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Billy_Bob
05-25-2006, 11:39 AM
Last week (before my hand injury), I had a shot where I *knew* beforehand exactly where the cue ball would go after my shot, that it would hit a second ball dead on, and that it would send that ball toward a corner pocket, and that I would have an easy shot on that ball following my shot on the first ball.

Yeaaaa!

And I learned this just by paying attention to where the cue ball goes after each shot. And then about a year of doing this. Mostly I just know "about" where the cue ball will go.

So I guess this is just something you learn with experience.

Also about a year ago, I asked about combination shots. How do you know where the first ball in the combination will go after the shot, etc. I have been paying attention to this since asking that question. Before each combination shot (I avoid them if at all possible BTW), I ask myself where the first ball in the combination will go after the shot. And where the cue ball will go after the shot. Many times now when shooting a combination shot, I can leave the cue ball in a good position after the shot to then pocket the 1st ball from the combination.

Again learning this has just been paying attention to what happens when I shoot a combination shot. Watching where the first ball in a combination goes after the shot.

SteveFromNY
05-25-2006, 12:02 PM
yup, a lot of times during practice, I just hit the balls around (not neccessarily pocketing them) but always aim the balls to send the CB to a certain spot. This has helped me tremendously in position play.

Stretch
05-27-2006, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SteveFromNY:</font><hr> yup, a lot of times during practice, I just hit the balls around (not neccessarily pocketing them) but always aim the balls to send the CB to a certain spot. This has helped me tremendously in position play. <hr /></blockquote>

How does that saying go? " the shot aint worth sh*t, if you don't get the shape" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

Fran Crimi
05-28-2006, 06:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
So I guess this is just something you learn with experience.
<hr /></blockquote>

As opposed to learning something in pool without experience? Can you give an example of something you've learned (confident enough to use in competition, of course) where experience wasn't a requirement?

I can't think of anything at the moment. Can you?

Fran

dr_dave
05-28-2006, 11:12 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Can you give an example of something you've learned (confident enough to use in competition, of course) where experience wasn't a requirement?

I can't think of anything at the moment. Can you?<hr /></blockquote>
Yep. Here's an example. When I learned that a firm but relaxed V-sign (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=186845&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) happens to form an angle very close to 30 degrees (for me and most people), I was able to immediately apply the 30 degree rule (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) in various situations (e.g., scratch avoidance, carom shots, break-out shots, avoidance shots, position play, etc.) very accurately, without prior practice (although practice and experience always help).

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
05-28-2006, 11:27 AM
So far as needing experience for everything, I guess I meant some way of telling *exactly* where the cue ball will go as opposed to *about* where the cue ball will go.

I knew the cue ball would hit the other ball (after the shot) dead on. Not 1/8 inch to left or right, but smack dead in the center.

So as Dr. Dave said, I can use my peace sign and know *about* where the cue ball will go and don't need a lot of experience for this. But experience does make doing this better. Knowing how wide to spread my fingers to make my peace sign comes with experience.

Hummm... Just thought of something which might improve accuracy with the peace sign. Make a piece sign, then place another finger at the end of the piece sign fingers - use the other finger to measure how wide the fingers are spread open.

With my fingers, I can place a whole finger at the tips of my piece sign fingers.

Billy_Bob
05-28-2006, 11:41 AM
Hey it works! (This is advanced "fingerology" here...)
(Thanks Fran and Dr. Dave!)

Make piece sign, use other finger at tips of piece sign fingers to measure how wide the fingers are spread, then see where 30 degree finger is pointing.

What I did was use a protractor to see how wide my fingers need to be to make 30 degrees, then place other finger at tips [of piece sign fingers] to see how that lines up. (So the finger over the tips of the two piece sign fingers forms a triangle.)

Fran Crimi
05-28-2006, 12:41 PM
Okay, I can see how your peace sign would be helpful without any prior use. Anything else?

Fran

Fran Crimi
05-28-2006, 12:42 PM
Glad to be of assistance, I think. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran ~~ "Peace" be with you.

cushioncrawler
05-28-2006, 04:10 PM
A bit of history -- if your opponent is French, best to cover your cue with vaseline before uzing the 30dg Vee -- or at least dont use your right hand here -- koz i was reading that in the olden dayz this was the sign used by English archers, to show (to their French enemy on the other hill) that they still had their arrow fingers (on their right hand) -- the French used to cut off a finger (off English prisoners) to ensure that they could never fire an arrow in anger.

Scott Lee
05-29-2006, 12:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> How does that saying go? " the shot aint worth sh*t, if you don't get the shape" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, Stretch, the saying is, "Shape ain't sh*t, without the shot!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

Qtec
05-29-2006, 04:03 AM
Dave, I just learned that my nose is at an angle 33 degrees to my face.[ yep-big nose! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif]
Can you tell me how by learning this, its going to improve my game? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Qtec
05-29-2006, 04:20 AM
The 30 dgree rule? has forever been called 'the natural angle'. It only applies to rolling Qballs. The 2 absolutes [ almost /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif]for all billiard games are 'the natural angle' and the 90 degree stun-shot. There are just reference points.
Imagine you have a 1/2ball shot into the corner from 4ft and you need to bring the QB around 3 rails Your brain freezes and you dont know where to start, you just dont see it.
If you know how to play the shot that stuns the QB 90 degrees,[ and feel it!],you can follow the path of the QB and adjust from there.
Qtec

Stretch
05-29-2006, 05:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr> How does that saying go? " the shot aint worth sh*t, if you don't get the shape" /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St. <hr /></blockquote>

Actually, Stretch, the saying is, "Shape ain't sh*t, without the shot!" /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

lol, You say tomatoe.........lets work the whole thing out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif St.

wolfdancer
05-29-2006, 10:02 AM
you're "fudging" a bit here, since the "peace sign" is an adjunct to something learned by experience.
But...I can see where that little tip would help a lot of players

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 10:04 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Hey it works! (This is advanced "fingerology" here...)
(Thanks Fran and Dr. Dave!)

Make piece sign, use other finger at tips of piece sign fingers to measure how wide the fingers are spread, then see where 30 degree finger is pointing.

What I did was use a protractor to see how wide my fingers need to be to make 30 degrees, then place other finger at tips [of piece sign fingers] to see how that lines up. (So the finger over the tips of the two piece sign fingers forms a triangle.) <hr /></blockquote>
Billy_Bob,

That's a great idea! Thanks for coming up with that. My V-sign is pretty well calibrated ... and with a slight stretch, I can fairly accurately change my hand from 30 degrees (average deflection angle) to 34 degrees (maximum deflection angle at a 1/2-ball hit). However, for players new to the 30 degree rule, your finger trick can take all of the guessing out of it.

Now, if people don't have a protractor or a 30-60-90 drafting triangle handy, they can cut out a piece of paper to use as a template to calibrate their finger measurement. A right triangle 12" on one side and 6 15/16" on the other will create a 30 degree angle (see my April '04 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/april04.pdf) for more information).

Thanks,
Dave

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 10:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> you're "fudging" a bit here, since the "peace sign" is an adjunct to something learned by experience.
But...I can see where that little tip would help a lot of players<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, with Bily_Bob's extra finger idea (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227266&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1), I'm not fudging one bit. The V-sign angle can be set very accurately (to 30 degrees or 34 degrees or whatever angle you want) by using landmarks on another finger.

In fact, I think I will visit a tatoo parlor and have permanent marks added to my left hand index finger (for 30 and 34 degrees) so my V-sign can always be absolutely perfect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
05-29-2006, 10:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...In fact, I think I will visit a tatoo parlor and have permanent marks added to my left hand index finger (for 30 and 34 degrees) so my V-sign can always be absolutely perfect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Actually I was thinking that too, but did not say anything! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 10:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Okay, I can see how your peace sign would be helpful without any prior use. Anything else?<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, I can probably come up with at least 100 more examples. Many of these, and others, can be found in the thread links (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) and articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) I have posted. Here are a few examples of useful knowledge that can immediately help someone be a better player (if they don't know this stuff already):

- the CB persists along the tangent line only for a stun shot (i.e., the 90 degree rule).
- with more speed, a rolling CB travels farther down the tangent line before curving to the 30 degree direction.
- the mirror image, equal angle, equal distance, and other bank and kick shot aiming systems can be useful.
- with bank shots, an outside cut flattens the rebound angle and an inside cut shortens the rebound angle.
- with bank shots, more speed and OB closeness to the rail, both of which result in less OB roll, shorten the rebound angle.
- CB English can transfer to the OB and change its rebound direction off a rail (e.g., right English transfers some left spin to the OB making it rebound more to the left).
- OB throw is larger with less speed and for a stun shot with a medium amount of spin.
- outside English can be used to minimize or eliminate throw.

etc., etc., etc.!

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 10:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>...In fact, I think I will visit a tatoo parlor and have permanent marks added to my left hand index finger (for 30 and 34 degrees) so my V-sign can always be absolutely perfect. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Actually I was thinking that too, but did not say anything! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif<hr /></blockquote>

Thanks again for your great idea to use "finger calibration." Brilliant! I hope you don't mind if I "borrow" the idea if I ever decide to finish my second book.

Regards,
Dave

Billy_Bob
05-29-2006, 10:36 AM
Also I have taught beginners the 30 and 90 degree rules and they almost instantly stop scratching. Others with 20 years experience just "know" if it will scratch or not, yet don't know the 30 and 90 degree rules.

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 10:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> A bit of history -- if your opponent is French, best to cover your cue with vaseline before uzing the 30dg Vee -- or at least dont use your right hand here -- koz i was reading that in the olden dayz this was the sign used by English archers, to show (to their French enemy on the other hill) that they still had their arrow fingers (on their right hand) -- the French used to cut off a finger (off English prisoners) to ensure that they could never fire an arrow in anger. <hr /></blockquote>
cushioncrawler,

Thanks for sharing that. I've actually had many people point this out to me before. However, fortunately, Winston Churchill (after WWII) and American hippies in the 1960's helped turn around the "image" of the V-sign. Most people now perceive it to mean "victory" (which I think is very appropriate with the 30 degree rule in pool since it can help you win games) and "peace."

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 10:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> Also I have taught beginners the 30 and 90 degree rules and they almost instantly stop scratching. Others with 20 years experience just "know" if it will scratch or not, yet don't know the 30 and 90 degree rules. <hr /></blockquote>
I've also gotten better at "just knowing" where the ball will go, but I still pull out my trusty V-sign when there is traffic, or when I'm not sure if a rolling carom is exactly dead on or not, or when a scratch might be a close call. To me, it is always reassuring to be able to verify or check my intuition (with 30 degree rule applications, bank shot aiming, etc.) ... it creates greater confidence, which makes me play better.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 10:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Dave, I just learned that my nose is at an angle 33 degrees to my face.[ yep-big nose! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif]<hr /></blockquote>
Well, if you don't like Billy_Bob's finger idea (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227266&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=), you might be able to use your nose to calibrate your V-sign (although, this will tend to make your fingers greasy, which is not good). Also, with such a big nose, you should be able to smell a bad odor if the shot doesn't look lined up right. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Can you tell me how by learning this, its going to improve my game? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif <hr /></blockquote>
Sorry, but I cannot. This is a trade secret! You will need to hire me as your personal trainer before I would be willing to share this wisdom. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Actually, for a player as good as you seem to be, I don't think you need to use your fingers because you probably already know exactly where the CB will go anyway.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
05-29-2006, 01:26 PM
Quote Fran Crimi:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, I can see how your peace sign would be helpful without any prior use. Anything else?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Actually, I can probably come up with at least 100 more examples. Many of these, and others, can be found in the thread links and articles I have posted. Here are a few examples of useful knowledge that can immediately help someone be a better player (if they don't know this stuff already):

- the CB persists along the tangent line only for a stun shot (i.e., the 90 degree rule).
- with more speed, a rolling CB travels farther down the tangent line before curving to the 30 degree direction.
- the mirror image, equal angle, equal distance, and other bank and kick shot aiming systems can be useful.
- with bank shots, an outside cut flattens the rebound angle and an inside cut shortens the rebound angle.
- with bank shots, more speed and OB closeness to the rail, both of which result in less OB roll, shorten the rebound angle.
- CB English can transfer to the OB and change its rebound direction off a rail (e.g., right English transfers some left spin to the OB making it rebound more to the left).
- OB throw is larger with less speed and for a stun shot with a medium amount of spin.
- outside English can be used to minimize or eliminate throw.

etc., etc., etc.!

Regards,
Dave


Dave, I appreciate what you're saying, but my point is a very simple one. With all the information you now know, and all the stuff you've put up on your website and shared with players like Billy Bob and others, how good do you guys play? Does it or does it not take experience?

Fran

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 01:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Okay, I can see how your peace sign would be helpful without any prior use. Anything else?<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, I can probably come up with at least 100 more examples. Many of these, and others, can be found in the thread links (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) and articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html) I have posted. Here are a few examples of useful knowledge that can immediately help someone be a better player (if they don't know this stuff already):

- the CB persists along the tangent line only for a stun shot (i.e., the 90 degree rule). <font color="blue"> Nope. You need to know how to execute a stun shot first. If you can't execute it, the knowledge is meaningless. </font color>


- with more speed, a rolling CB travels farther down the tangent line before curving to the 30 degree direction. <font color="blue"> Again, how much speed and how do you execute it without experience? </font color>



- the mirror image, equal angle, equal distance, and other bank and kick shot aiming systems can be useful. <font color="blue"> Not if you accidentally strike the cb with unwanted sidespin. </font color>



- with bank shots, an outside cut flattens the rebound angle and an inside cut shortens the rebound angle. <font color="blue"> Okay, this one could possibly help. I'm not sure what the effects with accidentally applied sidespin would do, though. </font color>


- with bank shots, more speed and OB closeness to the rail, both of which result in less OB roll, shorten the rebound angle. <font color="blue"> More speed than what? </font color>


- CB English can transfer to the OB and change its rebound direction off a rail (e.g., right English transfers some left spin to the OB making it rebound more to the left). <font color="blue"> Hopefully, the shooter has enough experience to know just how much sidespin they are applying, or even worse, unwanted spin by accident due to lack of experience. </font color>


- OB throw is larger with less speed and for a stun shot with a medium amount of spin. <font color="blue"> Got to know how to execute a stun shot. Got to know what medium spin is. All these take experience for any consistency. </font color>


- outside English can be used to minimize or eliminate throw. <font color="blue"> How much outside english? Does the shooter know how much they're using? Takes experience. </font color>


etc., etc., etc.!

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>


My point is, that while all of the above information can be helpful if a player wants to go that way, the player must know themselves and their own game before they can truly put it to work for themselves.<hr /></blockquote>

Fran,

You make some good points, and I agree with your comments. However, the point I was trying to make is that knowledge alone is useful. Now, it is obvious that people need to practice and gain experience to apply their knowledge to the fullest potential; but many players really don't have a solid understanding of the principles of pool. In fact, many of them have many misunderstandings that often require countless mistakes and years of practice for them to discover and fix. I think knowledge and understanding can be powerful in helping someone practice more efficiently and improve faster. That is the whole premise of my book ("The Illustrated Principles of Pool and Billiards").

Respectfully,
Dave

PS: Here are related replies on technical knowledge (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=184463&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) and thinking vs. feeling (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=175913&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=&amp;PHPSESSID=). I think our disagreements (if there are any) are summed up pretty well there.

Fran Crimi
05-29-2006, 02:03 PM
Rats,

You're too quick Dave. I edited my post right after I posted it. I decided to dispense with all the minutia and cut to the chase. It's now a different response than the one you responded to.

Here's a copy of my edited response earlier:

[ QUOTE ]
Dave, I appreciate what you're saying, but my point is a very simple one. With all the information you now know, and all the stuff you've put up on your website and shared with players like Billy Bob and others, how good do you guys play? Does it or does it not take experience?

Fran
<hr /></blockquote>

Fran

wolfdancer
05-29-2006, 02:13 PM
Buddy Hall has a DVD out called the clock system....by hitting the cueball at points resembling the hours on a clock face....he alters the carom angle by exactly one diamond....it's an interesting and useful idea. Fred Brown, in the 80's wrote a little gem of a book, titled "The Wagon-Wheel System" Except for the terminology, the premise was the same. At the bargain price of about $6....I never realised just what a bargain it was until recently.
Fred's long gone now, but i used to make it a point to sit near him during a tournament...and listen to him tell his friend, the shooter's probable strategy for his next shot....Fred was usually right on the money.
"Rock Around the Clock" was probably THE song that ushered in the rock &amp; roll era....Bill Haley and the Comets...in case anybody is old enough to have heard of him.....I'm old enough to have seen him in person....Portland,Maine......sometime during the last century.
It may have been the best song for it's time......but the movie "Rock....." has got to rank up there with Elvis' "Love Me Tender" as one of the worst.
Not bad, eh.....pool to r&amp;r in one post....even a little continuity of thought
don't turn off the life support just yet....there's still some erratic brain waves
Dr Dave checking out his carom angle:
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/5760/dave0nu.jpg

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 02:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Dave, I appreciate what you're saying, but my point is a very simple one. With all the information you now know, and all the stuff you've put up on your website and shared with players like Billy Bob and others, how good do you guys play? Does it or does it not take experience?<hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

That is a very simple question and here is my very simple answer: I think I play much better than I would if I didn't have the knowledge that I do have. For example, when I learned how powerful the 30 degree rule and the V-sign hand could be in my game (for scratch avoindance, caroms, break-out shots, position play, etc.), I honestly think I improved 20-30%, practically immediately.

Now, concerning how good I play, I think the honest answer is: not very good compared to dedicated pool players. Although, I can often beat many people that put in many more hours than I do at the table. I also often find that many "good" players are not always very good with strategy and planning. I can often win based on those factors alone.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 02:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>Dr Dave checking out his carom angle:
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/5760/dave0nu.jpg <hr /></blockquote>
Groovy! Thanks for that. I think I will see this image in my head every time I use my V-sign at the pool table in the future.

Catch you later,
Dave

Fran Crimi
05-29-2006, 02:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Although, I can often beat many people that put in many more hours than I do at the table. I also often find that many "good" players are not always very good with strategy and planning. I can often win based on those factors alone.
<hr /></blockquote>

Trust me. There's a point of diminishing returns, and it happens pretty early on in your pool-playing career. You need to log in the hours or you will lose to more experienced players over time. Your non-experienced knowledge will not get you far without experience on the table.

Fran

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 02:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Trust me. There's a point of diminishing returns, and it happens pretty early on in your pool-playing career. You need to log in the hours or you will lose to more experienced players over time. Your non-experienced knowledge will not get you far without experience on the table.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I agree with you 100%! Practice and experience are absolutely essential to reach your full potential. Talent and knowledge can assist in development and they can help one reach a higher level, but nothing beats table time in terms of game impact.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
05-29-2006, 02:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Trust me. There's a point of diminishing returns, and it happens pretty early on in your pool-playing career. You need to log in the hours or you will lose to more experienced players over time. Your non-experienced knowledge will not get you far without experience on the table.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I agree with you 100%! Practice and experience are absolutely essential to reach your full potential. Talent and knowledge can assist in development and they can help one reach a higher level, but nothing beats table time in terms of game impact.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>


Oh no you don't... LOL

Practice and table time are not essential just to reach your full potential. They're essential to reach a small percentage of your potential. Billy Bob is living proof of that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 02:59 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Trust me. There's a point of diminishing returns, and it happens pretty early on in your pool-playing career. You need to log in the hours or you will lose to more experienced players over time. Your non-experienced knowledge will not get you far without experience on the table.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran,

I agree with you 100%! Practice and experience are absolutely essential to reach your full potential. Talent and knowledge can assist in development and they can help one reach a higher level, but nothing beats table time in terms of game impact.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>


Oh no you don't... LOL

Practice and table time are not essential just to reach your full potential. They're essential to reach a small percentage of your potential. Billy Bob is living proof of that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Fran,

Ok, you win. I totally agree. Practice is good and essential at all levels; and the more, the better.

Catch you later,
Dave

PoolSharkAllen
05-29-2006, 04:33 PM
Ouch! My head is spinning from the contradictory advice. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

On the one hand, Fran seems to suggest that experience at the table counts more than knowledge. "Your non-experienced knowledge will not get you far without experience on the table."

Then on the other hand, Fran says that practice (experience) will only allow me to reach a small part of my potential. "Practice and table time are not essential just to reach your full potential. They're essential to reach a small percentage of your potential."

So what will allow me to reach a large percentage of my potential? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

wolfdancer
05-29-2006, 05:06 PM
Dr. Dave, I'm also working something out using my thumb for measurement....so we can add a "rule of thumb"...to the "fingering" the angle out idea.
Let your fingers do the chalking.....

pooltchr
05-29-2006, 05:23 PM
Alright you guys...it takes BOTH! All the knowledge in the world won't get your game up without practice. And all the practice in the world isn't much good if you don't know what you are practicing. As one of my favorite instructors is fond of saying, "Knowledge isn't power unless application is included!".
One thing I do know...Knowledge stays with you longer. I am living proof. At 54 years old, my eyes aren't as sharp as they used to be, and my hands aren't as steady. Yet, I can win a match over a better shot maker who doesn't have the experience and knowledge. He may be able to "out-shoot" me, but often, I can "out-play" him.
You need to know what you want to happen, know how to make it happen, and have the experience and ability to make it happen. You can't take away any of those three and reach anywhere near your potential.
Steve

Fran Crimi
05-29-2006, 06:57 PM
C'mon guys, please don't turn this into something it's not. There's theory and there's practice. Experience is all-encompasing. There's absolutely no proof that someone who studies more theory than someone who doesn't will automatically perform better given that both practiced the same number of hours. It just doesn't work that way. But one thing is for sure: If you don't play, then you can't get good at the game. It's as simple as that. And that adds up to experience.


Fran

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 08:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolSharkAllen:</font><hr>So what will allow me to reach a large percentage of my potential?<hr /></blockquote>
I liked Steve's answer.

Here's my answer:
knowledge, technique, experience, talent, dedication, enthusiasm, competition, and lots of practice/play time (in no particular order, and maybe I've left some important items off).

I think to excel at any sport or endeavor, the list would be the same.

Regards,
Dave

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 09:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Dr. Dave, I'm also working something out using my thumb for measurement....so we can add a "rule of thumb"...to the "fingering" the angle out idea.
Let your fingers do the chalking..... <hr /></blockquote>
Cute. I would love to hear if you come up with a good "rule of thumb" for pool. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

The thumb can be used for the 90 degree rule (see NV 3.5 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV3-5.htm)); although, I admit this is not very useful because the perpendicular is so easy to visualize with or without the cue stick. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Catch you later,
Dave

Jal
05-29-2006, 10:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> C'mon guys, please don't turn this into something it's not. There's theory and there's practice. Experience is all-encompasing. There's absolutely no proof that someone who studies more theory than someone who doesn't will automatically perform better given that both practiced the same number of hours. It just doesn't work that way. But one thing is for sure: If you don't play, then you can't get good at the game. It's as simple as that. And that adds up to experience.


Fran <hr /></blockquote>If you're saying that the two are different things, I have to disagree. When you practice, you learn theory. Some of it can be obtained without ever approaching a pool table, indeed, much faster through reading about it than trying to tease it out of your experience.

Jim

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 06:34 AM
Well, I guess it's just a symantics issue, then. I view the concepts of theory and practice the way it's done in music. I was a music major in college for two years and practice and theory were considered two different things. Billiards is a performance art, just like playing an instrument. If you're saying that you learn information when you practice, sure, that's obvious, isn't it? But it's not condsidered 'theory' in the academic sense.

Based on those definitions I'm saying that theory alone isn't enough, and when Billy Bob says "I guess it requires experience," then to me, that's saying the same thing.

Fran

Billy_Bob
05-30-2006, 10:08 AM
How well do I play? (FYI - I've been playing seriously for about 3 or 4 years now.) Against pros, I wouldn't have a chance (yet). However locally there is a guy who has been playing for 20 years - pretty good player. I can regularly win against him now. Note that he lacks the knowledge part - the stuff most people here know. He has never read a book on pool and does not know how to turn on a computer.

There is another guy around here who is a fairly good "A" player, been playing 21 years, a break and run out type. Most people will not play him for practice/fun because he always wins. I like to play against him for fun now. I sometimes win. And I held the table against this guy and another very good player most of the morning a few weeks ago (my first time doing this ever). Also I sometimes win against this guy in tournaments now.

If I go play in something like a BCA regional tournament or money tournaments in a large city, I'm not going to do very well. But I have won 1st place around here many times and it is easy for me to get in the money (rural area and players not that good).

So what's the deal with knowledge/experience?

When I first started playing seriously, I did not *know* what I could or could not do. I did not know what shots were possible. I did not know what I could cut and what I had to bank for example. I was told a lot of misinformation.

Then I learned the truth - *reality*. I learned what is possible, what is not possible. I learned what I *should* be trying to do. You have the "rules of the game"... Well there is also the "physical rules of the balls/rails". I now know pretty much what is physically possible with shots and what is not physically possible. This is a BIG help!

I'm now attempting to make shots I know are possible, I know what I should be able to do. I am not attempting to make shots which I know are not possible. And I avoid low percentage shots if I can because I know it is not a sure thing.

This is where expericence comes in. I don't have the experience making many of these shots, so I can't always do what I am trying to do. But with time, I get better and better. And I am now on the "right track".

Then there is strategy for 8-ball. I've learned some things which give me an advantage over others. I can "think" my way to a win. So knowledge is a big help with this.

I guess you could say *correct* knowledge helps you to get the *right* experience more quickly, since you are working on things which are possible.

Then natural ability. I've been told I have a good "eye".

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 01:25 PM
Okay, so judging by your and Dave's posts, you both claim to be mediocre players at best and you're both implying that you would probably not be as good as you are without the addition of all the off-table information you have.

So are you both saying that you would be pretty darn awful without all this extra added information?

Just wondering....

Fran

Jal
05-30-2006, 03:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well, I guess it's just a symantics issue, then. I view the concepts of theory and practice the way it's done in music. I was a music major in college for two years and practice and theory were considered two different things. Billiards is a performance art, just like playing an instrument. If you're saying that you learn information when you practice, sure, that's obvious, isn't it? But it's not condsidered 'theory' in the academic sense.

Based on those definitions I'm saying that theory alone isn't enough, and when Billy Bob says "I guess it requires experience," then to me, that's saying the same thing.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>Given two people, one that has memorized charts and equations for five years, and another who has played for the same lenght of time, my money is on the player.

But some people, including yourself if I gather correctly, seem to have a revulsion toward the theory. I can sort of understand this in that when I used to read album covers which described the music inside, in inscrutable technical terms, it left me cold. It seemed to miss the point altogether: what was really great about the music, and which is probably indescibable.

You appreciate the art of a well played game and perhaps relish some of the mystery of it. Maybe that's why you're kind of hard on the "theoreticians" and suggest, if I'm reading you right, that the theory is useless, or at least has not proven itself to be useful. But isn't it true that "serious" musicians have to learn it?

To address your point directly, I think most of us do absorb it at the table, because most of us don't bother to crack open books and study the game during the formative years. So the "academic" part and the practice part are combined into one. A little booze also helps. But some of the academic part can be gleaned more efficiently away from the table. Billy Bob said it well, I think. It helps to know just what you're practicing.

Jim

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 03:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well, I guess it's just a symantics issue, then. I view the concepts of theory and practice the way it's done in music. I was a music major in college for two years and practice and theory were considered two different things. Billiards is a performance art, just like playing an instrument. If you're saying that you learn information when you practice, sure, that's obvious, isn't it? But it's not condsidered 'theory' in the academic sense.

Based on those definitions I'm saying that theory alone isn't enough, and when Billy Bob says "I guess it requires experience," then to me, that's saying the same thing.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>Given two people, one that has memorized charts and equations for five years, and another who has played for the same lenght of time, my money is on the player.

But some people, including yourself if I gather correctly, seem to have a revulsion toward the theory. I can sort of understand this in that when I used to read album covers which described the music inside, in inscrutable technical terms, it left me cold. It seemed to miss the point altogether: what was really great about the music, and which is probably indescibable.

You appreciate the art of a well played game and perhaps relish some of the mystery of it. Maybe that's why you're kind of hard on the "theoreticians" and suggest, if I'm reading you right, that the theory is useless, or at least has not proven itself to be useful. But isn't it true that "serious" musicians have to learn it?

To address your point directly, I think most of us do absorb it at the table, because most of us don't bother to crack open books and study the game during the formative years. So the "academic" part and the practice part are combined into one. A little booze also helps. But some of the academic part can be gleaned more efficiently away from the table. Billy Bob said it well, I think. It helps to know just what you're practicing.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>


Correct me if I'm wrong here, but are you saying that I have a revulsion towards theory and it's because I enjoy the mystery of not knowing? You know...that special je ne sais quois that I relish so much?

Or perhaps I'm among those who are too lazy to bother to open a book? Maybe a little booze here or there to help things along?



You're kidding, right?

pooltchr
05-30-2006, 04:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Given two people, one that has memorized charts and equations for five years, and another who has played for the same lenght of time, my money is on the player. <hr /></blockquote>

You are probably correct. But how about the one player who practices 4 hours a day for a month, and another who practices 2 hours a day and spends 2 hours learning the physics, geometry, and all the rest of the "theory" stuff. Now, who do you put your money on? Yes, you need to put time on the table, but how effective is that time if you don't understand what it is you are trying to accomplish?
Balance!!!!!!!
Steve

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 06:40 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr> Given two people, one that has memorized charts and equations for five years, and another who has played for the same lenght of time, my money is on the player. <hr /></blockquote>

You are probably correct. But how about the one player who practices 4 hours a day for a month, and another who practices 2 hours a day and spends 2 hours learning the physics, geometry, and all the rest of the "theory" stuff. Now, who do you put your money on? Yes, you need to put time on the table, but how effective is that time if you don't understand what it is you are trying to accomplish?
Balance!!!!!!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Tell us, Steve, who would YOU put your money on? As for me, I'd like to see them both play first. But, hey that's just my opinion. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Fran

pooltchr
05-31-2006, 04:09 AM
Fran,
Seeing them play would make it easier, but without that, my money would have to be on the one who both studied, learned and practiced.
I'm sure you have had students come to you who have already put in many hours on a table, yet saw significant improvement after you shared your knowledge with them. Personally, I had over 30 years experience before I went to an instructor...and that was what really helped my game improve...along with practicing the things I learned in school.
Steve

cushioncrawler
05-31-2006, 04:48 AM
Yes -- for me -- Believing iz Seeing.

dr_dave
05-31-2006, 06:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Fran,
Seeing them play would make it easier, but without that, my money would have to be on the one who both studied, learned and practiced.
I'm sure you have had students come to you who have already put in many hours on a table, yet saw significant improvement after you shared your knowledge with them. Personally, I had over 30 years experience before I went to an instructor...and that was what really helped my game improve...along with practicing the things I learned in school.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>
Amen!

Dave

dr_dave
05-31-2006, 06:49 AM
Below is what I think is a pretty thorough (and useful) answer to the question: "Where will the cue ball go?"

For a stun shot, most people know the right answer: in the tangent line direction, perpendicular to the OB direction. This is the 90 degree rule (see my Jan '04 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/jan04.pdf)). If you want a more precise answer that accounts for various effects (e.g., friction and English), see my March-June '05 articles (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/index.html).

For a rolling CB, the cue ball changes direction by about 30 degrees for a wide range of cut shots (1/4 to 3/4 ball hit). This is the 30 degree rule (see my April '04 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/april04.pdf)). If you want to be more precise, the angle is a little more (about 34 degrees) closer to a 1/2-ball hit and a little less (about 27 degrees) closer to a 1/4-ball or 3/4-ball hit. If you want to know how to account for speed effects, see my June '05 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/june05.pdf). If you want an easy way to use your hand to accurately visualize the cue ball direction, use the Dr. Dave peace-sign technique (see NV 3.8 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV3-8.htm)). If you want to know how to precisely calibrate your hand for the 30 degree (or any other) angle, see the posting concerning Billy_Bob's finger technique (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227266&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=).

For a draw shot with good draw action, the trisect system is your answer (see my March '06 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/march06.pdf)). You can use a modified version of the peace-sign technique to predict the cue ball direction (see the article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/march06.pdf) for illustrations and examples).

For shots "in between" all of these different cases, the cue ball will go somewhere in between the indicated directions. The only way to get a feel for how much "in between" the cue ball will go is to practice (Fran should like this part /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif).

Regards,
Dave

PS: More info and discussion concerning all of these principles can be found in the thread summary section of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

dr_dave
05-31-2006, 07:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Okay, so judging by your and Dave's posts, you both claim to be mediocre players at best and you're both implying that you would probably not be as good as you are without the addition of all the off-table information you have.

So are you both saying that you would be pretty darn awful without all this extra added information?

Just wondering....

Fran <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, we all can't be as good as you. /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

As we have all pointed out, it takes lots of table time to truly excel.

Concerning "mediocre," how do you define this term? I certainly don't consider myself just "mediocre," but my definition might be radically different than yours.

Concerning the importance of knowledge in the learning process and in reaching your full potential, I think you give it much less credit than it is due. If I were stripped of all of my pool knowledge, I would be a far worse player and it would take me much, much longer to improve further. Knowledge and information is good (although I agree with you that it is not enough).

Respectfully,
Dave

Eric.
05-31-2006, 08:03 AM
Dave,

I'm not Fran, so forgive me for jumping in. I don't think Fran was putting you and B_Bob's abilities down. What I got from her posts and my personal experience is that you need both knowledge and practice/table time to excel in Pool. The game relies on knowledge for strategy and shot selection and practice time for being able to execute what you know. My guess is that most players suffer from their abitilies lagging behind their know-how. I know I see it all the time; knowing what to do vs. actually putting it on the table are what separates players.

Personally, I think I would concentrate 1/3 of my time on gaining knowledge and 2/3 of my time on actually honing my physical skills. While know-how is important, the "majority of importance" lies in table time.

This, of course, is purely IMO.


Eric

Qtec
05-31-2006, 08:39 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If I were stripped of all of my pool knowledge, I would be a far worse player <hr /></blockquote>

Do you know that for sure Dave?

Qtec..............

dr_dave
05-31-2006, 11:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Dave,

I'm not Fran, so forgive me for jumping in. I don't think Fran was putting you and B_Bob's abilities down. What I got from her posts and my personal experience is that you need both knowledge and practice/table time to excel in Pool. The game relies on knowledge for strategy and shot selection and practice time for being able to execute what you know. My guess is that most players suffer from their abitilies lagging behind their know-how. I know I see it all the time; knowing what to do vs. actually putting it on the table are what separates players.

Personally, I think I would concentrate 1/3 of my time on gaining knowledge and 2/3 of my time on actually honing my physical skills. While know-how is important, the "majority of importance" lies in table time.

This, of course, is purely IMO.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>
Eric,

I would agree with your 1/3 knowledge, 2/3 practice mix as a good balance for most players. Although, for top pro players, a 1/10 (or less), 9/10 (or more) mix might be more appropriate. Most pros probably won't benefit from much additional knowledge; although, this might not be true for all pros. My impression from Fran's posts is that she thinks the balance for most people should be much different. Fran, if you are out there, please share with us what you think is an appropriate balance for players at different levels.

Thanks for your post,
Dave

dr_dave
05-31-2006, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr><blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>If I were stripped of all of my pool knowledge, I would be a far worse player<hr /></blockquote>
Do you know that for sure Dave?<hr /></blockquote>
Yes. I am absolutely sure. I guess that ends that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

However, this is one experiment in which I would never want to participate. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Regards,
Dave

PS: How's that peace-sign nose calibration working out for you? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

RonMont
05-31-2006, 12:12 PM
One gains knowledge through observation and study. Experence is gained by application.
When you give a lession don't you try to impart knowledge?
Or do you just watch you student play hoping he/she is getting better by experence.
I think you or splitting hairs with Dr.Dave just for the sake of argument.

Fran Crimi
05-31-2006, 01:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> Dave,

I'm not Fran, so forgive me for jumping in. I don't think Fran was putting you and B_Bob's abilities down. What I got from her posts and my personal experience is that you need both knowledge and practice/table time to excel in Pool. The game relies on knowledge for strategy and shot selection and practice time for being able to execute what you know. My guess is that most players suffer from their abitilies lagging behind their know-how. I know I see it all the time; knowing what to do vs. actually putting it on the table are what separates players.

Personally, I think I would concentrate 1/3 of my time on gaining knowledge and 2/3 of my time on actually honing my physical skills. While know-how is important, the "majority of importance" lies in table time.

This, of course, is purely IMO.


Eric <hr /></blockquote>


Smoooooooch...

That's a kiss on the cheek, Eric. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks and of course that's what I meant. Just a guess on my part, but I think the 1/3 part may be substantially less in the early stages of development.

You're advanced, so 1/3 for you might be about right. Impossible to be specific on this kind of stuff.

Fran

Billy_Bob
05-31-2006, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>...So are you both saying that you would be pretty darn awful without all this extra added information?...<hr /></blockquote>

I would not know the difference between poking and stroking. (Still working on that.)

I would probably still be shooting bank shots instead of cut shots to avoid scratching and missing many of these shots. I would not be sure if the cut was a scratch shot or not. (30/90 degree rule stuff)

I would not know which cut shots were possible and which were not. (Cue ball outside of tangent stuff.) So again I would attempt banks on these shots and make fewer shots.

Would miss shots when using english and would not be able to make long shots while using english. (Backhand/front hand english, low deflection shaft stuff, pivot point on cue.) Probably would not be able to use english and would not understand what it was for. It would be a mystery thing!

Would not know about sandpaper tip shaping and various tips available on internet - so this would mess up my ability to follow a specific distance and draw a specific distance *consistently*. (I would still be tip tapping, using cruddy tips, and would not know I need to chalk well before each shot. i.e. My tip surface would not be consistent, so draw distance would be anyone's guess as it was before I solved this problem.)

Would not recognize cluster shots or know what to do (99 critical shots stuff)

Probably would not be able to leave position for my next shot, nor would I know I should do this (30/90 degree rules and Jimmy Reid videos.)

Would not be as good at shot making because I would never have learned about progressive and opposite practice.

And on and on.

Actually there are some local players who have been playing just as long as I have and just as much if not more. These players have not read any books and they don't know how to use a computer. They never get into the money in tournaments whereas I can usually get into the money easily and have won 1st place many times (Local weekly tournaments that is - big city I can't get into the money usually.)

Also I have noticed that the players who frequently get into the money in local 8-ball tournaments also do not play the lottery or video poker typically. They tend to be more intellegent types. I left a copy of Dr. Dave's book there and they only players who looked at it were the best players who usually win!

I think the best players and those who improve the fastest are in the "learn all you can" club. Of course they play a lot and practice too.

bsmutz
05-31-2006, 02:30 PM
I think in general we tend to learn more than we can ever possibly use. It is only when we are confronted with a new situation or endeavor that we can use our education to determine the correct course of action. Usually our education comes from a source outside of ourselves and we usually have some information to use prior to actually experiencing something. I've always learned best by doing rather than by hearing or reading. A balanced combination of experience and learning from someone who has experience seems to be the ideal situation. When I first started playing as a kid, I basically only had hazy information remembered from the Donald Duck film I saw in school. There were no other sources that I knew of available to me. Everything I learned was from my own experience. I did not progress very far (by comparison), even with lots of table time. Now I can read tons of information every day. I can't use it all. It's too much. I have a stack of drills that would take months to complete if I did a couple every day. What I have found is that one concept can have a pretty dramatic affect on my ability. I can name 4 or 5 things that have really helped me. If I took the time, I could probably list 100 things that I have learned that really didn't help very much, if at all. There are probably several things that I have learned that would help if I could only remember them when needed (or at all, lol).
I think about Willie Mosconi playing with potatoes and coins on his desk at school. He wasn't putting in table time, perse, but he was formulating ideas and gaining knowledge that would later serve him well when he did get to spend time on the table. I don't think you can discount learning off the table or experience on the table when talking about this game. I think if you are smart, you will use both.

Still can't believe Jal practically called Fran an illiterate alcoholic with no use for theory... /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Bob_Jewett
05-31-2006, 05:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr>... When I first started playing as a kid, I basically only had hazy information remembered from the Donald Duck film I saw in school. There were no other sources that I knew of available to me. Everything I learned was from my own experience. ... <hr /></blockquote>
And when I started playing, the only books readily available were Mosconi's newer book, Hoppe's book, and Cottingham's book which was harder to find. There was also a small book on snooker (Holt's "Teach Yourself Billiards and Snooker") which is were I learned about the half-ball or natural angle (AKA 30-degree rule).

There was more information in those three or four small books than I could really understand, and there were errors in them that I didn't figure out until years later. Important errors that caused me to miss balls because I believed the authors.

These days, I usually buy "one of each" of everything I find in Borders or the local billiard supply store that carries books. Even so, at the BCA Nationals a few weeks ago, I got $250 worth of books that I hadn't seen before. I think that's far more information than any beginner can handle, and that was all published in just one year.

What's a beginner to do? I'd suggest they get a single, good book and an instructor who is capable of explaining each part of it including why parts of it are wrong. Maybe they should also visit the on-line forums, but they need to have a chaff meter at hand.

cushioncrawler
05-31-2006, 10:43 PM
Buying books is good, but -- the best thing for a beginner to do, is -- write a book on pool (or billiards).

Qtec
06-01-2006, 02:39 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Yes. I am absolutely sure. I guess that ends that.
<hr /></blockquote>

Dave, Jimmy White was world amateur champ and he couldnt read or write. If you asked the top 64 snooker profs 'how many degrees is a 1/2 ball cut?'- I would be surprised if any could tell you.


Lats say a kid thats been playing 1 year decides to take a lesson! Beforehand he comes to this board and for a month reads the threads od throw, aiming systems etc /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

During the leson the instructor says, "I want you to play this shot with a little IE".
Kid thinks, "English= Throw, squirt!!! Yikes."
Immediately the kid gets out his printout from Platinum Billiards, looks up the pivot length for a 314 P and gets the measuring tape out of his case! After this he considers that he will have to calculate the SIT and the CIT, so he gets a pen and paper out. "Mmm, what about cue elevation?".
Kid gets down to play the shot but the rail forces him to move his bridge which totally f%$#s up the whole plan, kid collapses on the floor having a fit, never to hit a ball again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If he had asked me, I would have said, "just hit it a bit thinner."

The first thing a beginner should be doing is learning how to use a cue effectively. You can only do that on a table and you will learn it quickest with an instructor. You wont learn that from a book or on a forum because its about feel.
IMO, pool/snooker is [ roughly] about 70% technique, 25% mentality and 5% knowledge. And most of that knowledge comes from actual playing experience.

Qtec

cushioncrawler
06-01-2006, 05:01 AM
Just thinkuvwhat Jimmy couldadunnifhehadda Balaburpka or a Munkie or a Saint-Pete or a Schooner. I agree -- the cue addz upta 0.00%. More wine.

dr_dave
06-01-2006, 06:50 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Dave, Jimmy White was world amateur champ and he couldnt read or write.<hr /></blockquote>
What's your point? Knowledge doesn't have to come from books; although for people that can read, book-learned knowledge might help speed their practice-based learning process. Also, I bet Jimmy spent a lot more time at the table, and had more natural talent, than most people do.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>If you asked the top 64 snooker profs 'how many degrees is a 1/2 ball cut?'- I would be surprised if any could tell you.<hr /></blockquote>
I would also be surprised, but how is that important? I know the answer is 30 degrees, but I don't think that is useful information. Now, knowing about the "natural angle" of the cue ball and knowing about an accurate way to visualize that direction (e.g., the calibrated peace-sign trick) ... that's useful knowledge, especially if you haven't put in enough table time to "just know" where the ball will go.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>Lats say a kid thats been playing 1 year decides to take a lesson! Beforehand he comes to this board and for a month reads the threads od throw, aiming systems etc /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

During the leson the instructor says, "I want you to play this shot with a little IE".
Kid thinks, "English= Throw, squirt!!! Yikes."
Immediately the kid gets out his printout from Platinum Billiards, looks up the pivot length for a 314 P and gets the measuring tape out of his case! After this he considers that he will have to calculate the SIT and the CIT, so he gets a pen and paper out. "Mmm, what about cue elevation?".
Kid gets down to play the shot but the rail forces him to move his bridge which totally f%$#s up the whole plan, kid collapses on the floor having a fit, never to hit a ball again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If he had asked me, I would have said, "just hit it a bit thinner."

The first thing a beginner should be doing is learning how to use a cue effectively. You can only do that on a table and you will learn it quickest with an instructor. You wont learn that from a book or on a forum because its about feel.<hr /></blockquote>

That's a great and relevant story, and I agree with you 100%. A beginner needs to first develop technique. The most important early knowledge should involve the fundamentals (stance, grip, bridge, stroke, basic aiming, etc.).

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>IMO, pool/snooker is [ roughly] about 70% technique, 25% mentality and 5% knowledge. And most of that knowledge comes from actual playing experience.<hr /></blockquote>
Those numbers sound reasonable; although, one could argue that the numbers might vary quite a bit from person to person based on their learning personality styles and years of experience. Also, I would suggest that parts of the "technique" and "mentality" components might also benefit from some knowledge; although, practice and experience are obviously the most important factors with these components.

Regards,
Dave

Eric.
06-01-2006, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Eric,

I would agree with your 1/3 knowledge, 2/3 practice mix as a good balance for most players. Although, for top pro players, a 1/10 (or less), 9/10 (or more) mix might be more appropriate. Most pros probably won't benefit from much additional knowledge; although, this might not be true for all pros. My impression from Fran's posts is that she thinks the balance for most people should be much different. Fran, if you are out there, please share with us what you think is an appropriate balance for players at different levels.

Thanks for your post,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

The percentages I used are just a flip answer. From my personal experience, I see a lot of players that know things but can't execute them reliably. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when I hear a player that seems to have all the answers, but just can't play that well. These are also the same players that are always moaning and b!tchin about a shot they missed, or a blown safety when, in reality, they just don't realize the difference between being able to make the shot and being able to make the shot at a high percentage. In otherwords, they're not as good as they think they are.

The flip side of having knowledge with out the experience and ability is that someone just can't understand the finer points and exact application of that knowledge. For example, someone can tell someone all the info on how to cut a ball in the hole and leave the CB at this spot but until they physically do it til it's burned into their deep memory, it's not gonna help them much. IMO, knowledge can only get you so far. someone can have all the secrets of Pool but if they can't execute, they're never gonna be better than a "C" player. Knowledge is easier to learn, quickly. Physical skill and being able to put it on the table is the hard part. Table time, more for some, less for the talented, is what gets players over a ceiling that most people can get to but have a hard time crossing. All the knowledge in the world ain't gonna help you from there.

Of course I'm not ignoring the fact that you have to have knowledge mixed in as well. It's just that Sophomore players are under the impression that newly aquired Pool knowledge means thier games have improved dramatically. While that may hold true at the lower levels, once you approach mid level amateur, gaining more knowledge will have a much smaller impact on your game.


Eric

Scott Lee
06-01-2006, 01:40 PM
Eric...tap, tap, tap! Well put!

Scott Lee

dr_dave
06-01-2006, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> Eric,

I would agree with your 1/3 knowledge, 2/3 practice mix as a good balance for most players. Although, for top pro players, a 1/10 (or less), 9/10 (or more) mix might be more appropriate. Most pros probably won't benefit from much additional knowledge; although, this might not be true for all pros. My impression from Fran's posts is that she thinks the balance for most people should be much different. Fran, if you are out there, please share with us what you think is an appropriate balance for players at different levels.

Thanks for your post,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

The percentages I used are just a flip answer. From my personal experience, I see a lot of players that know things but can't execute them reliably. It's always been a pet peeve of mine when I hear a player that seems to have all the answers, but just can't play that well. These are also the same players that are always moaning and b!tchin about a shot they missed, or a blown safety when, in reality, they just don't realize the difference between being able to make the shot and being able to make the shot at a high percentage. In otherwords, they're not as good as they think they are.

The flip side of having knowledge with out the experience and ability is that someone just can't understand the finer points and exact application of that knowledge. For example, someone can tell someone all the info on how to cut a ball in the hole and leave the CB at this spot but until they physically do it til it's burned into their deep memory, it's not gonna help them much. IMO, knowledge can only get you so far. someone can have all the secrets of Pool but if they can't execute, they're never gonna be better than a "C" player. Knowledge is easier to learn, quickly. Physical skill and being able to put it on the table is the hard part. Table time, more for some, less for the talented, is what gets players over a ceiling that most people can get to but have a hard time crossing. All the knowledge in the world ain't gonna help you from there.

Of course I'm not ignoring the fact that you have to have knowledge mixed in as well. It's just that Sophomore players are under the impression that newly aquired Pool knowledge means thier games have improved dramatically. While that may hold true at the lower levels, once you approach mid level amateur, gaining more knowledge will have a much smaller impact on your game.<hr /></blockquote>
Eric,

Excellent post! Well stated!

Your last sentence is the only one I'm not so sure about. I have seen many players I would consider above "mid level amateur" that I think could benefit a lot from some useful knowledge (with an open mind and a desire to learn).

Regards,
Dave

Eric.
06-01-2006, 02:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr>
Eric,

Excellent post! Well stated!

Your last sentence is the only one I'm not so sure about. I have seen many players I would consider above "mid level amateur" that I think could benefit a lot from some useful knowledge (with an open mind and a desire to learn).

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Dave.

Basically, I was saying that most B to A level players have plenty of knowledge for now. The anchor holding them back is ability. Being able to perfect and use the knowledge is the trick. Using myself as an example, I have comparable knowledge of the game ie. kicking, position routes, tangent lines and all that other crap, as other players better than me. In some cases, I know more than the better players. The key word is that they are BETTER players than me.


Eric

PoolSharkAllen
06-01-2006, 07:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>
Basically, I was saying that most B to A level players have plenty of knowledge for now. The anchor holding them back is ability. Being able to perfect and use the knowledge is the trick. Using myself as an example, I have comparable knowledge of the game ie. kicking, position routes, tangent lines and all that other crap, as other players better than me. In some cases, I know more than the better players. The key word is that they are BETTER players than me.

Eric <hr /></blockquote>

I think there's another aspect that differentiates stronger players from weaker players and that is having the ability to think creatively as well as being able to analyze and solve strategic and tactical problems at the table.

Qtec
06-01-2006, 08:15 PM
Thats the difference btween 9ball and 8ball. I think 10 ball is a good idea.

Qtec

Qtec
06-01-2006, 08:20 PM
When I,m on the tee I can see the green...............but /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Q

DickLeonard
06-02-2006, 05:38 AM
Cushioncrawler, I wouldn't say write a book but keep a note book and write down your daily thoughts. Sometimes when the Bulb goes off if it isn't written down it gets pushed to the back of the mind.

Now I have to go find my note books, it's been years since I opened them up. When I find them I will share my thoughts.####