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07-08-2002, 08:08 AM
ADVISE PLEASE--which is the best APA or BCA ??? if you had a choice which would you play?

cuechick
07-08-2002, 08:16 AM
It all depends on how they are run in your area? Both have their pros and cons. Some leagues are sanctioned for the BCA but do not use a BCA format...APA always follows the same format. APA can give you a real sense of your own progress and can provide good social interaction. It all depends on what you want and where you live...
I prefer the BCA 8-ball rules to APA but that is a pesonal prefrence. If you can spare 2 nights, I suggest trying both, that is really the only way to decide.

=k=
07-08-2002, 08:20 AM
sim i would think it would depend on what you want to get from the game... apa is handicaped play, more for fun play and bca is more for open play.. i like the middle which is tap rules.. imo..

07-08-2002, 08:40 AM
'splain tap rules ----- have been playing APA for sometime and find it lacking -- good friend talked me into playing in the BCA singles in Vegas this year and i was very impressed. when i returned i started talking about starting a BCA league and found myself in a world of s---! LO wanted to kick me (and my team) out of the APA just for mentioning BCA. since my handicap could not go up LO has moved 3 of my players up, 2 of my ladies went from a 3's to 5's & a 6 to a 7. makes it hard to play within the 23 rule, if we continue to play APA our team will have to break up in order to compete

Rich R.
07-08-2002, 09:56 AM
Cuechick has the best idea, try them both out. There are some differences in the rules of the BCA and the APA. TAP is another league you may want to try.
If you are asking which league is better, that is a very personal thing, depending what you are looking for in a league. Also, a league can vary greatly depending on the people in it. If you try one BCA or APA league location and find that you don't like it, don't be afraid to try another location. It may not be the league you don't like, but the people at that one location. Shop around.
Rich R.

=k=
07-08-2002, 10:17 AM
sim a couple of differances is tap is call your pocket (no slop) which i like.. the other is the way your rateing is determed, leauge operator can't get his finger in ratings.. a little harder to sandbag in their system..

Rich R.
07-08-2002, 10:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: =k=:</font><hr> sim a couple of differances is tap is call your pocket (no slop) which i like.. the other is the way your rateing is determed, leauge operator can't get his finger in ratings.. a little harder to sandbag in their system.. <hr></blockquote>
I have played in TAP and, unfortunately, I found that it is really easier to sandbag for those who choose to. I saw a number of APA skill level 7 (8-ball) players competing at skill level 4 and 5 in TAP. My team ended up dropping out of TAP because of this situation. JMHO. Rich R.

Scott Lee
07-08-2002, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: simsd:</font><hr> LO wanted to kick me (and my team) out of the APA just for mentioning BCA. since my handicap could not go up LO has moved 3 of my players up, 2 of my ladies went from a 3's to 5's &amp; a 6 to a 7. makes it hard to play within the 23 rule, if we continue to play APA our team will have to break up in order to compete <hr></blockquote>

I don't where you live, but I can tell you, as a former APA league operator, they CANNOT kick you out just because you want to be involved with BCA too! This stupid argument began as a dispute between leaders of the APA and BCA. I am a BCA Certified Instructor, and was an APA L.O. at the same time, for four years. APA National didn't particularly LIKE it, but that was tough, because as long as my players were happy, THEY were happy! You DO have some redress if your local LO is raising your teammates skill levels arbitrarily! There MUST be statistical evidence to justify overriding the computer program! The LO CANNOT just raise you for no reason...and NOT liking the BCA is NO valid reason at all! You can petition APA in St. Louis to show cause why your teammates are being raised. All of your local records are in the APA's national computer database, so that information is readily available.
BTW, the main difference between APA and BCA league play, imo, is that in APA you can be coached (which I believe to be a valuable tool for learning while you play). BCA allows NO coaching in any circumstance! Good luck. If you have more trouble with this, I would be happy to help you!
Email me if you choose.

Scott Lee

07-08-2002, 12:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr>BCA allows NO coaching in any circumstance! Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>

well, i play in 2 bca leagues and coaching is allowed. the player simply takes a time out and gets advice from whomever he chooses.

dan

07-08-2002, 12:25 PM
HDJ,

Our BCA league works the same way. 3 coaches per match. (I should mention that our league is probably a little different than most, in that we play 9-ball on 9-footers.)

Also, Scott, don't be so sure about petitioning St. Louis. I found them to be pretty much an old boys network, protecting their own, even in the face of absurd evidence of wrongdoing and incompetence.

- Steve Lipsky

07-08-2002, 12:46 PM

07-08-2002, 01:13 PM
our LO uses the apa handicap system and also has a handicap committee made up of sl 3's,4's, 5's &amp; 6's who reviews the computer generated handicaps and makes changes whenever they like. beat one of these guys and your sure to go up. LO has said that he can make changes as he sees fit regardless of scoresheets. a statement was made in our playoffs by one of the choosen ones that his team would be going to Vegas because they had better handicap management --- we have many UPSET players in our league &amp; i expect a change to be made ASAP

Alfie
07-08-2002, 02:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: =k=:</font><hr> apa is handicaped play, more for fun play and bca is more for open play <hr></blockquote> There are some scratch leagues sanctioned by BCA, but I would guess that they are far outnumbered by the handicapped varieties.

MikeM
07-08-2002, 02:48 PM
I have played in only one league, so I can't really compare. I can tell you my experiences with this league. We play BCA rules but are not sanctioned. It is eight ball, mixed (men and women), and handicapped. Four man teams, round robin each week - everyone on one team plays everyone on the other team. Total score for a frame like in bowling and overall points allow for 5 total points each week. I like this format for this league because it is more a social league than anything else. Over the course of the season you get to play everyone in the league and no one has to sit out, like in APA and TAP. Sandbagging is minimal. It is limited in the level of competetion, but if you just want a fun league, it's a great format.

MM

Alfie
07-08-2002, 02:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Steve_Lipsky:</font><hr> Our BCA league works the same way. 3 coaches per match. <hr></blockquote> Yes, it all depends on how the local operator wants to work it. Our time outs work similar to APA, i.e., 2/game/less skilled and 1/game/more skilled.

Maybe Scott was referring to their national tournament.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Steve_Lipsky:</font><hr> I should mention that our league is probably a little different than most, in that we play 9-ball on 9-footers. <hr></blockquote> I think BCA will sanction any format and rule set as long as it gets people playing pool.

Alfie
07-08-2002, 03:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> I have never played in the BCA, but don't they have some kind of an 8 ball format where a player may play one game against one opponent and then play another opponent etc. A lot of APA players don't like this format. <hr></blockquote> There is no set BCA format adopted nationwide. It is all up to the local LO. Our format is more like APA in that each player plays only one opposing player per match. Our skill levels and match up tables are figured differently, though. The BCA league in the next town plays it like you're talking about.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> sometimes you can get a riduculous L.O. who wants to bump everone up (except those on his/her team LOL). Just elect someone else for L.O. <hr></blockquote> APA LO is not an elected position, it is bought.

07-08-2002, 03:37 PM

07-08-2002, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr> Then they voted in another L.O. Your L.R. CAN BE VOTED OUT. <hr></blockquote>

I don't see how an LO can be voted out. To become an APA league operator, you have to PAY for your territory - it's a franchise business. Maybe the real LO was paying someone to act as LO and when that person was "voted out" the real LO hired someone else?

Karla

Scott Lee
07-08-2002, 09:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Alfie:</font><hr>
Maybe Scott was referring to their national tournament.
<hr></blockquote>

Alfie, Steve &amp; HDJ...Ooops, my bad! LOL Yep, I was thinking of the national tournaments, although I was unaware that local BCA league play allowed coaching. VNEA does not. If I am not mistaken, only APA has the same rules and same coaching variables from the local level to the national level. Thanks for setting me straight!

Scott Lee

rackmup
07-09-2002, 06:04 AM
Play in both of them and you decide. What might be more enjoyable for one player may be a different experience for another.

Neither one is "better". The APA might be more enjoyable for a beginner while the BCA leagues follow a more "accepted" format.

It's like the question; "Which cue is best for me?"

It's the ONE you LIKE.

Regards,

Ken

Mr Ingrate
07-09-2002, 12:01 PM
For me it is not a question of APA vs BCA, but more a question of match ups.

In APA you play one person in an evening. A 7 playing a 2 may not be an enjnoyable match for either player. You could wait all night before getting to the table or you could be up first and then sit all night waiting for the end.

Generally, in BCA, each player on a team plays each player on the other team. It is usually a single game match and you may not have a chance to get to the table at all. However, you are not sitting for long periods of time making it easier to stay and support your team mates.

I have played both and prefer the latter format.

SpiderMan
07-10-2002, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Scott Lee:</font><hr> You DO have some redress if your local LO is raising your teammates skill levels arbitrarily! There MUST be statistical evidence to justify overriding the computer program! Scott Lee <hr></blockquote>



Scott,

I agree it can't be done arbitrarily, but I disagree that it is arbitrary just because it is not based on statistics.

If a player is well known, wouldn't you think the LO should adjust him to a "7" (or whatever is appropriate) without waiting for the statistical evidence (APA matches played)? Our LO does this, and I don't consider it arbitrary. It would not have been fair to other teams if he let me play as a 4 for a number of weeks or gradually inch up. Same with RandyG, he played APA until last year and the same LO assigned his SL based on known ability rather than waiting for accumulation of stats. Again, I don't consider this type of judgement arbitrary.

Of course, for this to work, our LO must know his players and our local pool scene pretty well. Hopefully he keeps his fingers out of the pie in cases where he's not sure.

SpiderMan

Scott Lee
07-10-2002, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SpiderMan:</font><hr>
Scott,

I agree it can't be done arbitrarily, but I disagree that it is arbitrary just because it is not based on statistics.

If a player is well known, wouldn't you think the LO should adjust him to a "7" (or whatever is appropriate) without waiting for the statistical evidence (APA matches played)? Our LO does this, and I don't consider it arbitrary. It would not have been fair to other teams if he let me play as a 4 for a number of weeks or gradually inch up. Same with RandyG, he played APA until last year and the same LO assigned his SL based on known ability rather than waiting for accumulation of stats. Again, I don't consider this type of judgement arbitrary.

Of course, for this to work, our LO must know his players and our local pool scene pretty well. Hopefully he keeps his fingers out of the pie in cases where he's not sure.

SpiderMan <hr></blockquote>

Yes, I agree that the LO must have some leeway in "assigning" handicaps. In my league, if a player was causing problems trying to sandbag as a 4, for instance, I would make him a permanent 7! This of course, would be after the player received a warning. It just didn't sound like the situation described by the poster was anything like this! Sounded more like sour grapes on the part of the LO to me! The truth is likely somewhere in between what you and I both stated!

Scott

07-10-2002, 04:56 PM
In terms of league play, the BCA does not interfere with an individual leagues rules- some leagues allow coaching, some do not- some do not even strictly adhere to the BCA rules. In actual tournaments, coaching is not allowed, but it is up to the individual league to set guidelines in league play. We have a 3 division league that has always allowed coaching (1 coach per game- we play a round-robin format, so each player plays each player on the opposing team) We don't divide the divisions by ability- we have all ranges, and the coaching helps the newer players bring their game up more quickly- as well as keeps them from utter frustration and a tendency to just give up when they don't understand, or are constantly getting beaten up by stronger players.

07-10-2002, 08:50 PM
Hi Simsid.

Well, you are getting a lot of interesting responses to your question! My hubby and I run a BCA league on the west coast. We often refer players to the APA league in this area, and they do the same for us.

Since the APA is a franchise, the league operators, if they do a good job, can actually make a good living running the league. The BCA, on the other hand, is a non-profit organization, and most operators make little or nothing, returning all or most of the money to the players. Another difference, in this area anyway,is that APA players must EARN the right to go to the nationals (and their way is paid). BCA players only have to play 8 weeks in any one session and are thus qualified to enter, though they have to pay their own way.

You know by now that APA has a team "ceiling", and the 5 players on a team must not go above it. (Unfortunately, this system calls out like a siren to those who would cheat it). BCA in this area has teams of anyone and everyone. The handicap comes into play in the team rankings, not the player rankings, and both are 100% objective. We pay out by individual point accrual, so everyone gets money back.

APA is great for beginners; much better, I think, than the BCA here. We've been thinking about starting a novice division, but I keep getting stuck on the thought that it would almost be the blind leading the blind. If I could get experienced players to lend assistance at each match, I think it might work.

But for now, the APA really helps the new players out, because the teams have both new and experienced on the same team by necessity, and the new players get the chance to develop the passion for pool in a competitive environment.

I like the BCA score tracking system better; it is much easier and less labor-intensive. And there's no need for strategy in matching players up against each other. Everyone plays everyone.

I have played in the APA league, and a lot of the players here play both leagues. They each have enough positive differences to make both appealing in the same week! So, like most of the others replying to you, I suggest you give both a try, or at least go and spend a few weeks watching both leagues play their matches.


Regards,

Sassy

07-10-2002, 09:03 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: sharandrew:</font><hr> Hi Simsid.

Another difference, in this area anyway,is that APA players must EARN the right to go to the nationals (and their way is paid). BCA players only have to play 8 weeks in any one session and are thus qualified to enter, though they have to pay their own way.


Regards,

Sassy <hr></blockquote>

jus so people don't get the wrong idea, my, bca league has 2 seasons a year, one is a cash league where, there better your team plays, the more money you get and the other is a vegas season where the top 4 or so teams get to go to vegas with entry, airfare and hotel paid.

dan

Alfie
07-10-2002, 10:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: houstondan:</font><hr> jus so people don't get the wrong idea, my, bca league has 2 seasons a year, one is a cash league where, there better your team plays, the more money you get and the other is a vegas season where the top 4 or so teams get to go to vegas with entry, airfare and hotel paid. <hr></blockquote> Yeah, BCA is different all over.

Scott Lee
07-10-2002, 11:05 PM
Sassy...That is one of the most considerate, accurate, and informative posts I have ever read! Thanks for contributing! I wish more BCA and APA league operators would work together for the betterment of the sport! This petty rivalry at the top levels of both organizations needs to be put to an end!

Scott Lee

07-11-2002, 09:51 AM
i would like to THANK everyone for taking the time, consideration &amp; effort in offering some of the most informative replys i've seen todate regarding a given subject. too many times the subject is lost while everyone gets off on their own rant. THIS IS WHAT THIS FORUM SHOULD BE ABOUT!!!! shareing info/knowledge.
i would also like to say that i do not have any ill feelings about any of the respective leagues. these leagues are only as good as the players and operators (LO's). if the players are willing to accept a leagues given format so be it, however no player or team should be told that they will be dropped/disqualified for even mentioning another league. a CHANGE is coming, never tell me i can't, i'm like a pool table, without balls its nothing.
i am also a proud a BCA member. i joined this year in order to play in the singles open in vegas. was doing well in the tourn until my 5th match. (no loses) due to a slight problem with kidney stones i dropped out while being ahead 3 to 1, got helped to a cab and spent almost 7 hours in the ER. this ain't cool. STILL WONDER IF I WOULD HAVE GOT "PICKLED" IF I STAYED

one last question----as i stated i joined the BCA in order to play in the National Singles Open in vegas. this is allowed at the national level even if you do not play in the league. pay $25.00 to join &amp; $150 entry fee and your qualified for the national tourn. my question is --- why doesn't this membership qualify me to play in the State tourn? very willing to pay the entry
AGAIN THANKS TO ALL!!!!!!!

SPetty
07-11-2002, 11:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: simsd:</font><hr>i'm like a pool table, without balls its nothing.<hr></blockquote>Well, nothing more than a great laundry folding table, or uncomfortable spare bed for unwanted guests, or nifty ironing board, or great air guitar stage, or terrific marble shooting platform, or makeshift ping pong table, or a place to put the cat when you brush him... Oh, did I get off the subject and on my own rant? /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: simsd:</font><hr>STILL WONDER IF I WOULD HAVE GOT "PICKLED" IF I STAYED<hr></blockquote>HAHAHAHA

Vicki
07-11-2002, 12:37 PM
Hi Whitewolf,

We are from the same part of town and I have to (respectfully) disagree with you... the BCA is easily as popular as APA around here. I have played in both leagues and find that one is just as good as the other - but they are different. I don't have a strong preference for one over the other. The BCA leagues in this area do not follow the BCA format but are sanctioned (as someone else mentioned in a previous post). You might want to call Champion Billiards if you are interested in BCA. They have BCA leagues two nights a week - Mon &amp; Wed I think.

I wonder if we have ever met? When I read your posts I always try to guess who you are but so far nothing you have said gives me a clue. I live in Mont. Vlg. and play at Champs, Buffalo Billiards, Grand Billiards. Nice to have a neighbor in this CCB community!

I agree with your suggestion to visit different leagues and talk to people. Every league is different depending on who plays in it.

Vicki