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Billy_Bob
06-06-2006, 09:47 AM
I've received expert advice as to what I need to do to have a better stroke. And I was told I basically need to do this on my own.

So what I have done is to put up mirrors in my pool room. These are long mirrors you would hang vertical on a door, but I have hung them horizontal around my pool table at the level of the pool table. So I can see myself and it is a reminder to watch my stroke.

Also I'm going to try to get the guy I play pool with the most to go to a pro instructor with me and have him examine both of our strokes - tell us what we need to work on. (I have already done this.) But my thinking is that my friend will see what I need to be doing, and I will see what he needs to be doing. Then we can tell each other when we are not doing what we should be doing.

Also I am telling the better players I play with what I am supposed to be doing. And asking them to give me feedback.

So maybe some or all of the above will get me to break some bad habits? (Basically I need to hold my elbow closer to my body so my arm is straight up and down rather than at an angle. And pause before my final stroke. And doing this is showing good results...[when I remember to do it that is...])

allstar
06-06-2006, 07:27 PM
A few things to consider. The distance between your bridge hand and cue ball should be the same as the distance between where you grip the cue and the cues balance is. When you contact the cue ball your wrist should be directly under your elbow. Bring your cue tip back to your bridge on your warm up strokes and follow thru slowly.

Alfie
06-06-2006, 10:19 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote allstar:</font><hr> The distance between your bridge hand and cue ball should be the same as the distance between where you grip the cue and the cues balance is. <hr /></blockquote>I don't think this is true for all, or even most. Think of all players from short to tall.

The bridge length is determined first by what works best. Then the grip hand position is determined by the size of your skeleton. It has nothing to do with balance points, imo.

pooltchr
06-07-2006, 04:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote allstar:</font><hr> The distance between your bridge hand and cue ball should be the same as the distance between where you grip the cue and the cues balance is. <hr /></blockquote>I don't think this is true for all, or even most. Think of all players from short to tall.

The bridge length is determined first by what works best. Then the grip hand position is determined by the size of your skeleton. It has nothing to do with balance points, imo.
<hr /></blockquote>
Correct!
Steve

pooltchr
06-07-2006, 04:27 AM
BB,
The only problem with your theory is you are assuming that you and your friend will be able to see the problem. A good instructor is trained to observe and evaluate your stroke. I had a young lady come to me one night in the pool room to ask about her stroke. She told me that a very good player in the room had suggested she make some major changes. I watched her for about 5 minutes, only spotted one minor flaw in her alignment, and told her that if she changed anything else about her stroke, she would be moving backward. This girl's stroke was almost identical to Allison's. Players, even good players, aren't always the best source for help with your game.
Steve

Stretch
06-07-2006, 09:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>

So what I have done is to put up mirrors in my pool room. These are long mirrors you would hang vertical on a door, but I have hung them horizontal around my pool table at the level of the pool table. So I can see myself and it is a reminder to watch my stroke.
<hr /></blockquote>

Personaly, i just don't see mirrors as the answer to stroke straightening. There are good people you can seek out who will TELL you how it looks and what adjustments you may need. And there are drill shots that one can only exicute with a strieght stroke.

Now if i had mirrors i'd love to try setting them up and working on bank shots. Apparently shooting for the Mirror image of the pocket is a great way to knock down bank shots. Have you tryed it out with your mirrors yet? St.

Billy_Bob
06-07-2006, 10:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Stretch:</font><hr>...Now if i had mirrors i'd love to try setting them up and working on bank shots...<hr /></blockquote>

I saw this post and had to go try it. All these years I have been reading about mirror shots, etc. And now I have mirrors!

Well I tried it and it did not work. As it turns out, the mirrors are too far back from the table, so do not show an accurate banking image.

Billy_Bob
06-07-2006, 10:20 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> ...Players, even good players, aren't always the best source for help with your game...<hr /></blockquote>

FYI - The person who advised me about my stroke is a pro and an instructor. And he said I need to work on it myself basically. I was willing to keep going back to him as much as is needed to get it perfect, but he said it would be better for me to work on fixing it myself and take regular lessons from him (which I plan to do). And while taking regular lessons, he can point out from time to time if there is something wrong with my stroke.

Actually what he told me (along with what another person advised) is working like magic (when I remember to do it).

Just holding my elbow closer to my body so my arm is straight up and down, then pausing before my final stroke. (Of course I'm already doing a lot of other things - practice strokes, staying down after shooting, etc.)

pooltchr
06-07-2006, 07:51 PM
BB,
You argued against the advice to seek a good instructor quite some time ago, saying you did better if you learned by yourself. Now you have someone who you say is an instructor telling you to use mirrors and straighten out your stroke on your own.

Do yourself a big favor. Call RandyG or Scott Lee and spend 3 days with one of them when they are in your part of the country. I assure you, you will get some very good instruction (more than you can even imagine), and you won't be told to get mirrors and work it out yourself.
Steve

DickLeonard
06-08-2006, 05:22 AM
BillyBob I always tell people to stroke down the middle line in their kitchen table or dining room table. You will see where your stroke is off in 10 minutes. Curing it will take longer.

When I was playing all the time and I wanted to change something in my game. I wouldn't play anyone for at least 2 weeks for the correction to be permanent. Otherwise you'll will revert back to your old self. When you start missing with your new style, you throw it out and go back to your old style.

Remember it is like building a house, a strong foundation,
then a strong frame etc. It all can't be done in day.####

Eric.
06-08-2006, 07:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote DickLeonard:</font><hr> When I was playing all the time and I wanted to change something in my game. I wouldn't play anyone for at least 2 weeks for the correction to be permanent. Otherwise you'll will revert back to your old self. When you start missing with your new style, you throw it out and go back to your old style.
<hr /></blockquote>

I hope people realize how huge this piece of advice about reverting under pressure is. Thanks, Dick.


Eric

Rod
06-08-2006, 12:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>

So maybe some or all of the above will get me to break some bad habits? (Basically I need to hold my elbow closer to my body so my arm is straight up and down rather than at an angle. And pause before my final stroke. And doing this is showing good results...[when I remember to do it that is...])
<hr /></blockquote>

Well, - good luck with your plan. Do you really think you, and you friend, will know everything to look for after a lesson? You may grasp a basic concept but it's going be very limited.

Regarding your arm/elbow, you don't have to hold it anywhere, it hangs naturally. I see players in all sorts of contorted positions. It's this forced stuff that get people in trouble. If you slowly "finish" your backswing, rather than a "clean and jerk" you'll have a built in slight pause. Let it flow with natural movements, you might start looking like a pool player.

BTW, a pause you really need is at the c/b. That's the final set up for line of aim and exact cue tip placement. During this pause, internally, being mostly mental, your still moving, your clock is ticking. When my clock strikes the hour I slowly push on the gas pedal. However players short on rhythm slam the throttle through the floor board.

Rod

sofy60
06-10-2006, 02:55 PM
I dont like your approach of having your friend examine your stroke and you examine his. If you both have bad strokes and you both dont know what a good one looks like then your wasting your time and getting bad feedback.
mirrors arent going to help as your head needs to be down. not looking into a mirror which would be a whole different wrong position to be in.

Think of your pool cue as a poker. all it does is poke. your hand that goes on the butt of your cue needs to act as a perfect pendulum .. a nice straight poke by swinging your elbow only. No wrist no shoulder just a dangling forearm dangling straight down at the ground and perpindicular to it. Your bridge hand should be nothing more than a dead bridge . no movement. no wiggles. no altercations during your stroke. Sit at home and hit poker chips on your dining room table if needed. swing that cue 200 times a day and you in short time will have a natural and smooth and comfortable stroke. remember to dangle the arm. Avoid sidearm or angled dangle. straight up and down and the little white ball will go whichever direction you choose to poke it.

sofy60
06-10-2006, 02:56 PM
If you dont tense up your shoulder gravity itself will provide a perfect dangling forearm for you to rock the cue back and forth.

Billy_Bob
06-11-2006, 08:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> I dont like your approach of having your friend examine your stroke and you examine his. If you both have bad strokes and you both dont know what a good one looks like then your wasting your time and getting bad feedback...<hr /></blockquote>

FYI one person I play pool with is a master pool player. He has been giving me feedback for years. When I miss a shot, he tells me what I did wrong. (He does not give me too much advice since we play in the same money tournaments and he would be shooting himself in the foot to do so...)

And there are a couple of "A" players I play with. These guys will give me feedback about what I am doing as well.

Also I have received "expert" advice as to what I need to work on for my stroke.

The thing is, when I am shooting, I am concentrating on my shot. I can't see myself. So I need to rely on others watching me to tell me what I did if I did something wrong.

I told the instructor I went to that working on my stroke was my main priority. I said I was willing to come back again and again until it was solid. He said it would be a waste of my money to do this. Said I could take regular lessons and he would point out problems with my stroke as we went along. But that I need to work on it myself basically. I do plan to take lessons as he suggested.

The idea for the mirrors is my idea and the idea of taking lessons with my friend is my idea too.

I have no idea if my friend has a "good" stoke or not and I don't tell him what to do because I am not an expert. He does not tell me what to do either. Actually he is quite good at staying down on his shots. I do tell him he looks just like the pros on TV sometimes when he is shooting. And he does.

But if we both go to an expert and get advice as to what we should be working on, then I can give him feedback on if he is doing what he should or not and he can do the same for me.

FYI I have been working on my stroke by myself and things are certainly improving! I almost had a break and run on *my* pool table last night. I have extremely tight pockets, (quadruple shimmed 3 3/4 inch pockets) so it takes extreme precision to pocket balls. The last ball I shot before the 8 hung up in the pocket and I had perfect shape on the 8. I was ticked because *no one* has ever had a break and run on my table! (I have many times on regular tables.)

Anyway my new stroke is allowing me to be more precise in my shooting. So I feel I am on the right track...

Scott Lee
06-11-2006, 09:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr>
FYI one person I play pool with is a master pool player. He has been giving me feedback for years. When I miss a shot, he tells me what I did wrong. (He does not give me too much advice since we play in the same money tournaments and he would be shooting himself in the foot to do so...)
<hr /></blockquote>

This is a ridiculous statement. You are not even a faint shadow of a master-level player. Your "friend" could advise you all day long, and you would rarely beat him, especially under pressure in money games or tournaments.
If he chooses not to share certain info with you, it is certainly not because he's scared you might beat him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott Lee

Billy_Bob
06-11-2006, 09:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
This is a ridiculous statement. You are not even a faint shadow of a master-level player. Your "friend" could advise you all day long, and you would rarely beat him, especially under pressure in money games or tournaments.
If he chooses not to share certain info with you, it is certainly not because he's scared you might beat him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Perhaps I have beat him in tournaments before?

pooltchr
06-11-2006, 06:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>
This is a ridiculous statement. You are not even a faint shadow of a master-level player. Your "friend" could advise you all day long, and you would rarely beat him, especially under pressure in money games or tournaments.
If he chooses not to share certain info with you, it is certainly not because he's scared you might beat him! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
<hr /></blockquote>

Perhaps I have beat him in tournaments before?
<hr /></blockquote>

By your own admission, a year ago you were pretty much a ball banger. Now a year later, relying only on what you have taught yourself, and what you have read, you are beating "Master level players" in tournaments. If that were true, I would be impressed. I suspect if you actually came up against a true "Master" player, you might find out just how good some players can be.

If I am wrong, you need to run out this weekend and enter the closest IPT qualifier you can, and start playing professionally. All you need to do is win a small tournament of maybe a dozen players to get into the biggest money tour ever.
Steve

Billy_Bob
06-12-2006, 08:44 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> By your own admission, a year ago you were pretty much a ball banger. Now a year later, relying only on what you have taught yourself, and what you have read, you are beating "Master level players" in tournaments...<hr /></blockquote>

Well first I am constantly improving - changing - learning. So don't go by how I was playing a year ago.

A year ago I was not very good at leaving the cue ball where I wanted to. I have been working on this specifically for about a year and can now sometimes leave perfect position for an entire run of 8-ball. This is more difficult for 9-ball, but it sure makes a big difference in being able to run more balls. And again this is on 7 ft. bar tables, I rarely play on larger tables.

So far as winning against the master player, I have been trying to beat this guy for years, and have not been able to win against him once. Actually I was in a race to one 8-ball tournament with him. He got me the first time around and sent me to the losers bracket. Then I worked my way up and played him again for 1st and 2nd place.

It took a lot of work and a do or die shot, but I won the first game. (Had to win twice to get 1st.) This was the first time I ever won against this guy and I was quite happy to say the least! I thought he would get even with me in the second game, but I think he made an error or scratched. Anyway I got lucky and ran out on him.

So I won the first game and he "lost" the second. But usually I can't win against this guy - ever.

And I have difficulty winning against "A" players. I'm winning sometimes against them more frequently now though.

So in summary, in the past I *never* won against these guys. Recently I have on rare occasions, it is getting to be possible for me to win sometimes when playing these guys, BUT I can't regularly win against them.

I expect in the future I will win more and more games as time goes forward and I keep working on my game.

Of course I will keep trying to improve. And that is why I am on this and other forums, to learn and improve my playing. And the subject I would rather be talking about BTW.

So it would be silly for me to enter an IPT qualifier. For one thing, I don't have much of any time on 9 ft. tables. If I can get a lot of time on 9 ft. tables and improve my game a whole lot more, then I might enter an IPT "pre-qualifier", however I think I would be lucky to win one match.

FYI - In the future I would prefer to stick to the subject of my posts. The subject of this post is working on improving my stroke and if mirrors, friends, video cameras, or whatever will help to that end.

Eric.
06-12-2006, 09:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Billy_Bob:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> By your own admission, a year ago you were pretty much a ball banger. Now a year later, relying only on what you have taught yourself, and what you have read, you are beating "Master level players" in tournaments...<hr /></blockquote>

Well first I am constantly improving - changing - learning. So don't go by how I was playing a year ago.

<font color="blue">All people are saying is that , that much improvement in 1 year borders on total BS </font color>

A year ago I was not very good at leaving the cue ball where I wanted to. I have been working on this specifically for about a year and can now sometimes leave perfect position for an entire run of 8-ball. This is more difficult for 9-ball, but it sure makes a big difference in being able to run more balls. And again this is on 7 ft. bar tables, I rarely play on larger tables.

<font color="blue">See above. </font color>

So far as winning against the master player, I have been trying to beat this guy for years, and have not been able to win against him once. Actually I was in a race to one 8-ball tournament with him.

<font color="blue"> That explains it. Race to 1 is not exactly a real good test of skill </font color>

He got me the first time around and sent me to the losers bracket. Then I worked my way up and played him again for 1st and 2nd place.

It took a lot of work and a do or die shot, but I won the first game. (Had to win twice to get 1st.) This was the first time I ever won against this guy and I was quite happy to say the least! I thought he would get even with me in the second game, but I think he made an error or scratched. Anyway I got lucky and ran out on him.

<font color="blue">That's what you needed to do, nice shooting. </font color>

So I won the first game and he "lost" the second. But usually I can't win against this guy - ever.

And I have difficulty winning against "A" players. I'm winning sometimes against them more frequently now though.

<font color="blue">Again, I wonder if you know what an "A" player plays like. Bsmutz is probably an "A" player and you couldn't win one game off him! </font color>

So in summary, in the past I *never* won against these guys. Recently I have on rare occasions, it is getting to be possible for me to win sometimes when playing these guys, BUT I can't regularly win against them.

<font color="blue"> Personally, I wouldn't use a one or two game win for a judge of skill level or for that matter, don't consider a race to 1 tourney, much of a tourney. </font color>

I expect in the future I will win more and more games as time goes forward and I keep working on my game.

<font color="blue">I hope you do. Sincerely. </font color>

Of course I will keep trying to improve. And that is why I am on this and other forums, to learn and improve my playing. And the subject I would rather be talking about BTW.

<font color="blue">Everyone would love to see you improve. That's what we are all striving to do. Then again, *a lot* of us could do without the dubious boasts. </font color>

So it would be silly for me to enter an IPT qualifier. For one thing, I don't have much of any time on 9 ft. tables. If I can get a lot of time on 9 ft. tables and improve my game a whole lot more, then I might enter an IPT "pre-qualifier", however I think I would be lucky to win one match.

<font color="blue"> More like lucky to win one GAME. </font color>

FYI - In the future I would prefer to stick to the subject of my posts. The subject of this post is working on improving my stroke and if mirrors, friends, video cameras, or whatever will help to that end.

<font color="blue">You'll get more flies with honey... Maybe you should pass the Bong around sometimes...BTW BB, you were the one who brought up the sotry of the master player into the discussion /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif </font color>

<hr /></blockquote>


Eric

sofy60
06-12-2006, 06:09 PM
with all these master players at your disposal why are you asking possibly worse players advice. I figured you for kukoo from your first post . Now your slipping into super koo koo
Big money tournaments ? when ? where ? and if you actually were playing in big money tournaments youd think you would have a little confidence in Your stroke. Which mind you have been doing for years and years.
How do you know your stroke is good.. heres a test.
setup a long shot dead straight from corner to corner . about 8 feet apart. Cue and object ball about 1.5 feet from corner pockets. Hit it ten times and draw it back to the cues initial position. When you can make the object ball 9 out of 10 and draw it all the way back 9 out of 10 Id say your stroke is doing pretty darn good.
If its 4 out of 10 then Id say you dont stink too bad.
Its a tough shot . Long and with a 7 foot draw afterwards mandatory.
Then offset the angle just a hair and put top spin on the ball and crush it. Try to get all the way back down the table using top. When you can crush the cue ball and keep control your stroke is dead on charlie.
When you can hit 9 of 10 on these two excercises then move on to something else and be assured your a damm good pool player.

caedos
06-13-2006, 05:42 AM
You have a rare gift for improvement if you have gone from less than "A" level play to Master level play in about a year. I'm a well rounded 'A' player in the Masters division of Dallas. Six years ago I was a mid to upper level 'B' player. Since then I have worked very hard to improve my game with some of the best instruction and coaching from more than a few Master to pro players, many instructors, and several classes and schools. I applaud your desire to use a friend. I would suggest using a friend and both going to some process training (not game or shot coaching) together so that you are both on the same page with language and tools. I like the use of mirrors: a profile is a good way to see your stroke mechanics. You can also shoot shots straight towards a mirror to see if your delivery is in-line. And for the sake of credibility on this board, get out and play some Masters away from your home room and let us know how you stack up in longer races and what organization has deemed those players to be Master players.

Good luck,


Carl

Eric.
06-14-2006, 08:52 AM
6

bsmutz
06-14-2006, 11:42 AM
"Again, I wonder if you know what an "A" player plays like. Bsmutz is probably an "A" player and you couldn't win one game off him!"

Eric,
This isn't true. BB actually beat me 3 times at snooker. He is very consistent at straight to the pocket shots and leaving himself well. He needs to work on banks and kicks to help round out his game. You have to remember that we played snooker and one pocket the first time he came up. It was a new place, new person, bigger tables than he was used to, and games that he had never played before. I don't think I would have done very well in those circumstances either. I've beaten up on a couple of people that played equal to or better than myself at one pocket because they had never played it before. It takes a few games just to figure out the general strategy and then make adjustments to things like safeties and such that may work in other games but don't work that well in one pocket. Snooker is the same way. At first it is almost totally foreign. Shots that you are used to making on a pool table won't go on the snooker table. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about without having to go into further detail. Bottom line is that BB is not a bad player. If you have been reading his posts, you should be able to tell that he is about as into the game as anyone can get. I think I could beat him at 8-ball, but it wouldn't be easy and I'm sure he would win his share of games. I don't think he (or anyone else that posts here) deserves all the personal digs. I don't think you would like it if someone attacked your posts all the time. I'm pretty sure that if someone were boasting or giving bad advice all the time on here that we would all let them know. While BBs posts are outside the norm of what we usually see on here, they do provoke thought and discussion which is more than a lot of posts do. What I don't want to see happen is people going and posting on some other site because they get attacked here (unless they really deserve it like FL or TW). Let's try to keep it friendly, okay? Thanks...
Bill

Eric.
06-14-2006, 01:12 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr>I'm pretty sure that if someone were boasting or giving bad advice all the time on here that we would all let them know. While BBs posts are outside the norm of what we usually see on here, they do provoke thought and discussion which is more than a lot of posts do. <hr /></blockquote>


Bill,

If you read this very thread, that's what several people are trying to do; question what seems like some(among others) questionable boasting.

I suppose we'll have to remain on the opposite side of the table on this issue. While I don't see anyone being nasty to him, I don't see certain things that sound outrageous being questioned, that out of line.

For the record, I do appreciate some of B_B's certain thought provoking posts (without the excess fluff) too.


Eric

wolfdancer
06-14-2006, 03:09 PM
Scott, didn't you tell me that mirrors might help my game, as long as I also added smoke?

Steve - Detroit
06-14-2006, 06:23 PM
Keep posting B_B, I always enjoy your posts. Just look at the responses, Scott, Steve, ####, Rod, Carl, most of what I'd consider the cream of the crop as far as teaching posters is concerned. Many of us learn from these posters due to the questions you ask.

DickLeonard
06-15-2006, 06:00 AM
Steve-Detroit, Chas1022 asked me a question about how I practiced and I took maybe a half hour going in length to answer his post and when I went to send it The Board had shut down for maintence. So I directed him to review my posts stored in the Archives. The posters on the board have diminished but if you wanted to research old posts there is a wealth of info under ####Leonard and DickLeonard. Just stay on the Chalk Board posts. I am a left wing radical.

Most of the old posts have many of the great posters that have visited the Board.
FRan Crimi,George Fels now 071838,RanyG,Chris Cass,Pooltchr,Dr Dave.Rod[ the champion poster of all time]Bob Jewett his posts lead you to wealth of stored knowledge ,less I forget Dr.Dave will also direct you to a wealth of pool knowledge,BlackJack Dave Sapolis.

If I have left anyone out please forgive me.####

DickLeonard
06-16-2006, 06:08 AM
Dick how could you have left out Hal Houle the Aiming Guru.####