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9_Ball_Junky
05-28-2006, 02:39 PM
alright, i was wondering.......i have been reading a lot lately, both on here and in books and such that friends have, and was just curious........what is the difference between a dime shaped tip and a nickel shaped tip......any advantage in either?

thanks
J

Billy_Bob
05-29-2006, 10:06 AM
Hold a nickel up to the side of your tip, the curve will match a nickel shaped tip. (U.S. Nickel.)

The best way to learn about various tip shapes is to experiment yourself. I did this and decided a Moori Q (hard) dime shaped tip was best for my playing cue. Get an old or cheap cue and your own tip replacement tools. Then try soft, medium, hard, and very hard like phenolic tips. Then dime, nickel, and quarter shapes. Then different brands of tips like elk master, pig skin Moori, buffalo, etc. [whatever]. See what you like best, then stick with that brand, shape, and hardness forever.

Always keeping your tip the same shape will make for more consistent shooting. Also when you replace your tip, it will be the same exact tip and tip shape you have been using, so it will play the same.

[How many players have you heard say "I'll play better once I get used to this new tip!"]

Tip shaping tools...
Do-it-yourself tip shaper...
Cut electrical PVC in half and about 8 inches long - Be safe, use a vise to hold the pipe when sawing and both hands on saw. Use 220 grip sandpaper cut to size. Sand back and forth while slowly rotating cue. Lightly sand to put a "fresh" surface on tip...

PVC SIZES...
Dime (1/2" PVC Pipe) [15.00 mm]
Nickel / Penny (3/4" PVC Pipe) [19.75 mm]
Quarter (1" PVC Pipe) [25mm]
Half dollar (1 1/4" PVC Pipe)
Billiard ball (2" PVC Pipe)

U.S. COIN SIZES...
Dime ......................... 18.00mm
Penny ..................... 19.10mm
Nickel ....................... 21.10mm
Quarter ...................... 24.10mm
Half Dollar .................. 30.50mm

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 11:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote 9_Ball_Junky:</font><hr> alright, i was wondering.......i have been reading a lot lately, both on here and in books and such that friends have, and was just curious........what is the difference between a dime shaped tip and a nickel shaped tip......any advantage in either?<hr /></blockquote>
Billy_Bob's post is pretty thorough, but if you want more detail and illustrations, see my July '06 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/july06.pdf).

Happy reading,
Dave

Billy_Bob
05-29-2006, 11:54 AM
Also I might add that there is a totally "flat" tip at one extreme, and an extremely rounded tip at the other extreme.

Somewhere in the middle is an ideally shaped tip, or maybe several shapes will do the job equally well?

Predator says a dime shaped tip has less cue ball deflection and recommends this shape for their cues.
http://www.predatorcues.com/predator_cues_tech_tips.html

Also I use different shapes depending on the cue.

-Playing = dime shape, Moori Q tip (best from my experimenting.)

-Breaking = Quarter shape, Tiger jump/break tip (keeps its shape easier, less likely to miscue)

-Jump = Dime shape, phenolic tip (Recommended by Bunjee)

-Masse' = Nickel shape, Triangle Medium (Came with cue - if it works, don't fix it! [Seems to work well, so no need to change it.])

Billy_Bob
05-29-2006, 12:18 PM
This is what my PVC tip shaping tools look like. Click on [&gt;&gt;] on upper right to get rid of advertising.

See last picture at bottom...
http://www.geocities.com/billybobnospam/pr.html

wolfdancer
05-29-2006, 01:13 PM
pretty good diagrams there.....but I don't think anyone has answered the basic query....which tip shape is better,or how do they compare?
If you place a dime under a tip (cue lying on the table) and then compare it with a nickel under the same cue......for a 13mm tip size....there is really not enough effective difference in the angle to matter to the avg player. The tip diameter would have to be much larger to really change the radius.
I shape mine with a neat little rounded carborundom tool, that was overpriced at retail....but has a leather case, and even fits nicely into my pocket.(no PCV pipe for me)I've tucked other sandpaper tools into my pocket....same pocket where I keep my WalMart reading glasses.....and sandpaper and glass lenses do not make for a harmonious coupling.
I'd guess that more important then tip radius, is a nice edge formed where the radius meets the sides. It's my understanding that this edge assists in obtaining spin.
Warning though....don't use French or Canadian coins as a template for your radius.....neither coinage is ever used for tips.

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 02:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> pretty good diagrams there.....but I don't think anyone has answered the basic query....which tip shape is better,or how do they compare?<hr /></blockquote>
For applying English, in general a smaller and rounder tip is better. The article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/july06.pdf) explains and illustrates one reason: more table clearance, especially for larger offset shots. Another reason is that the smaller, rounder shape allows for a more uniform contact area as the tip offset is increased. (If you have a copy of my book, this is illustrated in Figure 2.2 on pg. 18). A final reason is that, for shots with English, the impact is more centralized to the core of the stick for a smaller, rounder tip. (Some people, for example Predator's marketing personnel, claim that this helps reduce squirt. I'm not sure about this, but I have no evidence to suggest otherwise.)

One advantage of a larger, flatter tip is that a center-ball hit, with some tip placement inaccuracy, will generally have less unintentional English (and unexpected throw). In other words, a larger, flatter tip is more "forgiving" with center-ball hits.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I'd guess that more important then tip radius, is a nice edge formed where the radius meets the sides. It's my understanding that this edge assists in obtaining spin.<hr /></blockquote>
I respectfully disagree. If you are contacting the cue ball with the edge of the tip, you will likely miscue often (IMO).

Regards,
Dave

wolfdancer
05-29-2006, 05:32 PM
On a theoritical basis...you are right....on a practical basis look at the relative curves when layered over a 13mm diameter surface....really not that much to get excited about....
And I respectfully disagree with your disagreement....I believe on any shot where the hit is off center....the edge also hits the CB....
Maybe some high speed camera might prove me wrong there.....but I'll keep shapping an edge on my cue.
It would be interesting to compare english/draw ...same person shooting my cue which has an edge...and BB's which doesn't .....but the tip would also have to be the same.
I'd bet mine though, would produce more of a gear effect......
We did have two "legendary" players from the Bay Area, that both used small tips about 11 mm......and one "nine ball Paul" played with extreme english....probably from his billiards days.....the other guy I've retipped his cue....and the most important thing for him was that I cut the tip down to about the "half-wear" size. I also shaped his tips for him many times....freehand....I haven't a clue, which radius it more closely resembled....
If I take your arguemant to the extreme...then the closer the tip got to a point....the better?....are we talking effective mass here...or web page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_mass)

dr_dave
05-29-2006, 09:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>I respectfully disagree with your disagreement....I believe on any shot where the hit is off center....the edge also hits the CB....
Maybe some high speed camera might prove me wrong there.....but I'll keep shapping an edge on my cue.<hr /></blockquote>
I think we will just need to respectfully agree to respectfully disagree on whether or not the tip edge sharpness is important.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>If I take your arguemant to the extreme...then the closer the tip got to a point....the better?....are we talking effective mass here...or web page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_mass)<hr /></blockquote>I would love to have such a cue, especially if it were infinitely stiff, infinitely strong, with no end-mass, and have positive action, point contact with no tip deformation. Such a theoretical stick would be awesome in every way I can think of. This is the kind of things engineers dream of while being realistic enough to know we can't even come close.

Regards,
Dave

Scott Lee
05-29-2006, 10:36 PM
9_Ball_Junky...I like to keep in much more simple than all these "explanations"! There is little, if any significant difference in stroke effect, between a nickle shaped and a dime shaped time. Round hits round, flat does not hit round efficiently. If you have a quality stroke, as long as the tip is round, you'll get a predictable, repeatable effect with the CB. If you don't have a quality stroke, it won't matter much what your tip is shaped like.

Scott Lee

Billy_Bob
05-30-2006, 10:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr>...I don't think anyone has answered the basic query....which tip shape is better,or how do they compare?...<hr /></blockquote>

I always say the tip is the most important part of the cue - the business end!

But so far as I know, there has been little or no research done so far as what the best tip radius is, the best material, or the best hardness.

And you would need a robot for this.

I do know that when people *change* their tip, they have trouble (change hardness, brand, or radius.)

caedos
06-01-2006, 08:31 PM
Absolutely!

As long as you have the history with that tip and shape things will be fine. Consistent performance is much easier to obtain with the same tool every time. I know each of us probably feels differently about using one shape or tip type or another. I've used many shapes, thicknesses, hard/med/soft, widths, types of tips and some different shafts. It's almost cliche, but find what you like and stick it out. There is no magic cue or tip. There are many high quality products out there. I even found a maple shaft, Triangle tip, fibre ferrule two-piece cue at my local sporting goods store for $19.95 plus tax.

Part of how I came to use roughly a nickel radius is that the radius of the tip will determine the position of the shaft's left and right edges relative to the cue ball when cueing the outermost edge of the hittable area on the cue ball. Part of my routine over the life of my tip is to know how far out on the cue ball I can go before miscuing. That means every month or three, and every time I re-tip, I will miscue several times on purpose. By striking specific up, down, left, right, and in between places on the cue ball I build fresh memories of what I can do when I need extreme spin on the cue ball. The radius of the tip helps those points stay consistent.

Which is more important: maintaining the good curved radius of the right shape, or keeping the thickness of the tip the same as long as possible even if it is a bit deformed? Inquiring mind wants to know!



Mavs just won game 5!

night night,


Carl

cushioncrawler
06-02-2006, 02:14 AM
I agree, the tip iz generally more important than the cue -- but in a way every tip iz better than every other tip, somewhere someway for someone sometime -- same thing for cues.

Likewize tip radius -- but my vote goes to an infinite radius -- ie a flat tip -- i dont know why these arent more popular.

In fact, i got promising rezults with a negative radius -- ie a concave tip -- alltho i only did a rough job of it -- i drilled a small hole in the center of the tip -- same thing nearnuff -- the rezults were promising but i didnt persevere -- perhaps later this year.

In fact, i got very good rezults with a flat-sided tip -- here u sandpaper a flat side on the tip, and allso on the ferrule -- then, when u use side or screw or top, u hold the cue so that the flat bit faces the center of the qball -- eg for a draw the flat is held horizontal, up.

DickLeonard
06-02-2006, 05:19 AM
BillyBob I always cut an X in the tip with my razor knife giving the glue something to hold on to.####

MacGyver
06-05-2006, 02:08 AM
"I do know that when people *change* their tip, they have trouble (change hardness, brand, or radius.)"

Just for billy, but I wanted to note I went from Nickle to Dime and noticed an IMMIDIATE improvement in my game(especially using side english) and overall shotmaking/accuracy.

It took no time to get used to it, it was just better.