I think only if you look for them. I made many comments and may, in some circles, have to right to do that. I would hope you have found me to be open to these discussions and learning others people's perspective in the past. We may never entirely agree on political solutions but I feel I have changed my view given reasonable arguments, not just the "I hate all republicans and their ilk" speeches. </font color> I do appreciate
you admitting you have no idea what's going on. <font color="blue"> That's the reason I asked. We hear about school violence, disrespect for teachers and a general apathy about the problem but few actual comments from teachers in the fray. </font color>
That's more than you know who would ever admit. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I may be wrong but I don't see anyone in any of the political parties making this an issue when they have the war, gas prices and the economy to harp on. Is it possible that who ever gets in will just let the situation roll on as it has been or do you really see the possibility of change? See, you have at least educated me on this subject a little and will make me question what we are doing. </font color>

Deeman

Gayle in MD
04-20-2006, 03:39 AM
BWA HA HA HA HA..... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif...Hey Naz, I can't wait to meet you, you're a riot!

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
04-20-2006, 03:51 AM
Deeman, I'm proud to give a good RAH RAH RAH to teachers anytime. While your original post doesn't come right out and say it, the insinuation I got was that teachers are less than sufficient, and not being able to fire them is a big part of the problem, that more "Liberal" spending for education is foolish, and our kids are behind compared to many other countries in the world because they aren't praying enough? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what I got. Is that where you were coming from, or not?

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush....The worst president in the history of this country...

Gayle in MD
04-20-2006, 04:02 AM
LMAO... /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif The Great Divider, uh,... decider

/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in MD
04-20-2006, 04:10 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif This has got to be a Wolfdancer top ten! One of the funniest posts ever, ...

Gayle in Md....wondering how I'd ever get through Bush World without Wolfdancer, and all the rest of my commie liberal friends here on CCB, lol.

Deeman3
04-20-2006, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Deeman, I'm proud to give a good RAH RAH RAH to teachers anytime. While your original post doesn't come right out and say it, the insinuation I got was that teachers are less than sufficient, and not being able to fire them is a big part of the problem, that more "Liberal" spending for education is foolish, and our kids are behind compared to many other countries in the world because they aren't praying enough? <font color="blue"> Partly right. I don't think students do not pray enough. I do question the accountability of the teachers and studcents, some of the very same issues on the student side that Hondo brought up. I do question the long term liberal permissiveness in the schools and the investments that have, so far, seem to come to nothing. Maybe the investments should be decided by the teachers. Of course, if you consider the NEA the core of the teachers, we probably will not agree on who would decide how money is spent. </font color> Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what I got. Is that where you were coming from, or not? <font color="blue"> Now, if Hondo wants corporal punshment, he is dead on. Why did we get rid of it? He seems to think GWB did this. I recall neglect in the public schools for many years. Although in fairness, as I said, I was involved in overseas schools during the 17 years I was away.

It seems the left would have use beleive that everything was fine under the democrats. I believe we lost control during each administration long before "no child left behind" became the latest political football.

My problem is the permissiveness of the system toward students and the apparent helplessness of the teachers. Is this because or despite the NEA? I don't know for sure. However, In almost every job, with the exception of breaucrats, teachers and politicians most of us have some accountability for success. Hondo says his entire rating is tied up in a single test score. I would think, if the teacher's union was doing what it should, there would be a much better system for accountability for teachers, students and administrators. Do I lay the permissiveness at the door ofliberals, yes. Are you saying it was not them who challenged teacher certification in the 1980's? Did they not propose "gradeless evaluations", social promotion, etc? Do you really think this came fomr the right?</font color>


Deeman
Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush....The worst president in the history of this country... <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-20-2006, 08:25 AM
Yeah, that's what I thought was being implied also,
Gayle. From his last post, maybe that's not what he
intended.




<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Deeman, I'm proud to give a good RAH RAH RAH to teachers anytime. While your original post doesn't come right out and say it, the insinuation I got was that teachers are less than sufficient, and not being able to fire them is a big part of the problem, that more "Liberal" spending for education is foolish, and our kids are behind compared to many other countries in the world because they aren't praying enough? Correct me if I'm wrong, but that is what I got. Is that where you were coming from, or not?

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush....The worst president in the history of this country... <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-20-2006, 08:34 AM
The helplessness that teachers feel comes from
state &amp; federal ignorance, not from the NEA.
Most of the animosity toward the NEA comes because
of their not supporting Bush. Other than trying
to protect members' rights, which ALL unions do,
how exactly have they undermined education in
America? They have very little power actually.

Deeman3
04-20-2006, 09:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote hondo:</font><hr> The helplessness that teachers feel comes from
state &amp; federal ignorance, not from the NEA.
Most of the animosity toward the NEA comes because
of their not supporting Bush. Other than trying
to protect members' rights, which ALL unions do,
how exactly have they undermined education in
America? They have very little power actually. <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">
Maybe the NEA is just trying to protect their member rights but, in effect, they are a protector of bad teachers as well as good teachers, if you will admit there might be bad teachers, the NEA will not.

I beleive there was animosity towards the NEA long before Bush was even a politician.

Exactly how they undermined the education in the U.S? Well, during the 1980's they opposed any testing for teacher certificaion. Now, if you are a hairdresser in most states you much be certified. The fact that many of us are practicing engineers requires certification and periodic re-certification as we may design items that impact the general safety and health of the public.

It would seem teachers would have the potential to impact student's futures for a great deal of future time. Now, if teachers had to show basic working knowledge of the subjects they teach, that might be a good thingm, in my mind. Why would most teachers not feel the same. As I understand, the testing was very basic and the vast majority of teachers would have no trouble showing competence.

Some may say (not me) that if teaching has no performance characteristics other than the results of student's test scores, perhaps the skill of teaching is not as critical as our society once thought it was.

So, I did have a football coach in high school that taught a math class. He could not have taught math at a third grade level. It's o.k., that happens on occasion but he probably should not have been teaching the subject. So, even as I argue that the NEA may enable poor teachers, it was not always good in the past as well. This coach went 11-0 so the math thing was never an issue. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

I think you are very wrong. The NEA is a very powerful organization with large political clout. I think if they took seriously the state of the American educational system more then the rights of the few poor teachers, they could move mountains. Why should good competent teachers, such as yourself, have to watch poor teachers and unruly students get all the grease?

Teachers should unite, not just top get better wages but to force the dunderheads in Washington to wake up. My guess it that most of the problms are not just recent political appointees but a system of breaucrats that don't apppreciate the problem any better than a smuck like me does.

If one good teacher would write a nice expose on all this, maybe a grass roots movement would support them. Right now, all the public sees (from any news source) is piles of students who don't seem to care any more about their future than we did. The difference is we had adults who cared and taught us the values we would need to survive.

Deeman
I owe my old teachers more than I could ever repay...</font color>

hondo
04-20-2006, 10:34 AM
There's been more exposes written by teachers
than you could ever imagine.
NEA DID NOT oppose teacher certification in the 80's.
There was a movement to have a national test to
re-certify veteran teachers. The NEA questioned
the fairness &amp; accuracy of such a test.
I know I was worried. I'm considered one of the
best teachers in my county but it had been years
since I had been in college. I teach English literature,
composition, &amp; grammar. I had no idea what was going
to be tested &amp; they were talking about testing us in
ALL areas. I &amp; many teachers would go down the crapper.
People half-ass read something &amp; then make definitive
judgements about it.
Every time the govenor proposes a raise for teachers
the public thinks we got the raise.
Most people think we work 9 months &amp; get paid for 12.
Nothing but ignorance.
About the only bad teachers I've encountered over
the years are coaches who are leading their teams
into the state tournament every year. They're
usually given quite a bit a leeway in the classroom.
I'm sorry, Dee. At least in my area I don't see all
these bad teachers. I do see bad parents. The kids
who excel in school get plenty of support at home.
The best schools are those that have strong community
support.
If you're in an area where the teachers suck, Dee,
lead a movement to get rid of them. Then try to
replace them. There's thousands of grads out there
dying to teach 150 apathetic ( at least a lot of them)
students for $35000 a year while hearing how incompetent
they are by people who haven't stepped foot in a
classroom for 40 years.

Deeman3
04-20-2006, 11:09 AM
No, I have been told the teachers are not the issue. I believe you. Was that not the reason we had the discussion?

I guess there is really onthing that can be done. I certainly don't know the answers and, perhaps, by the near death of this as a political isse, noone cares enough about it so that whatever measures (the ones none seems to know) are really needed will never be attempted.

If I offended you, I did not mean to do so. I know this is a sore spot for you and I do appreciate your letting me know your feelings and knowledge on the subject.

I do set foot in schools several times a year in supporting many local and regional career days, speaking to students about industry and interaction with many of those administrators you describe but I had only gotten their perspective, not that of a teacher.

Again, my experience as a comsumer of education was only for one year as my youngest daughter attended high school in Grosse Pointe, Michigan as a senior when we returned from overseas. She found the work very simple compared to the German High School and was surprised that all the kids wanted to do was get drunk and party. In my meetings with the school teachers there, I didn't notice any that were incompetent or even seemed unprepared to teach. My comments were more form a perspective that I gathered from news stories and other conversations over the years. This was not Fox News but a variety of sources. If I have taht opinion, maybe others do as well. I might even assume that each time a governor announces a pay raise, it goes through. You never get that news in the first 5 sections of a paper and it probably won't make the news.

I would have to admit your point that there are probably many more bad parents than teachers. I asked a man I was interviewing a few weeks ago, what grade his children were in and he did not know! As dumb as I am, i can tell you the homeroom teachers of both my kids through every grade they attended. In Germany, we were required to be at the teacher meeting nights, both parents.

My best to you.


Deeman
I always pucker up weeks before my engineering recertification....

Gayle in MD
04-20-2006, 12:32 PM
Deeman,
Would you be so kind as to post for me the "Liberals" you speak of, the ones who spent or threw away money on the school system, and did away with dicipline in the schools, and negatively impacted our education system.

Personally, I don't recall any president who came into office and put forth his own federal educational program which impacted teachers and their ability to teach students according to traditional testing methods. The No Child Left Behind program, is a failure, as far as I am concerned. Also, who on this forum has stated that they hate all republicans?

I must say, with truly no intention to offend you, I find it hilarious to read about someone who thinks we need more praying by students, and at the same time thinks we need more corporal punishment in our schoold. If anyone ever laid a hand on my kids, or grand-daughter, they'd have me to deal with, and it wouldn't be pretty, I can tell you. No one has the right to strike another human being, and nothing is worse for children than undiciplined, dicipline, JMHO.

Waiting with interest to learn who these liberals you speak of might be.

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush!

Drop1
04-20-2006, 12:51 PM
Say Hu?

Deeman3
04-20-2006, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Deeman,
Would you be so kind as to post for me the "Liberals" you speak of, the ones who spent or threw away money on the school system, and did away with dicipline in the schools, and negatively impacted our education system. <font color="blue"> Kennedy, Carter, all the way back to Humphrey, a proud and well known liberal tradition. Have you forgotten this?</font color>

Personally, I don't recall any president who came into office and put forth his own federal educational program which impacted teachers and their ability to teach students according to traditional testing methods. The No Child Left Behind program, is a failure, as far as I am concerned. <font color="blue"> I agree, this program like all the others is a failure. </font color> Also, who on this forum has stated that they hate all republicans? <font color="blue"> Gayle, you show this in most of your posts. You actually expect us to think you don't hate republicans? You have bashed Bush, Rice, the Republican Senate, everyone....</font color>

I must say, with truly no intention to offend you, I find it hilarious to read about someone who thinks we need more praying by students, and at the same time thinks we need more corporal punishment in our schoold. <font color="blue"> I only question if getting prayer out of school added to our values, not that it should be instituted again. </font color> If anyone ever laid a hand on my kids, or grand-daughter, they'd have me to deal with, and it wouldn't be pretty, I can tell you. <font color="blue"> Well, this pretty well answers the question of while liberals wanted discipline out of the schools doesn't it. </font color> No one has the right to strike another human being, and nothing is worse for children than undiciplined, dicipline, JMHO. <font color="blue"> That's the problem, you want the teachers to negoiate with the kids? Your very liberal position here actually puts kids in more danger than the spanking. Lack of discipline has caused the out of control students to become violent, therefore posing a much greater danger than the occasional spanking did. By the way, Hondo supports corporal punishment. You are saying you support the teachers, talk is cheap when you take away their only means of control. Remember, negoiation with students did not work, ala the French model. </font color>

Waiting with interest to learn who these liberals you speak of might be. <font color="blue"> Most are not as far left as you but I still think Kennedy, and the entire liberal side of the democratis party bear much of the blame. Face it, you are a liberal, not only a liberal but far left. You claim to be a moderate but you are only moderate on immigration, gun rights and the economy only when it suits your political purpose. If Bush had not blown billions on useless programs you would be clamering that he needed to blow billions on other useless programs. You only complain about the money being spent because it is Bush.</font color>


Deeman

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush! <hr /></blockquote>

wolfdancer
04-20-2006, 05:41 PM
Dee, Gayle does not hate all republicans....just the elected ones.....
It's a fine line between maintaining discipline in the classroom, and doling out corporal punishment....teachers can't instill values in pupils, if those same values are not reinforced in the homes.
My sixth grade teacher...Sister Mary Leo, or "Leo the Lion-Hearted" as we called her, did not feel any constitutional constraints about putting a hurt on you. I think her "bat" speed, a yardstick, approached major league standards...I kind of still wince, when I think about her....but talk about an orderly classroom....
Teachers today are working under dangerous conditions in some school districts....

Deeman3
04-21-2006, 05:52 AM
Exactly, and does that dangerous environment not result from permissiveness both at home and in the schools. Back in the day, there were still a lot of parents who would not discipline their kids. However, these kids were assured of a fairly coded discipine at school and we didn't (at least I didn't) see the outrageous behaviour we hear about now.

I just don't think the occasional paddleing was child abuse and it did make sure there was order. Now we give up that order bacause Gayles kids (or grandkids) are little angels and would never disrupt a class. Give me a break! You take all authority away from teachers and what do you get? Students who do not focus, teachers who have to tolerate insubordination and a bunch of little democrats in training (That last part was a joke).

My point, teachers did instill values in kids even when there was little at home. In 16 years of education I never remember a student insulting a teacher. I know, not as many were bedding the students back then as well. But there was discippine and I don't think at a very high social cost.


Deeman
some people would pay to have that nun beat them now! Is the world upside down?

DickLeonard
04-21-2006, 06:47 AM
Deeman we Democrats knew it was a joke democrats follow the rules it seems that Republicans have trouble following the rules. This could also be a Joke.####

Gayle in MD
04-21-2006, 07:23 AM
Deeman,
Would you be so kind as to post for me the "Liberals" you speak of, the ones who spent or threw away money on the school system, and did away with dicipline in the schools, and negatively impacted our education system. Kennedy, Carter, all the way back to Humphrey, a proud and well known liberal tradition. Have you forgotten this?

I don't recall that Kennedy, or Carter.....(Humphrey was never president) ever enacted their own educational system, as Bush has done. And, BTW, the man he originally appointed as Education Secretary was proven later, before he was ousted, to have jury rigged the numbers in Texas, (Yeah, Texas, I'm sure you must have read about this) to give false positive results. This is just one of the problems with his system. Even the educationally Challenged children, are counted in the points system that schools have to deal with, a ridiculously impossible system, I might add, not to mention that the entire system invited cheating on the numbers, such things as counting those students who fail the testing, and hence become drops outs, encouraged to become drop outs in the interest of "Points" for the school, as students who have moved.

Personally, I don't recall any president who came into office and put forth his own federal educational program which impacted teachers and their ability to teach students according to traditional testing methods. The No Child Left Behind program, is a failure, as far as I am concerned. I agree, this program like all the others is a failure. Also, who on this forum has stated that they hate all republicans? Gayle, you show this in most of your posts. You actually expect us to think you don't hate republicans? You have bashed Bush, Rice, the Republican Senate, everyone....
If that is your standard for "Hate" then this country is full of "Haters" . This habit of yours, reading extremes into other's opinions, is annoying. As I have stated, Hate isn't part of my philosophy, but as the majority of Americans, I STRONGLY DISAPPROVE of George Bush, and the republican, law breaking, bribe taking, crooked Republican Congress, which protects our law breaking president by blocking every single investigation of the illegal, immoral, tactics used by the Buish Administration. So do many other Americans. Hate, has nothing to do with it, and YOOU know that. You only use such tactics to irritate. Do YOU approve of the indicted Republicans...I know there are many many to keep track of, but what is your overall opinion? Strongly disapprove?

I must say, with truly no intention to offend you, I find it hilarious to read about someone who thinks we need more praying by students, and at the same time thinks we need more corporal punishment in our schoold. I only question if getting prayer out of school added to our values, not that it should be instituted again. If anyone ever laid a hand on my kids, or grand-daughter, they'd have me to deal with, and it wouldn't be pretty, I can tell you. Well, this pretty well answers the question of while liberals wanted discipline out of the schools doesn't it. No, it doesn't begin to answer it, one would have to study psychology, then they would understand the results of violence against children, but perhaps, the righteous right, doesn't understand the results of violence, or care about it, since it seems to be always their preferred solutions for everything from controling students, to solving international differences. Guess they spend too much time reading the ignorant solutions listed in the bible? No one has the right to strike another human being, and nothing is worse for children than undiciplined, dicipline, JMHO. That's the problem, you want the teachers to negoiate with the kids? Your very liberal position here actually puts kids in more danger than the spanking. Lack of discipline has caused the out of control students to become violent, therefore posing a much greater danger than the occasional spanking did. Man Oh Man!!! It would take a whole team of Psychiatrists to straighten out your thinking, lol. Amazing how a so obviously intelligent person such as yourself, could make such a totally uneducated statement regarding human nature. By the way, Hondo supports corporal punishment. You are saying you support the teachers, talk is cheap when you take away their only means of control. Remember, negoiation with students did not work, ala the French model. I have all the respect in the world for Hondo, but I would venture to say that a discussion between Hondo and I regarding corporal punishment would prove to be agreeable, and that our opinions are probably closer than you insinuate. WE all know, that the problem children usually come from violent homes, where striking is the first reaction to misbehavior, and I dare say, there is tremendous proof from decades long study that corporal punishment does not solve problems, to the contrary, it creates problems, lasting problems which manifest themselves into serious emotional problems for which society later pays a great price. Hence, the Timothy McVeys of the world. Physical violence is wrong, always.

Waiting with interest to learn who these liberals you speak of might be. Most are not as far left as you but I still think Kennedy, and the entire liberal side of the democratis party bear much of the blame. Face it, you are a liberal, not only a liberal but far left. You claim to be a moderate but you are only moderate on immigration, gun rights and the economy only when it suits your political purpose. If Bush had not blown billions on useless programs you would be clamering that he needed to blow billions on other useless programs. You only complain about the money being spent because it is Bush.

Gee Deeman, do you complain at all about political people? Do you ever critisize them, ever? Does that mean you hate them? HATE??? Have you no political agenda? Do you know the difference between spending billions and putting this country into dangerous, unprecedented debt, to the tune of thirty thousand dollars per person. I suppose that is fine with you, but you don't think you are far right? AH HA HA HA...

I'm glad to see that you fall right into the same category that the majority of Americans wonder everyday how the hell you can still support this administration. Fortunately, we will have another opportunity in November, and I dare say, you righties on here will become very disappointed in the results, htat is if the Democrats can prevent Karl Rove and company from more election fraud, but you righties don't care about that, right? Only that your party win at any cost, legal or not.

Peace be with you, Deeman....




Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush!

Gayle in MD
04-21-2006, 07:51 AM
Exactly, and does that dangerous environment not result from permissiveness both at home and in the schools. Let's not confuse dicipline with violence, if you will? Back in the day, there were still a lot of parents who would not discipline their kids. However, these kids were assured of a fairly coded discipine at school and we didn't (at least I didn't) see the outrageous behaviour we hear about now. Yes, those were different times, wonderful times, IMO, and the kids of today face much more pressing issues, apathetic parents, for one, who have traded the experience of parenthood, for more money, for one thing. I don't know where you have been living, Texas? Bushworld? But here in Maryland, things are still like they always were, the more affluent areas, where there are more Mother's at home, and more educated parents, have schools without dicipline problems. Some things never change.

I just don't think the occasional paddleing was child abuse and it did make sure there was order. The problem with that is that SOME people who happen to be teachers, as in all other segments of society, don't know the difference between paddling, and abuse, and unfortunately, as we often hear in the news, also don't know the difference between having friendly relations with their students, and taking them to bed. There are ill people among us. Do we want to give them the right to hit our children, and hope they can keep it in perspective? I don't think so. Diciplined dicipline, attention and devotion to teaching, order in the classroom, all very acheivable without violence. Now we give up that order bacause Gayles kids (or grandkids) are little angels and would never disrupt a class. Give me a break! That's exactly right, all well adjusted, successful loving people, who were NEVER yelled at, and were NEVER paddeled. Just plenty of love, attention, and a good example in the home. They were THE priority, hence, our connection with them kept them straight, the emotional connection which is missing between the children of many of the parents of today. All this began, IMO, when Mothers started dropping their babies off at six weeks of age back in the sixties, for more money in their pockets. You take all authority away from teachers and what do you get? Students who do not focus, teachers who have to tolerate insubordination and a bunch of little democrats in training (That last part was a joke).

My point, teachers did instill values in kids even when there was little at home. In 16 years of education I never remember a student insulting a teacher. I know, not as many were bedding the students back then as well. But there was discippine and I don't think at a very high social cost. REally? Gee, I remember some boys who actually got into fights with teachers, usually it was the gym teachers! They were expelled, of course, something that is frowned unon, which is one of the problems, IMO. Some children don't deserve to remain in school. It is a priveledge, and when abused by students from homes without dicipline, they should be expelled, for the benefit of the other well behaved kids who are there to learn. Again, we need to make a distinction between violence, and dicipline, for they are certainly two completly different things, and violence by its very natrue, is the antithesis of dicipline.


Deeman
some people would pay to have that nun beat them now! Is the world upside down

In my Catholic school the boys were made to kneel on dried beans! In those days Nuns were either angels, or sadists, and there was nothing in between. But we won't get into the problems of Catholocism....LOL.

Qtec
04-21-2006, 07:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Exactly, and does that dangerous environment not result from permissiveness both at home and in the schools. <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman, have you ever seen the program about the English nanny who goes to peoples homes and helps them with their unruly children?
Education starts in the home but the fact is, millions of people dont know how to interact with thier kids in a positive manner. Training a kid or a dog /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif requires the same set of principals.
The basic rules are simple, be consistant. No is no. Always.
The other rules are ,keep to a routine and reward good behaviour. The fact is, many people dont know how to teach their kids and the kids take control. [If you see these kids shouting and screaming and being violent to their parents,- and these are all middle-class homes- imagine the same situation for other kids in less fortunate conditions.]

Kids want everything and they want it yesterday.
Rap music- although I love my TuPac- has a lot to answer for IMO. This whole Bitch thing ie women are stupid and purely sex objects-and Respect thing - has people shooting each other for making eye contact. Poeople are getting killed because they apparently 'dissed' someone, sometimes when they were'nt even aware of it. Its crazy.

The other culprit is Capitalism, in which we teach our kids that a 'dog eat dog' attitude is actually a virtue! 'Greed is good' etc. People like KT who rip off the gulable and the desperate are actually admired by some. Making money transcends all moral values it seems.

BTW, the Nanny never uses corpral punishment. Most violent offenders were beaten when they were young, mostly by their fathers. Violence is passed on thru the generations. Its not the way.

Q

Deeman3
04-21-2006, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> &lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Exactly, and does that dangerous environment not result from permissiveness both at home and in the schools. <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman, have you ever seen the program about the English nanny who goes to peoples homes and helps them with their unruly children?
Education starts in the home but the fact is, millions of people dont know how to interact with thier kids in a positive manner. Training a kid or a dog /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif requires the same set of principals.
The basic rules are simple, be consistant. No is no. Always. <font color="blue"> Didn't work with Saddam did it? </font color>
The other rules are ,keep to a routine and reward good behaviour. The fact is, many people dont know how to teach their kids and the kids take control. [If you see these kids shouting and screaming and being violent to their parents,- and these are all middle-class homes- imagine the same situation for other kids in less fortunate conditions.]

Kids want everything and they want it yesterday. <font color="blue"> Yes, refer to my quote above! </font color>
Rap music- although I love my TuPac- has a lot to answer for IMO. This whole Bitch thing ie women are stupid and purely sex objects-and Respect thing - has people shooting each other for making eye contact. Poeople are getting killed because they apparently 'dissed' someone, sometimes when they were'nt even aware of it. Its crazy. <font color="blue"> Hey, they are just expressing their opinion. It is perfectly o.k. to devalue women if you are doing it for artistic reasons on the left. </font color>

The other culprit is Capitalism, in which we teach our kids that a 'dog eat dog' attitude is actually a virtue! 'Greed is good' etc. People like KT who rip off the gulable and the desperate are actually admired by some. Making money transcends all moral values it seems. <font color="blue"> Q, you are going to have to get over the fact we are capitolists and not communists. We already took that vote and decided that we don't want you preferred form of government, at least most of us. While greed can be bad, the competitive engine that drives our free economy has been much more successful than the alternative. </font color>

BTW, the Nanny never uses corpral punishment. Most violent offenders were beaten when they were young, mostly by their fathers. Violence is passed on thru the generations. Its not the way.

<font color="blue"> Q, You fail the see that there is a difference in brutal beatings at the hands of insane parents and spanking. True, there are ways that are as effective as spanking, in the hands of skilled parents and educators. In reality, I never had to spank my kids after about age 3 as they learned mild discipline very early. You can tell I was never spanked /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif as my parents were Christian Scientists but did sepnd more resourses and time than most families think their offspring is worth.All that being said, I still believe there is a place of spanking or other forms of mild corporal punishment as most will never accumulate the parenting skills to avoid it. Jeffry Dahlmer was not a canabal because he was spanked in school. If that were true, we would have had millions of him in the 1950's and 1960's. When you equate parental torture with schoolhouse spanking, you are being intellectually dishonest.</font color>

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
04-21-2006, 08:26 AM
Gayle,

I think we can all agree that abuse by teachers or parents is not what any of us are looking for.

I guess the Maryland Catholic schools were already more liberlized JK than we were in the south. Even our toughest tough guys wouldn't have even considered attacking a teacher.

You are right, students who can't be controlled should be ejected from the schools. You might agree that the ACLU would be right there trying to get them back in school. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif There are some people/students/prisoners who simply can't be salvaged. You have to cut them out of the hear.

In the same vein, we were never tortured by nuns or anyone else. Noone was made to neal on beans. Of all the punishment I received at school as well as my fellow students, it was by and large fair and effective. On the downside, I never got to sleep with Mrs. Madden.

Gayle in MD
04-21-2006, 08:27 AM
You are more than welcome, friend, and nor it is the fault of teachers in my areas either. Just last evening while shooting in my league, I sat with a sixth grade teacher from another county, and we talked all evening about the devasting consequneces of "No Child Left Behind" .... the very worst thing that has ever happened to education in this country, no doubt, just like all of Bush's other policies! I find it infuriating that he put this program into operation, and turned right around and cut funding which in and of itself removes any possibility for any result but disaster! Typical George Bush!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush!

Gayle in MD
04-21-2006, 08:46 AM
Just for clarification, those fights were later, in public school, where due to my scores, I was able to transfer and graduate early, and also go to school with boys, which was eversomuch more fun! I recieved a great basic education in Catholic school, however, it took years into my adult life to undo the religious damage, but I managed, LOL. Not having to look at statues full of thorns and spear gashes, and feel guilty about it everyday was a very liberating improvment! lol.

My point is that giving teachers permission to use corporal punishment does not take into account that some teachers, as in all other segments of society, are not well adjusted, and it is an invitation for abuse, to say the least. Also, Q is right, abuse only leads to more abuse, and many people are unable to see the difference between a little spanking, and physical abuse, hence our many abused children. Violence, in my world, atleast, is unacceptable. How I wish the rest of the world could see things that way!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush~!

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
04-21-2006, 10:03 AM
That's why the principal should dole out the paddling. One individual, instead of each and every teacher, makes the abuse factor rather nil. I totally feel we are creating bad kids WITHOUT corporate punishment...sid

Deeman3
04-21-2006, 11:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> That's why the principal should dole out the paddling. One individual, instead of each and every teacher, makes the abuse factor rather nil. I totally feel we are creating bad kids WITHOUT corporate punishment...sid <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Wow, Sid and I agree on something! Watch out Necy, I'm comin home...

I know Did will probably agree we need to paddle more adult women as well. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif</font color>


Deeman
I'll start it off with Angelina Jolie, crap, I forgot Deewoman is lurking....

Gayle in MD
04-21-2006, 11:06 AM
Hi there kiddo,
Sorry Martin, but I'm not sure I understand you, whether you mean creating bad kids, because of no corporal punishment, or in spite of no corporal punishment, but ...

As a parent, if any of my kids, and we raised four(We have only one of our own, as I believe in zero population growth) My daughter, and Jim's three brothers, but if any of them had ever been unruly in school, or became a dicipline problem, I would expect the school to call me about it, not dole out any kind of physical punishment. I don't believe in hitting children, animals, or adults, under any circumstances. Physical violence is not the way of intelligent people. Spanking, is as bad as anything else, as far as I'm concerned. If a parent, or teacher, can't control youngsters, without getting physical, SOMETHING is very wrong with the intelligence of the adult involved, imo.

As parents, for example, we should be able to acheive the respect of our toddlers long before they become children, without spanking or hitting them. The same should be true in a school system. If children can't behave, then they should be sent home, or in the case of older high school kids, they should be expelled from school. Just for the record, I don't believe in yelling at kids, either. When one must raise their voice in order to communicate, one is a poor communicator, or beset by some other emotional problem.

In the case of children who have emotional problems, then they need psychological help, not hitting, yelling, or any other form of degrading treatment. I really hate to think what would have happened to anyone who ever put a hand on one of my kids! They would have ended up in court, no question!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I didn't Vote For George Bush!

hondo
04-24-2006, 08:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> That's why the principal should dole out the paddling. One individual, instead of each and every teacher, makes the abuse factor rather nil. I totally feel we are creating bad kids WITHOUT corporate punishment...sid <hr /></blockquote>


Tap! Tap! Tap! Sorry, Gayle, but I don't think we're
going to find common ground on this one. I can't
help but feel that if some of these spoiled rotten
trouble makers would have been spanked when they
were younger they would have turned out differently.

eg8r
04-24-2006, 09:14 AM
Besides the rest of your B.S post, I found this part amusing... [ QUOTE ]
Fortunately, we will have another opportunity in November, and I dare say, you righties on here will become very disappointed in the results, htat is if the Democrats can prevent Karl Rove and company from more election fraud, but you righties don't care about that, right? Only that your party win at any cost, legal or not.
<hr /></blockquote> LOL, you don't give your own party any credit. Based on your sad view of your own party, the only way they can win anything is if the Reps let them. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif What a joke. You come on this board and tell us how stupid the "righties" are, how dumb all their decisions are, how absolutely smart the left is, and your entire party does not have one single person that can outsmart Rove. Rove owns your entire party and unless he says it is ok you will just sit on the outside looking in. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
04-24-2006, 09:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Other than trying
to protect members' rights, which ALL unions do,
how exactly have they undermined education in
America? They have very little power actually. <hr /></blockquote> This is not very true in Florida. Not too awful long ago, the union Pres was indicted for laundering or something. He was living in a million dollar home. His offices were decked out sparing no expense. He was driving the nicest of cars and wearing the nicest of clothing. Those working directly for him were living the same life, while all the same time, those that mattered most were having to spend their own money on glue sticks and construction paper. When the state turned down the request to raise the teacher's pay (that was overturned), all hell broke loose. How could those evil politicians steal that money from the teachers. We heard it all, the teachers were already underpaid, they were having to buy supplies for the students, and now they could not get a simple raise. It was all the politicians fault. However, you never heard a report in the news about a teacher who finally stood up to the union and asked them for accountability. The union was living fat and happy in their million dollar homes driving $80k plus vehicles all while those they protect were slumming it.

The union in Florida has a ton of control. I have a few friends that have decided teaching was more important than making a few bucks. It didn take more than a year or two before my salary doubled my buddies because the teacher's pay in Florida sucks. They love what they are doing, however they are the first to tell you, the unions suck them dry (help keep pay low). The main thing they seem to be thankful for with respect to the unions is that their jobs are safe. Even if they teach at failing schools, their job is safe. Even if they were the reason the kids were doing horrible, their jobs are safe. The union has a great amount of control and all teachers know it, they just wish the union heads cared a little more about education and less about their wallets.

eg8r

eg8r
04-24-2006, 09:48 AM
[ QUOTE ]
WTF where are my buddies Ed and Steve to back me and Deemon up?
<hr /></blockquote> Big project at work forcing lots of unpaid OT. No time to defend. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Snapshot9
04-24-2006, 10:22 AM
First, let me say although you have good arguments, I will defer to someone that knows better than all of us in saying, 'Spare the rod, spoil the child'.

When I was in Junior High, disrespect for your teacher was not tolerated at all. And 'swats' were only administered by the
Football coach, who was known to raise more than one kid off the floor with his paddle with the holes in it. Screams were heard echoing through every hall, and every single kid there was on their best behavior for at least 3 days afterward.

Your 'no spank' rule for kids has already proven to produce a bunch of elitest snobs who tend to think they are smart enough to get away with anything, hence the rise in White collar crime that we have experienced in this country.

Bush is not the instigator for ALL our countries problems, as he has several advisors and experts that TELL him what to do everyday. Many senators and congressmen/women have just as much REAL LIFE power, if not more, as Bush does. Plus, the
facts going back will show, that many things showing up now, were started by people in power before Bush. I liked Bush's
ability to make decisions, but have become disenchanted with his priorities for those decisions. To me,

1) You take care of your family and loved ones first.
2) You take care of your friends and neighbors second.
3) You take care of your Fellow Americans next. (country)
4) You extend your helping hand to others as needed.

We are giving away our middle class in this country, along with the 'engine' (manufacturing, technology) with
outsourcing, NAFTA, CAFTA, that drives our country and makes
it unique in the world.

We are doing a good job for becoming an educated specialized
3rd world country in the future. Our country can not be all things for all people, and this is exactly where priorities come in. Most of our laws and principles are a result of the bible, but in today's world, if you lobby hard enough, you can change that Is it good? No, I don't think so. It's like staring at your steering wheel while trying to cross a busy intersection, you catch a last second glimpse before the crash. Do I like what is going on in the world today? No, I do not, or the 'course' we seem to be on, but it is possible that we may be on a road for a date with destiny, one that was set long before we ever came to be born.

hondo
04-24-2006, 10:53 AM
Most of what you said is sad but true, Snapshot.
And I very much agree about no spanking producing
elitist snobs.



<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Snapshot9:</font><hr> First, let me say although you have good arguments, I will defer to someone that knows better than all of us in saying, 'Spare the rod, spoil the child'.

When I was in Junior High, disrespect for your teacher was not tolerated at all. And 'swats' were only administered by the
Football coach, who was known to raise more than one kid off the floor with his paddle with the holes in it. Screams were heard echoing through every hall, and every single kid there was on their best behavior for at least 3 days afterward.

Your 'no spank' rule for kids has already proven to produce a bunch of elitest snobs who tend to think they are smart enough to get away with anything, hence the rise in White collar crime that we have experienced in this country.

Bush is not the instigator for ALL our countries problems, as he has several advisors and experts that TELL him what to do everyday. Many senators and congressmen/women have just as much REAL LIFE power, if not more, as Bush does. Plus, the
facts going back will show, that many things showing up now, were started by people in power before Bush. I liked Bush's
ability to make decisions, but have become disenchanted with his priorities for those decisions. To me,

1) You take care of your family and loved ones first.
2) You take care of your friends and neighbors second.
3) You take care of your Fellow Americans next. (country)
4) You extend your helping hand to others as needed.

We are giving away our middle class in this country, along with the 'engine' (manufacturing, technology) with
outsourcing, NAFTA, CAFTA, that drives our country and makes
it unique in the world.

We are doing a good job for becoming an educated specialized
3rd world country in the future. Our country can not be all things for all people, and this is exactly where priorities come in. Most of our laws and principles are a result of the bible, but in today's world, if you lobby hard enough, you can change that Is it good? No, I don't think so. It's like staring at your steering wheel while trying to cross a busy intersection, you catch a last second glimpse before the crash. Do I like what is going on in the world today? No, I do not, or the 'course' we seem to be on, but it is possible that we may be on a road for a date with destiny, one that was set long before we ever came to be born. <hr /></blockquote>

Sid_Vicious
04-24-2006, 10:54 AM
"Bush is not the instigator for ALL our countries problems, as he has several advisors and experts that TELL him what to do everyday."

I doubt that very seriously, else his ENTIRE economic team of advisors would not have left in his first tenure as president. IMO, Bush has brought about everything wrong, totally onto himself with his so-called "stick to-it" personality. He's simply stubbornly-stupid and that's super dangerous to the country.

I totally agree with the middle class demise part of your post. The illegal alien issue and proposed globalization resulting in a merger with Mexico and Canada will certainly kill off people like me in the 40-50K income bracket, and social security will become a thing of the past due to the poor's added coverage. sid

hondo
04-24-2006, 10:58 AM
Sounds bad in Fla. In WV the president of WVEA is
Charlie Delauder, a long time teacher fom my county
and old friend. He hasn't gotten rich yet. We may
not be as smart as them there floridiens but we're
a fir piece more honest, by cracky.

Drop1
04-24-2006, 11:01 AM
I don't know,how old are you? Is it possible six percent of the world cannot tell the other ninty four to stay behind,drop your tecnology,throw away your history,fall in line because we are the "Great Deciders" OOWH OOWH deciding how the world will be.

Gayle in MD
04-24-2006, 09:50 PM
Or, Loved and cherished by well adjusted parents?

Guess I mispoke then, but the very thought of anyone spanking a toddler, makes my blood boil. As for older children, there are other ways, ways which I think are just as, if not more effective than violence. Hitting, is violence.

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
04-25-2006, 02:44 AM
Its amazing to see your admiration for a POS like K Rove! His only aim is to get his guys elected at ANY COST- f--k Democracy and the will of the people.He doesnt care how many people get hurt in the process!
Honesty ,integrity and a commitment to Democracy are nothing to KR. It just shows how low the REP party have become to justify using todays equivilent of Goebbels. They usehim because they NEED him. They cant win any other way.
In a fair election ie, one in which all the votes are counted and fought on the issues- not on character assassination- the Reps have no chance.

I think the Jeff Gannon affair sums the whole GOP party up. In case you have forgotton, JG [ not even his real name!] was the FAKE news reporter for a FAKE news Co. who was 'waived'in at WH press conferences to ask softball questions and make FAKE assumptions/accusations about the Dems while doing so!
What was REALLY funny was that the guy turns out to be some HOMOSEXUAL call boy/stud! LMAO Also, KR isnt married and doesnt have any girlfriends it seems! Mmmmmmmmmmm.

The problem with the next Dem strategy is that there are so many things to attack GW on, its difficult to choose. I would stick with,
Jeff Gannon- FAKE.
Mission accomplished???????????????????????? LOL
GW- "If there's a leak, I want to know who it was."--Thats YOU MR Pres.
$75 a barrel and Exxon CEO picks up $400 million.
ETC
Lets hope Global warming is a myth because if this year a major hurricane hits L.A, it will be washed into the sea.

Q.........when you pick up the phone, is the Govt listening?

Gayle in MD
04-25-2006, 05:54 AM
Bravo, Q, excellant points, and very true. Interestig that Tony Snow, of Fox (aka, Faux) News is the favorite to replace McClellen as the Bush White House Press Secretary, aka resident stonewaller, and what could be more appropriate than for Fox News to just move right on into the White House Press Room, and spread their usual media lies and spin straight from the Press Room Podium!

SOME people are too partisan to be able to conjure the difference between a president, his particular party majority in congress, or the senate which is occasionally caught in a lie, or corruption, or cronyism, and continual massive deceit, obstruction of justice, skewing of factual information, constant stonewalling, the breaking of laws as policy, unwavering abuse of power which threatens our constitution and democracy, and behaving in a way which puts America in a trick bag, economically, and on a National Security level also.

NOTHING in history compares to this bunch! The Damage is unprecedented. The denial of the righties in the face of the factual information which exists today, and their constant twisting of pertinent information during discussions of our plight, is a good example of how and why THEY are as responsible as the crook in the White House for the loss of life and limb in Iraq, under false pretenses, and our devastating economic circumstances. The Kool Aid Theory has never been more present and appropriate, than evidenced by SOME of the posters on this forum!

Gayle in Md.
So Proud I Didn't Vote For George Bush!

DickLeonard
04-25-2006, 06:16 AM
Sid when you read that Jack Abramoff was paying reporters to write favorable articles on privatizing SS you know that it was a Scam/Scheme of the Thieves in power. Can you imagine the Rip-Off that the Finanical Community would have harvested.

New York States Attorney General soon to be Governor Elliot Spitzer made the State Billions of Dollars taking them to court for their Thieving/collusion. AIG owned by Warren Buffet 780 million dollar fine.

Corporations are Honest,Forthright,Pillars of the Community. Largest Donators to honest government####

Sid_Vicious
04-25-2006, 06:21 AM
Gayle...Where do toddlers become non toddlers? Just a friendly question, and it does fit in this topic even though this thread has shifted. There's a lot of difference in spanking a child for wetting their pants and one who screams NOOOOOOO! after three warning in a crowded grocery store or one who has no respect for even the father when called upon(I knew early that my time to obey was there when "I'll get your dad!".) There must be a true athourity figure at some point, else we have an uncontrolled juvenile in the making...sid

hondo
04-25-2006, 06:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Or, Loved and cherished by well adjusted parents?
TRUE. BUT HOW MANY HAVE WELL- ADJUSTED , LOVING PARENTS?

Guess I mispoke then, but the very thought of anyone spanking a toddler, makes my blood boil. As for older children, there are other ways, ways which I think are just as, if not more effective than violence. Hitting, is violence.
NOBODY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT TODDLERS. WE'VE BEEN TRYING
THESE " OTHER WAYS" FOR YEARS. THESE KIDS GET NO
DISCIPLINE AT HOME AND WE ARE POWERLESS AT SCHOOL.
WE'VE GOT SPOILED, ARROGANT, DISRESPECTFUL BRATS
WHO KNOW NOTHING CAN BE DONE TO THEM. WITHOUT RESPECT
TEACHERS CAN'T TEACH.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

hondo
04-25-2006, 06:30 AM
I too cannot see how anyone can be proud of Rove,
the ultimate deceiver. But Eg's right- the Dems
have no answer for him.

Gayle in MD
04-25-2006, 07:19 AM
Martin,
As you probably know, from our conversations, I love children. When they come into the world, we are unable to know for certain everything they are experiencing, since they can't communicate. When they are toddlers, we are their heros, and they have no context other than what happens to them on a daily bases. When they are treated with loads of love, affection, compassion and understanding, more than anything else, they learn to value themselves, and their relationship to us. They want to be near us. When they mis-behave, their freedom to move around must be curtailed. They have to be put in their room, away from their sight of us, and they get the message that when they throw a tantrum, or act up, we don't want to be around them. They get the idea pretty quickly by our absence.

When they hear only soft voices, and experience only diciplined dicipline, firm, but calm and consistant, they are very easy to handle. These such children which you mention in the crocery store, are not brought up that way. They are screamed at, spanked, shaken, handled in ways which are not the result of patient and loving, well adjusted parents, IMO. They have days when they don't feel well, are tired, are put into circumstances where their best interests are not considered, this is obviously a very complex subject, but in the case you mention, in the grocery store, or anywhere else, for that matter, that child who screams NO to mommy or daddy, has BEEN screamed at regularly, and has certainly not had the kind of treatment which I describe as a matter of course. If my toddler were to behave that way, the groceries would be left, right there, and we would go home. People drag their children around to places where they shouldn't be in the first place, IMO. Grocery stores are no place for toddlers, anyway. I can't believe the way parents handle their children. It is the parents who create unruly children, IMO. But screaming, and hitting, is not the way to raise well adjusted, well behaved, children, IMO. What you are seeing, when you see unruly children, is the result of poor parenting over a period of years. The early years, before five, are the years when the child's behavior patterns are set to a large degree. Parents who scream and yell and hit their children, do them a great dis-service, IMO. Winning the love and respect of a child is far more valuable than creating fear in their hearts when it comes to raising well adjust, well behaved, children. Teaching them that we value them, care about their feelings, and best interest, and do not just see them as inconvenient baggage when they are out of sorts, is part of teaching them to value themselves, and to be in touch with their feelings. This is the bases for well adjusted children, teaching them how to deal with their own confusing emotions and feelings, about themselves, and towards others, makes them confident, and secure emotionally, and leads them toward self understanding, which is the greatest of all gifts we can give to them.

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
04-25-2006, 10:10 AM
I respect your personal opinion, yet I look at my family of me and 4 siblings, all of which became rather well established and non violent within respective families. There is a medium involved, and to not dole out any punishment when needed is IMPO, detrimental to the general population in the long run.

I will add thiugh that my one brother I talked about at times who has problem children out of two, my brother was redirected many times by my sis in law to apologize for his verbal scoldings to one son, and that son also almost never got groundings which were not reduced with little effort on his son's part, that kid is very disrespectful and currently in adult probation by the court system. To parent means you must stay tough in some ways, else you get what you get...Jm2c...sid

eg8r
04-27-2006, 09:47 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Its amazing to see your admiration for a POS like K Rove! <hr /></blockquote> My response is to Gayle. I am not putting Rove on the pedestal, Gayle is. I swear one of these days you will stun us all when you actually comprehend what you read. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
04-27-2006, 09:55 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I too cannot see how anyone can be proud of Rove,
the ultimate deceiver. But Eg's right- the Dems
have no answer for him. <hr /></blockquote> I did not state my feeling for Rove at all. My response was to what Gayle posted, she is the one that is putting him up on the pedestal. While no one does, if someone was to actually listen to Gayle's rants they would think the only way a Dem wins anyting is if Rove allows them too. Her view of politics, especially the Democratic party's ability to nominate someone successful, is pitiful and I suspect most self-respecting Dems would distance themselves from her way of thinking (using the word "thinking" very loosely /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif ). She buckets her party as a group of losers who can only win if Rove would allow it.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
04-28-2006, 07:05 AM
Hondo, I don't doubt what you are saying for one moment. I agree that teachers shouldn't have to put up with unruly students for one moment. But, I also think that principles should expell those students. A teacher can't be expected to turn around years of poor parenting with corporal punishment, that is my point. And, more than likely, it would be abused by some teachers.

I think it's interesting how sane people have evolved beyond hitting their pets, but still think it is OK to hit their children.

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree on the subject of corporal punishment. Physical force isn't justifiable in my view, except in the case of self defense.

Gayle in Md.

hondo
04-28-2006, 07:22 AM
If a student has been diagnosed BD ( behavior development
problems) it is practically impossible to expel them.
And, hey, a smack on the ass never scarred me for life.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hondo, I don't doubt what you are saying for one moment. I agree that teachers shouldn't have to put up with unruly students for one moment. But, I also think that principles should expell those students. A teacher can't be expected to turn around years of poor parenting with corporal punishment, that is my point. And, more than likely, it would be abused by some teachers.

I think it's interesting how sane people have evolved beyond hitting their pets, but still think it is OK to hit their children.

Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree on the subject of corporal punishment. Physical force isn't justifiable in my view, except in the case of self defense.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
04-28-2006, 07:29 AM
I respect your opinion, Hondo, and also, I think those kids BDP kids, should be in special schools, we owe it to our teachers, and our kids.

Gayle in Md.

Samson
04-29-2006, 08:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> The early years, before five, are the years when the child's behavior patterns are set to a large degree. Parents who scream and yell and hit their children, do them a great dis-service, IMO. Winning the love and respect of a child is far more valuable than creating fear in their hearts <font color="red">Blah, blah blah </font color> leads them toward self understanding, which is the greatest of all gifts we can give to them.
<hr /></blockquote>

Creating "Fear in their hearts?" I swear, even Dr. Phil doesn't talk this way. Could you use a few more platitudes?

Anyway, parents should be allowed to control their children's behavior. In fact, they should be much more liable for it. Ultimately, they should be held responsible, and should face consequences that equal or exceed punitive damages for whatever their children cause.

Some kids respond to positive reinforcement. Others respond to negative reinforcement. Others only respond to punishment. Parents are almost left to judge the best method of behaviorial change. Some make poor decisions, others make good ones. SOMETIMES PUNISHMENT IS A GOOD THING!!

Gayle in MD
04-30-2006, 07:43 AM
Actually, I do like SOME of the republican representatives, few, but some, but not the ones who use religion for their platform, AND, I find myself to the far right on this illegal alien issue, since I am for enforcing existing law, always, and completely against amnesty, of ANY kind. I also think we have outgrown the automatic citizenship upon birth, unless granted only when parents are already citizens.

Bingo, on the values issue....our problems in the schools, begin at home, I feel for the teachers....and I am for parental accountability for the behavior of their children, but think the children should have an opportunity for professional help, first, since many abusive parents would find misbehavior in school, just another excuse for parental abuse of some kind.


Those sisters, angels, or deemons, LOL...but, they DID run orderly classrooms, however, I do think we had more parental involvment in those days, and more mother's at home with their children...

My parents expected, Sir and Mam, and my sisters and I were never allowed to be disrespectful, or impolite, to ANYONE, and my Dad had only to say, "Thats enough" in his deep voice, and we stopped dead in our tracks! That was all it took! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in Md.
Gayle in Md.

hondo
04-30-2006, 03:24 PM
Good for you. Most of my kids don't have a dad at home.
.................................................. .....

My parents expected, Sir and Mam, and my sisters and I were never allowed to be disrespectful, or impolite, to ANYONE, and my Dad had only to say, "Thats enough" in his deep voice, and we stopped dead in our tracks! That was all it took! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in Md.
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
05-01-2006, 11:23 AM
That is very sad, and definately a huge part of the problem.

Gayle

Drop1
05-01-2006, 11:49 AM
Thats because they spend more money on their pets. I mean whats a kid compared to an Iguana?

Gayle in MD
05-01-2006, 12:00 PM
LOL, good one. We all know it is wrong to hit a dog, that it does not make for an obediant, happy, well trained animal, so why would people think of hitting as proper dicipline for children? I just don't get it. But then, I do admit, I am the most anti-violence person anyone could imagine.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
05-01-2006, 12:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> LOL, good one. I am the most anti-violence person anyone could imagine.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle, unless you are talking about forced castration of males.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color>


Deeman
or Deemon both are good....

Gayle in MD
05-01-2006, 12:38 PM
C'on, you didn't really think I was serious, or did you, lol. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif Just a little trick to try to see what you guys would think about the government stepping in to dictate to men what they must do with THEIR bodies....and, ah hem, judging from the, ah hem, RANTING reactions, I think we know now how you guys would like it, don't you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gayle in Md....

Deeman3
05-01-2006, 01:24 PM
Already practicing my falcetto voice......

Deeman