PDA

View Full Version : The "Muscle Memory" aiming system"...



Billy_Bob
05-17-2006, 06:40 AM
What "balance system" do you use when you ride a bicycle?

What "aiming system" do you use when you hit a baseball with a bat?

What "speed of pedal pressing system" do you use when you press on the break pedal of your car to bring it to a stop?

Actually when first learning the above, we had to "think" about these things. Now they are "automatic". This is called Muscle Memory or Kinesthetic Memory.

The *same* thing can happen with specific shots in pool!

Muscle memory experiment: Take a beginner - any beginner. Someone who can't hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle. Set up a specific shot on the pool table. Mark the placement of the cue ball and object ball with chalk or stickers. Have the beginner shoot the same *exact* shot 50 times in a row. At first they need to "think" about their aiming. Perhaps use some sort of "aiming system". But after many of the same exact shots, they suddenly begin to just "see" the shot. They just know where to aim to make the ball. They have "learned" that specific shot. Now have that beginner try to shoot various other shots. He will probably miss. Then set up the exact shot which was practiced above. He will probably make it, piece of cake.

For all other shots, the beginner would need to use an "aiming system". But for the specific shot learned above, no aiming system is needed. He can use his "built-in" muscle memory and not even "think" about it...

mybreak
05-17-2006, 07:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> What "balance system" do you use when you ride a bicycle?

What "aiming system" do you use when you hit a baseball with a bat?

What "speed of pedal pressing system" do you use when you press on the break pedal of your car to bring it to a stop?

Actually when first learning the above, we had to "think" about these things. Now they are "automatic". This is called Muscle Memory or Kinesthetic Memory.

The *same* thing can happen with specific shots in pool!

Muscle memory experiment: Take a beginner - any beginner. Someone who can't hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle. Set up a specific shot on the pool table. Mark the placement of the cue ball and object ball with chalk or stickers. Have the beginner shoot the same *exact* shot 50 times in a row. At first they need to "think" about their aiming. Perhaps use some sort of "aiming system". But after many of the same exact shots, they suddenly begin to just "see" the shot. They just know where to aim to make the ball. They have "learned" that specific shot. Now have that beginner try to shoot various other shots. He will probably miss. Then set up the exact shot which was practiced above. He will probably make it, piece of cake.

For all other shots, the beginner would need to use an "aiming system". But for the specific shot learned above, no aiming system is needed. He can use his "built-in" muscle memory and not even "think" about it...
<hr /></blockquote>

I hate to tell you this dude, but muscles DO NOT have memories. Ask your bicep what it remembers of your 5th birthday. Even your love muscle can't remember it's first time in the sack.

Billy Bob, you come on ALL of these forums like you're some kind of top player and you're basically a two year total experience hack. What the hell do you really know?
Nice try though, that's what these forums are all about.
Have fun and good luck.

mybreak
05-17-2006, 07:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mybreak:</font><hr>
I hate to tell you this dude, but muscles DO NOT have memories. Ask your bicep what it remembers of your 5th birthday. Even your love muscle can't remember it's first time in the sack.

Billy Bob, you come on ALL of these forums like you're some kind of top player and you're basically a two year total experience hack. What the hell do you really know?
Nice try though, that's what these forums are all about.
Have fun and good luck. <hr /></blockquote>

DAMMIT!! I just realized that I went from "Newbie" to "Journeyman". I want to go back to being a "Newbie". If I delete some posts, can I please be called "Newbie" again? (I guess I better stop posting or it could get worse and go to the next level) (Much to the delight of a few here)ROTFLMAO

nAz
05-17-2006, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mybreak:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mybreak:</font><hr>
(I guess I better stop posting or it could get worse and go to the next level) (Much to the delight of a few here)ROTFLMAO <hr /></blockquote>

Naaa stick around, i like watching people make fools of themselfs /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

let me know if your aiming thread ever gets answerd.

wolfdancer
05-17-2006, 08:25 AM
I Googled muscle memory....and found this on a site that offers heavy equipment training:
(Scientists have discovered that there are a large number of internal brain structures which work together with the input and output brain structures to form fleeting images in the mind. Using these images, we learn to interpret input signals, process them, and formulate output responses in a deliberate, conscious, way.)

But after a while, the "seeing-thinking-doing" gradually becomes "seeing-doing" because your muscles seem to "know" and "remember" just what to do. What you're learning now is speed, i.e. how to perform the task carefully and quickly. That's muscle memory.

Scientists call this "kinesthetic memory" or "neuro-muscular facilitation" and they speak of "sensory-motor" learning, since you are combining sensing input, i.e. what you see with your eyes, with motor output, i.e. what you do with your body.

Of course, during the "drill-and-practice", your muscles aren't really memorizing anything (since all memories are stored in your brain). Instead, what you see with your eyes is interpreted by your brain in the form of nerve signals to your muscles to make your body move.

Now by making the same movements in response to the same visual cues over and over again, the associated nerve-muscle connections gradually become more effective, i.e. the transmission of the signals becomes more effective, and this is how the "thinking" in the "seeing-thinking-doing" is gradually replaced by "seeing-doing", i.e. by muscle memory.
But remember: acquiring skills is variable. Some people learn faster than others and go on to achieve higher levels of performance just because they were born with more pre-requisite abilities.
Recent research suggests that learning new skills and creating muscle memory is a three part process. In stage 1, differences in learning correlate with differences in general intelligence. Later, in stage 2, differences in learning are largely due to differences in perceptual/cognitive abilities. Finally, in stage 3, differences in learning are dominated by differences in psycho-motor abilities. This means that once training ends, how skilled you become depends upon your perceptual, cognitive, and psycho-motor abilities
There are even better sites that explain proprioception, or kinesthesia.
the line about taking the thinking out of the seeing-thinking-doing process (after much practice) explains
(to me) why folks here can honestly say they just feel the shot, and you can also honestly say they are using an aiming system.
For me that

Cueless Joey
05-17-2006, 08:39 AM
You know Efren and company only became great after reading all these aiming systems.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Johnny Archer was a better player before he came up with an aiming system. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

mybreak
05-17-2006, 08:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mybreak:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote mybreak:</font><hr>
(I guess I better stop posting or it could get worse and go to the next level) (Much to the delight of a few here)ROTFLMAO <hr /></blockquote>

Naaa stick around, i like watching people make fools of themselfs /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

let me know if your aiming thread ever gets answerd. <hr /></blockquote>

Well damn, every time YOU POST you get to see a fool then.

If you had even a half of a brain, you could see that the aiming thread got answered, by examples of aiming and an admittance from Spiderman that he does in fact use aiming systems when you get right down to it. There's no where else for it to go. Here's a part of Spidermans post:

Personally I use the "ghost ball" technique most often, but not to exclusion of others. I learned to play with no coaching, and "ghost ball" was something I thought I invented . I didn't learn what everyone else called it until I read "99 Critical Shots". Now on some simple shots I just let the subconscious handle aiming - all I visualize is the desired result, and it happens, right down to how much the CB path distorts from the draw, and how far it rolls after the second rail. On very thin cuts I may visualize actual ball-to-ball contact points. But on ALL caroms I fall back to an augmented ghost-ball alignment. Most players will hit caroms too thick if they rely on feel.

Make you feel like the fool that you are, huh? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif LMAO

wolfdancer
05-17-2006, 08:54 AM
Maybe, "shot memory" might be a little more palatable for you.
shooting a similiar shot a few hundred times in the past might allow you to just "shoot from the hip"

mybreak
05-17-2006, 09:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
But after a while, the "seeing-thinking-doing" gradually becomes "seeing-doing" because your muscles seem to "know" and "remember" just what to do. What you're learning now is speed, i.e. how to perform the task carefully and quickly. That's muscle memory.
<hr /></blockquote>

Here's the acid test for PURE MUSCLE MEMORY. If the muscles have memory, blindfold yourself and tell me how many spot shots you make out of 10, 100, or 1,000.

I think you train yourself to become more coordinated and learn the movement which eventually leads to consistency in that movement. But the eyes and brain STILL have to tell the muscles what to do, they will not act on their own.

Try shooting with your opposite hand and see how successful you'll be until you get coordinated. (if ever) I've dealt in teaching over a thousand people in a particular function and a good number or them have NO MUSCLE MEMORY regardless of how many times they do it because they're basically uncoordinated and not very athletically inclined from childhood. They develop to a certain point and that's it.

Barbara
05-17-2006, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> Johnny Archer was a better player before he came up with an aiming system. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Quicker too, huh?! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Barbara

mybreak
05-17-2006, 09:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> You know Efren and company only became great after reading all these aiming systems.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Johnny Archer was a better player before he came up with an aiming system. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif <hr /></blockquote>

No Joey, Efren didn't have to come here to learn aiming systems. He had one way before this place came into existence. Here's a snip out of the P&amp;B article on "How Pros Aim":

#12 ranked Neslie O'Hare explains what she was taught. "The technique I use was taught to me by EFREN REYES. According to Efren, there are three kinds of hits on any object ball. First, there's looking at the center of cue ball to the point of aim if the shot is a full hit. If not, you can divide the object ball into four quarters, sighting your cue ball edge to point of aim. When using english with a medium-to-hard stroke,, you don't change the point of aim. With outside english, you aim a sixteenth of an inch fuller on the object ball than you normally would. But all bets are off when using a soft stroke because of deflection etc."

Efren Reyes, ranked #5 and winner of last month's Sands Regency title, further explains. "When you put a lot of english on the cue ball you adjust a little bit often aiming exactly at the contact point of an object ball. So it very much depends on my next shot how I will aim".

Johnny Archer was a better player before he played at a snails pace and became obsessed with every little piece of lint or imaginary dust particle on the table, not because he got an aiming system.

I'm going to make a prediction. Joey, being the non-aimer proponent tangent line freak that he is, will probably say that somebody other than EFREN wrote the article or twisted his arm and words to say something. Or better yet, he'll disavow that Neslie O'Hare even talked to Efren her entire life. Let's see if that happens.

It's come to me by word of the grapevine that Joey can build a pretty good cue but he can't shoot a lick.

wolfdancer
05-17-2006, 09:58 AM
you missed the part in the article about the muscles not having a memory...but the brain does.
Riding a bicycle and ice-skating take a conscious effort at first, but once you've learned how....it's a no-brainer.
I think something similiar occurs in sports, and pocketing pool balls is no exception.
Whether Efran just "sees" the shot, or uses some esoteric aiming system, won't help me in my Quixotic quest to master the game. If I can't "see" the shot, I'll have to find an aiming system that works for me...and then hope my hand-eye coordination is good enough for a repeatable stroke.
to use a golf analogy, there is no real aiming system for a downhill, breaking 10 ft'r. But relying on visual input and feel...I wouldn't bet against Mr. Wooods on making the putt....to win.

Your point is that you can't pocket a ball with just "feel"... without some form of a conscious aiming system???
And it's not debatable...anyone that disagrees with your rationale is a moron?

mybreak
05-17-2006, 10:14 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>
Your point is that you can't pocket a ball with just "feel"... without some form of a conscious aiming system???
And it's not debatable...anyone that disagrees with your rationale is a moron?
<hr /></blockquote>

Let's go to the blindfold test again. Set up a spot shot and tell me how many you make by "feel" after shooting 10, 100, or 1,000. That is truly feel.

Your reading skills need to be worked on. If you go back in a couple of my posts, I think you'll clearly see that I stated, conscious, subconscious, or unconscious, but yes...some form of aiming is in existence at those levels.

Btw, pro golfers do everything that they possibly can to AIM a putt. Aiming a putt comes in aiming the body first of all to deliver as straight as stroke as possible, and then once they're over the ball, they constantly look back and forth between the cup and the face of the putter to make damn certain that it's aimed on the line of the putt. Some of them, including Tiger, mark a line across the ball to help them AIM it better and more consistently.


Let me ask you a question, can you play this game at all?
Really...or are you just one of these debating pontificators on all subjects? I honestly don't get anything else out of your posts that lead me to believe you have experience, skill, and ability.

I'm certainly not going to call you a moron for disagreeing with me, but I'm starting to think you are one just because of your posts and the fact you just may be.

wolfdancer
05-17-2006, 10:31 AM
actually since you misinterpreted the article I quoted, badly, I might add....it's your reading skills that need some work. Mine are fine, by the way, when I read something that has a ring of authenticity to it.....not just some blowhard's supposition
It really doesn't matter if I can play or not, since we are just discussing your aiming topic, and I'm only offering my opinion.
I can't discern any pool expertise from reading your posts either....what I do surmise though is a narrow-minded, argumentive individual, that has already antagonized several people on this forum, and has added nothing substansive to any discussion on pool...or life.
People who rant and rave, picking arguements, then insulting others, on internet forums, I rank in the same category as the ahole drivers that cut people off, and then flip them off....which at some base emotional level assuages their feelings of insecurity. Sure it's juvenile....but some folks just never grow up, not even after playing pool, or playing at pool, for 45 years...
as a footnote, like eg8r, who also thought he spoke
"ex-cathreda".....I'm adding you to my ignore list

bsmutz
05-17-2006, 10:38 AM
You seem to forget that everybody on here REGARDLESS OF THEIR SKILL LEVEL, has a common interest in playing pool. They also have opinions just like you, even though they may not be the same as yours. It doesn't make them morons, stupid, or any less of a person than you are. Why do you feel it necessary to attack people personally? We've tried a variety of approaches to try to show you how some people might come up with the idea or OPINION that they are shooting by rote, muscle memory, intuitive feel, or butt pucker technology to no avail. Okay, we can't convince you. You don't have to accept our arguments. No one is going to make you. No big deal. What is it about this whole thing that makes you feel you have to get agreement from everyone before you will let it go?

mybreak
05-17-2006, 10:48 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> You seem to forget that everybody on here REGARDLESS OF THEIR SKILL LEVEL, has a common interest in playing pool. They also have opinions just like you, even though they may not be the same as yours. It doesn't make them morons, stupid, or any less of a person than you are. Why do you feel it necessary to attack people personally? We've tried a variety of approaches to try to show you how some people might come up with the idea or OPINION that they are shooting by rote, muscle memory, intuitive feel, or butt pucker technology to no avail. Okay, we can't convince you. You don't have to accept our arguments. No one is going to make you. No big deal. What is it about this whole thing that makes you feel you have to get agreement from everyone before you will let it go? <hr /></blockquote>

I don't feel like I have to get agreement from everyone, especially the non-shooting hack losers. What I do know is I've gotten agreement from the ones that CAN play, DO and CAN teach, and for the most part had Spiderman change his original statement around to concur that he uses aiming systems upon rethinking it. I do have respect for his skills and thought processes.

In your case, I could care less. You're like a nonentity. You don't exist. Your ideas don't count nor matter to me. That's it. End of me posting to you. Adios.

bsmutz
05-17-2006, 10:56 AM
Good. Thanks, jerk.

wolfdancer
05-17-2006, 11:07 AM
So what did I do....after deciding not to read any more of his
nonsensical crap?....Iread his reply to you.
It's sheer lunacy...he believes he has total agreement now from all the skilled players and teachers on this forum......and has dismissed everybody else as not being worthy of his time.
Well, we win a few, and lose a few.....I'll buy you a beer next time, and we'll toast to a friendship that almost was, except for a slight disagreement, on his **** status

mybreak
05-17-2006, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> So what did I do....after deciding not to read any more of his
nonsensical crap?....Iread his reply to you.
It's sheer lunacy...he believes he has total agreement now from all the skilled players and teachers on this forum......and has dismissed everybody else as not being worthy of his time.
Well, we win a few, and lose a few.....I'll buy you a beer next time, and we'll toast to a friendship that almost was, except for a slight disagreement, on his **** status
<hr /></blockquote>

Thankfully I haven't put you on Ignore. I think the two of you SHOULD have a beer together. Birds of a feather flock together. Two DO-DO birds. Losers to the nth degree.

Cueless Joey
05-17-2006, 01:07 PM
And you believe her?
If you REALLY want to learn how Efren aims, pay Alex, the ex-manager of Shooters.
Of course, it won't help if you have a crooked stroke, RK altered eyes, hypo glycemia and ADD. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

mybreak
05-17-2006, 01:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cueless Joey:</font><hr> And you believe her?
<hr /></blockquote>


ROTFLMAO...I knew you were going to say that it wasn't true, even in a round about way. You're too easy. LOL

Cueless Joey
05-17-2006, 02:12 PM
Drivermaker, if you believe her, so be it.
Actually, Efren says there are only three shots in pool for cueball control. Straight, angles and thin cuts.
But, it's ok.
I can't convince you anyways. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Joey~Speaks Tagalog much better than Leslie O'Hare. Even speak Fred's lost dialect.~ /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Qtec
05-17-2006, 02:21 PM
Joey, the guy is a TROLL. Even he doesnt believe a word HE says!

Qtec

Cueless Joey
05-17-2006, 02:26 PM
Thnx.
I thought this was really Drivermaker.
The one who got banned at AZB.
/ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

heater451
05-17-2006, 04:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mybreak:</font><hr> I hate to tell you this dude, but muscles DO NOT have memories. Ask your bicep what it remembers of your 5th birthday. Even your love muscle can't remember it's first time in the sack.

Billy Bob, you come on ALL of these forums like you're some kind of top player and you're basically a two year total experience hack. What the hell do you really know?
Nice try though, that's what these forums are all about.
Have fun and good luck. <hr /></blockquote>I love to tell you this, dude, but "muscle memory" is the phrase applied to the use of kinesthetic sense to complete a task requiring the physical musculature. Then again, maybe you take things literally, in order to percieve yourself as smarter than someone else. If that works for you, then go with it.

But, if you notice a common thread among truly intelligent (and wise) persons, it's that they exemplify some kind of humility. OTOH, great egos are a hallmark of many who are actually good at something, but many times they are probably covering up a real, low self-esteem. Pick your camp.

Overall, I really think that you might be able to actually add something to the discussions, if you would lay off the pissing contests.

And please, please realize, that I am not trying to "start something" with you, but do sincerely wish that you would allow for the fact that we try to respect one another here. Beyond that, the interaction of internet forums allow one to be as much of an ass as one wishes. . . .

Just beware the slings and arrows, my friend.



=================================

wolfdancer
05-17-2006, 10:53 PM
well said. I'm sure that I could make a statement about pool that would be completely wrong....and if either Bob or Fred choose to correct me it would be done in a civil tone...since neither one would also be trying to compare dick lengths at the same time (they would lose there, of course)

Billy_Bob
05-18-2006, 08:20 AM
Dictionary says...
term - a word or group of words designating something

Google search of the *term* "muscle memory": 343,000 pages found.

Stretch
05-18-2006, 10:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> well said. I'm sure that I could make a statement about pool that would be completely wrong....and if either Bob or Fred choose to correct me it would be done in a civil tone...since neither one would also be trying to compare dick lengths at the same time (they would lose there, of course) <hr /></blockquote>

LOL, Wolf your too funny! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

SPetty
05-18-2006, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I'm sure that I could make a statement about pool that would be completely wrong....and if either Bob or Fred choose to correct me it would be done in a civil tone...<hr /></blockquote>I could be civil...<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>since neither one would also be trying to compare dick lengths at the same time (they would lose there, of course) <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I would probably lose there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

pooltchr
05-18-2006, 11:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I'm sure that I could make a statement about pool that would be completely wrong....and if either Bob or Fred choose to correct me it would be done in a civil tone...<hr /></blockquote>I could be civil...<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>since neither one would also be trying to compare dick lengths at the same time (they would lose there, of course) <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I would probably lose there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Susan...I thought women say size doesn't matter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif or is that just something my wife says to be nice? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Steve

Eric.
05-18-2006, 11:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> ...<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>since neither one would also be trying to compare dick lengths at the same time (they would lose there, of course) <hr /></blockquote>Yeah, I would probably lose there. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

That is one contest you should lose.


Eric &gt;would be surprised if SPetty won

heater451
05-18-2006, 03:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> well said. I'm sure that I could make a statement about pool that would be completely wrong....and if either Bob or Fred choose to correct me it would be done in a civil tone...since neither one would also be trying to compare dick lengths at the same time (they would lose there, of course) <hr /></blockquote>Makes you wonder why the term "cockfighting" decribes birds. . . .

Anyway, I don't remember the Latin term for it, but I think there is a "Logical Argument", that considers taking words out of context (or, literally), in order to change the argument. It might be the old "red herring", or "strawman" argument (of which Mr. Agnir seems fond of uncovering, /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif --btw, has he been around?). The whole "muscles don't have memory" bit falls in there, I think.

Then, of course, there's the always-popular-on-internet-forums argument of "argumentum ad hominem", which is simply attacking the person, as opposed to his argument.

Oh, and thanks for the "well said"!


===================================

wolfdancer
05-18-2006, 04:09 PM
Fred has reemerged as "Plasticman"...no, that ain't right, he's "Cornerman"....and as usual has some good tidbits to throw into the pot.

Billy_Bob
05-19-2006, 08:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr>Makes you wonder why the term "cockfighting" decribes birds...<hr /></blockquote>

Also the term "cockpit" in airplanes. I wonder what it would be called if women were the first pilots?

I'm still waiting for some young kid to ask why we "dial" a phone number...

9_Ball_Junky
05-19-2006, 11:21 AM
allo all,

y'know, i come here to associate with like-minded pool enthusiasts and, hopefully, to pick up tidbits of advice. unfortunately, every thread i read about aiming systems, methods, whatever, is dominated by mybreak and his "my
sh!t don't stink" attitude.

mybreak, go take a flying f*ck at a rolling donut, you arrogant bastard! you are one of those people that avoids poolhalls because they know they would say something stupid and get their @$$ beat. i have known a lot of people like you, and every time i have gotten one of them on a pool table, they havent been able to walk the walk, although for months they had talked the talk.

go back to the damn newbies post and see if you can find some intellect there. leave this forum to it's own devices, without your arrogant, selfish attitude.

J

heater451
05-19-2006, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr>Makes you wonder why the term "cockfighting" decribes birds...<hr /></blockquote>

Also the term "cockpit" in airplanes. I wonder what it would be called if women were the first pilots?

I'm still waiting for some young kid to ask why we "dial" a phone number...
<hr /></blockquote>I think "cocktail" is the only word that seems to be blatantly honest in its use.

"Dialing" a phone--I had not thought of that one. And, why do we still refer to it as "ringing", or use the term "ring tone"?



===============================

heater451
05-19-2006, 03:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9_Ball_Junky:</font><hr> allo all,

y'know, i come here to associate with like-minded pool enthusiasts and, hopefully, to pick up tidbits of advice. unfortunately, every thread i read about aiming systems, methods, whatever, is dominated by mybreak and his "my
sh!t don't stink" attitude.

mybreak, go take a flying f*ck at a rolling donut, you arrogant bastard! you are one of those people that avoids poolhalls because they know they would say something stupid and get their @$$ beat. i have known a lot of people like you, and every time i have gotten one of them on a pool table, they havent been able to walk the walk, although for months they had talked the talk.

go back to the damn newbies post and see if you can find some intellect there. leave this forum to it's own devices, without your arrogant, selfish attitude.

J <hr /></blockquote>I have it on some authority, that mybreak has already given up on the CCB. I actually wished that he had stayed and shared some knowledge--sans the attitude--but I suppose it wasn't meant to be. . . .


==============================

Alfie
05-19-2006, 08:14 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> I actually wished that he had stayed and shared some knowledge--sans the attitude <hr /></blockquote>He is not capable of that, imo.

wolfdancer
05-20-2006, 11:05 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I have it on some authority <hr /></blockquote>
Couldn't remember where that line came from....but they old synapses are still firing occasionally....
Camelot? "What do the simple folks do...."?

I found his posts, smug,"superior",insulting,challenging, etc....sort of like FL's...but without the humor.

SPetty
05-20-2006, 11:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote heater451:</font><hr> I have it on some authority, that mybreak has already given up on the CCB. <hr /></blockquote>So do you know who he is/was? Do you know what his credentials might have been that caused him to come across as so self-important and superior and nasty?

I was wondering what Earl Strickland might have sounded like had he been anonymous on a forum...

If he is "just a player", we've got quite a few of those that know an awful lot about pool and don't come across as so self-important and superior and abrasive. So like you said --sans the attitude-- ...

bsmutz
05-22-2006, 11:18 AM
I'm pretty sure "mybreak" was the same person as DriverMaker on AZB. His style of attack and the questions he was posing were exactly the same. Don't know his real personna. On a lighter note, I like the way they still say, "Don't touch that dial..." on TV. When's the last time you saw a TV with a dial? When's the last time you actually got out of your chair to "touch" the dial? Methinks this expression needs updating. Like, "Don't try to find that remote, we'll be right back."

heater451
05-22-2006, 04:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr>So do you know who he is/was? Do you know what his credentials might have been that caused him to come across as so self-important and superior and nasty?

I was wondering what Earl Strickland might have sounded like had he been anonymous on a forum...

If he is "just a player", we've got quite a few of those that know an awful lot about pool and don't come across as so self-important and superior and abrasive. So like you said --sans the attitude-- ... <hr /></blockquote>I do not know.

And although I now have two opposing opinions on his character, which I believe do know who he is, I am inclined to let it rest (after this post). I will not divulge my sources, as I don't want anyone arguing over something that's "done". Furthermore, unless he wishes to come back, and discuss pool reasonably (to my personal tolerances), I don't find it's worth any more of my time to deal with him or his identity.

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not Earl. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif



==========================

PoolSharkAllen
05-23-2006, 10:29 AM
I'd be interested in knowing what Dr. Dave or Bob Jewitt or any of the other pool instructors think of the Muscle Memory aiming system.

wolfdancer
05-23-2006, 11:30 AM
What do you think of it?
Billy wasn't promoting it as a system, per se....I think he was saying that if you shoot a straight shot in a few thousand times, a 'neuron pathway" retained by the brain, might allow you to shoot another straight in shot with some regularity
http://www.diseases-explained.com/EssentialTremor/Resources/etpc008515centerp.gif

unless you're like me....and get tremors every time you're faced with a tough shot.

dr_dave
05-23-2006, 11:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolSharkAllen:</font><hr> I'd be interested in knowing what Dr. Dave or Bob Jewitt or any of the other pool instructors think of the Muscle Memory aiming system.<hr /></blockquote>
I think there is nothing better than having perfect natural intuition that comes from years of practice. That's my sense of the meaning of the "muscle memory aiming system." In other words, "it just comes naturally" or you just "see the angle" and shoot. That's great if it works consistently and under pressure.

However, like with many things, I think knowledge and understanding can help players improve and develop intuition faster (especially players that have limited time to dedicate to practice). For example, if you have some techniques to help you aim and if you know how to adjust for various factors (e.g., throw effects based on shot speed, cut angle, and amount/type of English), then you can build intuition much faster than with just random practice.

That's what Dr. Dave thinks.

PS: For some related past postings and threads, see:
- thinkers vs. feelers (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=175913&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=)
- technical knowledge is not enough (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=184727&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1)

wolfdancer
05-23-2006, 12:02 PM
I think for a new player, there are two major challenges....how to pocket balls, and how to predict the resultant path of the cueball after contact.
Having some technical knowledge at your disposal, can allow your skills to develope more readily then some heuristic approach to learning the game.

dr_dave
05-23-2006, 12:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I think for a new player, there are two major challenges....how to pocket balls, and how to predict the resultant path of the cueball after contact.
Having some technical knowledge at your disposal, can allow your skills to develope more readily then some heuristic approach to learning the game.<hr /></blockquote>
Agreed! I like knowledge and I love teaching (engineering, pool, anything else I think I know something about). To me, there is no better feeling than seeing a student improve dramatically and quickly to a new plateau after learning something he or she didn't know before.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
05-23-2006, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I think for a new player, there are two major challenges....how to pocket balls, and how to predict the resultant path of the cueball after contact.
Having some technical knowledge at your disposal, can allow your skills to develope more readily then some heuristic approach to learning the game.
<hr /></blockquote>

Excuse my jumping in here... I agree that good information for beginners is generally a good thing, however, we must be careful as teachers to not disrupt the naturalness or emerging style of a new player by force-feeding them too much technical information. The trial and error process encompasses much more than just hit and misses. There's stuff that goes on in that process that I think can be dangerously disrupted through formula-type learning.

Fran

dr_dave
05-23-2006, 02:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I think for a new player, there are two major challenges....how to pocket balls, and how to predict the resultant path of the cueball after contact.
Having some technical knowledge at your disposal, can allow your skills to develope more readily then some heuristic approach to learning the game.
<hr /></blockquote>

Excuse my jumping in here... I agree that good information for beginners is generally a good thing, however, we must be careful as teachers to not disrupt the naturalness or emerging style of a new player by force-feeding them too much technical information. The trial and error process encompasses much more than just hit and misses. There's stuff that goes on in that process that I think can be dangerously disrupted through formula-type learning.

Fran<hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

Great point. That's the challenging job for instructors like you: work with individuals to help them progress naturally and with shared knowledge to match their personal style and level of ability.

Dave

Fran Crimi
05-23-2006, 02:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Fran,

Great point. That's the challenging job for instructors like you: work with individuals to help them progress naturally and with shared knowledge to match their personal style and level of ability.

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks. Also, players studying on their own should be cautious of getting too caught up in the technical information as well. Sometimes they need to just play pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif I think people forget that part sometimes.

Fran

Qtec
05-24-2006, 04:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> I think for a new player, there are two major challenges....how to pocket balls, and how to predict the resultant path of the cueball after contact.
Having some technical knowledge at your disposal, can allow your skills to develope more readily then some heuristic approach to learning the game.
<hr /></blockquote>

Excuse my jumping in here... I agree that good information for beginners is generally a good thing, however, we must be careful as teachers to not disrupt the naturalness or emerging style of a new player by force-feeding them too much technical information. <font color="blue"> Too much info at the wrong time can be a bad thing. I agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif [ got hammered on here for saying the same thing 3 years ago.] </font color> The trial and error process encompasses much more than just hit and misses. <font color="blue"> Nothing wrong with trial and error if its approached in the right way. </font color> There's stuff that goes on in that process that I think can be dangerously disrupted through formula-type learning. <font color="blue"> If I have a student that pots almost every ball but has his elbow way off line, am I going to tell him its technically wrong?
Me? No. I wouldnt even mention it.
It all depends on the person what lesson you give. If a teacher gives a 'standard'lesson, irrespective of the pupil, they might as well read a book!
</font color>

Fran

<hr /></blockquote>

For most people, the worst thing you can do is teach yourself.

Q.........BTW, you know you killed that other thread with an excellent post........ /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Actually, the first time I read it I agreed with 85%. Then I read it again... and again.. and the final figure was 98.5% in agreement. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I,ll bet thats made your day! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


Its because people are individuals, its difficult to talk in generalities. Each case should be viewed on its own merits, without predudice. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

An open mind is the key to all knowledge.

Q

DickLeonard
05-24-2006, 05:33 AM
Mybreak if you saw me play left handed or right handed you couldn't tell what hand I shoot with. I have run over 100 balls either hand.

I think finesse shots have to be accomplished and stored in your memory bank otherwise when one appears it is impossible to execute, no matter what your level of play is.####

DickLeonard
05-24-2006, 05:44 AM
Wolfdancer a very interesting post, I think being a concert violinst would be easier than being a pro poolplayer simply for the fact that one would not have to keep setting up shots.

In a hour of playing the violin it would be all practicing while only half of the time would actually be shooting balls the the rest of the time would be spent walking around the table, retrieving balls etc. Unless you have an assistant to perform the useless tasks.####

DickLeonard
05-24-2006, 05:58 AM
Mybreak using pro golfers as an example is stretching aiming. I never heard of them drawing a line on their ball. I think that would be against the rules of Golf giving one unfair advantge but they do use the name of the ball for the line. The caddy is behind them making sure they are lined up straight.

If you took away the caddy you can add 5 strokes to everyones round.####

DickLeonard
05-24-2006, 06:16 AM
Wolfdancer I have had hand and arm tremors my whole life. I attributed it to pitching hardball from age 9 to 15. My Drs. solution just shoot opposite hand for a year. It isn't in your mechanics it is in your brain. Whether you play left or right your still using the same bain. You will always be playing the right shots.

Is there any cure for hand/arm tremors?####

wolfdancer
05-24-2006, 06:45 AM
Dick, I think mybreak, gave us a break and left for parts unknown.
I know someone that does have arm tremors, but seems to time them, ans plays pretty good pool.....not in your class however. Running 100 with either hand is awesome....

Fran Crimi
05-24-2006, 09:02 AM
[ QUOTE ]
An open mind is the key to all knowledge.
<hr /></blockquote>

Ain't it the truth!

98.5% Is a good number. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'll take it.

Fran

PoolSharkAllen
05-24-2006, 10:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> Wolfdancer I have had hand and arm tremors my whole life. I attributed it to pitching hardball from age 9 to 15. Is there any cure for hand/arm tremors?#### <hr /></blockquote>

Dick, I would consider going to a doctor that specializes in muscle tremors for potential treatment (and also to see if you have a underlying condition).

BTW, People who have Parkinson's sometimes benefit from drinking coffee and/or using a nicotine patch.

heater451
05-24-2006, 03:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>..I think he was saying that if you shoot a straight shot in a few thousand times, a 'neuron pathway" retained by the brain, might allow you to shoot another straight in shot with some regularity. . . .<hr /></blockquote>Okay, this is definitely open to correction, because I cannot note the sources of these memories, and I'm stringing together tidbits of things I've seen/read, and taken to be correct. Of course, my regurgitation of said "facts" may be lacking. . . .

I seem to have it in my head that, when a muscle-motion is occuring, the electrical brain pulses that cause the motion, follow a pathway through the brain and body, to the end muscles. The brain does the "steering", and the muscles complete the work. Since you could essentially call any one of those ever used a "neural path", I will refer to the "Primary Path", as being the one path most desired to complete a task--such as a cue-delivery stroke.

The more that patways are used, which equal or most closely approximate the Primary Path, the more that particular path is reinforced, and the easier it is to re-use that path(s) for a repeatable muscle-motion. This is all primarily on the brain side, and the "steering" might be compared to programming, while the actual movement is muscle reaction to that programming (Sorry, to mix metaphors). So, instead of "muscle memory", you actually have a (sort-of-unconscious) "brain memory".

At the other end of the machine, the muscles, no memory is actually used, but since the Primary Path exists for a chosen task, the correct muscles are more likely to be brought into play, and more often. I would also hypothesize that, since these muscles are exercised in a certain sequence, under specific intensities, then they are being "trained" to work in the same manner (or as close to the same) each time the task/programming is enacted, and this also lends itself to a reinforcement of the practiced routine.

So, although muscles don't really have "memory", the use of brain memory of how to complete a task, adhering to a "correct form" as a guide, and repeating their use to build the muscles, all lends itself to being "muscle memory.

As use of such "muscle memory" increases, the ease of repetition also increases. If you combine the repeated use of the brain/eyes to aim, and the repeated use of the brain/muscles to shoot, one could be considered to be using "feel".



========================

wolfdancer
05-24-2006, 04:54 PM
I've also read that if you don't practice.....within 72 hrs, you will lose a little "touch.
I'm sure that people can lay off, run several racks, bowl a 300, shot 1 under par, etc.....but I believe Chuck Hogan did some research on that???
I think muscle memory is just a name for a learned skill, something you can do without much conscious effort, like "wiping" or "wax on, wax off" ....it's too bad mybreak gave up on us....I'm sure he could clear this whole thing up....