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BurloakB
06-17-2006, 11:27 AM
Was wondering what the term 'checked" means in reference to cue ball action. I've heard Strickland use this term, ie: "The cue ball checked on me".

I thought Earl might have meant that the cue ball hopped up after collision with the OB and lost it's action. But I also thought he meant the cue ball stopped up too soon or rolled funny on him.

It was hard to tell given the situation, namely the cue ball didn't go where he intended it to go.

Would love to know, thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

andrew
06-17-2006, 09:51 PM
Check side or reverse english is when a ball hits the rail spinning away from where it is heading, usually used to slow the cueball down. I think thats probably what he meant

BurloakB
06-18-2006, 08:01 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote andrew:</font><hr> Check side or reverse english is when a ball hits the rail spinning away from where it is heading, usually used to slow the cueball down. I think thats probably what he meant <hr /></blockquote>I've never heard inside english referred to as "check side" before. When Strickland used the expression he was playing for tough position and hooked himself from the lowest numbered ball. So do you mean that the reverse english he used grabbed a little more than he figured causing the cueball to slow up short of ideal position?. Thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

andrew
06-19-2006, 08:23 AM
I wouldn't say check side and inside english are the same, because the function of inside english is not always to slow the cueball down (e.g. cutting a ball 10 degrees to the right, playing top-right english and forcing the ball 3 cushions). I would guess that is what he meant.

Cornerman
06-19-2006, 08:58 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote andrew:</font><hr> Check side or reverse english is when a ball hits the rail spinning away from where it is heading, usually used to slow the cueball down. I think thats probably what he meant <hr /></blockquote>I've never heard inside english referred to as "check side" before. <hr /></blockquote>Andrew said "reverse english," not "inside english." Normally, when people talk about "inside english," they're talking about the english in relation to the cut on the object ball. When people talk about "reverse english," they're normally talking about the english in relation to the cushion (which Andrew detailed well).

[ QUOTE ]
When Strickland used the expression he was playing for tough position and hooked himself from the lowest numbered ball. So do you mean that the reverse english he used grabbed a little more than he figured causing the cueball to slow up short of ideal position?. Thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif <hr /></blockquote> He probably was saying that the cueball grabbed (checked) on the cushion more than he was expecting. Was the second cushion non-adjacent to the first cushion he hit?

Check english = reverse english (on the cushion).

Fred

Vagabond
06-19-2006, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote andrew:</font><hr><hr /></blockquote>I've never heard inside english referred to as "check side" before. <hr /></blockquote>

Things are getting mixed up here.The gentleman from Australia is using the term used in snooker whoose roots are in England.In America we do not use that term to describe that situation.In America we have different terminology.For Example: British say `Screw` and in USA it means drawing the cue ball backwards. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif

BurloakB
06-19-2006, 01:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>Andrew said "reverse english," not "inside english." Normally, when people talk about "inside english," they're talking about the english in relation to the cut on the object ball. When people talk about "reverse english," they're normally talking about the english in relation to the cushion (which Andrew detailed well).<hr /></blockquote>"Reverse English" and "Inside English" are the exact same thing, just differing expressions because there are differing countries involved, as Vagabond mentioned above.

Andrew used the term "Reverse" because he's from Australia, I said Inside because I'm from Canada. Up here I've often heard the term reverse used in reference to draw english. What we mean is any english that causes the cue ball to fight against it's natural direction off the rail. Reverse English defined - Billiards Dictionary (http://www.billiardsdictionary.com/r_billiards/reverse_english_billiards.php)

I'm sure what Earl meant was the inside/reverse english grabbed more than he expected and caused the cue ball to come to rest out of position.

Thanks for everyone's thoughts on this one.

Cornerman
06-19-2006, 01:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> "Reverse English" and "Inside English" are the exact same thing, <hr /></blockquote> No, they're not. Not in American pool.

[ QUOTE ]
Andrew said "Reverse" because he's from Australia, I said Inside because I'm from Canada, same thing though. Reverse English defined - Billiards Dictionary (http://www.billiardsdictionary.com/r_billiards/reverse_english_billiards.php)<hr /></blockquote>That definition is clearly wrong. Someone should be flogged heavily for doling out such confusion. Hopefully, the people at PoolDawg.com get a hold of this thread and get it straight.

Andrew was very clear on what he said, Australian or otherwise.

Fred

BurloakB
06-19-2006, 01:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> "Reverse English" and "Inside English" are the exact same thing, <hr /></blockquote> No, they're not. Not in American pool.

&lt;/font&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;font class="small"&gt;Quote:&lt;/font&gt;&lt;hr /&gt;
Andrew said "Reverse" because he's from Australia, I said Inside because I'm from Canada, same thing though. Reverse English defined - Billiards Dictionary (http://www.billiardsdictionary.com/r_billiards/reverse_english_billiards.php)<hr /></blockquote>That definition is clearly wrong. Someone should be flogged heavily for doling out such confusion. Hopefully, the people at PoolDawg.com get a hold of this thread and get it straight.

Andrew was very clear on what he said, Australian or otherwise.

Fred
<hr /></blockquote>Fred, it's all semantics you're getting caught up in. When you use inside english and the cue ball hits a rail, it's now become reverse english. If you are cutting an OB to the right and using right-side english, the cue ball will fight to go right of it's natural course after hitting a rail.

The difference between the two is whether or not a rail is involved. In my original post I never stated that Earl was driving the cue ball to any rail, Andrew just assumed that, as did you.

Bob_Jewett
06-19-2006, 01:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr> ... That definition is clearly wrong. Someone should be flogged heavily for doling out such confusion. Hopefully, the people at PoolDawg.com get a hold of this thread and get it straight.... <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, there are multiple problems with the "dictionary" on the PoolDawg site. It's a big job to get such things right.

I've heard UK/Commonwealth speakers use "check side" to mean both inside english and reverse english. There are some situations where check side on the object ball is not check side on the cushion.

An exercise for the student: Do a shot with each of
<ul type="square"> Inside follow reverse
Inside follow running
Inside draw reverse
Inside draw running
Outside follow reverse
Outside follow running
Outside draw reverse
Outside draw running
[/list]
Try to set the shot up so it would actually be useful in a game.

Bob_Jewett
06-19-2006, 01:47 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> .. When you use inside english and the cue ball hits a rail, it's now become reverse english. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Only sometimes. See my exercise. When I use inside english, it is nearly always running english.

BurloakB
06-19-2006, 01:50 PM
I regret ever asking this question, and no one has even answered it properly, they're just picking at my choice of wording.

Let me lay it out for you, whatever the words I chose to use, Earl was using spin that made the cue ball fight to go against it normal path.

BurloakB
06-19-2006, 02:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> .. When you use inside english and the cue ball hits a rail, it's now become reverse english. ... <hr /></blockquote>
Only sometimes. See my exercise. When I use inside english, it is nearly always running english. <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, but even with running inside english, the cue ball is exiting the rail at an affected angle. Try the exact same shot with just plain running english along the vertical axis. The path is different because the inside english is causing the cue ball to resist it's natural roll.

Like I said, it's all semantics. Let me put it this way.

When you're aiming a shot and intending to make the path of the cue ball reverse, where are you aiming on the cue ball?. You are aiming at the inner side of the angle. The inner side is known as "inside". Semantics.

Cornerman
06-19-2006, 03:44 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> Fred, it's all semantics you're getting caught up in. When you use inside english and the cue ball hits a rail, it's now become reverse english. <hr /></blockquote>Only half the time. The other half, it's running english. Since you are the one asking about clarification on pool terminology, I'd think you'd want to take advantage of some of the answers.

[ QUOTE ]
The difference between the two is whether or not a rail is involved. In my original post I never stated that Earl was driving the cue ball to any rail, Andrew just assumed that, as did you.
<hr /></blockquote>Are you saying that a rail was not involved? That's a lot of posts for you to finally bring that up. "Check" is a common term in pool. Obviously, we're going to answer the common way.

Fred

Bob_Jewett
06-19-2006, 05:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> ...
Yes, but even with running inside english, the cue ball is exiting the rail at an affected angle. Try the exact same shot with just plain running english along the vertical axis. The path is different because the inside english is causing the cue ball to resist it's natural roll.
... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, no. When I use running inside english the cue ball leaves the cushion at an angle more parallel to the cushion and with an increase in speed along the cushion. I think that it does not "resist it's natural roll" on such a shot.

BurloakB
06-19-2006, 05:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> ...
Yes, but even with running inside english, the cue ball is exiting the rail at an affected angle. Try the exact same shot with just plain running english along the vertical axis. The path is different because the inside english is causing the cue ball to resist it's natural roll.
... <hr /></blockquote>
Well, no. When I use running inside english the cue ball leaves the cushion at an angle more parallel to the cushion and with an increase in speed along the cushion. I think that it does not "resist it's natural roll" on such a shot. <hr /></blockquote>
IMHO it makes absolutelly zero sense to use that combination of english, (inside/running), if the resultant path is greater than without inside english.

If it leaves at more of an angle with greater speed as you claim, than why even use inside english?. Why not keep it simple and use natural (outside) english. Outside english bears the same reuslt, increasing the angle off the rail and the cue ball speed.

If you can achieve the same results using natural english, why wouldn't you?. Sounds like over-thinking to me.

Anyway, I'm done with this subject, thanks to all and have a good day.

Bob_Jewett
06-19-2006, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> ... IMHO it makes absolutelly zero sense to use that combination of english, (inside/running), if the resultant path is greater than without inside english. ...<hr /></blockquote>
Well, OK, here is an example that may make things clearer. The cue ball is on the foot spot. An object ball is half way to a corner foot pocket and not quite straight in, requiring a little cut to the left. You play the shot with inside (left side) follow, and that english is running english when the cue ball follows forward and hits the cushion and the cue ball zips around the corner picking up speed on both rails.

I think this is a pretty standard shot.

Cornerman
06-20-2006, 05:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> IMHO it makes absolutelly zero sense to use that combination of english, (inside/running), if the resultant path is greater than without inside english.
<hr /></blockquote>Clearly we have a problem in communication. There are entirely too many shots that fit this description.

Here's one. With inside english, your angle is wider off the cushion to double the corner. Without it, you'll head toward pocket A.

Double the Corner with Inside (http://CueTable.com/P/?@3GKEB3HLhR1IExb4PFof4kFof2kHSA2kPIg2kbYK3kCjK3uA hK@)

Here's the standard three railer:

Standard 3-Railer (http://CueTable.com/P/?@4GACT4HGjb2IJUa4PAIJ4QLAy4bACT3bcpw4kAIJ4kBIG8kL NM4kbaU4kTQj3kbnf1kWPP@)

Without the inside english, the angle is narrower, and you might end up going down a path towards A and the 8-ball.

Fred

Scott Lee
06-20-2006, 11:29 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> I regret ever asking this question, and no one has even answered it properly, they're just picking at my choice of wording.

Let me lay it out for you, whatever the words I chose to use, Earl was using spin that made the cue ball fight to go against it normal path. <hr /></blockquote>

Your question was answered by several posters correctly, including Andrew (the first answer). The fact that you don't like the answer, doesn't mean it wasn't answered. Sidespin (english) will have little or no effect on the path of the CB, after contact with an OB, until a rail is contacted (unless top or bottom are added to the sidespin). "Check" generally refers to 'reverse' sidespin, which would have the opposite effect of running sidespin, after contact with a cushion...and would slow the CB down.
If you want a better answer, perhaps you should learn how to use the WEI system, and diagram the shot, for all of us to see.

Scott Lee

SpiderMan
06-20-2006, 12:34 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> Fred, it's all semantics you're getting caught up in. When you use inside english and the cue ball hits a rail, it's now become reverse english. If you are cutting an OB to the right and using right-side english, the cue ball will fight to go right of it's natural course after hitting a rail. <hr /></blockquote>

And "fighting to go right of it's natural course could be either reverse or running, depending on the angle at which the cueball enters the rail. Here are two examples - in both cases the cueball is being cut to the right and right (inside) english is used.

In the first example, the english is reverse on the rail:

START(
%An9H1%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%Pm3M1%Ur6D3%Vn9H0%W k4D5%Xn2I0
%]n0J0%^m3M0%eC5a3%_j1K6%`j4G5%aj9C6
)END

In the second example, right (inside) is running on the rail:

START(
%Aa5O0%BL7P8%CJ5O4%DL7N1%EM7P1%FK6P1%GK6N8%HM7N8%I L7O4%JK6M5
%KJ5P7%LJ5N2%MK6Q4%NJ5R0%OJ5M0%PZ6N9%Um5F7%Vh4C7%W s1[1%Xa4N9
%[g9D4%\`5N3%]_6N5%^Z6N9%eC8a3
)END

WEI (http://endeavor.med.nyu.edu/~wei/pool/pooltable2.html)

SpiderMan

Sid_Vicious
06-20-2006, 02:20 PM
I haven't read this thread except for this and Scott's reply, yet I'll add that there can be thread crapping here. Many times I see a post taken way off it's simple question by opinions of things in the verbage, spelling...you name it. Don't ask me why but it seems like a perpetual event once the thread crapping begins. I feel your pain Friend...sid

BurloakB
06-20-2006, 07:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Scott Lee:</font><hr>If you want a better answer, perhaps you should learn how to use the WEI system, and diagram the shot, for all of us to see.

Scott Lee <hr /></blockquote>
I can't use the WEI table as I'm using an older mac, don't have the plug-ins to work.

As for the "reverse english" and "inside english" not being the same thing debate, I have one last thing to say. The definition below is copied verbatim from my BCA rule book.

<font color="blue">Reverse English
Side-spin applied to the cue ball that favors the opposite direction of the natural cue ball path, i.e., inside english </font color>

Notice it uses the word "favor" and they don't make the distinction of what affect this english has on the cue ball's path. Both reverse and inside english are in reference to which side of the vertical axis you are contacting the CB.

Reverse english doesn'tt have to actually make the ball change direction to be considered reverse english. Anytime you apply side-spin favoring the inside, (or smaller), cut angle, either term "reverse english" or "inside english" is acceptable. In Canada we use the term inside english anytime side-spin is applied on the smaller cut angle. Might be different in the US, but it shouldn't be.

If I'm going to have a bunch of posters jump down my throat for something as silly as a communication barrier, I think I'm done posting here. Thanks for the serious replies.

BTW - Thanks Sid /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Bob_Jewett
06-21-2006, 07:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> ... BCA rule book.

<font color="blue">Reverse English
Side-spin applied to the cue ball that favors the opposite direction of the natural cue ball path, i.e., inside english </font color>

...

If I'm going to have a bunch of posters jump down my throat for something as silly as a communication barrier, I think I'm done posting here. Thanks for the serious replies.... <hr /></blockquote>
Several posters did their best to clarify the way the terms are used in the US. Sadly, the BCA rule book is out of step with the common usage in the US. It is unfortunate that you chose to be offended by what were largely intended to be helpful comments.

BurloakB
06-21-2006, 09:36 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> Several posters did their best to clarify the way the terms are used in the US. Sadly, the BCA rule book is out of step with the common usage in the US. It is unfortunate that you chose to be offended by what were largely intended to be helpful comments.<hr /></blockquote>
Bob,

I'm not in the US - there will be differences in the terms I use. You, Fred and Scott seem determined to convince me I'm doing something wrong by wording things differently from the way you choose to word them. In regards to this thread, I don't agree with any of you in the slightest.

In my original post I asked about the expression, "the cue ball checked on me" and it was explained by Andrew and Andrew only. I didn't ask or need clarification on the difference between reverse english and inside english, as there is no difference.

The BCA definition is not "out of step" with the common usage in Canada. When side-spin was first taught to me some 25 years ago, it was explained the way the BCA rule book defines it. You can insist on one way and continue to claim certain definitions are all wrong, but they have credibility with me. The BCA has been around for 58 years, how old are you guys again?.

Maybe you should write the BCA a letter and tell them they're out of step instead of busting my balls. I've never seen a bigger bunch of nitpickers in my whole life.

Sid_Vicious
06-21-2006, 10:04 AM
"I've never seen a bigger bunch of nitpickers in my whole life."

I have to disagree friend. Amongst all the other discussion boards I've visited, this one has the most cordial and intellegent people. I agreed with you in part in my reply earlier concerning thread-crapping, but my solid opinion of this group is top notch...Jm2c

BurloakB
06-21-2006, 11:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Sid_Vicious:</font><hr> "I've never seen a bigger bunch of nitpickers in my whole life."

I have to disagree friend. Amongst all the other discussion boards I've visited, this one has the most cordial and intellegent people. I agreed with you in part in my reply earlier concerning thread-crapping, but my solid opinion of this group is top notch...Jm2c <hr /></blockquote>I've visited all the other forums as well, and it's always these same 3 or 4 guys who are members on all of them. They pick at the tiniest inconsequential details, as if that's the only reason they frequent forums. Intelligence and cordial don't usually go hand in hand

These guys think they're offering help, but If help wasn't requested or needed, they're really just annoying pests.

When a thread is regarding a specific question, just stick to answering the question or post nothing at all.

bsmutz
06-21-2006, 11:18 AM
It's sometimes best to remember that many of these posts are not directed at you specifically but for the general knowledge of all who may read them. I personally think that it is in everyone's best interest to become more familiar with terminology differences between players in different countries. As far as this being "the biggest bunch of nitpickers" you've seen in your whole life, how old are you again?

BurloakB
06-21-2006, 11:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote bsmutz:</font><hr> It's sometimes best to remember that many of these posts are not directed at you specifically but for the general knowledge of all who may read them. I personally think that it is in everyone's best interest to become more familiar with terminology differences between players in different countries. As far as this being "the biggest bunch of nitpickers" you've seen in your whole life, how old are you again? <hr /></blockquote>
When something is being corrected with incorrect information, it serves no benefit to the general knowledge base. Other posters may have a problem with the words I choose, but I have a problem with them correcting me unjustly. Consider that my personal responsibility to this forum.

Fred, Scott and Bob's motive was not to clear up differing terminology between countries. Their motive was to correct me into using the US terminology.

Problem is, they don't know the right definition themselves. When they are given proof, they deny it.

If you're going to correct someone, at least have the right answer.

i really don't have the time or energy to debate these guys so I'm through posting here.

Fran Crimi
06-21-2006, 11:50 AM
Actually, it's probably not a good idea to use the BCA as your basis for fact if you disagree with these guys here. Two of the posters here literally 'write' the rules that go into the BCA book.

Oh and by the way, if you send a question about this to the BCA, guess who your question will be forwarded to? Me. I'll be happy to repeat to you what these guys already told you.

The World Standardized Rules were recently updated by Bob Jewett and are now in the most recent version of the BCA Rule book. The only thing that still lags behind in some instances are the definitions, and I will personally correct this definition myself unless Bob would like to,(the one that you don't agree with) and submit it for subsequent rule books so that this doesn't happen again.

Oh and for the record, I've been playing for 30-odd years and I've always known the distinction between reverse and inside english, regardless of which book says what. I have no idea why it's been stated in the definitions that way in the first place, but it's definitely wrong and needs to be corrected. This is not something that's new.

Fran

Bumps
06-21-2006, 01:16 PM
It's too bad you feel that you have to leave. I've been playing, in the US, for 30 years and have always understood reverse and inside english to be two different things. Inside: spinning toward the object ball, reverse: spinning away from it. On the other hand, since I moved below the mason-dixon line, I seldom hear "follow" or "draw". It's "top english" and "bottom english".

Sid_Vicious
06-21-2006, 01:31 PM
Truth is I don't visit other sites these days, so you may have a valid point. I usually find the "different" personalities on any type of common interest, internet discussion group, happens to orbit other sites as well. I won't imply the respondents in this thread are such, as my opinion about most everyone here is good, but that doesn't mean that your take between the different sites is wrong either. Fun to follow the discussion though, ain't it /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif...sid~~~warns you to not call cloth, felt...that'll surface the flurry of vocabulary police REAL fast, like it really makes a difference!

heater451
06-21-2006, 05:26 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BurloakB:</font><hr> Was wondering what the term 'checked" means in reference to cue ball action. I've heard Strickland use this term, ie: "The cue ball checked on me".

I thought Earl might have meant that the cue ball hopped up after collision with the OB and lost it's action. But I also thought he meant the cue ball stopped up too soon or rolled funny on him.

It was hard to tell given the situation, namely the cue ball didn't go where he intended it to go.

Would love to know, thanks. /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif <hr /></blockquote>Sorry, to come into this thread late (after you've given up on it), but if you go outside of the strictly "pool terminology", and consider a baser definition, you may have your answer.

Given the sentence attributed to Strickland (above), and your own "stopped up too soon", and "the cue ball didn't go where he intended it", it would seem that "checked" is related to stop-check, which would be basically what you said--stopping too soon. Of course, the "stop" part of stop-check usually means just that, a stop.

Also, consider a hockey player getting "checked", or a "check" in chess (stopping the movement of the King--albeit, temporarily).

I would say that your idea of what Strickland meant was on the money, although I can't positively confirm it, since I am not Earl.

Just some thoughts. . . .


========================

cushioncrawler
06-21-2006, 06:04 PM
I agree with Andrew -- in ozzy billiardz and snooker.....

"Check Side" is sidespin that slowz the qball when it hits the cushion, i mean more-so than the "slowz" that u get with zero sidespin.

"Running Side" is sidespin that fasts the qball, or at least it slowz the qball less.

"Inside English" -- this pool-term doesnt exist in billiards nor in snooker, ie to describe the qball-objectball impact -- in fact no similar term exists, hard to believe iznt it -- in ozz, allmost everyone says "check side" to describe this sort of qball-objectball impact, which is incorrect, but widespread, allmost universal in fact -- purists would just say "left-hand-side", or "right-hand-side" -- from now on i am going to uze the pool-term, ie "inside english".

"Outside English" -- az above -- in ozz we wrongly say "running side" to describe this sort of qball-objectball impact -- but from now on i am going to say "outside english".

"Reverse English" iz a terrible term, no matter what it is meant to mean, no matter what your game -- Fran, dont redefine it, just junk it, dont put it in the recycling bin, just junk it. U may borrow "check side" -- or call it "check english" if u want.

I detect some slight problems in the earlyr postings -- if Pool cushions are anything like 12' cushions -- as follows.

Speed -- I reckon that Check Side would have allmost zero effect on the qball's speed when hitting the cushion at say 30dg or less -- no big deal.

Angle -- I reckon that Check Side has allmost zero effect on the qball's angle when hitting the cushion at say 45dg or less. In fact, i reckon that, at say 40dg or less, Check Side actually lessens the rebound angle. Or are Pool cushions very different to 12' cushions?????

Fran -- when u do get around to redefining "Inside English" (or "Check English"), i reckon that u will have to decide whether the usage will include the effect on the "rebound angle" as well as the "speed" -- and u might be faced with the complication that "Reverse (Check) English" might sometimes be used to lessen, not increase, the angle.

I will be happy to be corrected on any of this stuff.

Bob_Jewett
06-21-2006, 06:51 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> ... "Reverse English" iz a terrible term, no matter what it is meant to mean, no matter what your game -- Fran, dont redefine it, just junk it, dont put it in the recycling bin, just junk it. U may borrow "check side" -- or call it "check english" if u want.
... <hr /></blockquote>
The problem is that "reverse" has a very long history in US billiard usage. The pair is "running" and "reverse." I think it is not useful for dictionaries to dictate changes, usually.

cushioncrawler
06-21-2006, 07:21 PM
Yes -- usage is usage -- but perhaps Fran could slowly ease-in the better term. The reason i mentioned it was koz the main problem is the growing usage of "draw english", which makes "reverse english" look much too ambiguous from this side of the ocean.

"Reverse English" could allmost be a good term for a sub-set of "check english" -- it could cover the cases where u want the qball to come back on your side of the perpendicular (i should say "of the normal"), this would only be possible when the angle of attack is nearly perpendicular (nearly normal) in the first place. Just thinking out loud here.

cushioncrawler
06-21-2006, 07:45 PM
Jimmy White's snooker book is the first (and only??) book that i have seen that describes another form of "checking" the qball. I have been patiently looking for a mention of this sort of check-shot in other threads in this forum, and this looks like a good place to bring it up. It works like this....

U want to cut a ball into a corner pocket -- the qball will then hit the end cushion and rebound to the other end cushion -- if u play the shot harder, the qball rebounds back to where it started (or further). But Jimmy haz another way......

Jimmy plays the cut with draw. The draw then evaporates just before the qball meets the end cushion -- while the qball is skidding it looks as tho it has disc brakes. The qball was speeding when it hit the objectball -- it had to, to give the OB enuff pace to reach the pocket -- but by the time the qball gets to the cushion it is going at perhaps half that pace. The qball ends up near where it started, ie in the same half of the table, without having to go down and up the table.

Fran can call this "Check Draw" -- this mention here is "Usage No1" i guess.

Fran Crimi
06-22-2006, 05:49 AM
Sounds like you might be describing what we know as 'drag draw' or as Howie Pearl coined back in the '70's...draw-follow. The key point is that the cue ball continues to move forward but at a much slower pace due to the shooter's strategic timing of the skid.

Fran

Fran Crimi
06-22-2006, 05:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> ... "Reverse English" iz a terrible term, no matter what it is meant to mean, no matter what your game -- Fran, dont redefine it, just junk it, dont put it in the recycling bin, just junk it. U may borrow "check side" -- or call it "check english" if u want.
... <hr /></blockquote>
The problem is that "reverse" has a very long history in US billiard usage. The pair is "running" and "reverse." I think it is not useful for dictionaries to dictate changes, usually. <hr /></blockquote>

Good point. Maybe that's the part of people's lack of understanding here---some folks aren't familliar with the correlations --- Outside-Inside --- Running-Reverse. Players who think there are only outside, inside and reverse will of course, mistakenly equate inside with reverse. Where else would it belong in their minds?

Fran

Bob_Jewett
06-22-2006, 08:57 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr> Jimmy White's snooker book ...
U want to cut a ball into a corner pocket -- the qball will then hit the end cushion and rebound to the other end cushion -- if u play the shot harder, the qball rebounds back to where it started (or further). But Jimmy haz another way......

Jimmy plays the cut with draw. ... <hr /></blockquote>
I do not recall seeing this shot in print, but I use it all the time. There needs to be space between the object ball and the rail the cue ball hits, or the draw does not have time to slow the cue ball down. A clearer example is playing a thin cut on a ball on the center spot (blue on a snooker table) into the side pocket. Suppose the cue ball is close to the ball to make the shot (and draw) easier. If you play the shot with draw, the major effect is after the cue ball hits the object ball and slows down on the way to the end rail. (It curves back some as well, but not so much with the thin hit.)

This shot falls under the general heading of "killing the cue ball" which means to minimize its motion after contact with the object ball. Usually this requires something more than playing the shot as softly as possible.

Fran Crimi
06-22-2006, 12:12 PM
Yes, kill shot also...in addition to the two I listed.

Fran

HOWARD
06-22-2006, 04:01 PM
"Check" in horse racing usually means the horse had to be
slowed for some reason.

When I am playing I would refer to english going against the natural way it would go as "kill english" and if it was going with the natural way it was referred to as "running english."

cushioncrawler
06-22-2006, 04:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Yes, kill shot also...in addition to the two I listed.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

Getting back to BurloakB's original posting -- it is beginning to look to me that Strictland's problem with the qball checking up on him was very probably him "killing the qball" -- which he would of course know about -- but which i guess bit him unexpectedly when his brain was hurting. I get the impression that in the particular shot that BurloakB had in mind the qball didnt reach a cushion, but its the same effect anyhow.

"Kill Shot" -- "Killing the qball" -- "Drag Draw" -- "Draw Follow" -- "Check Draw" ---- Shamos will need to publish his encyclopedia in 2 volumes.

Scott Lee
06-22-2006, 06:37 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Sounds like you might be describing what we know as 'drag draw' or as Howie Pearl coined back in the '70's...draw-follow. <hr /></blockquote>

Fran...Hey, do you know that Mighty Mouse lives? I chat with him regularly on IM. He and I still play every time I go to FL! I'm the only guy he has played pool with in the last 15 yrs...and he can still play, although his legs bother him after a short while! Ya gotta love Howie. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Too bad he doesn't even lurk anymore, let alone post. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Scott