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dr_dave
05-12-2006, 03:16 PM
FYI, I just posted an article on my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) dealing with "tips of English" and its application to draw shots. The article contains many useful illustrations that help define the term and how it is used (and misused). Please check out the article and let me know if you have any comments, disagreements, or suggestions. It will appear in the July'06 issue of Billiards Digest.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

pooltchr
05-12-2006, 03:54 PM
Dave,
Nice article. Check your PM's for one suggestion.
Steve

Jal
05-13-2006, 12:42 PM
Thank you Dr. Dave. I hope everyone who has ever and will ever play pool will read it in one form or another. It would be nice to know what people actually mean when they say x tips of english.

When a tip hits the surface, is it the fact that it hit the surface that causes a miscue? Or is it that it exceeded the maximum offset?

Jim

SpiderMan
05-14-2006, 02:48 PM
Dave,

This terminology "tips of english" does seem to be extremely subject to interpretation. This is due not only (as you point out) to varying sizes and curvatures, but also to a basic lack of "standardization" in terminology. I can go to a poolroom and ask everyone to show me "one and two tips of engish", and they will not all line up identically.

Your proposal of defining offset as a "percentage of maximum" has some merit, but it will only be consistent so long as every participant understands that this means the CONTACT POINT percentage of 50% offset from center. I'm not sure you can change the world to this extent /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW, on page 2 of your July 6 article, I think you meant to say "chalk smudge" rather than "chalk smug". Either the spell-checker didn't understand grammar well enough to catch this typo, or you left it in to see if the masses were really reading.

SpiderMan

dr_dave
05-15-2006, 09:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Dave,
Nice article. Check your PM's for one suggestion.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Steve, you suggested some good alternatives in your PM for measuring and practicing "tips of English." I think you should share them openly for comments and further recommendations.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-15-2006, 09:38 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Thank you Dr. Dave. I hope everyone who has ever and will ever play pool will read it in one form or another. It would be nice to know what people actually mean when they say x tips of english.<hr /></blockquote>
Steve wrote to me that many people use "contact patches" (the size of the chalk mark left of the cue ball) to count "tips." I would also be interested to know what standard measures others use for "tips."

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>When a tip hits the surface, is it the fact that it hit the surface that causes a miscue? Or is it that it exceeded the maximum offset?<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do I have something misleading in the article concerning this? If so, please let me know where it is. A miscue results from hitting the cue ball with too large of an offset (for a given condition of the tip).

Regards,
Dave

pooltchr
05-15-2006, 10:59 AM
Dave,
I think I mentioned it in another thread, but basically, I use the amount of tip that actually makes contact with the cue ball as being 1 tip. If you look at the chalk mark on the cue ball, you will see it is about 4 or 5 mm. It is also surprisingly close to the size of the red dot on the elephant practice ball. You will also note that there are about 5 tips out from that red dot to the edge of the circle that denotes the area where miscues are highly unlikely. By using this method, you can be very precise as to exactly how much spin you are putting on the cue ball. The Jim Rempe training ball uses a scale like a target, but the grids are just about the same size as well. I have been using this measurement method with my students for quite some time, and most have had great success with it. Not to mention, if I ask them to apply 3 tips of spin, they know exactly what I mean. It's nothing fancy, but sometimes simple works best.
Steve

Jal
05-15-2006, 11:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>When a tip hits the surface, is it the fact that it hit the surface that causes a miscue? Or is it that it exceeded the maximum offset?<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do I have something misleading in the article concerning this? If so, please let me know where it is. A miscue results from hitting the cue ball with too large of an offset (for a given condition of the tip).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for clarifification Dr. Dave. It's just that the article states (citing Dr. Onoda):

"3. Draw shot miscues are often caused by hitting the table before the cue ball."

and later

"Ample table clearance is important with large offset draw shots, because as Dr. Onoda points out, a common cause for miscues is hitting the table first, before the ball."

It's hard to see how this by itself would result in a miscue, but I wasn't sure.

If I may make a suggestion, there is another way to determine the stripe's width. If you can get the vertically oriented edges of the stripe to run through the contact points with two other balls that are frozen to it and to each other, then it is a half-ball in width (I think).

http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/gtech/stripe.jpg

Jim

dr_dave
05-15-2006, 12:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>This terminology "tips of english" does seem to be extremely subject to interpretation. This is due not only (as you point out) to varying sizes and curvatures, but also to a basic lack of "standardization" in terminology. I can go to a poolroom and ask everyone to show me "one and two tips of engish", and they will not all line up identically.<hr /></blockquote>
What are some of the methods that you know of for how people measure "tips." The suggestions so far are actual tips (as illustrated in my article) and contact patches (per Steve). Are you aware of others?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>Your proposal of defining offset as a "percentage of maximum" has some merit, but it will only be consistent so long as every participant understands that this means the CONTACT POINT percentage of 50% offset from center. I'm not sure you can change the world to this extent /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>Thanks. Fraction (or percentage) of maximum English was the simplest method I could think of that would be consistent for all tip sizes, curvatures, hardness, etc. Whether the world accepts it or not is up to the world.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SpiderMan:</font><hr>BTW, on page 2 of your July 6 article, I think you meant to say "chalk smudge" rather than "chalk smug". Either the spell-checker didn't understand grammar well enough to catch this typo, or you left it in to see if the masses were really reading.<hr /></blockquote>
I wish I could say: "it was just a test ... and you passed," but I cannot. It was a brain fart on my part. Thanks for pointing this out so I can get the editor to fix it before it goes to print.

This reminds me of an even bigger brain fart I made in my book (although it should be fixed in the next printing): I wrote "rail grove" instead of "rail groove" about a million times in the bank and kick shot chapter. It always amazes me that even after several friends of mine read through the entire book and after two profession editors also read through it (and after I read through it several times), nobody caught such a glaring error. Good job catching "smug."

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-15-2006, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Dave,
I think I mentioned it in another thread, but basically, I use the amount of tip that actually makes contact with the cue ball as being 1 tip. If you look at the chalk mark on the cue ball, you will see it is about 4 or 5 mm. It is also surprisingly close to the size of the red dot on the elephant practice ball. You will also note that there are about 5 tips out from that red dot to the edge of the circle that denotes the area where miscues are highly unlikely. By using this method, you can be very precise as to exactly how much spin you are putting on the cue ball. The Jim Rempe training ball uses a scale like a target, but the grids are just about the same size as well. I have been using this measurement method with my students for quite some time, and most have had great success with it. Not to mention, if I ask them to apply 3 tips of spin, they know exactly what I mean. It's nothing fancy, but sometimes simple works best.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
That sounds like a good approach, and it sounds like it has worked well with your students. I'll have to try it out with my elephant ball at home. The fractional system I recommend in the article is really no different. You are just defining "maximum English" as 5 units and breaking up the range into 1/5 or 20% increments. Sounds good to me.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-15-2006, 12:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>When a tip hits the surface, is it the fact that it hit the surface that causes a miscue? Or is it that it exceeded the maximum offset?<hr /></blockquote>
I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do I have something misleading in the article concerning this? If so, please let me know where it is. A miscue results from hitting the cue ball with too large of an offset (for a given condition of the tip).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>Thanks for clarifification Dr. Dave. It's just that the article states (citing Dr. Onoda):

"3. Draw shot miscues are often caused by hitting the table before the cue ball."

and later

"Ample table clearance is important with large offset draw shots, because as Dr. Onoda points out, a common cause for miscues is hitting the table first, before the ball."

It's hard to see how this by itself would result in a miscue, but I wasn't sure.<hr /></blockquote>
Honestly, I'm not sure if hitting the table first causes more "miscues." However, hitting the table first might increase the chances for an "illegal jump shot" (AKA a "scoop" shot). I think people often assume a "scoop" shot results from a miscue, but this might not always be the case. For more information, see the thread links under "fouls" in the threads summary area of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>If I may make a suggestion, there is another way to determine the stripe's width. If you can get the vertically oriented edges of the stripe to run through the contact points with two other balls that are frozen to it and to each other, then it is a half-ball in width (I think).

http://ww2.netnitco.net/users/gtech/stripe.jpg

Jim <hr /></blockquote>
That's a great idea. Thanks for sharing the image. I wish I had time and space to put it in the article (and give you credit); but as always, I'm already in trouble for making the article too long.

Regards,
Dave

GregN
05-15-2006, 01:10 PM
Very interesting series of articles, Dr. Dave. Thank you for making them available!

Another minor typographical error that you probably already know about -- the paragraph after Diagram 4 starts out "Fro the reasons mentioned above,"

dr_dave
05-15-2006, 01:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GregN:</font><hr> Very interesting series of articles, Dr. Dave. Thank you for making them available!<hr /></blockquote>
My pleasure. I'm glad you are finding them interesting. I very much enjoy writing them.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote GregN:</font><hr>Another minor typographical error that you probably already know about -- the paragraph after Diagram 4 starts out "Fro the reasons mentioned above," <hr /></blockquote>
Thanks for pointing this out. I had also missed this one; although, I trust the BD editor would have caught it. Regardless, it's fixed now. That's one nice thing about having stuff online instead of in print ... it's so easy to fix errors.

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
05-17-2006, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>When a tip hits the surface, is it the fact that it hit the surface that causes a miscue? Or is it that it exceeded the maximum offset?<hr /></blockquote>
Jim,

Thanks for pointing the misleading statements in the article. Bob Jewett also contacted me concerning the same issue. FYI, I was able to add the following paragraph to the article:

"Now, as for whether Onoda’s suggestion 3 above is correct or not is another matter. Hitting the table first is actually not the most common cause for miscues with draw shots. A more likely cause (based on the numbers in the previous paragraph) is hitting the cue ball too low (e.g., with an offset greater than 0.5R). This would be especially true if the cue tip were not well shaped and chalked (in which case miscues would occur with even smaller offsets). I want to thank Bob Jewett and “Jal” (a user on the BD CCB online forum) for helping reassure me that miscues usually occur with the tip well above the table surface. HSV A.1 shows two interesting shot examples related to draw miscues. The second shot in the clip is obviously a miscue; but in the first shot, the cue tip seems to hit the ball and table at very close to the same time. An illegal jump (“scoop”) shot is the result, but it would be a stretch to call the shot a “miscue.”"

The edited version (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/july06.pdf) is online. Hopefully, the BD editor can fit the changes into their layout.

Regards,
Dr. Dave

Jal
05-17-2006, 05:54 PM
Hi Dr. Dave,

I appreciate the credit but if you want to save some space... Also, if you ever want to use the half-ball stripe thing, I probably got it from someone on RSB anyway. Besides, I used your treatment of the coefficient of restitution without citing you in another thread, so quid pro quo I say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for the clarification.

Jim

dr_dave
05-17-2006, 08:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>I appreciate the credit but if you want to save some space...<hr /></blockquote>
A sentence was easy to add. A new diagram (e.g., half-ball stripe) would practically take an act of God at this point in the editing process.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>Also, if you ever want to use the half-ball stripe thing, I probably got it from someone on RSB anyway.<hr /></blockquote>
I hope to use that someday. It's a nifty idea.


<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>Besides, I used your treatment of the coefficient of restitution without citing you in another thread, so quid pro quo I say. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif<hr /></blockquote>
No problemmo.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>Thanks for the clarification.<hr /></blockquote>

You're welcome.

Regards,
Dave

<hr /></blockquote>