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Deeman3
06-15-2006, 08:28 AM
WASHINGTON - President Bush on Thursday is expected to announce the creation of the world's largest marine protected area — a group of remote Hawaiian islands that cover 84 million acres and are home to 7,000 species of birds, fish and marine mammals, at least a quarter of which are unique to Hawaii.

At a White House ceremony, the president was planning to designate the Northwestern Hawaiian Islands — which have been described as "America's Galapagos" and as the most intact tropical marine region under U.S. jurisdiction — the United States' 75th national monument.

The decision immediately sets aside 139,000 square miles of largely uninhabited islands, atolls, coral reef colonies and underwater peaks known as seamounts to be managed by federal and state agencies.

Conrad Lautenbacher, head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, which will manage nearly all of it, said the new protected area would dwarf all others.

"It's the single-largest act of ocean conservation in history. It's a large milestone," Lautenbacher said. "It is a place to maintain biodiversity and to maintain basically the nurseries of the Pacific. It spawns a lot of the life that permeates the middle of the Pacific Ocean."

Conservationists, who have clashed with the Bush administration on most other environmental issues, were just as pleased.

"This an unprecedented win for endangered Hawaiian monk seals, green sea turtles, black-footed albatrosses, tiger sharks, the incredible reef corals in these waters, the people of Hawaii and all Americans, now and in generations to come," Elliott Norse, president of the Marine Conservation Biology Institute, said in a statement ahead of the announcement. "It’s the start of a new era of protecting places in the sea before they’re degraded beyond recognition. In my opinion, this is the best thing President Bush has done for the environment."

Added Fred Krupp, head of Environmental Defense: "The president is creating the world's largest marine protected area. It's as important as the establishment of Yellowstone" — arguably the crown jewel of the National Park System.

The national monument, about the size of California, will be 38 times larger than Yellowstone, and larger even than Australia's Great Barrier Reef Marine Park.

Roger Rufe, president of The Ocean Conservancy, agreed the area was on par with Yellowstone and the Grand Canyon. "Teddy Roosevelt is largely considered the father of our national park system," he added. With this national monument, "President Bush may be securing a similar legacy in our oceans.”

Drop1
06-15-2006, 08:53 AM
Will it have a Starbucks?

Deeman3
06-15-2006, 09:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> Will it have a Starbucks? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Of course, no self-respecting tree hugger could go five minutes without that fix. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

Deeman

nAz
06-15-2006, 09:06 AM
Kudos for Bush! let me be among the first to congratulate him on making a great decision... err i hope they don't discover any oil in that area /ccboard/images/graemlins/frown.gif

BTW I don't think this will change too many peoples opinion on his dismal past environmental record for example "The Clear Skies initiative" what a huge mistake that will turn out to be.

wolfdancer
06-15-2006, 09:16 AM
George Walker Bush..Teddy Roosevelt...kind of rolls off the tongue
Just think...future students researching environmantalists...will find George on the same page as John Muir.
I applaud the move by Mr. B....but can't help thinking....must not be any oil down there

wolfdancer
06-15-2006, 09:20 AM
I think the key words here are remote/Hawaiian/Islands.
Sorry, but I could envision GWB authorizing oil drilling in Lake Tahoe...

moblsv
06-15-2006, 01:40 PM
This is a good thing. Bush followed through on what Clinton started, good for him.

Now for the Bush Bashing: Washington is still for sale, the only reason this was able to go through is because nobody had enough financial interest in it to buy it out.

Cueless Joey
06-15-2006, 01:53 PM
Hooorah!!!!
Now, keep his chubby twins from swimming in those water. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

DickLeonard
06-16-2006, 06:32 AM
Wolfdancer there is Oil down there it is just 13 miles down it would cost $80 a barrel just to retrieve it.####

Gayle in MD
06-20-2006, 08:46 AM
Dick,
I read somewhere that the Bush plan for drilling in Alaska would only save a penny or so on the gallon by the time we transported it. This environmental decision by bush may be the only good decision he has made throughout! Too bad he wasn't in the decision making mode when he heard about the coming attack on our country on 9/11. I thought he had a month, now I find out it was two months! I still think he is secretly working to destroy our country! His Exon friends spend millions every year so that pseudo-science organizations can create advertising to squelch all the scientific information our dior circumstances due to global warming. Never has an administration done so much to reverse human progress, or deny factual information. Their policies are based on fantasy, not reality! Anyone dumb enough to launch a war in the Middle East, has got to be the dumbest president ever!

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
06-20-2006, 09:41 AM
"I still think he is secretly working to destroy our country!"

If everyone would stand back and take an un-emotional view of this situation and the full view action of this administration, they'd see it too. This situation of the USA today is dismal, and I also feel Bush is a sell out to a global interest. If you happen to be in the wealthy category, you'll benefit. All of the middle class will suffer, some to extinction. Bush does not stand up for anyone other than big money and his friends...sid

Gayle in MD
06-20-2006, 10:14 AM
I couldn't agree more, and he uses the so called war on terror, which isn't a war on terror at all, but an Iraq civil war, as a cover up for all the laws he breaks. The whole pre-presidential plan for the war was just a plan to assure re-election, and money for the rich, both here and in his oil digs with his Arab buddies. All experts agreed for years before he went in there that doing so would be insanity, un-winnable, and lead to civil war in the Middle East. Americans are afraid to change course when our kids are dying on the battlefield, thus, their first thing on their hidden agenda was war. This war is a means to put more money in the hands of the rich, not only in this country, but in Arab countries, for his Arab buddies. Every single thing he does is a means to redistribute wealth assuring more and more dollars will fall into the hands of the rich, and more burden for his policies will fall to the poor and middle class. He refuses to address the issue of global warming, and instead assures in secret meetings with oil crooks, that he will continue to mask and suppress scientific documentation of global warming, and reward them with tax gifts. Meanwhile, they continue to gouge the hell out of the rest of us.

We can't afford to risk two and a half more years of his failed policies. Everything they tell us, is wrong. No WMD's, no connection between SH and bL, no flowers in the streets, no paying for the war with Iraq's oil, no mission accomplished, no bin Laden, no Homeland protection, no true economic progress, no true job growth, no border security, the list goes on and on. He should have nemed his educational program, EVERY child left behind. We have got to get him out of office. He's destroying us. Things are in a mess, more dangerous than ever, and all he can say is Stay the Course????? And then Kar Rove is out there saying Democrats have no policy??? Any policy is better than stay the course. What a Fing joke! They kill a handful of alQaeda, and the next thing you know they're acting like they've won the damn war. Statistics show that terrorists have been emboldened by his policies, and they're knocking each other over to sign up. Dick Cheny is still out there saying the insurgency is in it's last throes, he just said it agin this week! Iraq is so dangerous, eighty percent of the Iraqis want us to leave. Even the Iraq counsel wants a withdrawel date. Bush and company twist everything around. It is unbelievable. Never have I seen this kind of complete re-arranging of the facts!


Democrats may not be perfect, but they're our only chance to get rid of this bunch, and nothing could be worse than what we have now.
Gayle in md.



Bush is for the rich, period, at all costs, even the destruction of the world. I still think that blue bycicle helmet is the blue turban that Nostradamus said the third anti-christ would be wearing!

DickLeonard
06-20-2006, 10:25 AM
Gayle he lifted the ban on Smokestacks having to have Scrubbers on them to stop polluting the air with mercury etc. New York State took him and the EPA to court and the Court ruled in New York States favor. We have no fish in the Adirondack Lakes and Streams and that Idiot is catching Perch and calling it a memorable event. While he set back the good that was being done from Scrubbers in the Eastern States.

Conservation is Conservation in all actions not just in some remote island 4500 miles from Washington.What kind of idiots do they think we are to fall for that garbage. We can see thru his ruse.####

Deeman3
06-20-2006, 11:16 AM
Wow, it only took nine posts to turn this into a Bush is killing us all tirade. LOL, if you ever do get back even a small amount of power, you'll say, GWB made it where we can't do anything! He has the French not liking us! The UN is so upset they can't properly skim off the top anymore. The ACLU will stop defending child molesters if we don't do something.....Wah, Wah, Wah....

Let's throw some more money at welfare and schools. Let's get out of the middle east, surly the Muslins will then like us and bend to our will. Of course, we don't really need oil anymore anyway, we have wind power. Murtha will figure out how to appease the Arabs and Gore will stop global cooling, or warming or whatever nature is doing this decade. Iran will not arm themselves, and what if they do? They are certainly not going to bomb anyone, except maybe Israil and they are not popular anymore, you never hear Oprah talk about them.

Why don't you just turn this country over to the ALCU and let the UN run it? They are doing such a bang up job in the rest of the world. Democrats? You can't be serious. They can't even vote properly and apparently can't even stand up for thier rights in counting votes. If they can't even do that, you guys are going to have a hard time taking over. In addition, you can't even come up with a solid plan for withdrawing or turning tail and running in Iraq. How you gonna form a platform, by popular vote? Baw, again, you can't do elections, right?

Maybe if you just keep yelling your baseless, gossip driven critiques long enough, people will call you responsible. Remember, maybe only 40% of the American public is behind Bush but not event hat many are behind the Democrats.

You better find a party that is a little further left, the one that Hilary is describing is getting boos all over. The "flyover states" as one haint called us, are not voting on any agenda that is close to the liberal agenda displayed here. Even our democrats do not like anti-Christian rhetoric. Even they don't want more money plowed under for education (teacher unions) that is clearly beyond recovery. Even these democrats hold some values to heart that, until you understand, will still cause you to "misplace" a few million votes a year.

We have made mistakes, even beyond giving full voting shares to the "fly into" states. We can't correct that but at least we can allow you to keep burying your own party every four years. I know the republicans can't defeat the democrats this year. I'm just glad the democrats are so darn capable of beating themselves so well....

Deeman

wolfdancer
06-20-2006, 05:42 PM
Dee, you might be surprised come election time....when people that might be not that enamored with the Dems, chose to vote out the greater of two evils.
As for Gore turning back the effects of global warming, it's probably too late. It's something that should have been addressed decades ago....I don't blame this admin for creating it....just for denying it's existance, not doing anything about it, and removing safeguards already in place
Well, maybe when Manhatten becomes Venice's sister city....
The majority of Americans now feel, we should never have attacked Iraq, since it seems likely that the facts were doctored to fit GWB's agenda. It might seem like cowardice to you, but Getting us out of Iraq without a clear "victory" has precedents...We didn't exactly win in Vietnam, nor did we beat N. Korea...in fact since WWII, we've only beaten Grenada, and maybe Panama
I think you can be a liberal, a Democrat, and not buy into the excesses of the ACLU...not even sure how they got into the discussion
When you add up the number of top level resignations, and the number of indictments, and the number suspected of wrong doings.....it doesn't add up to an administration that we can be proud of.
And since the country changes party majority every so often...I wouldn't be exactly bragging about any Republican leadership being so superior to a Democratic rule.
However, if despite the way the country was tricked into the war, despite the blatent disregard that the President has for the constitution, despite the criminal activities and indictments of some top republicans, despite the resignations of the Sec. of State, the CIA Chief, the head of FEMA (and the failures of FEMA)and a Supreme Court Judge calling it quits....despite a former WH aide working against the reelection of GWB, and despite the retirements of many who found fault with the allegations that led us to this mess......despite all this, if the country counts all the votes this time, and the Democrats come up losers....then I'd brag about the sound financial planning, the superior moral values,the world leadership, etc of your party.
Christ, between Arabs overseeing our ports, and amnesty for anyone that can scale a fence, between cutting beneficial programs for Americans, while writing blank checks for Iraq, between allowing the trade deficit to grow and remain unchecked, and now increasing national debts that can never be repaid...
no party, no President has ever tried so hard to bring this country down. I can only believe his "final solution" is to impoverish the majority of our citizens, while creating a ruling elite.....
This party of criminals,...in a world court, maybe even war criminals, traitors, liars, and thieves....a party so intent on power they will trade off America piece-meal to achieve that goal....this is the party that you regard so highly?

Gayle in MD
06-21-2006, 05:36 AM
Wow, it only took nine posts to turn this into a Bush is killing us all tirade. LOL, if you ever do get back even a small amount of power, you'll say, GWB made it where we can't do anything! He has the French not liking us! The UN is so upset they can't properly skim off the top anymore. The ACLU will stop defending child molesters if we don't do something.....Wah, Wah, Wah....

Right, it doesn't take long for us to jump in when someone who calls environmentalists "Tree Huggers" and hence shows their disregard for, and ignorance of our dior circumstances with global warming, while attempting to parlay one small, and, all things considered, rather insignificant step by Bush for the environment, into Bush's taking a huge effort for our enviornment. You accuse us of unfairly bashing him all the time, but you NEVER acknowledge one single stupid mistake, or illegal activity the republicans are involved in, and slurp up all the republican meaningless, slander that passes for policy. You do the same thing that Rove is so famous for, insinuate that we are for child molesters, while ignoring the fact that the greatest organized effort to support and cover up for child molesters that has ever ocurred in this country was launched secretly, behind the scenes, by organized religion. Thousands of children were molested over many years, but that goes un-noticed by you.

Let's throw some more money at welfare and schools. I'm sure you'd much rather see the oil cartel and Halliburton get the money. Not to worry, Bush won't be throwing ANY money out for the poor, or for the education of our children. I find it amazing that you and your Christian buddies, are so completely against any financial help for the disadvantaged among us, and can't see the deceitfullness of Bush trying to cast himself as all for our kids education, while at the same time, he raises the interest on college loans, and cuts money for education. Christian Doctrine? Let's get out of the middle east, surly the Muslins will then like us and bend to our will. Of course, we don't really need oil anymore anyway, we have wind power. Murtha will figure out how to appease the Arabs and Gore will stop global cooling, or warming or whatever nature is doing this decade. Iran will not arm themselves, and what if they do? They are certainly not going to bomb anyone, except maybe Israil and they are not popular anymore, you never hear Oprah talk about them.

Iran? AH HA HA HA...hey, Bush has completely overlooked our most pressing threat, North Korea, and further, has put us in dangerous debt to the very country that supplies North Korea with all the nukes they want, while you have already been distracted by your idiot party to focuss on Iran, the republicans next effort to avoid the true and pressing threat, by pin-pointing yet another country which is of no immediate threat, as they cowardly neglect that true threat, just as they did with bin Laden.

Why don't you just turn this country over to the ALCU and let the UN run it? They are doing such a bang up job in the rest of the world. Democrats? You can't be serious. They can't even vote properly and apparently can't even stand up for thier rights in counting votes. If they can't even do that, you guys are going to have a hard time taking over. In addition, you can't even come up with a solid plan for withdrawing or turning tail and running in Iraq. How you gonna form a platform, by popular vote? Baw, again, you can't do elections, right?

Right, we'll have to learn how the transfer every vote for Democrats, into a vote for republicans by fixing the machines, the way Rove managed to pull off. You don't even care if our elections are legal, as long as your party wins, illegally, you're fine with that. Such a patriot!

Maybe if you just keep yelling your baseless, gossip driven critiques long enough, people will call you responsible. Remember, maybe only 40% of the American public is behind Bush but not event hat many are behind the Democrats.

We keep trying to tell you. There are no true statistics offered on Faux News. You, along with Ed, and the rest of your party, continue to lie about what the rest of us know, that the majority of this country, does not trust republicans to manage the war, does not want them to have majority power, and does not believe in George Bush. Do a bit of reading once in a while, and you might just learn a few things.

You better find a party that is a little further left, the one that Hilary is describing is getting boos all over. When it comes to boos, Hillary is way behind Bush! The "flyover states" as one haint called us, are not voting on any agenda that is close to the liberal agenda displayed here. Hey, thanks to Bush's anti environmental policy, we don't have to worry about you people in the fly over states anymore. You'll all either be under water, or blown away by tornados, thanks to global warming! Even our democrats do not like anti-Christian rhetoric. Even they don't want more money plowed under for education (teacher unions) that is clearly beyond recovery. BWA HA HA HA...jbeyond recovery, thanks to Bush! The studies all show that education is suffering due to lack of money for many things. As for the Unions, no surprise that you too are out to destroy Unions, the only organizations that protect the poor and middle class, while such industries as Oil and Auto, have to be FORCED to take necessary action to protect their consumers and our environment! Even these democrats hold some values to heart that, until you understand, will still cause you to "misplace" a few million votes a year. Misplaced, nice way to put it. Stolen or cancelled out is more to the point. Don't you fret about us Democrats, and our values, we aren't the ones who stand up for lies and corruption, your party has the franchise on that!

We have made mistakes, even beyond giving full voting shares to the "fly into" states. We can't correct that but at least we can allow you to keep burying your own party every four years. I know the republicans can't defeat the democrats this year. I'm just glad the democrats are so darn capable of beating themselves so well....

Deeman

Interesting, you've been on here for six years supporting anti-American activity by Bush, corruption by Republicans, pre-emptive war, torture, proven lies by Bush, Rice and Cheney, and their fixing of intel to fool Americans and the world, and have become a pro at repulican-style slander and slogans, used to skew the truth, and avoid addressing the facts, yet you refuse to answer...HOW many more troops, OUR PEOPLE, are you willing to have beheaded, limbless, and/or dead, so that Iraqis, who want amnesty for those who kill us, and 45% of whom say they think it is fine to kill Americans, can have a better life?

You, like the rest of your party, are a pro at distorting reality, and taking any important dialog, to the extremely absurd. Facts never penetrate your kool aid induced tirades!


Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
06-21-2006, 08:42 AM
You say I defend Bush's every move. I do not. Is he not doing the things I want to close out the war. No, but he's a lot closer to what I want than the democrats are with there policy of withdraw and abandon everything. I know there is both incompetence and corruption in all of government; Bush White House and Congress and the Senate as well.

I still feel better with them at the helm than any of the people your party has put forward. It may be sad that we have to pick the lesser of two evils but that's politics today.

You falsly, as usual, stated that I have never critized GWB but have on immigration and on the wild spending spree he has taken us on. We are now spending more on education than ever with pitiful results. We pay nations to tolerate us and abuse us in the UN. This is part Bush, part our history for 40~50 years. I would prefer he not give all our money to Haliburton but they will spend it more wisely than the government will.

I don't particularily deny global warming. I just don't think it is as serious as many make it out to be.

We have a basic disagreement about charity and welfare. You seem to believe the cure is to make the poor more dependent on the state for handouts. I feel everyone who is capable should work and pay taxes. You want money dumped into the school systems while I want people who have the opportunity to get an education to be supported and those who are worthless and will do nothing to be thrown out and not supported by us. This would provide ample funds for education.

It is my Christian view that we should help those less fortunate than us. However, that does not mean that I support welfare systems that breed crack whores and junkies. There is nothing in Christian doctrine that says "We need to waste money who self addicted and do not care about themselves, their families; nothing but drugs."

Maybe, just maybe, everyone does not need to go to college. Maybe we are now seeing people with degrees that don't add to their income, quality of life or job prospects. The view that everyone deserves a college education weather he/she wants one or not is not only wasteful it's silly. The attempt to give higher education to people with "D" high shcool grades and SAT in the single digits is destroying many higher education institutes in the US. Our degrees are less worth less each year on the world market.

You think I would drill a hole in your grandmother's grave for oil. I would support more competitive drilling in places we are now protecting. The fact that we risk a Sea Otter or a Snale Darter every generation is not a large risk to me. None of the other oil producers (nations)are being that averse to risk and it puts us at a competitive disadvantage. Tax the oil companies, nationize them, I don't carry that much oil stock. But let's produce more of our own, not import more. I would favor development of alternatives but the oil companies are too deep in all of congress's pocket, not just the republicans.

Bush has overlooked North Korea? It seems you kow what he should have done, more namby pamby negoiations? You have not been paying attention, the Kim Jung Il is a nut, a crazy nut.

I have noticed a proclivity among Catholics to abuse kids, many of you say that is a tradition within the Catholic Church. I wouldn't know, not being Catholic. I think they are being prosecuted and punished but that will not make it right for the ACLU to try and spring them out of jail. What is your point? You label all Christians with what a few Catholis have done? Hell my church doesn't even snake handle....yet.

What is wrong with a little vote manipulation if the target opponents are too stupid to even catch it or can't even learn how to use a voting machine properly? Should they be trusted with government if they can't even police this? I mean, your last two brilliant candidates were pretty quick to concede. Did they know somehting you didn't or did you just pick stupid candidates again?

Your saying that we in the fly over states are endangered because of Bush is not really true. It's the large cities that will be washed away frist, we know how to deal with tornadoes (we don't often whine to the goverment). So if the costal cities are washed away, then maybe the global warming will have some benefit in the end and I will be proven right. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Now in your dislusional way are blaming us for the beheadings around the world. You wouldn't dare blame the people who are actually doing the beheading, would you? That would not be liberal of you. You will critize a prisoner who didn't get his unlevened bread but blame the beheadings on your own country, what an American!

I don't want any more casualties but there will be more. This is an average ot two people a day. Lets see how that stacks up here when your party withdraws and brings the fight to America.


Deeman

nAz
06-21-2006, 11:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
I still feel better with them at the helm than any of the people your party has put forward. It may be sad that we have to pick the lesser of two evils but that's politics today.

Deeman

<hr /></blockquote>

Funny how the lesser of the two evils too me and most of the world looks like the republican and to you it looks like the Demos.

Dee in all Honesty I truly believe that Gore would have done a better Job on the economy and the war on Terror... If you could go back in time and know every thing that has happen would you still have voted for Bush over Gore?

SnakebyteXX
06-21-2006, 11:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> You say I defend Bush's every move. I do not. Is he not doing the things I want to close out the war. No, but he's a lot closer to what I want than the democrats are with there policy of withdraw and abandon everything. I know there is both incompetence and corruption in all of government; Bush White House and Congress and the Senate as well.

<font color="blue">There's a genuine connundrum here. Much like Viet Nam way back when this current war is accompanied by great controversy over whether we ever should have gotten involved in the first place. For many of those who believe strongly that the people of this country were tricked into supporting the invasion of Iraq it's clear that the war was wrong from the start. To that group it's also clear that we should end our involvement and withdraw as soon as possible.

As was the case with Viet Nam there are also many citizens and military personnel as well who feel that we should stay until the job is done. The problem with that scenario is that the 'until the job is done' part is open ended. It could take years, the lives of many more Americans lost and hundreds of billions of dollars we can ill afford to spend. At what point in time do we declare victory - pick up our marbles - and come home?

Having lived through the era when we were at war in Viet Nam I'm here to tell you that the fact that it went on and on and on for years without resolution wore everyone down eventually - including many who were originally amongst the war's most ardent supporters. What I learned from that experience was that unpopular wars like Viet Nam (and now Iraq) can be very devisive. They can end up pitting citizen against citizen, fathers against sons, brothers against brothers and in the end leave nothing to show for all the aggravation but grief and waste.

In the aftermath of that war it took many years for the wounds to heal in this country (some of them have yet to heal). There is more at stake here now than National pride - take my word for it.</font color>


I still feel better with them at the helm than any of the people your party has put forward. It may be sad that we have to pick the lesser of two evils but that's politics today.

<font color="blue">I really think we're all terribly disenchanted with our political representatives from both parties. Something has been lost as politicians have become little more than dollar whores selling out to the highest bidder. Saddly what we're lacking the most in this country from either party is LEADERSHIP. Bush is NOT a leader - that's become painfully obvious over the seemingly interminable years of his administration. Likewise, it seems that given the opportunity, time and again the Democrats can't seem to muster a viable leader of their own. Saddly, having to choose between the lesser of two evils has become the standard in America in recent years. It doesn't speak well for either of our political parties nor does it bode well for the future of our country. </font color>


I don't particularily deny global warming. I just don't think it is as serious as many make it out to be.

<font color="blue">The terrible irony of the global warming controversy is that if the alarmists are right and we do not act now in some meaningful way - our great, great, great grandchildren will be living in s.hit soup. My problem with many of those who would disavow this prospect is that for the most part they seem to have something to gain by a lack of action. Once again the prospect of pro-business entities more concerned with short term financial gain than they are with long term environmental consequences rears its ugly head.</font color>

We have a basic disagreement about charity and welfare. You seem to believe the cure is to make the poor more dependent on the state for handouts. I feel everyone who is capable should work and pay taxes.

<font color="blue">No easy answer here. I agree with you that everyone who is capable should work and pay taxes. In theory this has the ring of truth to it. But what if they're incapable because they haven't gotten the education or the job training they need? What if they really aren't capable of holding a job that pays better than minimum wage? Minimum wage is not supportable.

OTOH: You're absolutely correct about people relying on government handouts. Including the fact that government handouts work against developing a work ethic and actually punish those who try to move up and escape from welfare by immediately withdrawing financial support as soon as the recipient finds work - no matter how low paying that new job might be. </font color>

You want money dumped into the school systems while I want people who have the opportunity to get an education to be supported and those who are worthless and will do nothing to be thrown out and not supported by us. This would provide ample funds for education.

<font color="blue">Having gone through the educational system myself to the point of earning an advanced degree and having raised four children and watched as each in their own way either got or didn't get the full benefit of the current educational system (one went on to Harvard while another was expelled half way through his senior year), I can tell you that I think our current educational system is a failure.

Why? Because it fails to address the fact that not EVERY child who matriculates through primary and secondary school is headed for college. In fact the majority of them aren't. So, why aren't we addressing their needs by training them for trades that will support them after they're finished with high school? Why don't we make the chance to get an education something that you have to earn the right to get? Why don't we care what happens to that great unwashed bulk of high school graduates that finish their secondary education without job skills - without a rudimentary understanding of how credit - savings - or budgeting or family planning works?

IMO: the entire secondary education system in this country needs a major overhaul. It's NOT the teachers that need overhauling - it's the system. </font color>

It is my Christian view that we should help those less fortunate than us. However, that does not mean that I support welfare systems that breed crack whores and junkies. There is nothing in Christian doctrine that says "We need to waste money who self addicted and do not care about themselves, their families; nothing but drugs."

Maybe, just maybe, everyone does not need to go to college. Maybe we are now seeing people with degrees that don't add to their income, quality of life or job prospects. The view that everyone deserves a college education weather he/she wants one or not is not only wasteful it's silly. The attempt to give higher education to people with "D" high shcool grades and SAT in the single digits is destroying many higher education institutes in the US. Our degrees are less worth less each year on the world market.

<font color="blue">You're preaching to the choir here. But the problem also has to do with the fact that undergraduate degrees have become so commonplace that they no longer serve to differentiate one job candidate from another. Advanced degrees, and technical degrees are about the only way an educated individual can separate themselves from the competition these days. </font color>

You think I would drill a hole in your grandmother's grave for oil. I would support more competitive drilling in places we are now protecting. The fact that we risk a Sea Otter or a Snale Darter every generation is not a large risk to me. None of the other oil producers (nations)are being that averse to risk and it puts us at a competitive disadvantage.

<font color="blue">I tend to disagree here. The true copetitive disadvantage that we suffer from stems from our unwillingness to free ourselves from dependence on oil. As a nation we should be devoting ourselves to support for high speed mass transit systems that could move our population from place to place efficiently, effectively and at low cost. There are alternative fuels available but not the kind of financial backing required to develop them into viable alternatives. Meanwhile we keep building more highways and more cars with internal combustion engines and the oil dependency continues. I could be wrong, but I recently heard that China has mandated that their country be free of dependence on oil within ten years. Why can't we bite the bullet and make a similar objective our focus instead of fighting over drilling off the coast of California or punching holes in our pristine Arctic wilderness? </font color>

Tax the oil companies, nationize them, I don't carry that much oil stock. But let's produce more of our own, not import more. I would favor development of alternatives but the oil companies are too deep in all of congress's pocket, not just the republicans.

Bush has overlooked North Korea? It seems you kow what he should have done, more namby pamby negoiations? You have not been paying attention, the Kim Jung Il is a nut, a crazy nut.

<font color="blue">There are many who do not remember their history lessons very well. The last time we tried trouncing the crap out of North Korea we ended up in a war with China. North Korea has some VERY powerful allies and it is because of this that we do not now push any harder than we do. </font color>

I have noticed a proclivity among Catholics to abuse kids, many of you say that is a tradition within the Catholic Church. I wouldn't know, not being Catholic. I think they are being prosecuted and punished but that will not make it right for the ACLU to try and spring them out of jail. What is your point? You label all Christians with what a few Catholis have done? Hell my church doesn't even snake handle....yet.

<font color="blue">In the world of abnormal psychology there is a simple axiom: People with abnormal proclivities will seek jobs that allow them to express their abnormalities. Simply put it means that foot fetishists will seek jobs as shoe salesmen. Pedophiles will seek jobs in pre-schools. Criminals will look for jobs in law enforcement (or as lawyers) and homosexuals will seek jobs in same-sex professions (like the Catholic priesthood or the military for example). The fact that a great number of Catholic priests have been discovered to have molested alter boys is a more of a comment on the profession and the type of abnormal psyche that is drawn to it than it is about the Catholic Church. IMO: It's well past time for them to drop the celibacy restriction and start allowing married men into the priesthood. </font color>

Deeman

<hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color>

Deeman3
06-21-2006, 02:06 PM
Snakebyte,

I find your responses intellegent and well thought out. I agree with most of your points and think there is room for disagrement while on many items, I would not dare to say you are wrong. That's the nice thing about reasoned debate. I tell you my view, you share your view and many times, I change at least the harshness of my position and sometimes my entire thoughts on a subject.

I just have a problem with all the shouting all the same things day after day after day. You do not do this. Your point of our mutual disenchantment with our government is so true and if we direct ourselves to finding a better solution to our problems, we might not be so far apart.

Would I have voted for Gore, knowing what I know now, perhaps. Would he have been a better president, I think we still have to wait a decade to know how Bush is finally judged.

I would neverwant a person to starve just because they have no options. I want to give them education, jobs, training and food. i just want to stop giving it to those who just don't care and tell you that.

I also don't blame the teachers, but more the society that is destroying schools. That and unresponsible parents, lack of discipline and decay in moral attitudes.

I think even the Chinese are fringhtened of North Korea having a bomb. China would like to flex a little muscle every once in a while but now is not the time for them. They are just starting to emerge and even North Korea won't be enough of a cherry to motivate them to strike out, not just now. In a few years as we lose more power, they will (THEY WILL) do us in. By then I'll be retired in a very liberal country....
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman
wish there was good president waiting out there...

Deeman3
06-21-2006, 02:08 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote nAz:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>
I still feel better with them at the helm than any of the people your party has put forward. It may be sad that we have to pick the lesser of two evils but that's politics today.

Deeman

<hr /></blockquote>

Funny how the lesser of the two evils too me and most of the world looks like the republican and to you it looks like the Demos.

Dee in all Honesty I truly believe that Gore would have done a better Job on the economy and the war on Terror... If you could go back in time and know every thing that has happen would you still have voted for Bush over Gore? <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> My secret answer between only you and me is that if I knew what I knew now, I would not have even bothered to vote.....</font color>

Deeman

Gayle in MD
06-22-2006, 09:39 AM
You say I defend Bush's every move. I do not. Is he not doing the things I want to close out the war. No, but he's a lot closer to what I want than the democrats are with there policy of withdraw and abandon everything. Withdraw and abandon everything is not the Democratic policy, FYI, and I think you actually must know that, so why do you try to say that it is? The Democrats think that an open-ended policy until Iraq is peaceful, could take decades, and it could. Bush has already stated that it is for the next president to decide, which surely doesn't suggest he has any intention to get out before the end of his term. We're building huge bases overthere, why? You use the same dishonest rhetoric about the Democrats position as the GOP does. Democrats want the Iraqis to have a deadline, since they can't manage to get twelve men at a table to agree on anything for three and a half years. The mismanagment of this war cries out for policy change. Surely you can understand that? Do you deny that things are deterriorating, while the administration tries to claim improvment? The war is escalating, both in Iraq, and Afghanistan. How long, and how many more of our young people are you willing to sacrifice while an incompetenct Secretary of Defence continues to get rave reviews from your boy Bush? I know there is both incompetence and corruption in all of government; Bush White House and Congress and the Senate as well.
Yes, we all know that, but when our kids must die for it, that brings it to a different kind of debate, and for ore urgent reasons.

I still feel better with them at the helm than any of the people your party has put forward. It may be sad that we have to pick the lesser of two evils but that's politics today. Is it possible that you are partisan? Gore would never have gone to Iraq. Gore would have stayed focussed on bin Laden ad alQaeda. He has said that all along. No one could have F'd up this country like Bush has.

You falsly, as usual, stated that I have never critized GWB but have on immigration and on the wild spending spree he has taken us on. We are now spending more on education than ever with pitiful results. We pay nations to tolerate us and abuse us in the UN. This is part Bush, part our history for 40~50 years. I would prefer he not give all our money to Haliburton but they will spend it more wisely than the government will. Even coming from you, I find it hard to think that you would say this. Halliburton as stolen more money for the US tax payer than probably most any Corporation in history, except maybe Exon.

I don't particularily deny global warming. I just don't think it is as serious as many make it out to be.

I must admit, I failed to understand the urgency until either Snake, or Q, can't remember which one, got my interest peaked, and I started to study about it. Now that I have, all I can say it this...don't read about it! You will not sleep well if you do.

We have a basic disagreement about charity and welfare. You seem to believe the cure is to make the poor more dependent on the state for handouts. Not true, I believe that a country as great as this, could oversee a proper program, without corruption, that helps people to get a hand up, without funds going to the wrong people. I feel everyone who is capable should work and pay taxes. Agreed. I'm no supporter of free-loaders. Clinton had a great deal of success with culling them out, and improving our system. You want money dumped into the school systems while I want people who have the opportunity to get an education to be supported and those who are worthless and will do nothing to be thrown out and not supported by us. This would provide ample funds for education.

No, that isn't what I want, but I sure as hell don't want Bush giving tax gifts to millionaires, while he raises interest on college loans, and cuts funds for education. His program is a failure. Ask any dedicated teacher, and you will here this.

It is my Christian view that we should help those less fortunate than us. However, that does not mean that I support welfare systems that breed crack whores and junkies. There is nothing in Christian doctrine that says "We need to waste money who self addicted and do not care about themselves, their families; nothing but drugs."

I agree. I'm even more radical than you when it comes to that kind of abuse. However, I am against a president whose policies favor millionaires, and hurt the poor and the middle class grunts who can't get ahead because Bush keeps inviting illegals in here so that his corporate buddies can have an abundance of cheap labor, while middle class wages decline.

Maybe, just maybe, everyone does not need to go to college. Maybe we are now seeing people with degrees that don't add to their income, quality of life or job prospects. The view that everyone deserves a college education weather he/she wants one or not is not only wasteful it's silly. The attempt to give higher education to people with "D" high shcool grades and SAT in the single digits is destroying many higher education institutes in the US. Our degrees are less worth less each year on the world market.

I don't suppose you would see a connection between that decline, and outsourcing and illegal immigration? I don't agree with your assessment of who should and shouldn't get a college education. I don't think you can predict in advance how much education can change people. Ones education, is the only thing that can never be taken away from them, and it is the most important value for success in life that we can give to our children, along with a healthy work ethic. Not everything can e measured in dollars and cents.

You think I would drill a hole in your grandmother's grave for oil. I would support more competitive drilling in places we are now protecting. The fact that we risk a Sea Otter or a Snale Darter every generation is not a large risk to me. This is too simplistic and irrelevant for a response. This is how you always try to turn serious issues into extreme irrational statements which skim over the issue entirely. None of the other oil producers (nations)are being that averse to risk and it puts us at a competitive disadvantage. Tax the oil companies, nationize them, I don't carry that much oil stock. But let's produce more of our own, not import more. I would favor development of alternatives but the oil companies are too deep in all of congress's pocket, not just the republicans. LOL, I think this administration gets the gold star when it comes to looking out for the oil CEO's, to the detriment of our country. Al Gore's plan makes a thousand times more sense than anything George Bush would ever even consider doing to prevent dependency on fossil fuels. Hardly anyone could disagree with that. Unless ofcourse, they are a faux news affectionado.

Bush has overlooked North Korea? It seems you kow what he should have done, more namby pamby negoiations? You have not been paying attention, the Kim Jung Il is a nut, a crazy nut.
Oh no, I think he should have done just what he has done, run our forces into the ground in Iraq, run up three and a half trillion debt to North Korea's weapons suppliers, China, and embolden North Korea and Iran and alQaeda and the Taliban.
I have noticed a proclivity among Catholics to abuse kids, many of you say that is a tradition within the Catholic Church. I wouldn't know, not being Catholic. I think they are being prosecuted and punished Finally, after decades of Bishops hiding the offences, and moving priests into fresh new areas, where they could have a whoole new community of unsuspecting children to molest. but that will not make it right for the ACLU to try and spring them out of jail. What is your point? You label all Christians with what a few Catholis have done? NO, I simply point to some of the dangers of teqaching children that organized religion is the end all to human conscience. Hell my church doesn't even snake handle....yet. You sure about that?

What is wrong with a little vote manipulation if the target opponents are too stupid to even catch it or can't even learn how to use a voting machine properly? Doesn't matter much how you touch the screen if the vote has already been programmed to go to only one recipient, does it? Your support of vote manipulation doesn't surprise me, I have said many times that the right doesn't care about having legal elections, only that their side wins, thanks for proving I was right. Should they be trusted with government if they can't even police this? Yes, it takes a while to discover underhanded, illegal activity, and republicans are decietful and wicked enough to perfect such election fraud, and having all three branches of government, AND the Supreme Court in their back pockets will insure more fraudulent assaults on our nation, and against our Constitution, not that I think you care about it, as you yourself, have stated. I mean, your last two brilliant candidates were pretty quick to concede. Did they know somehting you didn't or did you just pick stupid candidates again? BWA HA HA HA HA...you gotta be kidding! A Bush supporter, cirtical of someone who might have picked a stupid cnadidate? AH AH AH AH, Pahleze, my sides are hurting! Guess along with your thinking ability, your memory is gone also. You were all calling Gore a poor loser because he questioned the election, and wanted the votes re-counted, and now that we know what Katherine Harris had pulled off with her 'Purge Lists" we know why Bush 's Daddy's friends in the Supreme Court realized they would have to just over-ride all of democracy, and appoint the idiot.

Your saying that we in the fly over states are endangered because of Bush is not really true. It's the large cities that will be washed away frist, Right, tell it to the people who used to live in New Orleans! we know how to deal with tornadoes (we don't often whine to the goverment) That's good, cause as long as Bush is running the show, no one will be listening, and no polans will be perfected to help you out anyway! So if the costal cities are washed away, then maybe the global warming will have some benefit in the end and I will be proven right. You obviously haven't studied the subject mush, and I can't fault you, as I neglected it myself for a long time. Now that I have learned what the Oil companies have spent to prevent the scientific information from reaching the public, Bush and Cheney are even more evil than even I knew, and far more corrupt.

Now in your dislusional way are blaming us for the beheadings around the world. You wouldn't dare blame the people who are actually doing the beheading, would you? You wouldn't dare blame George bush for emboldening the terrorists around the world, increasing the hatred of America, drawing terrorists into Iraq, launching an unwinnable war, and leaving our poorly equipped troops without enough boots on the ground, or proper leadership, to the methods of the beheaders, now would you? That would not be liberal of you. I am very proud of being a liberal. The fact the neocons hate liberals, is a good indication of how much they envy our humanitarrian philosophies. You will critize a prisoner who didn't get his unlevened bread but blame the beheadings on your own country, what an American! No Deeman, I don't blame our troops for anything. I blame the idiot who put them in there with no leadership of expertise for prosecuting this war. How long, and how many are you willing to sacrifice for a country whose people want amnesty for those who kill our troops, and behead them? How long will you support a president who lied to them about why they must go? and how long are you and your right wing party going to try to convince the world that in spite of loads of documentation to the contrary, Americans are better off for having gone there in the first place. The reports all say the same thing, WE ARE NO SAFER HERE! There is no connection between safety here in America, or anwhaere else in the world, because our troops are dying in Iraq. Yet, you and your party have only one pisspoor suggestion...Stay The Course? Brilliant!

I don't want any more casualties but there will be more. Finally, one accurate prediction. This is an average ot two people a day. Oh, I see, just a number? Isn't that the same reported attitude the White House has about our 2500 dead marker event? Lets see how that stacks up here when your party withdraws and brings the fight to America.

Deeman

Let's see how you defend this stupid conclusion that fighting in Iraq makes us safer here when next alQaeda attacks us on our soil. We already know, bin Laden got away because Bush was focussed on Iraq, (Read Cobra II)and that we have terrorist cells right here in our country, and that bush has gotten an F on making us safer. But you, want to stay the course, and to hell with what is happening to our troops. Just make sure Bush manages to save the myth of his golden legacy and fill the pockets of his oil friends, no matter how many more lives we lose?

[b]The definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and expect a different result. Bush, and his policies, and supporters, are insane to think that more lives lost in Iraq will be the solution to the problem of Islamic terrorism, and terrorist attacks here in our country. Such logic is indefensible, and completely without merit, as you will eventually learn.

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
06-22-2006, 10:17 AM
"Such logic is indefensible, and completely without merit, as you will eventually learn."

Mark my words Gayle, when another president and admin come to office and finally has to deal with this emmense snafu, these guys will THEN point a big finger to the left just because. Many of these bushites won't learn a friggin thing unless their personal family members physically get stuck with a knife, and GW is there holding the knife. Otherwise they will simply wait to blame it on a future prez other than theirs today. I'd call that neglectfull in regards to the welfare of this country for intellegent Americans to be that way. Neither you nor I claimed to be left nor right before all this mess, but I bet you are like me today...anything BUT Bush-right...sid

Gayle in MD
06-22-2006, 10:37 AM
Exactly, Martin. Who can you think of, name any president, that has damaged this country to the degree that George Bush has damaged it? These righties would rather accuse me of redundency, that to address the long long list of illegal activities of this administration, the lies, and the incompetence and corruption. Anything but acknowledge the truth! BUSH was wrong, about everything! He is still wrong. Only fools would subscribe to Stay The Course, when the war is going to hell in a handbasket. And, Only fools would connect speaking out against the very corruption and lies and incompetence that have actually increased terrorists, and terrorist attacks, with support for terrorists. Obviously, the right has no feasible defence for Bush's ineptitude, therefore, they slander those of us who were smart enough to see through him from the start.

No, they'd rather have another Vietnam, ten more years in Iraq, and another forty-four or five thousand dead. They skew what the Democrats are calling for, making changes in policies which have proven to have failed, into cowardess, and cut and run, when in reality, they're position is to tell our troops to continue to die for an indeterminable amount of time, for a misconstrued non-existent cause, and so that George Bush won't have to look like the total nincompoop that he was for going in there in the first place. Bush is an idiot, Cheney is down right evil, Rumsfeld in completely incompetent, and anyone who supports more of this mess in Iraq is insane. It's not going to work. It's only going to get worse. It will lead to nothing more more killings, more beheadings, and more kaos, period. Stay the course, is insanity.

Gayle in Md.