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coolluke
06-09-2006, 12:29 PM
I am unsure as to how a soft tip acts on a cue ball versus a hard tip, or does it vary by manufacturer. I would think that it would be easier to misscue with a hard tip, so what would be the advantage of a hard tip. Please clear this up if possible.

Scott Lee
06-09-2006, 12:56 PM
All tips are hard by feel. Until you have a decent stroke, it won't really matter what tip you use, as far as hardness goes...and many players can't tell any real difference. I'd start with Lepro's and try them out for awhile. They are cheap, and work well.

Scott Lee

Jal
06-09-2006, 03:20 PM
I tend to agree that a soft tip is less likely to miscue, but there are counter-arguments. The one sure advantage of a hard tip is that it holds its shape much better. Thus, less maintenance is required.

Jim

Billy_Bob
06-10-2006, 10:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote coolluke:</font><hr> I am unsure as to how a soft tip acts on a cue ball versus a hard tip...<hr /></blockquote>

The best lesson you can ever get is to buy a cheap cue and install various tips on it, then try them out. Very soft is elk master - very very hard is phenolic. Try leather, pig skin, etc.

I prefer a Moori Q (hard) tip because it keeps its shape longer and in my opinion grips the ball better than other tips.

But on jump cue &gt; phenolic
Breaking cue &gt; Tiger jump/break tip
Masse' cue &gt; Triangle Medium tip

BurloakB
06-15-2006, 06:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote coolluke:</font><hr> I am unsure as to how a soft tip acts on a cue ball versus a hard tip, or does it vary by manufacturer. I would think that it would be easier to misscue with a hard tip, so what would be the advantage of a hard tip. Please clear this up if possible. <hr /></blockquote>
I feel the miscue problem usually has more to do with stroke flaws or poor chalking and tip maintenance habits than tip hardness. But that's just this person's opinion.

In my experience, softer tips will absorb the cue ball a little more and soften the response of the hit. When applying several tips of side-spin there is more tip surface contacing the CB. This generally translates to more spin than a harder tip will generate for the exact same effort. This will be contested, but it's fact. Try a masse with a soft tip, then a hard tip and this will be very clear. Softer tips do require more maintenance as mentioned above, but that's a price you have to be willing to pay.

Harder tips do not absorb the cue ball as much but provide a more responsive hit. I used to play with super hard tips and loved the hit, however I didn't like the way the tips applied english. I went to a med-hard tip and started generating far more spin.

Tip height &amp; shape are equally important, though I won't really get into that except to say this.

A tall hard tip will play softer than a short hard tip.

A short soft tip will play harder than a tall soft tip.

You can change the tips playing characteristics by how tall you leave it and how you shape it.

Cornerman
06-16-2006, 05:40 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> . When applying several tips of side-spin there is more tip surface contacing the CB. This generally translates to more spin than a harder tip will generate for the exact same effort. This will be contested, but it's fact. <hr /></blockquote>Obviously when you state it like that, it should be contested. But, I won't contest it because it's been disproven too many times.

Fred

Scott Lee
06-16-2006, 11:14 AM
I agree with Fred. The size of the contact point between the tip and CB is appx. 1/8", or the size of the red circle on a red circle CB...regardless of tip hardness.

Scott Lee

bsmutz
06-16-2006, 02:11 PM
Now wait a minute. Are you saying that if I stuck a piece of sponge about 1" in diameter on the end of my cue stick, dipped it in ink, and hit the cue ball with it, that the contact area would only be 1/8" in diameter? I'll take that bet.
I've often wondered how much experimentation has been done with various materials and diameters. It seems like an epoxy resin or a hard durometer rubber might make a good cue tip. Sometimes those snooker players look like they have a big wad of gum stuck on the end of their cue. Imagine how much spin you could get with a wad of Juicy Fruit on there. (Of course, you'd have to clean the cue ball after every shot but you could get plenty of draw just by pulling your stick back, then detaching the cue ball.)

BurloakB
06-16-2006, 02:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I agree with Fred. The size of the contact point between the tip and CB is appx. 1/8", or the size of the red circle on a red circle CB...regardless of tip hardness.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
Fair enough, I'm willing to admit that I am most likely misinformed about the contact area being larger. I was only speaking from personal experience and my interpretation of what was really happening.

Anyway, the original post was about miscues, and I still maintain it has nothing to do with tip hardness.

I'd love to know the real reason softer tips generate more spin than harder tips given the same cueing line, stroke speed, follow through an tip shape.

Bob_Jewett
06-16-2006, 02:52 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr>... I'd love to know the real reason softer tips generate more spin than harder tips given the same cueing line, stroke speed, follow through an tip shape.
<hr /></blockquote>
I know that this is the feeling of many people, but do you have a demonstration of it?

One issue is which harness of tip will allow the farther-from-center hit. Some believe that a soft tip takes chalk better so it can hit the ball farther from center.

There is a counter theory, and that is because a softer tip will have a longer contact time than a hard tip. During contact, the tip rides around the side of the ball some, so the final eccentricity as the tip leaves the ball is larger than when the tip first hits the ball. A softer tip, with the longer contact time will be farther off center at the end than a harder tip with the same starting offset. If both tips can only hold to a certain point of offset, and you start your shot so the miscue point is barely reached at the end of contact, the average offset will be larger for the harder tip. This means that the harder tip can create more spin for a given ball speed.

Which dominates? Holding chalk better or starting farther off-center? I don't know of any experiment that has tested this.

Scott Lee
06-16-2006, 05:31 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Now wait a minute. Are you saying that if I stuck a piece of sponge about 1" in diameter on the end of my cue stick, dipped it in ink, and hit the cue ball with it, that the contact area would only be 1/8" in diameter? I'll take that bet.
<hr /></blockquote>

Bill...NO BET! LMAO However, with any standard LEATHER cuetip, I'll take the bet! I know you're kidding, 'cause I already showed this to you a year and a half ago! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

cushioncrawler
06-16-2006, 05:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> Now wait a minute. Are you saying that if I stuck a piece of sponge about 1" in diameter on the end of my cue stick, dipped it in ink, and hit the cue ball with it, that the contact area would only be 1/8" in diameter? I'll take that bet.
I've often wondered how much experimentation has been done with various materials and diameters. It seems like an epoxy resin or a hard durometer rubber might make a good cue tip. Sometimes those snooker players look like they have a big wad of gum stuck on the end of their cue. Imagine how much spin you could get with a wad of Juicy Fruit on there. (Of course, you'd have to clean the cue ball after every shot but you could get plenty of draw just by pulling your stick back, then detaching the cue ball.) <hr /></blockquote>

A few years ago i read that many top snooker players were beginning to use an overhanging (ie oversized) tip -- hence the wad of gum look. The tip is say 1mm oversize -- the brass ferrule iz bevelled at perhaps 30dg, ie it iz not flat across the top. Somehow, i dont remember how, the tip iz clamped or pre-viced or something, so that it sits nicely on the bevelled ferrule -- this gives the tip a slightly rounder radius across the top than when it woz in the box. At the same time, the sides of the tip will lean out -- but the tipsmith then haz to do a little more work with hiz/her knife or lathe to trim the sides such that they meet the ferrule, ie when finished the sides lean even more-so.

I guess that the benefits are.... (1) the overhang givz an eezyr etc screwing action.... (2) a small radius across the top of the tip can be achieved without loozing any leather, hence the tip-life iz increased, ie the depth of leather at the sides iz greater than normal.... (3) the radius across the top of the finished tip iz actually much flatter than uzual (it appearz to me), hence plain center-ball hitting iz more forgiving (for error) than what u got with the older-style smaller tips.

I have tried (home-made) rubber tips -- they are good for masse's -- dont uze chalk -- white rubber iz best, black often leaves a mark on the ball. But u are correct re needing hard rubber for harder screw shots -- koz ordinary rubber just failz and skidz most of the time -- too weak in shear i guess. Rubber would be ok in the rules for english billiardz (i think), but iznt allowed in pool (i think).

Scott Lee
06-16-2006, 09:54 PM
Actually, they manufactured "rubber" tips for awhile, about 15 yrs. ago. Called Future Tips, a guy in WA state was making them. I still have a few. The hit was good, but I could never get them to stay glued on. You're right about not needing as much chalk (sometimes none). Anybody else remember these tips?

Scott Lee

BurloakB
06-16-2006, 10:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I know that this is the feeling of many people, but do you have a demonstration of it?<hr /></blockquote>
High speed video of soft through to super hard tips applying english. The offset increases with each hit, and there are video for both slow and fast hits. As I'm sure you are well aware, the reference site can be found here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html).

English with Soft tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-98.htm)
English with Soft tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-99.htm)

English with Medium tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-100.htm)
English with Medium tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-101.htm)

English with Hard tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-102.htm)
English with Hard tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-103.htm)

English with Super-hard tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-104.htm)
English with Super-hard tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-105.htm)

People will see what they want to see I guess, but when I compare the fast speed video of the soft tip compared to the hard tip, it appears the soft tip applies more english. That's just the way I see it.

I feel that I get more english using a softer tip than a harder tip. Now maybe this is just placebo effect and a matter of personal confidence, but it's real to my experience.

I do know the greater the offset of the side-spin, the more spin will be produced. If using a softer tip means I can safely go out further on the cue ball without having to worry about miscuing, then that added confidence is worth a lot to me.

Maybe it should be said that a lot of miscues occur when a player treads too close to the outer edge of the cue ball for their own good?.

BurloakB
06-16-2006, 11:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr> I agree with Fred. The size of the contact point between the tip and CB is appx. 1/8", or the size of the red circle on a red circle CB...regardless of tip hardness.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
Scott, do you want to re-think that statement?.

Close-up of Soft tip centerball hit on cue ball (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-77.htm)
Close-up of Medium tip centerball hit on cue ball (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-78.htm)
Close-up of Hard tip centerball hit on cue ball (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-79.htm)
Close-up of Super-Hard tip centerball hit on cue ball (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-80.htm)

It's obvious that not only does the size of the contact area change depending on tip hardness, but also the amount of time the tip is in contact with the cueball.

I retract my earlier statement, the contact area is bigger for softer tips than their harder counterparts.

Cornerman
06-17-2006, 05:00 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr>
I do know the greater the offset of the side-spin, the more spin will be produced. If using a softer tip means I can safely go out further on the cue ball without having to worry about miscuing, then that added confidence is worth a lot to me. <hr /></blockquote>If this is your criteria, then a re-read of Bob Jewett's post is in order. You'll see that a harder tip is better suited to your particular statement.

Fred

BurloakB
06-17-2006, 10:47 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr>
I do know the greater the offset of the side-spin, the more spin will be produced. If using a softer tip means I can safely go out further on the cue ball without having to worry about miscuing, then that added confidence is worth a lot to me. <hr /></blockquote>If this is your criteria, then a re-read of Bob Jewett's post is in order. You'll see that a harder tip is better suited to your particular statement.

Fred <hr /></blockquote>
I understood Bob's post the first reading but it's just not been my personal experience. Some people feel less confidence when using one tip over another, I prefer a medium hard tip. It boils down to personal confidence, that's why I used the phrase "I feel" because it's just my personal opinion. Granted, it may not be scientifically accurate, but it's more important to my experience than fact.

If we really want to split hairs let's consider the following. The high speed video I included above was performed by a pro player who may prefer using a hard tip. This could bias the test results for the softer tip as this player might not have any confidence using tips like that. Something to consider.

I think my statement, "Maybe it should be said that a lot of miscues occur when a player treads too close to the outer edge of the cue ball for their own good?." is more important than anything else I've written as this is the true underlying reason for miscues. Since the original poster was inquiring about miscues and not which tip applies more spin, this is where our attention should be focused anyway.

Whatever the maximum off-set is for a given tip hardness, whatever the tip radius is, whatever your chalking habits are, a player must stay within the limitations of all these variables or risk a miscue. Going too low or too far to the edge on the cue ball with any tip will result in a miscue. So it can be safely said that the cue tip is not responsible for a miscue, but rather human error. If I were to use a phenolic tipon my playing cue and wanted to apply side-spin, I'd better stay close to the vertical axis or face the consequences.

Let me just say in conclusion that everything I have said above has just been my personal experience. Everything varies from player to player, let's just leave it at that. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Jal
06-17-2006, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr>...It's obvious that not only does the size of the contact area change depending on tip hardness, but also the amount of time the tip is in contact with the cueball...<hr /></blockquote>I think the videos support these conclusions. On the face of it then, it might seem like the softer tip should be able to handle larger offsets without slipping. For one, given the same amount of resulting cueball speed, the average force between the tip and cueball is less. This means less tangential (shearing) force.

For another, the force is spread over a larger contact area, meaning even less shear.

But the problem is that the normal force which presses the surfaces together is also reduced accordingly. What matters is the coefficient of friction. The minimum value for it in order to escape a miscue at different tip offsets is worked out here:

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/technical_proofs/TP_2-1.pdf

It's not obvious that softer tips make for higher values. When I first switched to a harder one I experienced more miscueing. But exactly why, I don't know. Maybe it played havoc with my stroke. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Jim

kdd9
06-20-2006, 01:45 AM
Hi folks. I don't mean to mock the thread in any way; I find it very interesting. But while reading it I couldn't help thinking of something that I saw on another website a while ago. The author of the site is an engineer by profession and seems to have a good sense of humor as well. Here is a rather odd experiment of his if you care to check it out:

A Very Strange Cue Tip (http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/billiards.htm#super%20tip)

I find the whole site interesting myself; not just the billiard section. Hope you like it too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BTW, it's Water Buffalo extra hard tips for my cue. I switched to them about a year ago and I'll never go back. I just think they suit my own style of play the best. I'm talking overall play in which english is only one part of. And I haven't noticed any more miscues with them for all the action I get as long as I keep them well-chalked. I like that I can just swing the cue with a loose grip and "let it hit" the cue ball and get good consistent control by adjusting the speed of the swing. I think it is because the impact is not absorbed by the hard tip as much as it is with a softer tip.
But then, I'm not an engineer either -- just a pool player. /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

coolluke
06-20-2006, 06:22 AM
I have been to waynesthisandthat.com a while ago and found it very interesting. I'm wondering how he has any time for playing pool with so much effort devoted to engineering projects related to pool.

dr_dave
06-26-2006, 10:05 AM
BurloakB,

Sorry I missed out on this discussion. I was out of town and unreachable the last week. I did the "Ride the Rockies" 6-day, 420-mile bike ride through southern Colorado. It was great fun; although, my butt hurts a little.

Concerning the clips you site in your post below, I analyzed all of them and described the conclusions here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=201674&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1). Some of the results are also described and illustrated in my October '05 article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/oct05.pdf).

Here are some of the conclusions pertinent to the discussion here:

- tip hardness, shaft type, or speed does not appear to have much (if any) effect on the amount of spin generated for different offsets.

- large offsets and spin rate factors are possible with a hard (but not too hard [i.e., phenolic]), well-chalked tip.

Results concerning tip contact times can be found here (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=201666&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1).

My study wasn't as exhaustive and well controlled as I would have liked, but I think it was sufficient to support my conclusions.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> I know that this is the feeling of many people, but do you have a demonstration of it?<hr /></blockquote>
High speed video of soft through to super hard tips applying english. The offset increases with each hit, and there are video for both slow and fast hits. As I'm sure you are well aware, the reference site can be found here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/index.html).

English with Soft tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-98.htm)
English with Soft tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-99.htm)

English with Medium tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-100.htm)
English with Medium tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-101.htm)

English with Hard tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-102.htm)
English with Hard tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-103.htm)

English with Super-hard tip at slow speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-104.htm)
English with Super-hard tip at fast speed (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/high_speed_videos/new/HSVA-105.htm)

People will see what they want to see I guess, but when I compare the fast speed video of the soft tip compared to the hard tip, it appears the soft tip applies more english. That's just the way I see it.

I feel that I get more english using a softer tip than a harder tip. Now maybe this is just placebo effect and a matter of personal confidence, but it's real to my experience.

I do know the greater the offset of the side-spin, the more spin will be produced. If using a softer tip means I can safely go out further on the cue ball without having to worry about miscuing, then that added confidence is worth a lot to me.

Maybe it should be said that a lot of miscues occur when a player treads too close to the outer edge of the cue ball for their own good?. <hr /></blockquote>