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SnakebyteXX
05-31-2006, 05:52 AM
Neo-Nazis, white supremacists and militiamen are revivified by the furor over illegal immigration

By JEFFREY RESSNER


Posted Monday, May 29, 2006

Pugnacious anthems and racist diatribes have never been in short supply at Nordic Fest, an annual white-power Woodstock held over the Memorial Day break near the former mining town of Dawson Springs, Ky. And this past weekend was no exception. On the agenda were a Triumph of the Will--themed running event and a cross "lighting" sponsored by the Imperial Klans of America. But something new did arise at Nordic Fest this year: bellicose talk and plans of action against illegal immigrants. Among the scheduled guest speakers was Hal Turner, a New Jersey Internet radio talk-show host who recently instructed his audience to "clean your guns, have plenty of ammunition ... and then do what has to be done" to undocumented workers.

With immigration perhaps America's most volatile issue, a troubling backlash has erupted among its most fervent foes. There are, of course, the Minutemen, the self-appointed border vigilantes who operate in several states. And now groups of militiamen, white supremacists and neo-Nazis are using resentment over the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants in the U.S. as a potent rallying cry. "The immigration furor has been critical to the growth we've seen" in hate groups, says Mark Potok, head of the Intelligence Project at the Southern Poverty Law Center. The center counts some 800 racist groups operating in the U.S. today, a 5% spurt in the past year and a 33% jump from 2000. "They think they've found an issue with racial overtones and a real resonance with the American public," says Potok, "and they are exploiting it as effectively as they can."

Both Potok's group and the Anti-Defamation League (ADL) are worried that extremists are burrowing their way into the anti-immigration mainstream. Mark Martin, 43, of Covington, Ohio, is a chef at a French restaurant and tends his backyard organic garden. But he also dons the black and brown uniform of western Ohio's National Socialist (read: Nazi) Movement. "There's nothing neo about us," he says. Martin admits he frequently harasses day laborers and threatens them with deportation. "As Americans, we have the right to make a citizen's arrest and detain them," he insists. "And if they try to get away, we have the right to get physical with them." Martin gleefully boasts about leading eight fellow storm troopers in disrupting a May 1 pro-immigrant rally in Dayton by taunting protesters. Although police ultimately restrained him, Martin believes his agitation was worthwhile because it attracted new recruits. "After the rally, the Klan called us," he says. "Now we've started working together more often."

In addition to white supremacists, the immigration debate seems to have reinvigorated members of the antigovernment militias of the 1990s. Those groups largely disbanded after the Oklahoma City bombing orchestrated by militia groupie Timothy McVeigh and, later, the failure of a Y2K bug to trigger the mass chaos some militia members expected. "We've seen people from Missouri and Kentucky militias involved in border-vigilante activity, especially with the gung-ho Arizona group Ranch Rescue that used face paint, military uniforms and weapons," says Mark Pitcavage, fact-finding director of the ADL. "It's a natural shift. Militias fell on hard times, and this anti-immigration movement is new and fresh."

One leader who has morphed from militiaman to Minuteman is Mike Vanderboegh, 53, of Pinson, Ala. Once the "commander" of what he called the First Alabama Cavalry Regiment Constitutional Militia, which published antiterrorism screeds, Vanderboegh is the past Alabama state director of the Minutemen. He has advocated hurling bricks through the windows of Congress members who support giving illegal immigrants the same rights as U.S. citizens. Those bricks, he says, should be used to build a wall sealing the U.S. off from Mexico. He argues that the open borders facilitate drug trafficking and the sexual exploitation of immigrant women.

Vanderboegh says he is not a racist, and he has taken pains to distance himself from neo-Nazis. He acknowledges that anti-immigrant sentiment is giving the Klan "fertile ground for recruiting," whereas a few years ago "they could have held a convention in a phone booth." "Illegal immigration and the destruction of the rule of law is social napalm, and people are running around with matches," he warns. "One day it will go off."

web page (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1198895,00.html)

Deeman3
05-31-2006, 07:24 AM
While I agree we should seal and protect our borders, we do have to be carefulo that this does not become a rally cry for the racists and an excuse to condone violence.

The Michigan Militia and others always perolate below the surface and are just waiting for a reason to turn people against each other. We have to remember the target is to protect our nation against illegal invaders, not legitimate immigrants and others who have been here and eraned citizenship. These mongrel groups will try to make the line between the groups fuzzy and use that as a reason to foster hate. I think most of us are bigger then that.

Deeman

Gayle in MD
05-31-2006, 08:52 AM
This is what happens when lawmakers refuse to enforce the law. What a shame.

Gayle in Md.

ceebee
06-01-2006, 03:04 PM
Senator Bill Frist, a very very dishonorable S.O.B., was quoted the other day concerning his fellow Congressman, Mr. Jefferson. When the FBI was rummaging through Mr. Jefferson's Congressional Office and there were questions about this process, Mr. Frist said, "No one is above the Law". \

Mr. Bill Frist doesn't seem to care that millions of illegal immigrants (from everywhere it seems) have broken the law. He has sided with their plight and against our law. He's proved himself to be a card carrying two-faced S.O.B., who somehow delights in seeing this country lose it's future to this invading mob.

That is about as much candy as I can coat this problem with today.

Gayle in MD
06-02-2006, 05:15 AM
It would be very interesting to see a list of those Corporations which benefit most from the cheap foreign labor, and the amount in stock holdings, held by Congressmen and Senators. I'm surprised Lou Dobbs hasn't yet included a list of those numbers. He does maintain a list of American Companies/Corporations which outsource American Jobs on his website.

Let me tell you, between refusing to buy goods imported from China, and trying to buy only clothing and goods which are produced here in our country, shopping for me, atleast, is a nightmare! But I refuse to buy anything from companies that outsource, or anything from China, or France!

Now we learn, that China has been exporting fake drugs into our country. People fighting cancer, or alsheimers disease, and other diseasees, are suffering needlessly because they are taking fake drugs shipped into our country, from China! Viagra, and oxycontin, among the greatest in numbers, but also, medicines used to offset the devastating side effects of cancer treatments, and even blood pressure medicine. Dateline is doing a story about this, either tonight, or sunday night, I think.

Gayle in Md.

SnakebyteXX
06-02-2006, 07:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr>
Let me tell you, between refusing to buy goods imported from China, and trying to buy only clothing and goods which are produced here in our country, shopping for me, atleast, is a nightmare! But I refuse to buy anything from companies that outsource, or anything from China, or France!


Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle, I remember people taking this 'Buy American' position back in the 70's/80's regarding cars. It was particularly popular in the Mid-West where a lot of my relatives lived at the time.

I remember looking at the issue and asking myself: What kind of car do I want to own and drive? An American model that at that time had the reputation for rapid depreciation, crappy gas mileage and frequent break-downs or a host of foreign models that offered slow depreciation, good gas mileage and high reliability? For me it was a no-brainer, no amount of misconstured 'Made in America' loyalty was going to get me to buy an inferior product.

I chose to buy a foreign car. So did a whole lot of other Americans and that's why Toyota, Honda, BMW, Nissan et al have had such a huge impact on American markets in the decades that have since passed. In the interim the quality of American made autos has risen dramatically in an effort to compete. It's been win/win for consumers.

A fundamental rule of economics implies that American businesses MUST compete with foreign products either on the basis of price or quality. If they can't compete, no amount of consumer boycotting is going to change the eventual outcome - those businesses will fail.

Like it or not the outsourcing business model is changing the American landscape. Personally, I hate to see the Walmart paradigm succeeding so dramatically, particularly at the expense of local companies that can't compete on the basis of price and at the expense of an under skilled workforce that is left with little choice but to accept jobs that pay subsistance wages or go without employment.

However, the laws of economics have nothing to do with caring about people or countries - they have everything to do with competition and survival of the fittest. It's sad, but true.

Snake

Gayle in MD
06-02-2006, 09:51 AM
I agree completely, and I understand what you're saying about the principles of economics, and business, but I also think that we are discussing several different aspects simultaneously. On the one hand, products, and on the other, jobs.

Let us address American Manufacturing, for example. When other countries produce a higher quality automobile, for less money, how much does lower labor cost contribute to their ability to do so? Quite a bit, correct? I'm sure you have heard about Henry Ford, who vowed that he would not produce a product that those on his assembly lines could not afford to buy for themselves.

While better quality products at reasonable prices from other countries are appealing, and do serve to encourage American business to meet the challenge, how well are we served if in the long run American Companies outsource American jobs to foreign countries in order to meet that challenge? What good will come of cheaper prices, if the American labor force must pay for that advantage with their jobs being exported out of our country?

I realize that this issue of global enterprise is a complex one, and that the principles of supply and demand and quality products at cheaper prices encourage healthy competition, but when these other foreign countries begin to cheat on us by playing around with their currency values, so that we cannot have a fair playing field, then for me atleast, it's time to stop buying their products, even if the end result is that I do not get the cheapest price for the things I buy. And when Corporations care only about the bottom line, regardless of the negative consequences to their own country, American enterprise is not served in the long run, IMO.

I think that one of our greatest problems today, is that Corporate America is greedy, and unpatriotic. That they will sell us all out for their billion dollar retirement gifts, and do so while they are raking up huge tax gift profits compliments of George Bush. That they have no loyalty to American Workers, and that the wealthy CEO's are as much a threat to us as bin Laden, just in a different way. I do not think that Bush's current economic policies, ie, tax wise, foreign import/export practices, huge trade deficits, and national deficits, are good for our country. Not only that, but we have become dependent on our enemies for everything from fuel, to steel, to food, not to mention our real debt which we owe them, in the trillions, and the interest growing by leaps and bounds.

There was a time in our history when American Corporate CEO's had the balls and the patriotism, the integrity, grit and commitment, to meet economic and trade challenges right here in our country, with jobs for our own people, in order to keep American Manufacturing at high levels of success, and maintain our lead among the countries of the world. The way things are today, I cringe to think what would happen if there were another World War, and how we would gear up to build the ships, planes, arms, and fuel we would need to be powerful,.... Iran alone, could throw the United States into a great depression, with four and five hundred dollar a barrel oil prices, with the help I'm sure of other Arab, Latino and Central American countries.

I believe that as consumers, we have the power to turn around much of what is going on today that is bad for our country. All we need do is care enough to educate ourselves on the likely future consequences of doing nothing, in order to build the commitment necessary to do something.

Gayle in Md.

Cueless Joey
06-02-2006, 10:12 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think that one of our greatest problems today, is that Corporate America is greedy, and unpatriotic. That they will sell us all out for their billion dollar retirement gifts, and do so while they are raking up huge tax gift profits compliments of George Bush. That they have no loyalty to American Workers, and that the wealthy CEO's are as much a threat to us as bin Laden, just in a different way. I do not think that Bush's current economic policies, ie, tax wise, foreign import/export practices, huge trade deficits, and national deficits, are good for our country. Not only that, but we have become dependent on our enemies for everything from fuel, to steel, to food, not to mention our real debt which we owe them, in the trillions, and the interest growing by leaps and bounds.
<hr /></blockquote>
That's a big problem.

SnakebyteXX
06-02-2006, 11:59 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I agree completely, and I understand what you're saying about the principles of economics, and business, but I also think that we are discussing several different aspects simultaneously. On the one hand, products, and on the other, jobs.

Let us address American Manufacturing, for example. When other countries produce a higher quality automobile,
<font color="blue">Yes, they have done that - that's how they have built a market for their cars in the US. </font color>

for less money, how much does lower labor cost contribute to their ability to do so?
<font color="blue">Lower labor costs are only one facet of production. There are also issues (or were) amongst which are plant efficiency. IE. Ironically the fact that German and Japanese industry was bombed to smithereens during WWII and American industry was not meant that they were able to start from scratch building brand new and significantly more efficient factories. America on the other hand was saddled with out dated infrastructure and faced the steep costs of tearing down and rebuilding in order to compete with their foreign competitors increased efficiency.

Another issue was market strategy. The Japanese, for example, tend to view markets long term, American companies often lean hard on short term results. Honda broke into the American market with a tiny Honda motorcycle and built their niche from there. Quality and the emphasis on quality was and has been integral to the success of Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, Volvo, Subaru, etc.

Through the seventies and into the eighties American auto manufacturers fought implementing improvements to their cars that would have made them safer to drive (Lee Iacoca was instrumental in keeping air bags out of his cars for years.). They fought against making their cars safer on the basis that to do so would drive up the cost of production and keep them from competing with their foreign counter parts. Resistance to government regulations regarding emissions, safety, and fuel economy have been a common thread in the US auto industry. OTOH: Many of their foreign competitors have devoted themselves to producing a quality product that included increased saftey, reduced emmissions (Prius comes to mind) and fuel economy.

The Japanese have been working on hybrids for quite some time and the result is that as fuel prices have risen the need for cars with superior fuel economy has drawn more and more attention and customers to Japanese hybrids. Conversely, we have American auto manufacturers that have been catering to the conspicuous consumption, status symbol, crowd - turning out high dollar, high profit, SUV gas hogs. In spite of ample signals that the price of oil and gas were on the rise.

Time after time, foreign auto makers have been several steps ahead of US auto makers because of this difference in long term versus short term market views. </font color>

Quite a bit, correct? I'm sure you have heard about Henry Ford, who vowed that he would not produce a product that those on his assembly lines could not afford to buy for themselves.
<font color="blue">Yes, I have heard of Mr. Ford. He was the first to install assembly lines and the first to pay his workers the then unheard of high wage of five dollars a day. He paid the high wage to avoid turn over and keep skilled workers. However, when the depression hit and unemployment went through the ceiling, he kept wages low, sped up the pace of his assembly lines, and hired a gang of thugs to walk the factory floor beating and punching workers who were not moving fast enough to keep up. Ford was a royal a$$hole and an anti-Semite to boot. </font color>

While better quality products at reasonable prices from other countries are appealing, and do serve to encourage American business to meet the challenge,

<font color="blue">Sadly, it's not about 'encouraging' it's about survival. American companies must meet the challenge or die - plain and simple. </font color>

how well are we served if in the long run American Companies outsource American jobs to foreign countries in order to meet that challenge? What good will come of cheaper prices, if the American labor force must pay for that advantage with their jobs being exported out of our country?

<font color="blue">Changes in technology, changes in the economic environment, changes period are the only thing we can count on. There are countless examples of jobs becoming antiquated and outmoded. Remember what happened when steam train engines were replaced by diesel engines and there was no longer a need for a fire tender? For a while they kept the position anyway and paid for fire tenders even though there was no longer a fire to be tended. It was called 'feather bedding' if I remember correctly - an absurd practice by any stretch of the imagination.

Those who have been and will be displaced by the outsourcing will HAVE to find another means to support themselves. What that means is or might be remains a mystery for many. However, economic law not sentiment dictates that this change must occur - . </font color>

I realize that this issue of global enterprise is a complex one, and that the principles of supply and demand and quality products at cheaper prices encourage healthy competition, but when these other foreign countries begin to cheat on us by playing around with their currency values, so that we cannot have a fair playing field,

<font color="blue">Not sure what a 'fair playing field' has to do with anything. Life isn't fair and the playing field has never been nor will it ever be 'level' - period. </font color>

then for me atleast, it's time to stop buying their products, even if the end result is that I do not get the cheapest price for the things I buy.

<font color="blue">That's your perogative. I wish you peace and happiness in your efforts. </font color>

And when Corporations care only about the bottom line, regardless of the negative consequences to their own country, American enterprise is not served in the long run, IMO.

<font color="blue">I agree completely, however, American enterprise has been polluting the environment, razing the forests and otherwise raping and pillaging our natural resources since this country was founded. We are not innocent victims here but perhaps at this point because we've finally begun to wake up to the damage that's been caused we are no longer able to compete with the 'negative consequences' thing like we once were. </font color>

I think that one of our greatest problems today, is that Corporate America is greedy, and unpatriotic. That they will sell us all out for their billion dollar retirement gifts, and do so while they are raking up huge tax gift profits compliments of George Bush. That they have no loyalty to American Workers, and that the wealthy CEO's are as much a threat to us as bin Laden, just in a different way. I do not think that Bush's current economic policies, ie, tax wise, foreign import/export practices, huge trade deficits, and national deficits, are good for our country. Not only that, but we have become dependent on our enemies for everything from fuel, to steel, to food, not to mention our real debt which we owe them, in the trillions, and the interest growing by leaps and bounds.

<font color="blue">We could spend DAYS if not WEEKS talking about this subject all by its lonesome. </font color>

There was a time in our history when American Corporate CEO's had the balls and the patriotism, the integrity, grit and commitment, to meet economic and trade challenges right here in our country, with jobs for our own people, in order to keep American Manufacturing at high levels of success, and maintain our lead among the countries of the world.

<font color="blue">This just sounds like so much soap box BS, Gayle. We have maintained our lead in the past for MANY reasons amongst which were changing with the times. As we know, the times they are a changing. It's change or die just like always - now is no different from then except communications and transportation have sped up to the point that it's now more efficient (and more expedient) to outsource than it ever was before. </font color>

The way things are today, I cringe to think what would happen if there were another World War, and how we would gear up to build the ships, planes, arms, and fuel we would need to be powerful,....

<font color="blue">If there is another World War it will be fought with missiles and nuclear bombs. The next war after that will be fought with sticks and stones. </font color>

Iran alone, could throw the United States into a great depression, with four and five hundred dollar a barrel oil prices, with the help I'm sure of other Arab, Latino and Central American countries.

<font color="blue">If and when that time comes and given that we've had ample warning to know that it IS coming, whose fault will it be if we are not prepared? The buck stops here not there. </font color>

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color>

Deeman3
06-02-2006, 12:58 PM
Snakebyte,

Nicely said. The issues are very complex and defy simple political answers.

Deeman

Gayle in MD
06-02-2006, 01:09 PM
Well, you certainly have a much broader understanding of the subject than I, and your post is very interesting.

I surely don't mean to BS you about the honor of traditional American entreprenuers. While I agree that the last thirty to forty years have shown us a different animal in that arena, I truly do believe that the companies of yesterday, with exceptions of course, had much more loyalty to their employees, and their country, than those of today.

They weren't all saints, surely not, but they certainly weren't the exploitative, fascist pigs that I read about today. In many ways, we are saying the same things, such as the irresponsibility and greed displayed by huge Corporations, which you speak to in your reference to the Auto Industry, refusing to implement safety gear, address our fuel issues, and support environmental changes which impact all of us. I agree completely that American corporate interests are driven strictly by the bottom line, and that they deserved to lose the business they lost to the foreign auto industry, for example, however, I don't agree that outsourcing has proven to be the profit windfall for businesses that they assumed it would become. In fact, in many cases they have lost business by outsourcing, and many are beginning to re-think that process, which is good news IMO.

As for WWIII, that description was not the best one to use, on my part, however, it seems the United States has been fighting wars on and off for many years, and in many locations around the world, in spite of the nuclear threat, and nuclear weaponry proliferation, and fighting them with boots on the ground, ships, planes and all other manner of traditional equipment, but if we found ourselves in circumstances which call for an expeditious gear-up, there is concern regarding how we would meet that challenge, given our losses in steel production, and resulting in concerns over equipment availability. I find it a bit daunting when watching the news videos of the many marching Chinese soldiers, for one example, and all their war equipment, and the pictures of crouds of Arabs, screaming death to America, and at the same time knowing that we are no longer the leader in the steel industry, have no draft, and that we are a Nation in debt, and in debt to potential enemies, who have a strong hold on our economy in many ways.

Gayle in Md.