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Fran Crimi
05-29-2006, 08:30 PM
What are they going to do with all these record breakers like Bonds who took steroids? Shouldn't they be asterisked at the least? Do these guys deserve to be in the HOF? Maybe they could have two Baseball Halls of Fame and two sets of records; one for non steroid users and one for steroid users.

Fran

nAz
05-29-2006, 09:05 PM
hey Fran.... I am with you on this, there really should be an asterisk next to the players names that have broken records due to steroid use... but how will we ever know for sure who is and who isn't on the juice if they are not being tested.
all this makes me wonder how many more home runs Arron and Ruth would have hit if they were juiced up like many of the players today, oh and if the were also playing with a juiced up ball.

I hear Arron said in an interview not long ago that if steroids were available in his time he would have used them, anything to win he said.

Anyway 30 years from now or sooner i think people will look back at Baseball and call this last ten years or so the Steroid era, what a shame!

LastBall
05-29-2006, 10:17 PM
The fact that the keepers of baseball have let this happen in unconscionable. Forget about asterisks these guys should be kicked out of the game and removed entirely from the record books but as nAz points out we only know of a likely few so it's impossible to correct the record books or the system. I'm feeling ill just sitting here thinking about this.

Qtec
05-30-2006, 02:59 AM
If they give him the record they are justifying the use of drugs in sport. That cant be right.
From what limited knowledge I have on baseball, its obvious to me that over the years there has been a distict lack of willingness for drug testing within the game. They dont want to know because drug use is rife.
Who knows, maybe in 10 years BB wont be able to lift a cup of coffee because of the steriods affecting his joints.
Will 14 year old kids be asking their coach for steroids because they want to be like BB? If they give him the record, how can the coach say 'no'?

IMO, its wrong on all levels. Whoever gave BB the drugs is not a coach.

Q.....

Rich R.
05-30-2006, 03:13 AM
Fran, I'm torn on this issue.

At least some of the players involved were using these substances before they were banned. Should they be penalized for taking something that was leagal, when they took it?

Although many of us are convinced that Bonds took steroids, from what I understand, he has never failed a drug test. If that is true, how can you penalize him?

I don't mean to sound like I'm defending steroid use. I am not and all players caught intentionally using steroids should be banned for life. However, there is a huge gray area, where players were using substances that were not banned, at that time.

cushioncrawler
05-30-2006, 03:38 AM
Babe Ruthe never faced a pitcher on steroids, nor an umpire on steroids -- and Who and I Dont Know and What and Why and Because and Tomorrow and Today and Darn on steroids.

moblsv
05-30-2006, 05:41 AM
Steroids are cheating, MLB didn't care, we are stuck with these records now.

Baseball is a great game and MLB ruined it decades ago. Here's another problem with MLB

1. Alex Rodriguez $25,680,727
2. Derek Jeter $20,600,000
3. Jason Giambi $20,428,571
4. Mike Mussina $19,000,000
5. Randy Johnson $15,661,427
6. Johnny Damon $13,000,000
7. Hideki Matsui $13,000,000
8. Jorge Posada $12,000,000
9. Gary Sheffield $10,756,171
10. Mariano Rivera $10,500,000
(Yankees top ten)
The entire Florida Marlins roster: $14,344,500

---------

http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/4387/328273.jpg http://www.wakeworld.com/MB/Discus/messages/4387/329603.jpg

Deeman3
05-30-2006, 06:18 AM
I don't know. I've been an advocate of business people using steroids for years to improve their performance in meetings and problem solving. So what if you end up with 36" bicepts and stones the size of raisins, do for the money.... /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


Deeman

DickLeonard
05-30-2006, 07:30 AM
Fran when I went to Cooperstown and saw the Babe's Bat I am still amazed that he could have swung it at all. That might be the only fair test when a player gets near his record give them a 53 oz bat to swing and see if they could hit the ball.
I read somewhere that his second last or last homerun before he retired traveled 620 feet. He was still rated as one the best outfielders of All time and his record as a pitcher was outstanding.####

wolfdancer
05-30-2006, 07:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
stones the size of raisins <hr /></blockquote> Well,there goes the old saying ".....couldn't carry his jockstrap"
I'm tired of hearing these rumors about Barry Bonds....they point to how slim he was when he was a rookie, and how bulked up he is now as proof.....but look at Babe Ruth...same thing, and nobody accused the Babe of taking performance enhancing drugs other then malt, hops, and potassium nitrate. Sure, folks might wonder, how many home runs would Eddie Gaedel have hit if steroids were available back then....but if Barry is on steroids....he ain't the only one.....and yet he stands out above the rest...
For about five years straight, I never saw a better hitter, and I had petitioned the Pope years ago, to declare Ted Williams a Saint.
Barry seemed to hit every pitcher's mistake, and hit it hard. During the record setting year he was getting maybe 3 hittable pitches per game, pitches in the strike zone, and most of them ended up in the bay.

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rich R.:</font><hr> Fran, I'm torn on this issue.

At least some of the players involved were using these substances before they were banned. Should they be penalized for taking something that was leagal, when they took it?

<hr /></blockquote>

Rich, when I first heard that argument, I thought the same as you. How can you penalize someone for doing something that wasn't "officially" illegal at the time? But then I started thinking about it from my personal experience and my opinion changed.

Drug-taking has been and continues to be an issue in pool because it's never really been addressed. I never took drugs to compete because I always felt it was cheating, even though no one made any official statement that we couldn't take drugs to play. I've played against players on drugs and many times it cost me. I know a lot of players who played against players who were using and it cost them too.

It's really a no-brainer. If you take performance-enhancing drugs, you are giving yourself an abnormal edge, and that's cheating. So back to baseball, even though it wasn't officially declared illegal, I believe these guys all knew they were cheating at that time. They can rationalize all the way to the bank, but they cheated. And for the odd ones who were stupid enough to think that they weren't cheating, then sorry Charlie, you should have thought differently.

Rather than reward them because they got off on a technicality, maybe we should be applauding those who made the choice not to cheat.

Fran

Rich R.
05-30-2006, 08:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr>Drug-taking has been and continues to be an issue in pool because it's never really been addressed. I never took drugs to compete because I always felt it was cheating, even though no one made any official statement that we couldn't take drugs to play. I've played against players on drugs and many times it cost me. I know a lot of players who played against players who were using and it cost them too.<hr /></blockquote>
Fran, I understand your point of view, however, I think the substances used in pool are different from those used in baseball. You have to remember that the steroids used by baseball players were once marketed as "dietary supplements" and they were available in health food stores. If I'm not mistaken, the drugs used by pool players were quite a bit different.

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 09:17 AM
I hear ya, Rich. I'd be curious to know how long it took them to figure out the deal on what they were taking. I bet they weren't all as ignorant for as long as they claim...certinaly not years worth. I even bet that some knew right away that these weren't dietary supplements. Ignorance is their only defense at this point. They have to say that.

Fran

Rich R.
05-30-2006, 10:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I hear ya, Rich. I'd be curious to know how long it took them to figure out the deal on what they were taking. I bet they weren't all as ignorant for as long as they claim...certinaly not years worth. I even bet that some knew right away that these weren't dietary supplements. Ignorance is their only defense at this point. They have to say that. <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, I won't claim that these players were ignorant. They knew that these "supplements" were helping them get stronger and heal faster after injuries. However, they were still classified as "supplements", just like your daily multiple vitamins. Until they were labeled as drugs, and considered illegal, I don't know how we can say they were cheating.
It is the players who continued to use steroids, after they were deemed illegal, who should be labeled cheaters and punished accordingly.

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 01:47 PM
This excerpt about Bonds' drug use was from a Sports Illustrated article:

"Of course Anderson's primary job, and the real reason he was hired, was to provide Bonds with performance-enhancing drugs and to track his regimen. Anderson obtained the drugs and administered them. In file folders, and on his computer, he kept calendars of Bonds's use of the substances, recording the drugs, dosages and cycles.

But Anderson didn't think of himself as Bonds's drug dealer. When Bonds paid him, he liked to think it was for weight training. As far as supplying drugs, Anderson thought of his role as "middleman." In San Francisco he knew AIDS patients who had prescriptions for testosterone and human growth hormone and were willing to sell their drugs for cash. Anderson bought and resold them virtually at cost to clients who wanted them for their anabolic effects. Likewise, Anderson knew many sources of conventional bodybuilders' steroids like Deca-Durabolin and Winstrol. He resold those at almost no markup as well. Bonds was keenly interested in performance-enhancing drugs. He asked their pharmaceutical names and then sought, through third parties, medical advice about the drugs. The medical advice was negative. You shouldn't take the drugs, he was told, but Anderson said those concerns were overblown, and Bonds ignored the advice he had sought.

Certainly the program Anderson devised worked. In the years after he linked up with Anderson, Bonds completely remade his body, and the results of Anderson's drug regime are now reflected in the record books. At an age when his father's baseball skills had begun to erode badly, Bonds's drug use would make him a better hitter than he had been at any time in his career -- and, perhaps, the best hitter of all time."

Fran Crimi
05-30-2006, 01:54 PM
I did a quick search on the history of Steriod use and when it all started in Baseball and it sure doesn't look to me like these guys were buying into the 'supplement' idea. It seems more like they knew excactly what they were doing and what these drugs were.

Here's an excerpt:

A history of baseball’s seduction by steroids can now finally be pieced together. First synthesized in central Europe in the 1930s, scientifically savvy athletes, such as Olympic shot-putters, began injecting artificial male hormones in the 1950s. Bodybuilders were close behind. For example, Austrian weightlifters who trained with the teenage Schwarzenegger told the Los Angeles Times that the future governor of California started using steroids in 1964 at age 17. In the 1970s and 1980s, the manly ladies of East Germany dominated the distaff side of the Olympics because their Communist regime forced steroids upon them.

This trend largely bypassed baseball, however, because ballplayers were among the last athletes (besides golfers) to try honest weightlifting. Pumping iron benefits almost all athletes, but the frustrations of reaching maximum natural strength within a few years can encourage some to then move on to steroids.

Baseball has always been, at best, proudly traditional and, at worst, lazily lackadaisical about innovation, especially if it involves hard physical or mental work. Ballplayers justified spending the off-season in the tavern rather than the gym because of the dread fear of becoming “muscle-bound.”

There were exceptions. A century ago, Honus Wagner, the slugging shortstop who was probably the greatest National Leaguer before World War II, lifted dumbbells. Similarly, after Babe Ruth’s embarrassing 1925 season, most observers thought the hard-living 30-year-old was permanently washed up. Instead, Ruth hired a personal trainer and worked out in a gym for the next ten winters, in the course of which he broke his own record with 60 homers in 1927. But Wagner and Ruth’s stupendous statistics didn’t convince lesser players, who refused to lift anything heavier than a beer mug. Mickey Mantle’s off-season exercise regimen consisted of going hunting when his hangover wasn’t too blinding.

Slowly, conditioning improved. More players cut back on the booze and a few of the most intelligent, such as Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan, and Brian Downing, started to lift weights.

Baseball’s first flagrantly obvious steroid abuser didn’t arrive until 1986, when the Oakland A’s Jose Canseco won Rookie of the Year. Canseco started out tall and slender in the minor leagues, but eventually bulked up to 240 pounds. Most tellingly, he possessed the juicer’s equivalent of the portrait of Dorian Gray: his identical twin Ozzie, who stayed spindly and in the minors for years, before eventually inflating himself too.

web page (http://www.amconmag.com/2004_04_12/article.html)