View Full Version : Help with a questionable loss
05-23-2006, 01:25 AM
had an interesting situation tonight at my local hall. played one of the owners double-or-nothing for 50, which essentially was 100 bucks.....i had 1 ball left on the table, and played a safety of sorts, leaving a long bank with the 8 about 4-5 inches out of the the corner pocket on the foot rail, and about 3/4 of an inch off the rail.
after my wonderful safety, the guy makes a phenomenal shot, but to avoid making myself seem like a blowhard, or like i wasnt gonna pay the guy, i didnt bring up the point of him not calling the bank.
normally this wouldnt have bothered me, as it is a gentleman's game, but i lost 100 bucks on a 2-rail shot that was never called, and the guy never even called one rail, thinking it was obvious. he was surrounded by friends, so, like i said, to avoid a conflict, i didnt bring it up.
what the hell should i do? i think i got ripped off, but this is the largest amount i have played for in a long long while...
should i bring it up, or shut up, cut my losses and tell the guy to stick it next time he wants to play for money?
05-23-2006, 06:26 AM
Ah, the pitfalls of 8ball. You don't have to call banks of ANY KIND, according to the normal rules. He should have called the pocket for the 8, but it's NOT required to call banks, kisses, combinations, etc. Sorry, but if you play 8ball for money, you need to get all the rules established before play begins.
05-23-2006, 07:12 AM
generally i wouldnt be concerned with this, but, number one due to the money involved, and number 2, due to the fact that this guy ALWAYS calls his 8-ball, down to the rail, disturbs me. his failure to do so in this instance makes me think that it may have been something he was unsure about himself (the number of rails) therefore he didnt call any at all in hopes that he would pocket the 8 and collect.
i think i will arrive at the hall and have a word with him about it, maybe play again, maybe not. this situation is very discomforting for me knowing that if it had been me i would have been honest enough to either call 2 rails or hand over the win when my intended shot didnt happen.
i guess this is one of the downfalls of a "gentleman's game" that we commonly play, with calling fouls and being honest about intended shots.
i actually lost one of our weekly tournaments, with the pot being something like 65 dollars to win, to the same guy because i was honest and the ball came off an extra rail. i wish he would have done the same yesterday, not only because it would mean i wasnt in the hole 100 bucks, but due to the fact that it is going to be harder to trust him in any further matters.
05-23-2006, 07:12 AM
sorry, computer got wierd and threw an extra reply in there.........piece of sh!t
05-23-2006, 08:02 AM
1. I associate the word "gentleman" with cheating and sharking when it comes to pool and when this word is used. I have yet to meet a "gentleman" in these situations. And people who play this way seem to need to keep pointing out that it is "gentleman's pool"! I wonder why? (Not talking about you BTW.)
2. BCA rules are fair to all. They are written rules and well thought out to keep players from cheating. I prefer BCA rules for tournaments because if there is a question (like the above), it can be resolved by consulting the rule book. It saves a lot of arguing.
I don't play in "bar rules" tournaments anymore because of problems like the above. I want to see written rules and rules which do not change like night and day.
Get a BCA rule book here...
05-23-2006, 08:14 AM
First of all, are you sure he didn't inadvertently point to a pocket and you didn't see him?
Second, in your posts, you refer to extra rails and such, but you don't say if balls went into the correct pockets. In all accepted official sets of rules, you only have to call the pocket. The ball can go around the table 10 times and if it goes in the correct pocket, it is a good shot. Are you playing by some set of local rules where you have to call every rail that the ball hits?
/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
05-23-2006, 08:46 AM
Rich, they are playing call shot, as opposed to call pocket. In the classic example...you have a pocket partially blocked by another ball...any ball, but the shot can be made. You have to call whether your ball will go in clean, or touch the other ball on the way in. Playing by these rules for $$ is inviting controversy.
05-23-2006, 08:48 AM
Again, what does "the rail" have to do with it?? You do NOT have to call rails, etc. All you have to do is call the ball and pocket. As long as the ball and pocket were called, ya got no beef. If you're playing bar-room rules where everything has to be called, yer on yer own. This is why arguments start and people get hurt.
05-23-2006, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Rich, they are playing call shot, as opposed to call pocket. In the classic example...you have a pocket partially blocked by another ball...any ball, but the shot can be made. You have to call whether your ball will go in clean, or touch the other ball on the way in. Playing by these rules for $$ is inviting controversy. <hr /></blockquote>
That is what I suspected, but I wasn't sure.
Damn bar room rules. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
If people want to play for money, or play at all, they should learn at least one official set of rules. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif
05-23-2006, 02:12 PM
For the record, there is no such thing as calling the way a ball gets pocketed. Call shot is the same thing as calling the pocket. If people want to attach a different meaning to the two terms then that's their problem but there is no game in pool that requires the shooter to call the way a ball gets pocketed.
05-23-2006, 04:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Rich, they are playing call shot, as opposed to call pocket. In the classic example...you have a pocket partially blocked by another ball...any ball, but the shot can be made. You have to call whether your ball will go in clean, or touch the other ball on the way in. Playing by these rules for $$ is inviting controversy. <hr /></blockquote>Didn't he say that he didn't call either the shot (incl rails) nor the pocket?
Unless they were playing full-slop, he should have called it. And for money, people should make sure a call is known (perfect world).
ALWAYS establish the rules ahead of the break.
05-23-2006, 05:10 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Rich, they are playing call shot, as opposed to call pocket. In the classic example...you have a pocket partially blocked by another ball...any ball, but the shot can be made. You have to call whether your ball will go in clean, or touch the other ball on the way in. <hr /></blockquote>
It's hard to believe anyone would even play this way. When I first heard of rules like this, they were demanded by people who couldn't run three balls and, in the words of the Fatman, "wouldn't bet fat meat was greasy".
05-23-2006, 07:49 PM
My reading skills may need improving...I thought the controversy was over 2 rails, not one....and there is no mention of a called pocket, after rereading the post....so....I'm not sure what rules they were playing under.
05-24-2006, 03:34 AM
As others have mentioned I'm guessing you were playing barroom rules, which in and of itself is something I've rarely seen the same rules used twice in. Heck, that guy may even be on another board asking if it was legal for you to just leave him tough, rather than TRYING to pocket a ball. Anytime you are playing you've got to make sure you and your opponent are playing the same game. But even going over things before the match playing "barroom" will almost always leave some situation out. As others have said, try to use some established set of rules, such as BCA or APA or whatever, just so there is something solid you can point to in such a situation.
My main concern was that the money seemed to bother you. And of course nobody wants to lose a nickel, much less a c-note. But if losing a hundred bucks is gonna hurt you or steam you to that extent, then you're playing over your head. Personally as far as gambling goes you should never play for more than you care about losing. Sorry if that's rather vague, but it it's been a long night.
Hope the situation works out, and print you off a copy of some rules... any rules... and try to use them next time.
05-24-2006, 09:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> For the record, there is no such thing as calling the way a ball gets pocketed. Call shot is the same thing as calling the pocket. If people want to attach a different meaning to the two terms then that's their problem but there is no game in pool that requires the shooter to call the way a ball gets pocketed.
Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Fran...Although I agree with you in principle, you're incorrect in your assumption that there are no pool games played this way. The majority of league play in the U.S. is unaffiliated, and many have their own set of "house rules"...let alone the 'rules' that two people gambling play by. As long as both players understand the rules they are playing by, then the rules are 'legal', for play in that match, regardless of whether they're in a book or not.
For the record, I agree with BB, and always have a BCA rule book handy, to point out that most 'real' poolplayers do not play by 'house rules'.
05-24-2006, 09:46 AM
Apparently, you've never played pool in a bar in NYC....lol
All these rules aberrations can be traced back to NYC bars.
There aren't any official rules requiring a diagram of the cueball path before contact, and the object ball path after contact, but many a bar game requires that you call each rail and carom ....I've seen disputes over calling a shot straight in, and it touches the rail first.
I've lost my share of games, where the pocket was partially blocked, and I called the 8 to carom off the other ball....but pocketed it clean.
At the Senior Center I joined...and haven't been back to.....they have more rules re 8 ball, then the USGA has regarding Golf.
We used to ask in a new bar, are we playing call shot, or call pocket.
There aren't any mulligans in Golf Rules either....but
05-24-2006, 10:24 AM
Scott, maybe you can name a league where the rules are that you have to call the way in which the ball is pocketed. I can't think of any.
05-24-2006, 10:25 AM
Of course there are house rules. And I can bowl a game of only 9 innings if I want to. But that doesn't make it right.
House rules are just that, and anything goes as far as I can tell. How on earth do you even try to make a ruling when there's no method or logic? You can't.
05-24-2006, 12:24 PM
Fran, my only point was...I thought they were playing what I know as "call shot".....and playing them "rules" for money, is just inviting problems.
05-24-2006, 12:33 PM
damn, didnt intend on my question turning into a big @$$ argument over which set of rules and/or non-rules we were using, i just wanted to know if, on a questionable call, should i talk to the guy. i did that, and he said he called 2 rails, so thats fine by me. there was a lot of noise in the room, and i may have just missed the call.
i grew up playing callshot, and still to this day, if there is a carom, combo, or an extra rail going to be hit, i will call it for the sake of avoiding issues like this, and especially on 8-ball banks because i dont want to screw up and lose money over me not calling the shot.
i may be getting screwed still, but the c-note doesnt bother me, theres a bunch more where that came from, and i dont gamble if i cant afford to lose it.
thanx for the advice, and i think ill fire the printer up and print off some rules (bca) and take them to the hall when i head into town, just to avoid any retarded crap like this in the future.
05-24-2006, 03:34 PM
As Fran said "call shot" and "call pocket" are the same thing and I have seen this in rule books going way back. So these both mean to just say which ball in which pocket.
I coined my own phrase which is "Bar Call Shot" which would mean call all kisses, caroms, etc.
05-24-2006, 08:00 PM
In most call shot games, a shot doesn't have to be verbally announced if the shot is obvious (except for 14.1 with a ref presiding over the match).
A two rail bank is not considered an obvious shot. In fact, all banks should be called. But again, only the ball and the pocket need to be called. You had every right to question his shot whether you were playing for $100 or table time. You would have had to have interrupted him at the table which is perfectly legal to do. You shouldn't worry about interrupting him because he was the one who was supposed to be courteous enough to call the shot in the first place. If he didn't, he deserved to be interrupted.
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