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Karatemom
07-09-2002, 06:18 AM
For some reason, I can not comprehend where to hit on the ob on a cut shot. I have tried what seems like every method out there, but I still can't get it. I know practice will eventually teach me where, assuming I learn from my mistakes.

Was just wondering how everyone else here does it.

Heide ~ my biggest problem, today!!

Kato
07-09-2002, 06:21 AM
I just miss 'em. Actually Heide, my cut shots are a sight better since I moved to a center ball attack on them. I play everything on a feel method so I can't be of help with a system. I do feel that playing in the center of the cue ball seems to give a better aiming target when cutting a ball.

Kato~~~~gets the last 3 and the smash against KarateMom.

griffith_d
07-09-2002, 06:37 AM
Look at the OB and see the line (imaginary) to the pocket. That is where you hit the OB,..on the CB, it will be on the same place but the other side (contact point of CB). For sharper cuts you will have to apply outside english to make up for a throw (friction of the CB pushing the OB forward before it rolls toward the pocket).

This may not be the best explaination to envision, but it works.

Griff

JimS
07-09-2002, 07:17 AM
Hi Heide,

I'm sure that Chris has shown you the contact point, ghost ball and maybe the angle methods of aiming and those are the methods I've used and worked on. I use all three on every shot, but the ghost ball appears to be the most useful for me.

I combine the ghost ball method with seeing/feeling the angle and have a pretty good idea where to hit each shot. I used to try to imagine the angle from the ob to the target while standing behind the cb, but had problems seeing the correct angle. Now I walk around and stand behind the ob and draw a line from the target (maybe the back of the pocket, maybe the facing...depending on the shot) draw the line from the target through the center of the ob and on out to the opposide rail and make a mental note of where that point on the opposite rail is. When I get back to standing behind the cb I can "see" the line across the table and line up to intersect that line with the cb and "see" the cue ball in that line I've drawn.

This method of "drawing the angle line" clear across the table, whether it be the length or width of the table, has been very helpfull to me in finding the correct angle when I get back over the cb.

But, the bottom line is that, for me anyway, there is no substitute for hitting balls. I've been in a practice lull here lately pocketing only about 60 to 100 balls a day, but I was averaging over 200 balls a day pocketed, every day, and have pocketed about 23,000 balls since November last year. I'm getting pretty accurate now.

The more balls I hit the better I "see/feel" the angle and ghost ball. It's about as frustrating as any task I've ever taken on. I can't stand to miss!

Karatemom
07-09-2002, 07:44 AM
You're right, Jim. Chris has shown me everything. He's the main reason I play as well as I do. He has tried and tried to show me different points of view to cut shots in, but for some reason, I just can not comprehend hitting a 3D spherical object at one particular point.

I usually draw a line from the ob to the pocket and then aim at the point of contact. Last night, at the tourney, I tried using the ghost ball method, which I practiced for a few days ahead of time. I think I missed all but 2 or 3 cut shots.

I'm still up for more suggestions, but will try drawing the line from the pocket, through the ob, to the opposite rail and see if that helps. Thanks for the input.

Heide ~ always willing to try something new (most of the time)

stickman
07-09-2002, 09:02 AM
Good point Kato. I primarily use the same aiming system that Hiede uses. I stand behind the OB and visualize a straight line to the pocket and aim for the contact point directly across from that line of sight. I have shot this way since I first learned to play pool and find it very natural. Often I don't even feel the need to stand behind the OB to see the contact point. This works fine for me with a Center Ball Hit. Any time I use english I have to think about it momentarily and conciously adjust the aim for the english. I keep thinking that this will eventually become automatic and won't involve a concious thought process, but I've been doing it for years and it still hasn't happened yet. The compensation normally involves aiming at the edge of the pocket, rather than the center. It's always just a guess, depending on how much english I'm using on the CB. This is why I try not to use english unless it is necessary for position. Hiede, if you are having aiming problems, I would suggest staying away from english until you get the aiming problem figured out. Perhaps you aren't using english, but in case you are, this could be contributing the the problem.

Karatemom
07-09-2002, 10:50 AM
I play around with english, but not during tourneys. I have the same problem, not so sure how much I have to compensate for when using english. So, instead, I try to use just high, center, and draw. They work pretty good for me, for now anyway.

Heide

JimS
07-09-2002, 11:29 AM
Hey

About a year ago I was having big time problems with aiming and I remembered that Jeff Carter told me at my first ever lesson that he used the angle system for aiming. I asked him to be more specific and he couldn't. Just said that he saw the angle. At that time I couldn't figure out what he meant but a year or two down the road that technique all of a sudden just came to me. I could see/FEEL the angle to the pocket and without really "aiming", as I'd always done with the contact point method, I was knocking shots down easily.

At first it just "happened" and only happened once in a while but I worked on seeing that angle. I learned that the angle from the cb to the ob and the angle from the ob to the pocket always added up to 90 degrees and knowing this helped. I just got to the point where I could "feel" that the shot was on, "feel" the angle. I could "feel" that the cb was intersecting that angle from the ob to the pocket at the correct angle to add up to 90 degrees. It'll happen for you too with REPITITION.

Also...the aiming method posted by Phil helps to check the aim when I feel unsure that I've found the proper angle. After I've aimed sometimes it just doesn't look or "feel" right and I'll check to see if the shot is lined up with one of the three imaginary dots on the cb. One dot in the center, another half way between the center and each edge. If one of these dots is lined up with the EDGE of the ob then most cut shots are lined up correctly. This works on all cuts except for very thin cuts and almost straight in cuts.

One other thing that I learned that I was doing incorrectly. As I was down on the shot and fine tuning my aim I kept missing short of the pockets on many cuts.....that is...I was cutting too thin. I discovered that I was unconsciously aiming for the back of the pocket and that's where I was hitting the ob.....straight towards the back of the pocket. The problem was that the ob was hitting the rail before it got to the pocket because of the angle into the pocket. I SHOULD have been CONSCIOUSLY aiming for the facing of the pocket rather than unconsciously shooting at the back of the pocket. I needed to consciously pick out a PRECISE spot in the pocket or on the facing to aim at on every shot. Sometimes this spot IS on the back of the pocket, depending on the angle of the shot into the pocket, but often this precise and specific spot to aim the ob at is on the facing. Does that make sense? Chris can explain....THAT I KNOW!

I'm a much better shot maker after having listened to him and followed his instructions and done the freaking repititious drills that he recommended for me and you will be too. JUST DO IT AND IT WILL HAPPEN. I do wish there was a magic Mojo secret but there's not. REPETITION is the answer.

(got to like the thought of a Mojo workin)

phil in sofla
07-09-2002, 01:00 PM
Round things hitting round things accurately is difficult, which is why it's hard to hit a baseball with a baseball bat. It is quite hard to 'get' the geometry of the proper hit line by what seems logical, and as many of my league teammates would point out to me, looking at the object ball straight in the pocket to get the contact point is sometimes more a hindrance than a help, since once you get back to the cue ball, that object ball and the contact point on it look very different.

My thinking is that it isn't that hard at all to find where you must hit the object ball-- the trick is in knowing where to aim the cue ball to hit that contact point. Or to put it another way, you know where to hit the object ball, but do you know where that object ball contact point must hit **the cue ball**?

The answer to that question has already been given on this thread. If the contact point on the object ball is, say, 3/8 inch to the right of the left edge (cutting the ball to the right), the contact point on the cue ball is 3/8 inch to the left of its right edge. It is an equal amount in from the edge of the cue ball as it is in from the edge of the object ball (as seen from shooting position). So, you could line up through the cue ball at that 3/8 inch in from the edge line, to the contact point on the cue ball, and stroking straight through that line, the cut should go.

However, that would be putting a lot of English on the ball, hitting the cue ball well off center. To drive the cue ball to the same point without English, once you have that aim line, you simply parallel the cue stick over to the center of the ball.

Larry Chin gives this system, which he calls a two point system, a full book length treatment, showing how it applies to most pool shots, in his 'Billiards Accuracy,' or something like that.

heater451
07-09-2002, 05:01 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr> He [Chris] has tried and tried to show me different points of view to cut shots in, but for some reason, I just can not comprehend hitting a 3D spherical object at one particular point.<hr></blockquote>What kind of a learner are you? Do you learn well from diagrams? Can you comprehend hitting a 3D spherical object into a plane, or another (ghost ball) sherical object space?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr>I usually draw a line from the ob to the pocket and then aim at the point of contact. Last night, at the tourney, I tried using the ghost ball method, which I practiced for a few days ahead of time. I think I missed all but 2 or 3 cut shots.<hr></blockquote>I learned with the same basic combination, geometric-point/ghost ball, and I moved to "aim a little farther over"--vague, I know, but practice clears it up. In fact, I used to teach that, but my verbage was along the lines of, "because of the curvature of the ball, the cue ball will actually hit the object ball 'earlier' than necessary, so you need to adjust your aim accordingly. Again, I know that's vague, but I've been working on some diagrams since reading Phil's "Three cuts" thread. --I actually finished one with "center cue ball-to-object ball points", but then I figured that I should make some "edge of cue ball-to-object ball points" (a la Hal Houle). Then I started thinking about the "equal distance" system, which I've forgotten most of. . . .Well, you see what happened. . . .

I'll post some stuff, as soon as I can.

BTW, if anyone has any systems that need graphics, PM me, and I will try to interpret them as best I can.

============

Karatemom
07-09-2002, 10:03 PM
The whole concept still baffles me, but I'm too stubborn to just give up. Yes, I do learn well from diagrams. Telling me to do one thing and showing me how to do it are two different things. It is much easier for me to see exactly what happens when it is shown to me on paper. When Chris shoots the same shot, I see how it is done, but it is much harder for me to judge exactly where it is hit, etc. Tomorrow I have about 6 hours to practice, and will use that time wisely.

I do know what you mean by moving over from the contact point. It is much easier for me to see the point of contact and then move slightly to the outside of that point to aim, than it is to imagine a ghost ball in front of the ob.

Either way, will practice hard tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks!

Heide

07-10-2002, 12:58 AM
KarateMom, what I'm about to say is a leap from most of the posts I've seen here (with one exception, JimS). Forcing yourself to find the angle might be useful in the short-term but finding the correct angle is much easier when you allow your sub-conscious to do the work for you.

I thought baseball was a good analogy. Have you ever noticed that a professional baseball player is hitting a 95 mph fastball that isn't traveling in a straight line. To make matters worse, some are even capable of hitting it 500 feet! The best players will say that they're simply allowing their "natural ability" to perform. Unfortunately, those that fail will often follow a similar logic and deduce that they have no natural ability and therefore are destined to fail.

The fact is, this deduction can be no further from the truth. Allowing your natural ability to find the angle on it's own is truly the way most successful poolplayers sight the ball. However, that doesn't mean that anyone can immediately step into a poolroom, throw the balls on the table and proceed to run 100 balls. Quite the contrary. A professional poolplayer is a seasoned, fine-tuned pocketing machine. This player has spent countless hours practicing shots over and over again. The fact is, this repetitive process doesn't paint a conscious picture in their heads to work with. The brain is far more complicated then that. The brain actually processes the necessary requirements to make the ball on its own, without any real help from the conscious mind.

The more you practice, the more your brain will naturally pick up on the subtlties of pool. However, in order to allow this to work, you have to be able to trust the learning process and trust your subconscious to play the game for you. In the beginning, it's going to make mistakes but if you continue to practice, those mistakes will be worked out automatically.

If I were you, I would start by going to the poolroom and asking the manager who the best players in the house are. I would then sit as closely to their table as possible without disturbing them. Then, I would just watch them play for an hour or two. Don't take any notes on how they hold the cue or where their feet are or how fast they shoot. Just simply watch the game as though you were a referee.

Afterward, grab a table and tell yourself to immitate what you just saw. Let your body fall naturally into the stance that you saw this better player take. Then let go and allow yourself to play without any expectations. The key here is to not try and take-over what your subconscious is already capable of doing. This really does require an incredible amount of trust. People like to feel as though they're in control but the fact is, the mind doesn't work that way.

I know that this may not be the cureall that you were looking for but it's really the best way to work out any deficiencies you might be experiencing in your game. Don't try harder, just continue trying.

Jude M. Rosenstock

Karatemom
07-10-2002, 05:48 AM
You make a lot of sense, Jude. After reading your post, I think my problem is impatience. Thanks for the insight.

Heide ~ watches Chris' every move on the table

Karatemom
07-10-2002, 05:59 AM
Well, then, what good are ya? LOL Actually, I was afraid you'd say that. I get the feeling that cut shots, and every other shot for that matter, are not about thinking about where to hit it to make it; it's about knowing and not thinking. Jude just posted exactly that. I practice alot, for me, just not enough yet, I guess. Going up to the ph today and will practice for about 6 hours, and then again Friday.

Heide ~ will take the 6 out from Kato, LOL

cheesemouse
07-10-2002, 06:28 AM
Karatemom,
Judes advise to 'just keep trying' is the key. Evenually you will be playing in one of these tournaments and you will play out of your skull. Later when you review your good play you will realize you can't remember what system you were using but rather just stepping out of the way of your highly trained body and letting it do the job at hand...it will be the fruits of your labor. I'll bet Chris is very pleased that his soul mate has taken up the cue once again. I can't wait for your post that begins: I beat the old man last night.

Karatemom
07-10-2002, 06:31 AM
hahahahahahahahaha

Right now, I'm lucky if I can beat my son. But there will come a day when I beat Chris, hopefully sooner than later, LOL.

Heide ~ likes the Cheese, too

cheesemouse
07-10-2002, 06:38 AM
Karatemom,
If we ever meet you and I will take on both your little boys in scotch doubles and give them the spanking that I'm sure they deserve...heheheheh /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

JimS
07-10-2002, 06:42 AM
Jude, I think you've said it very well! Chris talks about left brain, right brain stuff and that's, I think, what you are saying.

As I've progressed I've found that I have to use my cognitive processes while I'm standing over the shot figuring out what I want/need to do but when I get down on the shot I need to "let go" and just let "my body" do what it has learned to do. "It" knows how to shoot the shot.....I just need to let go of the control and TRUST it to do the job.

That's not an easy transformation for me to make...even in a practice session, not to mention when in competition! But the important thing is that I've learned in practice sessions that when/if I do succeed in letting go my body does indeed know what to do and it does it pretty well! The process WORKS!

Coach has had me hit so many balls in drilling that my body does indeed know how to get the job done if my all important thinking processes will just shut up, get out of the way and let the body do it's job.

RELAX AND HAVE FUN!

phil in sofla
07-10-2002, 10:36 AM
Just read something that might be worth considering.

According to Jack Koehler's 'The Physics of Pool,' or whatever similar name it's called, a very common reason for otherwise inexplicable 'slumps' for shooters is accidentally and unwittingly moving the head to a tilted position instead of a level position. People doing this normally don't know they're doing it, and are surprised to learn of it.

Even something so seemingly innocuous as changing your distance from your eyes to the cue ball can play havok with depth perception and how well you see the lines. That is the main reason, I think, that many instructors like players to use a locked out bridge arm, always the same distance from from your eyes to your bridge. Those who teach that mention that when you see pros going to a bent arm bridge, they typically set up exactly the same amount of bend, so they are regularizing even that change, when they make it.

I think I understand you're saying this isn't so much about a slump, exactly, but a beginning struggle to see the lines, period, not some sudden thing that dropped your performance for no apparent reason. Still, it could be that some of these sighting variations are creeping into your mechanics, and preventing you from learning to see these as quickly as you might otherwise.

Think about making your bridging arm a constant, and have someone take a look at your head when shooting, to make sure your eyes are level on the horizontal plane. And, of course, you'll want your dominant eye over the cue's line, unless you're already set on a mid-eye sight line for cueing. If you are, you might consider switching the sight line over to exactly under your dominant eye.

07-10-2002, 11:06 AM
See, my problem with sighting mechanical flaws is that more often then not, instructors will view this as the cause of the problem and not the result of one. Kind of like a chicken and egg line of logic.

Lemme explain: Ever notice that when you steer your cue, you almost inevitably miss? The typical instructor will say that the twist caused the shooter to miss the shot. I believe the contrary. Missing caausd the player to twist and it was the shooter's subconscious in contradiction with the conscious mind that caused such an awkward stroke. Nobody wants to steer but we all do from time to time. The reason stems from the fact that our conscious thought process is determining a contact point that is inconsistent with what our subconscious has automatically deduced. The two sides of the brain are not in agreement.

I'm certain you'll find a ton of books that will contradict my statement. Hell, if we all knew the great poolplayer was already within us, what would instructors make their living off of? It is important to have mechanical flaws pointed out but I honestly think that most of them are bi-products of a greater problem rather then the problem itself.

Jude M. Rosenstock

07-10-2002, 11:08 AM
See, my problem with sighting mechanical flaws is that more often then not, instructors will view this as the cause of the problem and not the result of one. Kind of like a chicken and egg line of logic.

Lemme explain: Ever notice that when you steer your cue, you almost inevitably miss? The typical instructor will say that the twist caused the shooter to miss the shot. I believe the contrary. Missing caausd the player to twist and it was the shooter's subconscious in contradiction with the conscious mind that caused such an awkward stroke. Nobody wants to steer but we all do from time to time. The reason stems from the fact that our conscious thought process is determining a contact point that is inconsistent with what our subconscious has automatically deduced. The two sides of the brain are not in agreement.

I'm certain you'll find a ton of books that will contradict my statement. Hell, if we all knew the great poolplayer was already within us, what would instructors make their living off of? It is important to have mechanical flaws pointed out but I honestly think that most of them are bi-products of a greater problem rather then the problem itself.

Jude M. Rosenstock

SPetty
07-10-2002, 01:54 PM
Wow, Jude. I can't wait to hear more from you! You're right, I've never heard this explanation before, and it sounds so right!

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jude Rosenstock:</font><hr> Lemme explain: Ever notice that when you steer your cue, you almost inevitably miss? The typical instructor will say that the twist caused the shooter to miss the shot. I believe the contrary. Missing caausd the player to twist and it was the shooter's subconscious in contradiction with the conscious mind that caused such an awkward stroke. Nobody wants to steer but we all do from time to time. The reason stems from the fact that our conscious thought process is determining a contact point that is inconsistent with what our subconscious has automatically deduced. The two sides of the brain are not in agreement.<hr></blockquote>

SPetty
07-10-2002, 02:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: JimS:</font><hr>I learned that the angle from the cb to the ob and the angle from the ob to the pocket always added up to 90 degrees and knowing this helped. I just got to the point where I could "feel" that the shot was on, "feel" the angle. I could "feel" that the cb was intersecting that angle from the ob to the pocket at the correct angle to add up to 90 degrees. It'll happen for you too with REPITITION.

<hr></blockquote>Well, I was really hoping someone else would ask about this... Is it that I'm the only one that's never heard this before?

Would someone please expand on this concept for me? I don't quite get it, but I've never heard it before!

SPetty~~feeling totally ignorant today!

Ross
07-10-2002, 02:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> &lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: JimS:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt;I learned that the angle from the cb to the ob and the angle from the ob to the pocket always added up to 90 degrees and knowing this helped. I just got to the point where I could "feel" that the shot was on, "feel" the angle. I could "feel" that the cb was intersecting that angle from the ob to the pocket at the correct angle to add up to 90 degrees. It'll happen for you too with REPITITION.

&lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Well, I was really hoping someone else would ask about this... Is it that I'm the only one that's never heard this before?

Would someone please expand on this concept for me? I don't quite get it, but I've never heard it before!

SPetty~~feeling totally ignorant today!
<hr></blockquote>
I don't think it is you. As written it isn't clear what is meant. For example, what is the "angle from the cb to the ob"? Two points don't have an angle, they are just connected by a straight line. It takes a third point or a second straight line to get an angle. Furthermore, I can't think what angles would add up to 90 degrees. If I cut the ball 30 degrees to the left, and it goes right into the pocket, what angle is always equal to 60 degrees? I don't mean to be critical - just saying that it is not clear what is meant here.

Chris Cass
07-10-2002, 05:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr> hahahahahahahahaha

Right now, I'm lucky if I can beat my son. But there will come a day when I beat Chris, hopefully sooner than later, LOL.

Heide ~ likes the Cheese, too <hr></blockquote>

Ya that's gonna happen.

LMAO,

C.C.

Chris Cass
07-10-2002, 06:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: cheesemouse:</font><hr> Karatemom,
If we ever meet you and I will take on both your little boys in scotch doubles and give them the spanking that I'm sure they deserve...heheheheh /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif <hr></blockquote>

Don't know about the spanking. She did hit me on the butt with her cue today. She never did that. Matter of fact that's never happened to me before and Heide, isn't the type either. After thinking about it, I kinda liked it. LOLLOL

You will meet us one day Cheese, but spank lil' Christ and me? That's not happening either. We'll, have a triathlon Cass style. One game of Scotch 1 hole, Scotch banks, and 9 ball. Who, ever wins gets one of your yellow toys. I'll take the Mercedes, Christ wants the ATV. You guys can have the Taurus and the payment book. hahahah

C.C.

TonyM
07-10-2002, 06:23 PM
Actually Jude, I think that you are probably quite correct. Quite often I feel that steering results when we attempt to get the cueball to go in a line that contradicts the line that we set the cue down on. We can see where we want the ball to go, but the cue is not actually pointing to that aim point. Our brain knows this, so it swerves the arm without conscious input to try and correct for this error. Usually, do to squirt, the resultant miss is actually in the opposite direction to what the arm was trying to correct! (think about it).

Often this happens because the player did not take care to put the cue down on the correct line. Also, it is possible to set the cue down on the correct line, but change the head position (tilt, or sideways movement) so that it now appears to be off-line.

One way that I trouble shoot for this problem is to try shooting the shot with my eyes closed. If the ball goes in with my eyes closed, but not with them open, then my line up was correct, but my head position is giving me a distorted perception of the cue line.

If I miss the shot with my eyes closed the same way as with them open, then my line up was incorrect.

You can also have someone stand behind you and check your alignment, but this is not always possible.

Tony

07-10-2002, 06:29 PM
Phil, That is the same system Jimmy Reid teaches for free on his website freepoollessons.com
Speaking of Jimmy's site, he has finally gotten his Members Only Site running. There is a ton of information in there. Jim R.

TonyM
07-10-2002, 06:32 PM
Yes I've heard of this system and it's been discussed here before. My main objection to it is still the same:

How the hell do I (or anyone else for that matter) "move the cue parallel" across the cueball with any kind of accuracy or consistency? I've tried it, I can't do it (I aim by "feel" - quite well thank you). I don't know of anyone that can do it, and I've tried to teach it to a few interested players and they couldn't do it either.

And yet that part of the system (the mechanical movement of the cue) is the most glossed over aspect of it! The part that is trivial, simple, anyone can do it, it's not that hard etc., etc.

I prefer to look down the cue and "see" what I'm aiming at. Call me crazy, but there you have it.

Tony
-been called crazy before .... will no doubt be called crazy again....

TonyM
07-10-2002, 06:40 PM
Well you aren't the only one! Lol!

Imagine a shot just off-of dead-on (say a 5 degree cut shot). What angles add-up to 90 degrees? Beats me. I can see an angle of 5 degrees between the line created from the cueball to object ball and the line created from the object ball to the pocket, but 90 degrees? Perhaps a case could be made for an angle of 175 degrees (180 - 5 degrees) but 90?

Hey Jim! What's up with the 90 degree stuff?

Tony
-enquiring minds want to know!.....

TonyM
07-10-2002, 06:44 PM
"I stand behind the OB and visualize a straight line to the pocket and aim for the contact point directly across from that line of sight"

Please tell me how you (or anyone else) ever make a ball doing this? If you aim the center of the cueball at the contact point you will undercut every ball! Or do you not aim the center of the cueball at the contact point? (point to point system?)

Otherwise you must subconsciously adjust your aiming point away from the contact point (that is thinner) to make the ball go.

Tony
-what gives?

07-10-2002, 06:45 PM
I was also confused. In fact I still am. I the the angle he's talking about is from the CB to the OB to the pocket. If that is what he's saying, I think he's wrong. The only time that would be true would be no a very thin hit. Jim R.

cheesemouse
07-10-2002, 06:50 PM
Chris,
I was thinking more along the lines of a denim baseball hat that the winner would get to wear, this hat would have great powers, for one month the wearer would have dicitorial power. You and the little guy would be doing loads of laundry, dishes, vacuuming, cooking and pealing grapes. Of course, I would leave my hat with your wife for a total of two months of power.....I can see you now with that frilly apron on.... LOL LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

TonyM
07-10-2002, 06:59 PM
One way to get an idea for the compensation required for english is to use the "back hand english" method of compensation. This requires an ability to aim the shot WITHOUT english, and then pivot the cue about the bridge hand to get the desired amount of sidespin. Then stroke the cue down the new aim line. If you make a note of the correct aim line while using this method, you will start to "see" how much compensation is required.

Note that your cue should have a pivot point that is near (or slightly longer imo) in length to your normal bridge length or you will need to use the two step "aim and pivot" method (see the RSB faq for details on pivot points etc.).

Many players when they are learning to use english make the mistaken assumption that one must "memorize" a large number of different aiming target points in order to master english. For example: Say you have two balls about a foot apart with a moderate cut angle (any cut angle, it doesn't matter). You want to add 1 tip of outside english for position (why else would you want to add english?). So you aim just a bit thinner than without sidepsin to compensate for squirt. Now you have the same cut angle, but the balls are 4 feet apart. Now you must aim a whole bunch thinner than normal to make the shot. Next you want to add 1.5 tips of sidespin, so you aim even thinner........ and so on.

You can learn to do it this way, but it requires memorizing a near infinite series of different aim points for different amounts of sidespin and distances between the cueball and object ball. It might seem like you will never get the hang of it!

What is missing here is that in reality there is not a series of different aim points. There is only a change in CUE ANGLE. So the idea is to memorize the cue angle required to use 1 tip (or any amount) of sidespin. The angle stays the same regardless of the distance between the balls (well swerve does complicate matters a bit, but that can come later) - use medium speed to practice for now.

A good way to learn to recognize the correct cue angle is to try back hand english.

Once you start to see the correct angle, you should find it possible to "come into" the shot with the angle already in place.

I hope this helps!

Tony
-gonna go and knock a few balls around now!

TonyM
07-10-2002, 07:07 PM
One way to learn about potting (sinking cut shots, and any shot for that matter) is to actually practice just that. Pure potting. Try a series of progressive cut shot drills (Byne's books and videos cover this well) where you start with a dead-on shot and then increase the cut angle in small increments. Use hole reinforcers or a small chalk mark.

Spend about an hour at this specific practice drill as often as possible and your potting will improve rapidly.

Many players make the mistake of assuming that their potting will improve by "just playing". Often this doesn't happen. You don't get to find out why you missed, so you can't larn from your mistakes. Make lot's of mistakes in practice. We need mistakes to learn.

How do I do it?

By feel. I stand behind the shot and I "see" the aim line that is required. Then I lay the cue down on that line and stroke down it. After you have sunk a trillion (and one!) balls it will become second nature!

Wish I had a magic answer for you, but there it is.

Tony
-no magic available today....check back tommorrow!....

Karatemom
07-10-2002, 08:04 PM
I'm with you guys. That completely confused me, like I'm not already confused enough, LOL. I couldn't come up with 90 degrees either.

The only thing I could figure out about 90 degrees is, on some shots, with center ball hit, I think, the cue ball will stay on a right angle path from the path of the ob. Hope I said that right, even though I'm not so sure I am right about it.

Heide

Karatemom
07-10-2002, 08:08 PM
I want to thank everyone for their input. I value everyone's opinion and advice. Went to the ph today and shot nothing but cuts for 6 hours. It seemed to help alot. I got to feeling where some of them are without having to sit there looking at it for 5 minutes, LOL. Am staying with high and low ball right now, and will work on english once I'm comfortable with this.

Heide ~ very thankful

Karatemom
07-10-2002, 08:12 PM
I seem to remember someone telling me that one day, once I got it down, I would be deadly!!! Do you remember who that was, BABE?????

Heide /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

Alfie
07-10-2002, 09:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> "I stand behind the OB and visualize a straight line to the pocket and aim for the contact point directly across from that line of sight"

Please tell me how you (or anyone else) ever make a ball doing this? If you aim the center of the cueball at the contact point you will undercut every ball! Or do you not aim the center of the cueball at the contact point? (point to point system?)

Otherwise you must subconsciously adjust your aiming point away from the contact point (that is thinner) to make the ball go.

Tony
-what gives? <hr></blockquote> If I may, Stickman.

He gets the OB contact point by drawing a mental line from the pocket through the center of the ball. He then tries to make the CB collide with the OB on that point. He probably makes a subconscious adjustment for throw.

cheesemouse
07-10-2002, 10:11 PM
Karatemom,
Maybe it's because I've been ghostballing it for so long it is just natural to me but I don't care where I'm standing or where the OB is all I have to do is find the farthest point on the OB from the intended pocket and I have the contact point for dead in the heart of the pocket. I have yet to use another aiming system that can improve on that simple fact......it works just fine and it doesn't tax the brain...LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

TonyM
07-10-2002, 10:24 PM
"The only thing I could figure out about 90 degrees is, on some shots, with center ball hit, I think, the cue ball will stay on a right angle path from the path of the ob."

Yes you are right on the money. But what that has to do with the cut shot angle is beyond me.

Tony

TonyM
07-10-2002, 10:29 PM
"He gets the OB contact point by drawing a mental line from the pocket through the center of the ball. He then tries to make the CB collide with the OB on that point. He probably makes a subconscious adjustment for throw."

Think of this:

If you aim the center of the cueball (where your stick is pointing) at the object ball contact point, then you will not be able to pocket a ball. You have to aim thinner than that (I think that we all know this don't we?).

The only way to make use of the object ball contact point as an aiming point, is to find the equivilant point on the other side of the cueball (which requires some imagination) and aim "it" at the object ball contact point. This is then geometrically correct (except for throw of course, but I wasn't talking about throw).

This is a different kettle of fish imo.

Is this what you guys do?

Tony
-doesn't have x-ray vision to see through to the other side of the cueball....

Scott Lee
07-10-2002, 10:33 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> Also, it is possible to set the cue down on the correct line, but change the head position (tilt, or sideways movement) so that it now appears to be off-line.

One way that I trouble shoot for this problem is to try shooting the shot with my eyes closed. If the ball goes in with my eyes closed, but not with them open, then my line up was correct, but my head position is giving me a distorted perception of the cue line.

If I miss the shot with my eyes closed the same way as with them open, then my line up was incorrect.

You can also have someone stand behind you and check your alignment, but this is not always possible.

Tony <hr></blockquote>

Tony...I was doing this exact same thing last weekend, demonstrating how, if you can swing the cue in a straight line, you can shoot the shot in with your eyes closed.
I like the way you described the effect of a "tilted head", and how to tell whether it was affecting making the shot!
I'm going to start using that, when I have a student who cocks their head. LOL Thanks! The check's in the email!

Scott Lee

JimS
07-10-2002, 10:34 PM
When I was in league there were MANY times that my team-mates asked if I had just shot with my eyes closed. My team-mates were lowlife scumbags... /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

stickman
07-10-2002, 10:59 PM
Head position makes a considerable difference for me. I had always lined the stick up below my chin. I now line up under my right eye, (dominate eye) and pocket more shots. When I tried to shoot straight down the table and back, if I lined up under my chin, I put right hand english on the ball. If I line up under my right eye, I shoot the ball straight down the table. It's funny how such a slight change in your alignment has such an effect on your aim. I started with the same aiming method as Hiede, by trying to hit the contact point opposite of a straight line from the OB to the pocket. At first I had to walk around the table and stand directly behing the ball to see it. It's seldom necessary for me to do this to see the correct aim point now. No doubt, repetition is key to improvement, provided you are reinforcing good fundamentals.

JimS
07-10-2002, 11:05 PM
I have to admit that I know practically nothing about geometry....but.

All the rails are in 90* angles from each other so it just made sense to me, in my ingnorant way of reasoning, that if I had a cut shot that could be described as a 65* cut shot then that meant that the ball was traveling at a 65* angle to a rail and that the other ball must be traveling at a 25* angle to another rail.

From this discussion I gather that I am wrong in this dammed uninformed assumption that I wish I'd never made and sure as hell wish I'd never said in public? LOL!

The more I think about it the less sense it makes to me...but.. Now wait. If I have an object ball that is just off the long rail and the cue ball is just a little more off the rail and I have maybe a 5 degree cut to pocket the ball then isn't the cb traveling at a 85* angle from the end rail?

I am confused and frankly embarrased because I don't know what I'm talking about here. In over my head. Severe lack of knowledge in the area of math. But somehow it just makes sense to me???

07-10-2002, 11:15 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jude Rosenstock:</font><hr> See, my problem with sighting mechanical flaws is that more often then not, instructors will view this as the cause of the problem and not the result of one. Kind of like a chicken and egg line of logic.

Lemme explain: Ever notice that when you steer your cue, you almost inevitably miss? The typical instructor will say that the twist caused the shooter to miss the shot. I believe the contrary. Missing caausd the player to twist and it was the shooter's subconscious in contradiction with the conscious mind that caused such an awkward stroke. Nobody wants to steer but we all do from time to time. The reason stems from the fact that our conscious thought process is determining a contact point that is inconsistent with what our subconscious has automatically deduced. The two sides of the brain are not in agreement.

I'm certain you'll find a ton of books that will contradict my statement. Hell, if we all knew the great poolplayer was already within us, what would instructors make their living off of? It is important to have mechanical flaws pointed out but I honestly think that most of them are bi-products of a greater problem rather then the problem itself.

Jude M. Rosenstock <hr></blockquote>

jude! thank you. i have been saying to people for years that one part of my brain was fighting with the other in my shots and that's why i was steering.

exactly.

i see it as an issue of which eye controlls but, shoot, it could be 6 things. i do know that the best single piece of advice i ever got was "you're not trusting your shot."

that also has some to do with follow-thru too.

dan

07-10-2002, 11:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr> For some reason, I can not comprehend where to hit on the ob on a cut shot. I have tried what seems like every method out there, but I still can't get it. I know practice will eventually teach me where, assuming I learn from my mistakes.

Was just wondering how everyone else here does it.

Heide ~ my biggest problem, today!! <hr></blockquote>

ok, mom, i just read this long thread and noone else has mentioned this so i will.

cuts need to be looked at from above.

you know how everyone wants you to get your nose down on that cue stick? that does a lot of good stuff for you but it's the worlds worst place to see a cut angle. look at the pictures of all the old hoppe and mosconi's. they were all much more upright than we are on most shots.

just for fun. try getting up pretty high, standing darn near straight up (but not really),first as you examine but then as you shoot some cuts and see if it isn't easier to see the right angle to hit.

let me know if that works at all for you. it usually does.

dan

stickman
07-10-2002, 11:29 PM
I had never thought of it in that sense, but you are correct. I don't aim the center of the cueball there. I visualize the cueball contacting that point. Anyway, I seldom ever find it necessary to actually walk around behind the OB to see it these days, only on a rare shot. You are correct, aiming the center of the cue ball at that point won't do it. Whatever it is that I do, works most of the time, but unfortunately not all the time. /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif I've tried different aiming techniques but always come back to this one, except that I like to use the half ball hit on spot shots. For some reason, I find it easier to visualize.

Alfie
07-11-2002, 01:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> "He gets the OB contact point by drawing a mental line from the pocket through the center of the ball. He then tries to make the CB collide with the OB on that point. He probably makes a subconscious adjustment for throw."

Think of this:

If you aim the center of the cueball (where your stick is pointing) at the object ball contact point, then you will not be able to pocket a ball. You have to aim thinner than that (I think that we all know this don't we?). <hr></blockquote>
I would be interested in the demographics of those who don't know it.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> The only way to make use of the object ball contact point as an aiming point, is to find the equivilant point on the other side of the cueball (which requires some imagination) and aim "it" at the object ball contact point. <hr></blockquote> Well, that's not the ONLY way to make use of the OBCP. You see, the OBCP defines a ghost ball.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> This is then geometrically correct (except for throw of course, but I wasn't talking about throw). <hr></blockquote> Yeah, let's save that for another day.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> This is a different kettle of fish imo.

Is this what you guys do? <hr></blockquote> I use it a lot, but not exclusively.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> Tony - doesn't have x-ray vision to see through to the other side of the cueball.... <hr></blockquote> Here is an x-ray vision drill:
Empty your refrigerator except for one item. Sit in a chair in front of and facing the refrigerator door. Look inside. Close the door. Now imagine what the inside looks like, i.e., if the light stays on. Write down a description of it. Open the door and compare your description to how it really looks. Repeat this process several times, each time moving the item to a new location.

The advanced version is done using no items at all. Just sit there and imagine different things in different places as if those things were actually in the refrigerator. Skip the written description.

Fred Agnir
07-11-2002, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jude Rosenstock:</font><hr> Lemme explain: Ever notice that when you steer your cue, you almost inevitably miss? The typical instructor will say that the twist caused the shooter to miss the shot. I believe the contrary. Missing caausd the player to twist and it was the shooter's subconscious in contradiction with the conscious mind that caused such an awkward stroke. <hr></blockquote>

I completely agree. Related is the old "you jumped up" when I (or anyone) misses . For the most part, I don't think the jumping causes the miss, but instead the miss causes the jump. You already know it missed the moment you let it fly.

Nobody ever comments when I jump up *and* make the ball.

Fred &lt;~~~ doesn't advocate jumping up, or cliche' advice for that matter

Eric.
07-11-2002, 08:32 AM
Hey K-Mom,

As if there aren't enough ideas overloading your brain, let me add one that, I hope, is useful;

If you're using Ghost ball(which I like also), here's something to try- Joe Porper sells something called the "Ghostball Aimer". It's a plastic rack with one ball attached inside of it and a hole for the object ball to slide in. The rack has a point at the end of it.
The way it works is that you line up the rack over the object ball, with the needle pointing to the pocket. The ghostball is fixed to the rack so once you line everything up, get down on the shot and view the Ghostball position. Once you see how to shoot the Cueball to "fill" the Ghostball area, remove the rack and shoot the cueball. This should speed your learning process along because it will take alot of the guess work out of how thick/thin to hit the OB. BTW in case no one explained it to you, thick/thin refers to how much contact the OB and cueball makes. Picture an Eclipse i.e. the cueball is covering how much of the OB.
Well, I hope it's not info overload, good luck!

P.S.-Mueller's sells em for \$30.00

Eric &gt;not a teacher but stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night...

07-11-2002, 08:45 AM

07-11-2002, 08:57 AM
Can you use it in a game? If not, I don't think it's be the best learning method. The best way is to practice is with the equipment that's already provided to you.

Jude M. Rosenstock

Wally_in_Cincy
07-11-2002, 09:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: whitewolf:</font><hr>

Not having your reputation as a teacher - I sometimes feel that I have the Rodney Dangerfield complex (can't get no respect). No one has ever tried or responded to any of my ideas, or at least said nice idea - starting to feel like Patrick LOL <hr></blockquote>

Howdy Whitewolf,

If it'll make ya' feel any better I practiced "eyes closed" shooting after reading your post a few weeks ago. I had tried it before after reading about it somewhere six months ago and your post reminded me to try it again. It really does furnish excellent feedback. Not having visual distraction allows you to concentrate on the sense of touch.

Thanks,

07-11-2002, 11:04 AM

Karatemom
07-11-2002, 11:21 AM
I get down on the ball like I'm looking through the crosshairs. I have tried standing more upright, but being down with my chin on the cue is more comfortable for me. IMO, whichever stance you choose, eventually you will learn where to hit the ob to make the cut, correct? I'm in agreement with all of you though, practice practice practice makes perfect.

Heide

Karatemom
07-11-2002, 11:27 AM
Yes, I have noticed that getting on top of the angle makes it much easier to comprehend. However, I'm practicing at just shooting the cut, not looking at the angle, but trying to feel it. When I miss two or three times in a row, then I'll get up and look at it, but otherwise, I'm trying to feel it instead of thinking about it.

Heide

MikeM
07-11-2002, 11:41 AM
Jude,

You also can't grab the balls and reposition them in a game when you miss and try the shot over and over again until you get it right. This is what practice is for. I think anything can help you visualize the proper angle/technique and that can help you memorize the RIGHT way is helpful. Just look at all the responses K-Mom has gotten with different advice for aiming. A picture is worth a thousand words.

MM

Kato
07-11-2002, 12:01 PM
Don't let me stumble into town. I take it all of with my powers of CHEESE!!!!!!!!!!!

Kato

Ross
07-11-2002, 12:02 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Jude Rosenstock:</font><hr>
Lemme explain: Ever notice that when you steer your cue, you almost inevitably miss? The typical instructor will say that the twist caused the shooter to miss the shot. I believe the contrary. Missing caausd the player to twist and it was the shooter's subconscious in contradiction with the conscious mind that caused such an awkward stroke. Nobody wants to steer but we all do from time to time. The reason stems from the fact that our conscious thought process is determining a contact point that is inconsistent with what our subconscious has automatically deduced. The two sides of the brain are not in agreement.

I'm certain you'll find a ton of books that will contradict my statement. Hell, if we all knew the great poolplayer was already within us, what would instructors make their living off of? It is important to have mechanical flaws pointed out but I honestly think that most of them are bi-products of a greater problem rather then the problem itself.

Jude M. Rosenstock <hr></blockquote>

(Warning - long post!)
I have made this exact point in conversations with other players. However, your post got me to thinking about it more. I agree that steering, swerving, and jumping are caused by our unconscious mind thinking that the stroke as lined up will not get the job done. But there is another issue: Which aim is correct? - Our consciously set line or the line our unconscious is trying to get us to shoot?
Situation 1: Set up line is correct, unconscious misperceives shot and tries to "steer" us wrong.
Situation 2: Set up line is incorrect, unconcious realizes this and tries to correct stroke.
If situation 1 applies, then avoiding steering etc. will lead us to pocket the ball. If situation 2 applies, then the steering may help us (although the problem of deflection due to an off-center hit may doom us anyway as TonyM pointed out).
I currently believe in most cases(but not all) situation 1 applies.

An example: I'm cutting a ball to the left down the long rail with low-right english. Here squirt causes the cb to go more to the left than my aim would suggest. So consciously I aim a bit to the right of my desired contact point. However, if I'm not careful, during the stroke I will swerve back to the left because my unconscious (being influenced by the line of aim and not picturing the deflection) is panicked that I'm going to overcut the ball. The result is that I end up undercutting the ball.
One way I've been semi-successful at getting rid of this conscious/unconscious battle is to set my visual target an inch or two to the left of the target pocket. With this compensation, my ucs is happy, the stroke is smooth, and the ball goes right in. The difficulty with this is that the amount of offset in aim varies with amount of english, distance from the ob, etc. Another approach I've tried is to make myself picture the true squirt influenced departure line of the cb. If I can visualize this then my ucs is happy and I make the shot.

Second example: Extremely thin cuts. These seem to be often undercut because the unconscious is afraid to miss the ball and also does not factor in throw. This causes the shooter to swerve slightly toward the ob during the stroke. I've noticed that if I get my alignment for these and then just shoot the cb into the rail along that line (without focusing on making the ob) I am more likely to produce a perfectly straight stroke and make these shots. The other method I use is to visually picture the throw (cb grabbing the ob and throwing it slightly toward the rail) and this has worked quite well.

My point(s)? The often lauded unconscious is not always right. If we don't actually visualize the effects of squirt and throw so that our unconscious has the complete picture it will cause us to fight our straight and pure stroke and get us to swerve, jump, and shimmy like a broken-down old jalopy!

What do you guys think?

Eric.
07-11-2002, 12:21 PM
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote: Jude Rosenstock:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr&gt; Can you use it in a game? If not, I don't think it's be the best learning method. The best way is to practice is with the equipment that's already provided to you.

Jude M. Rosenstock &lt;hr&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Jude,

As you know, you can't use it in a game. This is a basic training tool for the beginner and I think it would cut 100's of hours off the "trial and error" method. I think that once you become familiar with what a proper cut angle looks like, then you can discard the training wheels. The beauty of this tool is that it can mechanically show someone exactly where they should be aiming.

Eric &gt;still working on the 2 ball run

Karatemom
07-11-2002, 12:31 PM
It's funny, isn't it. Everyone has a different suggestion, but they all lead to the same answer - repetition. At least that's what I'm getting out of it. It doesn't really matter how you do it, as long as it works and you do it over and over, IMO.

Heide ~ always willing to listen to a new idea

Karatemom
07-11-2002, 12:36 PM
Hey, Cheese, don't forget seeing the beads of sweat running down into their eyes, burning like heck, just from vacuuming. LOL

Eric.
07-11-2002, 12:39 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr> It's funny, isn't it. Everyone has a different suggestion, but they all lead to the same answer - repetition. At least that's what I'm getting out of it. It doesn't really matter how you do it, as long as it works and you do it over and over, IMO.

Heide ~ always willing to listen to a new idea <hr></blockquote>

Hi Heide,

Actually, knowing the right thing and repeating it is the key. Once you know where to hit it, then you can burn it into your brain otherwise you're reinforcing a bad habit that may be harder to break JMO.

Eric &gt;tell Chris I'll need the 4 n out to play...

SPetty
07-11-2002, 01:29 PM
Well dammit JimS! Now look there, you've made me cuss!

And here I thought I was going to finally get the super secret 90 degree aiming system that everyone but me knows. I could do a 90 degree thing, but I just couldn't figure it out. I guess that's because the super secret 90 degree aiming system doesn't exist and doesn't work! hahaha

Well, anyway, I sure hope it doesn't totally screw up all your nice aiming now knowing that it's all in your head!

If you think about it some more and figure it out, let me know! Or write a book and make a lot of money! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif

07-11-2002, 01:35 PM
Actually, I disagree. Missing isn't a bad habbit. I know that sounds contradictory but hear me out for a second. When you play pool for an hour, you will likely attempt over 100 shots. If you play pool 10 hours a week, you'll likely attempt over 1000 shots. Every time you shoot the ball, whether it goes in a pocket or not, your brain is picking up on a patterned event. It doesn't matter if the goal was reached or not, your brain is learning. Missing is merely part of the learning process and it helps in programming your brain. By using mechanical aides to assist in pocketing the ball, you're actually disturbing the process and providing a crutch. The student needs to learn how to look at the object ball alone and to trust their instincts in determining the correct contact point.

The fact that you can't use it in a game is also important. Training wheels helped me from falling down. Floats helped me from drowning. There was a genuine fear factor involved when using these devices. Pool doesn't have such pitfalls and I didn't really learn how to ride a bike or swim until I went out there and did it without the training tools. You're not gonna die or break your skull if you don't make the shot so I don't see how the comparison works.

Jude M. Rosenstock

Jude M. Rosenstock

07-11-2002, 01:51 PM
ok, K please do not take this wrong i do not mean to offend i do not know your style of play or your ablility level. i only base this comment on what i've personally seen in other players -- DON'T BLAME AIM IF YOUR STROKES A JOKE. -- wouldn't it be nice to be able to make 80 to 85% of all of your shots? ----------naw, you would just get beat.
the replys to your post contain much excellent info regarding aim point/contact point cb to ob. what about the aim point/contact point Q tip to Q ball. remember, we are looking at ob when the Q tip contacts cb. how do we know the Q tip hit the cb in the exact precise tiny little spot chosen when aligning cb to ob. miss this spot up or down not too bad miss it side to side as little as 1/4 a tip and you've missed your aim point &amp; your shot.
this is just my opinion and i'm sure i'll hear from the nay sayers. the only replys that were 100% correct are the ones that sais PRATICE

heater451
07-11-2002, 01:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Karatemom:</font><hr> . . .as long as it works. . . .<hr></blockquote>Ah, but have you found the one that works for YOU?

The repitition/trial-and-error approach, will certainly work, given time, but you should also consider that many of the systems account for the curvature of the ball/discrepancy between aim and contact points.

The ghostball method does, but requires you to imagine the correct 'place' to put the cueball--in effect you try to move the body of an object (cue ball) into the space of an imaginary object of equal size and shape (ghost ball). This method might work best for those with good 3-dimesional visualizing ability.

Using a Hal Houle type system, with reference points between the cue ball and object ball, require you to sight along lines from said points (the points marked at: vertical centers of the balls, the edges of the balls, and at 1/4-ball, 1/2-ball, and 3/4-ball). Which points to align is decided upon, by distinguishing the divergent angle from the cue ball/object ball centerline, and picking the appropriate ones. I think this is better for 2-dimensional thinkers.

The equal-distance system is similar to the HH system, but the aim points/aim line is derived from the 2-dimensional, visual overlap of the two balls. As phil in sofla put it: <blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>. . .If the contact point on the object ball is, say, 3/8 inch to the right of the left edge (cutting the ball to the right), the contact point on the cue ball is 3/8 inch to the left of its right edge. It is an equal amount in from the edge of the cue ball as it is in from the edge of the object ball (as seen from shooting position). So, you could line up through the cue ball at that 3/8 inch in from the edge line, to the contact point on the cue ball, and stroking straight through that line, the cut should go.

However, that would be putting a lot of English on the ball, hitting the cue ball well off center. To drive the cue ball to the same point without English, once you have that aim line, you simply parallel the cue stick over to the center of the ball.<hr></blockquote>(Someone else posted issues with finding the parallel--sorry, too lazy to look the name(s) up. If you are hitting centerball, I don't see how this is hard. . . .)

The funny thing is, if you use the 1/2-ball hit as a reference you can easily see that all of the systems co-incide (as well as on some other divisions). An example, Troy posted this in phil's "Learn all three cuts" thread:<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>. . . Yesterday afternoon I set up numerous "ghost ball" shots and carefully observed the resulting CB to OB relationship. In nearly all instances either the CB Center or CB Left 1/4 or CB Right 1/4 were aligned with either Edge of the OB. While lined up to hit the "ghost ball" I asked my pool partner to remove that "ghost ball" prior to shooting. Yup, the OB went in the pocket. <hr></blockquote>

Again, I have to ask, have you found what works for you?

=====================
~~~still haven't done the diagrams. . . .

07-11-2002, 02:29 PM

phil in sofla
07-11-2002, 02:36 PM
Don 'The Preacher' Feeney talks about practicing speed, and the missing involved, in about the same way you're talking about. He shows setting up a little cut shot close to a pocket, hitting it soft to just come off the rail with the cue ball, and then executing that shot over and over again, to try to come close to the same leave as the first soft hit left you. He mentions not to be upset with not getting that close to where you are trying to get, since, he says, all the attempts are teaching you something, and when the shot shows up in a game, you'll be surprised to find that you may get exactly to that spot.

However, I must observe that with all the shooting we amateurs do, we do a lot of missing, and if this is making improvements, many would say that it must be a very little improvement indeed, since so many players are plateaued in their game at some level that doesn't seem to change.

07-11-2002, 02:42 PM
Part of the problem is that us amateurs often make conscious corrections every time we miss. Hell, we even do it when we make shots! See, every player has a conscious mind (ego) and that conscious mind is often going to try and take credit for success or take control when things aren't going as planned. The fact is, the subconscious has an amazing memory, if only we allow it to operate without interference. The real struggle most players deal with has to do with trusting one's own ability, even if you're missing, especially if you're missing. It's difficult to imagine but try to convey messages to yourself without trying to take control. Try to play better without trying harder.

Jude M. Rosenstock

TonyM
07-11-2002, 05:57 PM
No problem Scott! Looking forward to my "royalties"! Lol!

As you know, you can also use a cueball last sighting to diagnose certain problems as well. Such as a last minute adjustment in the stroke.

Tony

TonyM
07-11-2002, 06:07 PM
Lol! Calm down Jim! Take a deep breath!
I see where you are coming from. You are using the rails as a reference point.

However, while any two adjacent rails do indeed form a 90 degree angle (unless you have a very bad table mechanic!) this information is basically useless for aiming purposes with respect to cut shots!

After all, we don't ever pull out a protractor and try and find the angle for the cut do we? (relative to one, two rails or not).

So while it is true that the angle of any cut shot (object ball to rail) will always add to 90 degrees when related to two adjacent rails, this information is basically of no use.

Tony
-now take a happy pill and go hit some balls!

TonyM
07-11-2002, 06:10 PM
"I've tried different aiming techniques but always come back to this one, except that I like to use the half ball hit on spot shots. For some reason, I find it easier to visualize."

Well the reason that you find it easier to visualize a half ball hit, is that you don't actually have to visualize it! All you have to do is identify that it is indeed a half ball hit, and then aim the center of the cueball at the edge of the object ball. When you have a distinct target to aim for, it sure makes it easier to execute!

Tony

TonyM
07-11-2002, 06:16 PM
Tony - "If you aim the center of the cueball (where your stick is pointing) at the object ball contact point, then you will not be able to pocket a ball. You have to aim thinner than that (I think that we all know this don't we?)."

Alf: - "I would be interested in the demographics of those who don't know it. "

You would be surprised Alfie! There are many people out there that learned to aim by pointing at the contact point, and then try and send the center of the cueball toward that contact point! What happens is that after a while (and many misses) they just learn to aim "a bit thinner" than that, without any understanding of what they are doing!

Alf: " Well, that's not the ONLY way to make use of the OBCP. You see, the OBCP defines a ghost ball."

Defines a ghost ball is not how I'd put it I guess. But see above to see how it can be done otherwise.

As for the x-ray vision drill, well let me know when you get to the flying through the air drills.

Tony
-can't do that either...

TonyM
07-11-2002, 06:25 PM
"However, if I'm not careful, during the stroke I will swerve back to the left because my unconscious (being influenced by the line of aim and not picturing the deflection) is panicked that I'm going to overcut the ball."

Yes that can happen. One way that I do it is to first find the correct cue angle required to compensate for the squirt. Then I follow the line of the cue towards the object ball. This might put the "aim" point well away from the no-english position. Then I keep my eyes on the new aim point, and try and deliver the cue down that line.

This problem is, in a way, another good case for backhand english. If you first aim the shot with no english, and then pivot the stick to get the required amount of sidespin, then even if you swerve the stick back towards the ball the shot will still go! (but you won't have the english that you wanted). You need a short pivot point for this to work, but it does make some sense.

The second case (thin cuts getting undercut) is a good point. I do a similar thing. I find a spot on the cloth, or on the rail behind the object ball and just ignore the object ball entirely!

And you are right. Our subconscious doesn't allways know what it's talking about!

Tony
-subconsciously world champion...

Karatemom
07-11-2002, 08:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: heater451:</font><hr> &lt;Ah, but have you found the one that works for YOU?
<hr></blockquote>

Hi Heater. Yes, I believe I have found what works for me. I don't know that I can put into words what it is, but I will try.

When I get down on the cb, I look at the point of contact, and aim my D19 just to the outside edge of the point of contact. This seems to work the best for me. I can not use the ghost ball method.

So to answer to your question, yes, I think I have found what works for me.

Heide

Karatemom
07-11-2002, 09:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: simsd:</font><hr> ok, K please do not take this wrong i do not mean to offend i do not know your style of play or your ablility level. i only base this comment on what i've personally seen in other players -- DON'T BLAME AIM IF YOUR STROKES A JOKE. -- wouldn't it be nice to be able to make 80 to 85% of all of your shots? ----------naw, you would just get beat.
the replys to your post contain much excellent info regarding aim point/contact point cb to ob. what about the aim point/contact point Q tip to Q ball. remember, we are looking at ob when the Q tip contacts cb. how do we know the Q tip hit the cb in the exact precise tiny little spot chosen when aligning cb to ob. miss this spot up or down not too bad miss it side to side as little as 1/4 a tip and you've missed your aim point &amp; your shot.
this is just my opinion and i'm sure i'll hear from the nay sayers. the only replys that were 100% correct are the ones that sais PRATICE <hr></blockquote>

It's been 10+ years since I've seriously shot any balls, so now I'm just getting back into it and having to relearn everything all over again. The first thing I did was videotape my stroke, grip, etc. I had been twisting my wrist, swerving before I hit the cb, so that I never hit the spot on the cb where I was aiming, which had been center ball on a straight-in shot.

After working with my grip and stroke mechanics, I found one that works for me, a 2 finger (middle and ring) grip; that kept my stroke straight. After all of that, we (Chris and I) worked on a stroke method for my pre-shot routine.

Once everything was going straight and timed, I shot 1000 straight-in balls with center ball. We checked this every now and then by the chalk mark on the cb when lining up the red circle dead center. From there I went to the cut shots, knowing that if I miss the cut, I at least eliminated not cueing straight. For the cut shots, I went to one cue tip above center.

So far, I have 360 cut shots in, which we divided into 6 different groups of cuts, on half of the table, and will go back to the ph tomorrow and work on more.

You were absolutely right though. I know this because I've done it before. I used to hit the cb at a different spot than where I was aiming. Chris has helped me big time work on all my mechanics and problems.

Heide ~ not offended at all

JimS
07-11-2002, 09:13 PM
I think you're right that the 90* angle idea I conjured up may not be of any use to anyone......that is anyone other than ME. But I have to tell you that I DO find it helpful.

I can't begin to describe why, but It works for me. I think of the shot that way when I'm standing and planning the shot and when I get down on the shot that thought, or picture, helps me see/feel the line/angle and helps me to pick the correct angle for the cb to intersect the line from the target through the ob and on to the opposite rail. When I'm "on" and use that method I get that certain "feeling" in my gut as I'm lining up and I KNOW the shot is ON....absolutely and precisely and unquestionably destined to go exactly where I want it. It's a feeling of homeostatis, everything in the universe is, at that instant, in perfect alingment. It's a beautiful thing and accounts for much of the reason that I love pool. Yin/yang fitting precisely. Infinity present and understood, in that moment. Perfect peace. One Being...be-ing.

Opps....got a bit over the top there.....NO I have NOT smoked or dropped anything!! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Blame it on Don Juan Matus.

I can't explain it. I just use it.

Sorry if I confused anyone or made life more difficult! /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif I hate being uneducated in scientific areas.....but not enough to tackle it. I prefer my humanastic training. Such is my predeliction.

Karatemom
07-11-2002, 09:18 PM
Chris and I share a similar view. The 360 cuts that I worked on were strictly done by feel. I will work on even more tomorrow.

Heide

JimS
07-11-2002, 09:21 PM
The man is a good mentor. Very thorough and process oriented. It's working for me and has improved my play a lot. Keep it up Heide! Happy for the two of you!!

stickman
07-11-2002, 09:50 PM
I think any aiming system is just a matter of visualization. No matter how you visualize it, the OB has to be struck within fairly close tolerances of a precise point. If you have a method that works best for you, use it. I use the half ball hit to shoot spot shots. This is not my normal method of aiming, but I've found it to work best for me in this situation. Irregardless if I use this method or not, the OB still has to be hit in the same place to be pocketed.

07-12-2002, 12:08 AM
well S.Petty... it's because you can't shoot the Balls &amp; keep 'em on the Table. Your AIM must be off. Read a Pool Book &amp; learn to make the 90 Degree Cut... or give up the Game &amp; be a "sweater".

07-12-2002, 12:51 AM
I think you both have very valid points, Jude and Fred, but I wouldn't be too quick to devalue the concept of addressing mechanics to solve the problem.

Picture this scenario: You've discovered that when you start to get nervous or self doubt starts to creep in, that you tend to steer your shots or jump up on your shots. It's obvious your subconscious and your conscious minds are in conflict. So what do you do about it?

You have two choices. One, undergo extensive therapy and address your fears, insecurities, etc. That may take about 30 years. Or, two, you can train yourself to keep your back hand straight regardless of what your conscious mind is telling you to do, or you can tell yourself to finish every shot down at the table and watch the object ball roll towards it's destination from a "down" and not "up" position.

The first possible solution is similar to the theraputic process you go through when you put yourself in therapy. The second is more like neurolinguistic programming, where you bypass the "cause" of the problem and focus on creating new habits that prevent you from unconsciously reacting to certain emotions.

It's much easier to address the reaction than it is to address the cause, and interestingly enough, since the emotion and programmed reaction are so intertwined, the new reaction you've just programmed into yourself, (keeping your back hand straight, and staying down) seems to have a positive effect on the negative emotion or cause. It's almost as if the negative emotion (or the cause) seems to lose it's strength, and that is a really good thing.

Fran

07-12-2002, 03:24 AM
An excellent instructional video that is a must see is, How To Play Pool Right, by Jerry Briesath, master instructor. It should help you correct this problem and any others that you may have.
Learnimg the shooting system portion of this video is crucial for improvement.
but thats just me
good luck

JimS
07-12-2002, 06:36 AM
YES! An entire life can be spent trying to figure out "why am I like this" or "why do I miss shots" and WHY seldom matters!

Don't like what you've got. Change it!.....and move on. To hell with "why" is it is the way it is. Even if you do figure out "why"...the problem is still there.

Don't like that you jump up before the shot is over? To hell with "WHY do I jump up"......STAY DOWN ON THE SHOT!

Chris Cass
07-12-2002, 07:48 AM
Hi Fran,

Excellent advice Fran. When tournament matches get your mind frazelled, fear or indecision creep in. It's solid mechanics and a solid pre-shot routine that can pull you through it. Slowing it down to one shot at a time. You can work on the mental stuff later. IMO Can't tell you how many times I've, had to rely on trusting my pre-shot to pull me through a match. Also, a good breathing technique.

Regards,

C.C.~~strong post Fran...

Alfie
07-12-2002, 11:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> You would be surprised Alf[ie]! There are many people out there that learned to aim by pointing at the contact point, and then try and send the center of the cueball toward that contact point! What happens is that after a while (and many misses) they just learn to aim "a bit thinner" than that, without any understanding of what they are doing! <hr></blockquote>

Curious to know if there are demograghics. Is it a man thing, European thing, etc.?

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TonyM:</font><hr> Alf: "[...] the OBCP defines a ghost ball."

Defines a ghost ball is not how I'd put it I guess. <hr></blockquote>

i.e., defines a ghost ball position.

Here is another x-ray vision drill: Stand inside your house facing the front door. Imagine two Jehovah's Whitnesses standing shoulder to shoulder on the other side of the door. The one on the left wrt your position has a copy of "The Watchtower" in his right hand.

07-12-2002, 02:58 PM
I agree with Jude. After years of pool playing, your subconcious mind has an understanding of the game and knows what the shot should look like. It is our conscious mind that corrupts our shotmaking. You see this in experienced baseball outfielders...the moment the ball leaves the bat, they know exactly where on the field they needs to be to catch the ball. There's alot of factors that go into this, but the brain is able to process it almost instantaneously. Primarily based on passed experience.
Unfortunately in pool, our conscious mind is allowed to dwell on the shot and can corrupt it.

07-12-2002, 07:37 PM
I just read Fran's post and saw the words nervous and self doubt. Nervous arrives in my life when I dont hear from my parents in days and self doubt appeared when my ex-wife left me. While in battle at the table, barring all distraction the second nature ability takes over and I think of nothing at all. The ability to think of nothing was self taught and I wont begin to say I can explain it but its the zone we all strive for. I'm sure great 14.1 players were unaware of high runs until they were over...due to there "trance-like" concentration. The score, the opponent, bad rolls, the rail....NO-ONE matters when your in that state. Confidence, killer instinct and a presence at the table helps the trance kick in for sure. Bottom line is if your well practiced, fundamentally solid and you have drive to excel...you wont experience the "yips", aimming troubles or "nervous self doubt"...IMO.

Voodoo

cheesemouse
07-12-2002, 10:05 PM
Voodoo,
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>The ability to think of nothing was self taught and I wont begin to say I can explain it but its the zone we all strive for<hr></blockquote>

I know I'm zoning it when I have no idea where I stand in the match. A number of times I've shot the last ball of the match in to win and not even know it was the final game... I love that feeling. When I'm playing good pool I can rarely reconstruct a match that just happened. It seems that what isn't in the moment just doesn't register until much later. It weird stuff but an enjoyable state. It really bothers some of my buddies when I can't answer their questions about my match that just got over. Sometimes I can't even remember who I just played. They think I'm bull\$hitting them. On the other hand when I'm playing bad I remember drink orders given to the cocktailer. LOL /ccboard/images/icons/smile.gif Ain't pool fun???????

ObeOne
07-13-2002, 12:57 AM
I haven't had time to read this entire thread, but here's a method that helped me. What I do, is aim the center of the cue ball to hit the edge of the object ball. Once u shoot like that for a while, you realize when you need to make slight adjustments. Try that and see if it helps.