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Eric.
05-31-2006, 06:37 AM
There seems to always be a big debate over what "speed" people play. Truthfully, I think most people have themselves overrated. I know it sounds condescending, but it usually holds true.

Joe Tucker has a thing he uses that proves to be pretty accurate. It goes like this:

Rack up some 10 ball. Break from anywhere. After the break, take ball in hand and run out, in rotation (1, 2, 3, etc...) All balls made on the break count. Any balls made on a scratch are spotted. Once you miss, the rack is over. You should shoot 10 racks and count the total balls made for each rack. After 10 racks, take your total and compare it to this chart:

30-35 D+
36-40 C
41-45 C+
46-50 B
51-55 B+
56-60 A
61-65 A+
66-70 A++
71-up Pro

I'm not sure if it matters waht size table. I like this rating system because it takes alot into account as far as player ability i.e. shotmaking, position play, cluster breaking, break skill. It makes no difference if you play 10 ball or not, the results are very close to reality.

Anyone care to post results?


Eric

nAz
05-31-2006, 07:58 AM
Interesting... not sure if it would be all that accurate for Straight pool.
wonder if you can do something similar to rate 14.1 "speed" like racking up the balls and setting up a BIH break shot and seeing how many balls a player can run, maybe doing this 10 times and averaging it out will give a good rating for the player.

I'll post my results on Friday since i probably won't play till then. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Eric.
05-31-2006, 08:14 AM
It really is pretty accurate. While it won't tell you how good of a 14.1 player you are, it will give you a real good idea of one's abilities. After all, the skills involved more or less encompass all games of pocket billiards.

On a side note, D. Barouty hates 9 ball, plays 14.1 almost exclusively, but don't think he can't play world class 9 ball /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif


Eric

Rich R.
05-31-2006, 08:43 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr>On a side note, D. Barouty hates 9 ball, plays 14.1 almost exclusively, but don't think he can't play world class 9 ball /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif<hr /></blockquote>
I have always believed that a world class 14.1 player can play any of the other pool games, such as 9-ball, 8-ball and one pocket, at a world class level. The reverse is not necessarily true. JMHO.

bigjake
05-31-2006, 12:52 PM
uhhhhh this is probably a stupid question, whats 10 ball? /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

bsmutz
05-31-2006, 01:52 PM
Just like 9-ball only you add the 10 ball. Rack like 8-ball with the 10 in the middle and 4 rows of balls instead of 5(4 balls in the last row).

bsmutz
05-31-2006, 01:56 PM
There's one area of your rules that I don't quite follow. You say you spot a ball on a scratch. If you scratch on the break, it makes sense to do this. If you scratch after the break, wouldn't that end your rack? If so, no need to spot. Or is it if you make your ball and scratch, you spot the ball made and continue shooting with BIH? If this is the case and you make two balls on the scratch shot, do you spot both? TIA for the clarification.

Billy_Bob
05-31-2006, 01:56 PM
This seems like a fair rating system. Thanks.

FYI shooting left-handed as I have been, I am lucky to run 1 ball, so that would give me a score of 10. I guess that would make me an "H"? /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

(Actually I did manage to run 3 balls left-handed yesterday and have won a few games.)

supergreenman
05-31-2006, 02:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> There seems to always be a big debate over what "speed" people play. Truthfully, I think most people have themselves overrated. I know it sounds condescending, but it usually holds true.

Joe Tucker has a thing he uses that proves to be pretty accurate. It goes like this:

Rack up some 10 ball. Break from anywhere. After the break, take ball in hand and run out, in rotation (1, 2, 3, etc...) All balls made on the break count. Any balls made on a scratch are spotted. Once you miss, the rack is over. You should shoot 10 racks and count the total balls made for each rack. After 10 racks, take your total and compare it to this chart:

30-35 D+
36-40 C
41-45 C+
46-50 B
51-55 B+
56-60 A
61-65 A+
66-70 A++
71-up Pro

I'm not sure if it matters waht size table. I like this rating system because it takes alot into account as far as player ability i.e. shotmaking, position play, cluster breaking, break skill. It makes no difference if you play 10 ball or not, the results are very close to reality.

Anyone care to post results?


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

This rating system only takes into consideration a rotation game. in otherwords a shotmakers game. defense and strategy are not reflected at all.

James

tjlmbklr
05-31-2006, 05:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> There seems to always be a big debate over what "speed" people play. Truthfully, I think most people have themselves overrated. I know it sounds condescending, but it usually holds true.

Joe Tucker has a thing he uses that proves to be pretty accurate. It goes like this:

Rack up some 10 ball. Break from anywhere. After the break, take ball in hand and run out, in rotation (1, 2, 3, etc...) All balls made on the break count. Any balls made on a scratch are spotted. Once you miss, the rack is over. You should shoot 10 racks and count the total balls made for each rack. After 10 racks, take your total and compare it to this chart:

30-35 D+
36-40 C
41-45 C+
46-50 B
51-55 B+
56-60 A
61-65 A+
66-70 A++
71-up Pro

I'm not sure if it matters waht size table. I like this rating system because it takes alot into account as far as player ability i.e. shotmaking, position play, cluster breaking, break skill. It makes no difference if you play 10 ball or not, the results are very close to reality.

Anyone care to post results?


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks for puting this up there. It made me realise how much I suck; but I allready knew that. My numbers were so low I sh#t my pants. I seriously don't know why I play this game I am the most inconsistant pool player on the face of the planet. Tomorrow I might do it and get double the points. I NEVER know how I am going to shoot. I even paid good money for lessons with Scott Lee. I realise that I need a therapist to help my with my gaem I need motivation to figure what the F#$k is wrong with me. Why is it one day I can go to the table and see all the angles and get the exact leave I was going for, even multiple railers. Then a half hour later I can't make a F_ing ball for the life of me. I see it or I don't. There for I never know how I am goig to shoot which is why I don't gamble. Some days the stick just doesn't even feel comfortable in my hands. I just can't figure it out.

Anyway thanks for letting me rant.

Oh did I mention ....I SUCK

dtomasi
06-01-2006, 02:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tjlmbklr:</font><hr>
Thanks for puting this up there. It made me realise how much I suck; but I allready knew that. My numbers were so low I sh#t my pants. I seriously don't know why I play this game I am the most inconsistant pool player on the face of the planet. Tomorrow I might do it and get double the points. I NEVER know how I am going to shoot. I even paid good money for lessons with Scott Lee. I realise that I need a therapist to help my with my gaem I need motivation to figure what the F#$k is wrong with me. Why is it one day I can go to the table and see all the angles and get the exact leave I was going for, even multiple railers. Then a half hour later I can't make a F_ing ball for the life of me. I see it or I don't. There for I never know how I am goig to shoot which is why I don't gamble. Some days the stick just doesn't even feel comfortable in my hands. I just can't figure it out.

Anyway thanks for letting me rant.

Oh did I mention ....I SUCK <hr /></blockquote>

You are not alone and I suspect that we have plenty of company. As bad as I am, I still love to play the game. Don't beat yourself up so much. Hang in there.

homepc
06-01-2006, 07:10 AM
Anyone care to post their rating/balls made? I will try this tonight and post mine. I will be honest! I've always thought that I was about a B player. Guess I will find out.

Billy_Bob
06-01-2006, 08:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tjlmbklr:</font><hr> ...I seriously don't know why I play this game I am the most inconsistant pool player on the face of the planet. Tomorrow I might do it and get double the points... <hr /></blockquote>

Well I have my up's and downs as well. Everybody does. I think the main thing to me is that I am having fun.

Even now with my right hand out of action, I invited a couple of friends over last night and watched them play. I did not play one game. But we all had fun anyway.

One guy had been sharked at a previous match and it got to him, so I taught him all about sharking by demonstrating things I have seen other players do. Standing in front of pocket, etc. And this was a lot of fun.

I was playing a guy awhile back in a tournament. He won 1st and I won 2nd. He said he could care less if he won anymore and I found this interesting because I feel the same way sometimes. So we were both there, relaxed, just having fun, neither of us cared if we won or not, and we took 1st and 2nd.

Note that there were many other people there who were trying very hard to win 1st, but did not! Then they got disgusted with themselves, beat up on themselves, etc. I don't think they were having fun?

So have fun - life is short - if you win something fine, if you don't, no big deal...

P.S. I have a friend who won 3rd in another tournament and was quite disgusted with himself. He wanted 1st real bad. I pointed out to him he should be proud of himself and that others would give their eye-teeth to win 3rd just once! I also tried explaining that when you get into the money, you are playing the better players. You need to learn how to win against these guys. Just can't start out winning 1st. (Went in one ear and out the other...)

Eric.
06-01-2006, 08:28 AM
Just a follow up-

bsmutz-you only spot up on balls made off the break, when you scratch. All balls are spotted. Otherwise, the inning is over, you just start another game.

James- while this doesn't factor in strategy and defense, I feel this does accurately rate players for all games cept for one pocket and bank pool. IMO, the most important skills in most pocket billiards games are strong shotmaking and good position. I'm oversimplifying but essentially, leave yourself easier shots and DON'T MISS. If you improve these two areas, defense and strategy become less of a factor.

B_Bob- You are a guru. I guess you should keep on teaching your students. It sounds like you get as much out of it as, hopefully, they do.

homepc- I played 10 racks last nite:

1- 3 balls
2- 10
3- 7
4- 10
5- 5
6- 4
7- 8
8- 5
9- 6
10-9

I'll add that my break seemed to be working well and I made balls on the break alot, more than usual, so the numbers are skewed to the higher side. Also, I just had my GC II recovered so the new cloth makes the pockets play easy. My average should be lower than last night. I think Joe Tucker recommends that you record 10 sets of 10 games to get an average.


Eric &gt;still a hack

dg-in-centralpa
06-01-2006, 10:00 AM
Eric,
Allen Hopkins had something like this a few years ago with 9 ball instead of 10 ball. I was averaging upper 50's to low 60's on a bar box. Put me on a 9 footer and I'd be lucky to score over a 30. I don't play the big tables much.

DG - a ball banger

Eric.
06-01-2006, 10:50 AM
I hear ya, Duane. I'd imagine playing a bar baox would give you higher scores due to the forgiving pockets and easier shots.


Eric

bsmutz
06-01-2006, 11:52 AM
I played a couple of games last night to try this out and as luck would have it, the 3rd or 4th ball ended up in a place that required position even Efren would have been hard pressed to achieve. Of course, a safety would be pretty easy to play when a ball is tied up like this, but no safeties allowed in this format. I will try it again sometime, but I agree that it would probably take more than 10 games to be confident that it is a realistic average. I would also question the validity of this test to gauge overall ability. Seems like it would be biased toward shotmaking.

SteveFromNY
06-01-2006, 11:56 AM
interesting. I'm going to give this a shot tonight. Ive been practicing 10-ball a lot recently and for some damn reason that ONE extra ball makes such a big difference. Or do my eyes deceive me?

Eric.
06-01-2006, 12:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Seems like it would be biased toward shotmaking. <hr /></blockquote>

Shotmaking and more specifically, position play is the heart and soul of Pool. An argument can be made that if one had better breaking skills/cb control and better postion play, then you wouldn't be shooting so many difficult shots. Poor position play leads to more and more difficult shots in the rack because you are working harder to get back in line. Good players seem to stay inline better and recover better from the occasion loose play, which makes the game seem like you are only shooting hangers. Obviously, it's easier said than done...

StevefromNY- I agree with you on your opinion of 10 ball. It's not just one extra ball. More clusters, less balls going in on breaks, make for a tougher game than 9 ball.


Eric

Scott Lee
06-01-2006, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tjlmbklr:</font><hr>
I even paid good money for lessons with Scott Lee. I realise that I need a therapist to help my with my gaem I need motivation to figure what the F#$k is wrong with me. Why is it one day I can go to the table and see all the angles and get the exact leave I was going for, even multiple railers. Then a half hour later I can't make a F_ing ball for the life of me. I see it or I don't. There for I never know how I am goig to shoot which is why I don't gamble. Some days the stick just doesn't even feel comfortable in my hands. I just can't figure it out.
<hr /></blockquote>

Terry...I am going to argue your point of view here. I'm positive that you have not done the short list of things that I showed you to practice, the WAY I showed you, in the ORDER I showed you, with the DISCIPLINE that I recommended...and done them EVERY day, the very first thing on the table before anything else. I suspect this because of your post. Most students who actually follow my advice (to the letter), will experience a significant improvement in overall consistency, and a higher level of play, within 3-4 weeks of this kind of very disciplined practice. Yes, you did pay "good money" for lessons...but if you don't follow the recommended procedure for quick improvement, I can't guarantee anything will improve for you. Go back and watch the tapes over again, and PAY attention to exactly what I told you to do...then DO IT!

Remember what I said...SHORT periods (10-15 minutes max, with a break in between) of high attention, strict discipline (play every attempt like it was the GAME shot), short reps...and most important, go on to the next exercise, even if you don't succeed. Use the pre-shot routine that we worked out for you. It cannot be ingrained yet, or you probably wouldn't be experiencing the severe highs and lows you are posting about.

You can lead a horse to water... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

dg-in-centralpa
06-01-2006, 01:27 PM
If you shoot the 10 ball in from a combo early, does that count as 10 points? The 9 ball version had the 1 ball for the first rack, 2 ball for the second, and so on, plus once you broke it was ball in hand anywhere, not where the CB ended. Definitely made it easier.

DG

tjlmbklr
06-01-2006, 02:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote tjlmbklr:</font><hr>
I even paid good money for lessons with Scott Lee. I realise that I need a therapist to help my with my gaem I need motivation to figure what the F#$k is wrong with me. Why is it one day I can go to the table and see all the angles and get the exact leave I was going for, even multiple railers. Then a half hour later I can't make a F_ing ball for the life of me. I see it or I don't. There for I never know how I am goig to shoot which is why I don't gamble. Some days the stick just doesn't even feel comfortable in my hands. I just can't figure it out.
<hr /></blockquote>

Terry...I am going to argue your point of view here. I'm positive that you have not done the short list of things that I showed you to practice, the WAY I showed you, in the ORDER I showed you, with the DISCIPLINE that I recommended...and done them EVERY day, the very first thing on the table before anything else. I suspect this because of your post. Most students who actually follow my advice (to the letter), will experience a significant improvement in overall consistency, and a higher level of play, within 3-4 weeks of this kind of very disciplined practice. Yes, you did pay "good money" for lessons...but if you don't follow the recommended procedure for quick improvement, I can't guarantee anything will improve for you. Go back and watch the tapes over again, and PAY attention to exactly what I told you to do...then DO IT!

Remember what I said...SHORT periods (10-15 minutes max, with a break in between) of high attention, strict discipline (play every attempt like it was the GAME shot), short reps...and most important, go on to the next exercise, even if you don't succeed. Use the pre-shot routine that we worked out for you. It cannot be ingrained yet, or you probably wouldn't be experiencing the severe highs and lows you are posting about.

You can lead a horse to water... /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>

Thanks Scott, obviously I know it was money well spent, and I understand very well every concept you tought me. Unfortionately I believe I have what I will go ahead and refer to to as "pool Bi-polar syndrom". There is a big mental block that I have been dealing with since I first picked up a cue. I know that very serious players have strict disipline like diet and sleep and focus, the one thing that I lack a great deal of lately. I have been searching for that special zone and how I got there for years now. I will go up to my pool room right after dinner and try again, starting with your drills Scott. But even those and a day to day basis range different then the next.

I don't know, maybe I just need to start caring less and be less competetive.

Brian in VA
06-01-2006, 02:08 PM
I have to vouch for Scott on this one! I find that when I start my practice session with the drills in the order I was taught, I am in stroke more quickly and for longer. My position play is better, I see the shots more clearly and I'm much more focused on each shot. I'm really looking forward to being able to do these drills more than once a week when my home table is installed next month.

I do still have streaks of bad along with the good but I'm able to get out of them more quickly. I immediately focus on a couple of keys that make the drills easier to do and I'm quickly back to making a confident stroke.

Am I a better player? Yes. Am I as good as I could be with more time and more discipline? I don't think so. Would a shrink also be helpful? Not sure but wish I could afford one to find out. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Just my 2 cents.
Brian in VA

Eric.
06-01-2006, 02:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dg-in-centralpa:</font><hr> If you shoot the 10 ball in from a combo early, does that count as 10 points? DG <hr /></blockquote>

Nope. Actually, I'm not sure what to do, maybe Joe Tucker will chime in.

Until then, I would count the 10 ball as 1 point and continue running balls until you miss or clear the table.


Eric

caedos
06-01-2006, 03:27 PM
I agree. Cue ball positioning and decision-making have big consequences in one-pocket, eight-ball, 14.1, and banks. However... sooner or later you still have to pocket balls, and that becomes the premium skill set. This appears to be a very good drill for evaluating and improving random layout pocketing skills. There are several games that try to accomplish this: '99', Bowlliards, and (my favorite) Equal Offense (invented by Jerry Brieseth). Table sizes do make a difference, as does the table setup and pocket dimensions. If everyone played on the same setup to compare, this would be great!


Carl

Cueless Joey
06-01-2006, 07:24 PM
I'm a B player on my really tight pocketed GC II.
I've been playing OK.
In two racks I was a threat to run out. Both ended after getting tough on the second to the last ball. One was unluck y to get frozen. One got tough on the side pocket as my side pockets are almost an half an inch smaller than normal sides.

Much improved in the last few weeks.
Got serious in doing the 13-ball exercise and the Monk's lesson number 10.
I'll try again when I have time. Getting 3-balls is a breeze per rack. 5 not so hard. 7 and up, you have to have a nice layout.

bsmutz
06-01-2006, 08:35 PM
Tonight I got 2, 10, 10, 5, 5, 5, 9, 3, 7, 6 for a total of 62. Felt pretty representative of my usual game. Made 4 balls on the break over the 10 racks. 9' table with 5" pockets. This was before playing snooker. Next time I'll try it after snooker.

Scott Lee
06-01-2006, 09:25 PM
Hey...Remember this: Having FUN is the ultimate goal here. The better you play, the more fun you have...right? Practicing correctly, for only 30 minutes or so a day, but with a lot of discipline and direction is reasonable, practical, and leads directly to consistent improvement. Play all you like, but trying to practice seriously, for hours at a time is unrealistic. It leads to boredom, frustration or anger...none of which are condusive to learning! JMO

Scott Lee

bsmutz
06-01-2006, 11:15 PM
That's why I go for fun all the time and never practice! LOL!!! That way I can play for hours and never get frustrated... Wait a minute, I do get frustrated. Oh well, it's still too much fun. Thanks again for your help, Scott. You helped send me in the direction I needed to go, even if I'm more of a dilettante than diligent.

dr_dave
06-02-2006, 08:12 AM
I got a 61 (A+), but I got a little lucky a couple of times, so I'm probably more of an "A" player. I shot on my 8' table, which has average speed cloth and average size pockets. I probably wouldn't do as well on other tables.

Here are my detailed results:
1: 5 (missed easy shot)
2: 2 (difficult clusters, would have played safety instead)
3: 10 (great break, easy run-out)
4: 8 (poor break, but made great position shot and tough cut, would have played safety instead)
5: 5 (got snookered on tough position play)
6: 7 (nice break-out, made tough bank, missed fairly easy shot)
7: 6 (got bad position off fairly easy shot)
8: 8 (left shot too straight, couldn't get good position)
9: 3 (made nice carom shot but couldn't get good position, missed tough bank, would have played safety instead)
10: 7 (left bad angle and couldn't get good position for next shot)

total score: 5 + 2 + 10 + 8 + 5 + 7 + 6 + 8 + 3 + 7 = 61 (A+)

Here are some of my observations:

- The drill was a fun challenge. I look forward to trying it out regularly to see how my results change.

- 10-ball is a lot tougher than 9-ball. I can see why the UPA is switching over. I still like 8-ball better (go IPT!).

- As others have pointed out, 10 racks are not enough for an average score.

- A good break is key! (obviously)

- As others have pointed out, one disadvantage of the drill is that it doesn't account for good safety play. Although, as others have pointed out, the drill is a good measure of breaking and shot making ability. I think a possible improvement to the scoring is to award a bonus point if a successful safety can be played on the final shot (when there is no reasonable offensive shot). By "successful," I mean your opponent won't have an offensive shot or an easier, more effective safety shot.

Thanks for posting this. I enjoyed it.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> There seems to always be a big debate over what "speed" people play. Truthfully, I think most people have themselves overrated. I know it sounds condescending, but it usually holds true.

Joe Tucker has a thing he uses that proves to be pretty accurate. It goes like this:

Rack up some 10 ball. Break from anywhere. After the break, take ball in hand and run out, in rotation (1, 2, 3, etc...) All balls made on the break count. Any balls made on a scratch are spotted. Once you miss, the rack is over. You should shoot 10 racks and count the total balls made for each rack. After 10 racks, take your total and compare it to this chart:

30-35 D+
36-40 C
41-45 C+
46-50 B
51-55 B+
56-60 A
61-65 A+
66-70 A++
71-up Pro

I'm not sure if it matters waht size table. I like this rating system because it takes alot into account as far as player ability i.e. shotmaking, position play, cluster breaking, break skill. It makes no difference if you play 10 ball or not, the results are very close to reality.

Anyone care to post results?


Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Billy_Bob
06-02-2006, 01:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Tonight I got 2, 10, 10, 5, 5, 5, 9, 3, 7, 6 for a total of 62... <hr /></blockquote>

That sounds accurate. I was thinking you are in the "A+" category. There is an "A" rated player around here, but his kicking skills are not as good as yours, so this makes sense. (Kicking *and* pocketing the balls quite often.)

As for Dr. Dave, I know he is quite modest, so I am not surprised that he is an "A" player.

wolfdancer
06-02-2006, 02:06 PM
What's Billy Bob's score?....the pool world awaits...
Mine by the way, is off the chart, too low to be posted here

ras314
06-02-2006, 06:34 PM
D /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

And it gets worse when the chips are down. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

It's a stupid game anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

PoolSharkAllen
06-02-2006, 07:49 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> It really is pretty accurate. While it won't tell you how good of a 14.1 player you are, it will give you a real good idea of one's abilities. After all, the skills involved more or less encompass all games of pocket billiards.

Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric: I think that applying this rating system to all games of pool (8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, straight pool, 1-pocket) is like comparing apples to oranges.

8-ball and 9-ball, for example, are completely different games with their own unique characteristics. I don't think it's appropriate to be extrapolating the results of this 10-ball exercise to other types of pool games.

kevinkins
06-02-2006, 08:09 PM
This drill was posted back in 2002 and is on Dr. Dave's site. Thanks for the repost as drills are importent to know about and discuss the merits. Rotation drills like this 10 ball one and one I found based on 9 ball are very break dependent. Taking ball in hand after the break helps reduce some of the "randomness".

- Kevin

tjlmbklr
06-03-2006, 05:49 AM
You know I never played 10-ball before this, and I realize now how much harder it is to make a ball on the break. With my Kevin Varney J/B cue, I can make 2 balls easily on the break in 9-ball. Why is that extra ball added to the rack make it so hard.

Billy_Bob
06-03-2006, 07:11 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> What's Billy Bob's score?....the pool world awaits... <hr /></blockquote>

I've been shooting left-handed due to injury, could only run 1 ball at a time (if lucky 3), so my score would have been about 10 for 10 games or 1 ball per game!

I just started playing with my right hand again, and was starting to get back up to speed last night. So I'll try this test soon.

dr_dave
06-03-2006, 07:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote tjlmbklr:</font><hr> You know I never played 10-ball before this, and I realize now how much harder it is to make a ball on the break. With my Kevin Varney J/B cue, I can make 2 balls easily on the break in 9-ball. Why is that extra ball added to the rack make it so hard. <hr /></blockquote>
I also had a hard time making balls consistently on the break. With 9-ball, it is easy to find break positions (e.g., close to the side rail) that will pocket the same-side wing ball and/or the 1-ball and/or the back ball with hard or soft breaks.

Does anybody have any 10-ball break position and/or speed advice that helps one pocket balls on the break?

Dave

PoolSharkAllen
06-03-2006, 07:40 AM
Dr. Dave: Regarding my earlier posting, have you found the skill-rating results for 9 or 10 ball to be applicable to Straight Pool, 8-ball or 1-pocket?

dr_dave
06-03-2006, 07:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote kevinkins:</font><hr> This drill was posted back in 2002 and is on Dr. Dave's site.<hr /></blockquote>
Actually, the link in the instructor and student resources area of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/resources/index.html) under "drills" was just added recently, and it is a link to this most recent posting of the drill.

But regardless of where it came from, it is still a useful and a fun challenge, even if it isn't a perfect measure on one's overall ability.

Dave

dr_dave
06-03-2006, 07:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolSharkAllen:</font><hr> Dr. Dave: Regarding my earlier posting, have you found the skill-rating results for 9 or 10 ball to be applicable to Straight Pool, 8-ball or 1-pocket? <hr /></blockquote>
For the convenience to others, here's a link to your earlier posting (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=227700&amp;page =0&amp;view=&amp;sb=&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

I would think the 10-ball drill would provide a good measure of 9-ball skill and a decent measure of straight pool skill.

I think I agree with you that one-pocket and 8-ball involve more strategy and unique challenges, so the 10-ball drill probably isn't the best measure. Howevert, as others have pointed out, ball pocketing and CB position conrol are important in all of the games. IMO, the drill does do a good job at measuring those skills.

Regards,
Dave

kevinkins
06-03-2006, 09:05 AM
15 ball ghost

Anyone know the rules for this practice game?

wolfdancer
06-03-2006, 11:32 AM
We could match up for $$, both shooting left-handed???
I'd give you a small spot, since I is left-handed...
I shoot some shots right-handed, instead of grabbing the rake.
Don't have a lot of feel though, and have to use an open bridge...still it's better then my right-handed bowling attempts....never broke a hundred...and doubt if I could break a hundred, golfing from the opposite side...which would be left-handed

Bumps
06-04-2006, 10:14 AM
Seems to me that Fargo or Equal Offense would give a much better all-around average. These games lend themselves to all games, not just the rotation style of play.

Billy_Bob
06-04-2006, 10:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> We could match up for $$, both shooting left-handed???
I'd give you a small spot, since I is left-handed...
<hr /></blockquote>

My friend who is left-handed played me right-handed a few times while I was having to shoot left-handed (That was a pretty cool thing for him to do). I told him he could go somewhere where they did not know him, play right-handed, then suggest playing for $$ and that he would even play them "left-handed"!

He seemed to like that idea!

Eric.
06-05-2006, 06:18 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolSharkAllen:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> It really is pretty accurate. While it won't tell you how good of a 14.1 player you are, it will give you a real good idea of one's abilities. After all, the skills involved more or less encompass all games of pocket billiards.

Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric: I think that applying this rating system to all games of pool (8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, straight pool, 1-pocket) is like comparing apples to oranges.

8-ball and 9-ball, for example, are completely different games with their own unique characteristics. I don't think it's appropriate to be extrapolating the results of this 10-ball exercise to other types of pool games. <hr /></blockquote>

If you think about the skills involved ie pocketing, position play, dealing with clusters, break skill and occasionally, kicking, this drill really does cover a wide area. Just because it's a "rotation" type of game, doesn't necessarily mean that it has no relevance to all other games. Arguably, the two biggest skills in all pocket billiard games is pocketing and good CB position skills. IMO.


Eric

Fran Crimi
06-05-2006, 06:31 AM
One thing about drills and self-tests, though, which I'm sure you and a lot of players know all too well. Things change when you find yourself playing against someone. I used to run a lot of local tournaments and the only true way I found to grade the players were to have them play each other in front of me or I'd play them, myself.

Fran

Eric.
06-05-2006, 07:05 AM
Agreed. While stuff like this doesn't measure how someone shoots under pressure or how someone can overcome another players momentum/control of the table, I think it does give a bit of standardization to compare apples to apples.


Eric

PoolSharkAllen
06-05-2006, 08:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolSharkAllen:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> It really is pretty accurate. While it won't tell you how good of a 14.1 player you are, it will give you a real good idea of one's abilities. After all, the skills involved more or less encompass all games of pocket billiards.

Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric: I think that applying this rating system to all games of pool (8-ball, 9-ball, 10-ball, straight pool, 1-pocket) is like comparing apples to oranges.

8-ball and 9-ball, for example, are completely different games with their own unique characteristics. I don't think it's appropriate to be extrapolating the results of this 10-ball exercise to other types of pool games. <hr /></blockquote>

If you think about the skills involved ie pocketing, position play, dealing with clusters, break skill and occasionally, kicking, this drill really does cover a wide area. Just because it's a "rotation" type of game, doesn't necessarily mean that it has no relevance to all other games. Arguably, the two biggest skills in all pocket billiard games is pocketing and good CB position skills. IMO.

Eric <hr /></blockquote>

Eric and Dr. Dave: As you know, in straight pool the balls in the rack are chipped away progressively. Ditto for 1-pocket. There's no obvious way you can apply a 10-ball sequential rotation drill to the games of 1-pocket and straight pool.

In 8-ball, it's much harder to sequentially navigate your way around 15 balls than it is in 9 or 10-ball games. Simply because of the differing level of difficulty (15 balls vs. 10), applying a rating to 8-ball players based upon a 10-ball drill is very much like comparing apples to oranges.

In large part, I think this 10-ball drill really measures one's breaking skills more than some other offensive skills. If you have a powerful break and you can spread the rack well, your chances of getting a higher score should increase substantially.

Finally, this 10-ball drill "measures" offensive abilities while completely ignoring the skills involved in making safeties and other defensive plays. In many sports, including pool, a better defensive player/team can beat a better offensive player or team.

My two-cents worth! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Eric.
06-05-2006, 09:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I think I agree with you that one-pocket and 8-ball involve more strategy and unique challenges, so the 10-ball drill probably isn't the best measure. Howevert, as others have pointed out, ball pocketing and CB position conrol are important in all of the games. IMO, the drill does do a good job at measuring those skills.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I think I disagree with 8 ball being such a unique game. While one hole has certain necessary skills that aren't completely covered in this drill, most of 8 balls skills are covered. 8 ball strategy and defense is not covered as this is a measure of one's offensive capabilities but then again, 8 ball is a highly offensive game. Other than the "jockeying for position" portion of certain 8 ball racks, it's basically run &amp; gun. All the skills i.e. cluster management, position play/routes, break skill and pocketing are all very important to 8 ball. I'm just curious how 8 ball is so different that this test wouldn't be a good measure for an 8 ball player.


Eric

Eric.
06-05-2006, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote PoolSharkAllen:</font><hr>
Eric and Dr. Dave: As you know, in straight pool the balls in the rack are chipped away progressively. Ditto for 1-pocket. There's no obvious way you can apply a 10-ball sequential rotation drill to the games of 1-pocket and straight pool.

In 8-ball, it's much harder to sequentially navigate your way around 15 balls than it is in 9 or 10-ball games. Simply because of the differing level of difficulty (15 balls vs. 10), applying a rating to 8-ball players based upon a 10-ball drill is very much like comparing apples to oranges.

In large part, I think this 10-ball drill really measures one's breaking skills more than some other offensive skills. If you have a powerful break and you can spread the rack well, your chances of getting a higher score should increase substantially.

Finally, this 10-ball drill "measures" offensive abilities while completely ignoring the skills involved in making safeties and other defensive plays. In many sports, including pool, a better defensive player/team can beat a better offensive player or team.

My two-cents worth! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote>

I think some people are missing the purpose of this ratings drill.

The purpose is not to rate one's proficiency in cetain games, the idea is to measure ones offensive ability.

In my experience, most, if not all pocket billiards games rely on good offensive skill. Sooner or later, ya gotta make some balls to win. 14.1 is not a "manuvering" game. Ya wanna win? Make a big shot and follow that shot up with a big run. One pocket? Same thing; you make a tough, big shot and run out from there. 8 ball? Jockey back and forth until you have a favorable run out and ...run out. Don't miss. Don't play bad position and get hooked. Just my grain of salt.


Eric

dr_dave
06-05-2006, 09:39 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> I think I agree with you that one-pocket and 8-ball involve more strategy and unique challenges, so the 10-ball drill probably isn't the best measure. Howevert, as others have pointed out, ball pocketing and CB position conrol are important in all of the games. IMO, the drill does do a good job at measuring those skills.

Regards,
Dave <hr /></blockquote>

I think I disagree with 8 ball being such a unique game. While one hole has certain necessary skills that aren't completely covered in this drill, most of 8 balls skills are covered. 8 ball strategy and defense is not covered as this is a measure of one's offensive capabilities but then again, 8 ball is a highly offensive game. Other than the "jockeying for position" portion of certain 8 ball racks, it's basically run &amp; gun. All the skills i.e. cluster management, position play/routes, break skill and pocketing are all very important to 8 ball. I'm just curious how 8 ball is so different that this test wouldn't be a good measure for an 8 ball player.<hr /></blockquote>
Eric,

You make some good points, and I agree with you that the drill is a great measure of breaking and offense skills. I was just pointing out that it doesn't measure the non-offensive skills (strategy and defense) sometimes important in 8-ball. Although, I agree with you that offensive skills are more important.

Regards,
Dave

nAz
06-05-2006, 12:49 PM
Ok Eric I did it 3 times and came up with an average of 35.3... err i guess that makes me a D+ player.
think i need to work on my game some more... I missed BIH 3 times /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif and had a many, many 1 ball runs.

BTW if you know any of the organizers of the Tri-state tour maybe you could talk to them and get me in as a D+?

homepc
06-05-2006, 01:22 PM
nAz

I'm with you!! I've been averaging only 35 balls for 10 racks!! Very disappointing! Each night I would go to my table and throw the 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 balls out on the table. I would run all the balls without much trouble. Although, I made sure there were no clusters, and spread well. I could do this for hours without having much trouble. Then I get to this 10 drill, thinking I'll run at least 5 to 6 balls in a row, only to find that I can't even put together a run of 3!! Very frustrating. I guess my method of running the 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 balls lulled me into a false sence of security. Having all 10 balls out there made a huge differance! Also I realize that my 5-9 ball drill, didn't mean anything. I wasn't keeping score, so I was more relaxed. with this 10 ball drill, now I'm sweating and missing most of my shots....I need to take a chill pill!

Qtec
06-07-2006, 02:37 AM
NaZ, the best players are the ones who can run out simple positions time after time.
Here is a simple position which anyone can run out but its easy to make a mistake. Try it 20 times and see how you do.

START(
%AH3J0%BG3V3%C_0W3%D^0G1%Er2P9%Fn9R8%GU3J6%HQ0K2%I L6K0%OL8^0
%PM6P1
)END

wei (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/%7Ewei/pool/)

Here's how to do it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

drill (http://www.absrotterdam.nl/intromain.htm)

Q

bsmutz
06-07-2006, 10:57 AM
That was exactly the way I played it in my head. It would be pretty easy to get out of position on that run.

yegon
06-09-2006, 02:20 PM
I made 54 today on my Brunswick Metro 9" table. That would put me into the B+ category (if I would not end the drill with a 2ball run and a 1ball run I would be in the A category)

You wrote that most players rate themselves too high and this test should show them their real speed. In my case this test does the opposite. I would rate myself at C+ to B- level. I can count my lifetime break and runs in 9ball on the fingers of my hands. I am happy to break and run 1-2 racks in a 100. I also get beat all the time by the better players in our country and they are certainly no A-s. I just started to work on the Probook shots and I can make the ball and play the required position about 10% of the time. Just for your information - 80% is required - I guess if you can make that you are an A player, but I am too far off to be a B+.

Cueless Joey
06-09-2006, 03:07 PM
Does your Metro have the factory pockets or shimmed?
The factory set pockets are more generous than Paris Hilton.

yegon
06-10-2006, 01:02 AM
it is the factory pockets but after playing on the table for one year it is not as generous as when I bought it. It plays like any other table I played on except for those with 10 years old rock hard rubber

jt10ball
06-10-2006, 07:36 AM
A note from the author,
I tried to stay out this but I just canít do it I have to let you know what Iíve done and what I think and hopefully itíll help end this debate which kind of seems like a waste of time. IMO
First off Iíve been using the drill myself for about 15 yrs (started with an average below 40 and can now bet on 75) and my students and for the most part itís been very, very accurate (except for those people who actually cheat themselves either by saying oh I would have made that if I were in a game, move balls that are tied up, quit when they get off to a bad start or simply mark down higher scores than they actually shot).

Secondly I do believe that the rating chart may need to be adjusted slightly as I believe there are more players playing at a higher level now than there were 15 yrs ago and there is more instruction available so players are improving faster and in general have more of a clue. I also believe our whole level of play as a group on average has probably risen as well.
Next I would like you to know that I actually ran 28 weeks of a handicapped league just using this format. If you were a 30 average and scored 30 balls you got just about 100 percentage points towards your weekly standings, if you were a 70 average and scored a 70 you got about 100 % points also but there were some bonus points involved as to take in consideration the laws of diminishing returns. Members in this league submitted 3 total scores each week (30 racks) and I had about 100 members that were spread out in a dozen rooms or so here in New England which means I received around 300 scores per week. So you can do the math and let me know if we should go by the unsupervised posters doing the drill 1 or 2 times or the thousands of scores I have on record.

The best thing about this league was that it had a 99% percent improvement rate. Everyone that finished the season finished with a higher average run than they began with and that is the main objective of the drill, for people to improve. So I donít really care if youíre a C player that averages 60 balls in rotation and I canít wait till youíre a B player averaging 80.

One final note was that not many players dropped out of the league but the ones that did seemed to be the ones with big egos that couldnít stand the fact that they couldnít run as many balls in reality as they thought they should (mostly players in the B range with and Iím not being mean but yes, they did have good defensive skills that helped them earn their current ratings)

Thank you all for discussing the drill and remember the bottom line is improvement and I do believe some people may score higher than their current rating calls for but I also believe if you shoot the drill 10x with any kind of pressure, the odds are youíll fall very close to your true rating. I wish I would have read this thread about a month ago because I just got done shooting Guaranteed Improvement for a DVD that will come with the book in the near future and I might have mentioned this discussion and possible adjusted the scoring.

Now, lets get the web cams out and have some internet 10 ball tournaments!!!

cycopath
06-10-2006, 08:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote yegon:</font><hr> I made 54 today on my Brunswick Metro 9" table.<hr /></blockquote>

I didn't realize the Metro came in a 9 inch version. I guess it's a good alternative for apartment and condo dwellers.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I always think of the movie 'This is Spinal Tap' when I see that typo made.

yegon
06-10-2006, 09:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cycopath:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote yegon:</font><hr> I made 54 today on my Brunswick Metro 9" table.<hr /></blockquote>

I didn't realize the Metro came in a 9 inch version. I guess it's a good alternative for apartment and condo dwellers.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I always think of the movie 'This is Spinal Tap' when I see that typo made. <hr /></blockquote>

So " is an inch? Gee I'll never learn these fancy US units. Guess it's time for you to join the rest of the world and measure in meters /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

yegon
06-10-2006, 10:03 AM
thanks for the input, I knew I am not as good /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Of course this drill is great to measure one's improvment and I am sure I will use it from time to time to chcek on me. I'll also do it several times during a week to get an average.

And I'd like to thak you for the great products you provide, I just got the breaking and aiming by the numbers DVDs last month and they helped me a lot, especially the aiming by the numbers. I have seen improvement in my pocketing ability after going through the drill for the first time.

Bumps
06-10-2006, 01:50 PM
Thanks to Eric for starting this thread and thanks to Joe for his input. I'll be trying this shortly. I tried it a couple of times after getting Joe's book, but moved and lost the damn book!{have since found it}

JDB
06-10-2006, 08:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> There seems to always be a big debate over what "speed" people play. Truthfully, I think most people have themselves overrated. I know it sounds condescending, but it usually holds true.

Joe Tucker has a thing he uses that proves to be pretty accurate. It goes like this:

Rack up some 10 ball. Break from anywhere. After the break, take ball in hand and run out, in rotation (1, 2, 3, etc...) All balls made on the break count. Any balls made on a scratch are spotted. Once you miss, the rack is over. You should shoot 10 racks and count the total balls made for each rack. After 10 racks, take your total and compare it to this chart:

30-35 D+
36-40 C
41-45 C+
46-50 B
51-55 B+
56-60 A
61-65 A+
66-70 A++
71-up Pro

I'm not sure if it matters waht size table. I like this rating system because it takes alot into account as far as player ability i.e. shotmaking, position play, cluster breaking, break skill. It makes no difference if you play 10 ball or not, the results are very close to reality.

Anyone care to post results?


Eric <hr /></blockquote>
I do this with 9 ball a lot, but never did it with ten ball. Based on my results in 9 ball, I would say this is pretty accurate.

I realize another ball would create more clusters but this would be offset by running an extra ball now and then. Therefore, I don't think my results would be materially different with ten ball than with 9 ball. Assuming, I would go down in my score with 10 ball, I think I would be in the low to mid 40's, which would put me at a c+/B- player, which I think is accurate.

JDB
06-10-2006, 08:35 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> I'm not sure if it matters waht size table. I like this rating system because it takes alot into account as far as player ability i.e. shotmaking, position play, cluster breaking, break skill. It makes no difference if you play 10 ball or not, the results are very close to reality.
Eric <hr /></blockquote>
I forgot to mention that I do think it matters what size table you play on for this system. I believe Joe's system assumes a 9 foot table.

I have never tried this on a 7 or 8 foot table; however, I think I would easily add 10 balls to my score with a smaller table.

Again, I have not tried it; however, I know that I play much better on a smaller table where I would probably move up to a B+ or possible A- on a smaller table (according to the ratings).

yegon
06-10-2006, 10:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote JDB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Eric.:</font><hr> I'm not sure if it matters waht size table. I like this rating system because it takes alot into account as far as player ability i.e. shotmaking, position play, cluster breaking, break skill. It makes no difference if you play 10 ball or not, the results are very close to reality.
Eric <hr /></blockquote>
I forgot to mention that I do think it matters what size table you play on for this system. I believe Joe's system assumes a 9 foot table.

I have never tried this on a 7 or 8 foot table; however, I think I would easily add 10 balls to my score with a smaller table.

Again, I have not tried it; however, I know that I play much better on a smaller table where I would probably move up to a B+ or possible A- on a smaller table (according to the ratings).
<hr /></blockquote>

pocketing balls would be easier on a 7 foot table but the table is so small that you would be almost guaranteed to have a cluster or two after breaking. It might be impossible to run out and if the cluster ties up the 3 ball your score would go down. Also the position on a small table would have to be more acurate. I am not sure it would be really easier on a small table.