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View Full Version : What's the proper course of action here?



sack316
06-19-2006, 02:04 PM
This may get long and unorganized, so I ask your forgiveness in advance for that!

Well we just wrapped up the APA 9-Ball city tournament yesterday, and honestly I feel my team may have suffered a huge injustice. It's been a grueling 3 full days of playing, but I'll explain it all as best I can. A few things have rubbed me the wrong way, and I would like to get some outside opinions about it from you guys and gals.

First off, as I said this is a City tournament (Montgomery, AL), with all the top 9-ball teams from the last year playing for Vegas. The first "problem", which isn't huge, would be that teams from Auburn were included in it. Were this a "District" or "Regional" team tournament then fine, but it is in fact a city tournament. I'm not sure how big the leagues are in Auburn (which is operated by the same LO's as here), but apparently it's not big enough to afford their own tournament to earn a place for nationals. But at any rate, their greens fees and such are not contributed to anything here at all, and have no relation to us in any way. When my team won the Money Cup a little while back, none of the money for that tournament was contributed from Auburn's fees either. Yet somehow they can play in our City Tournament? Again, the fact of them being there in the first place isn't a HUGE deal, but a minor annoyance yes--in my humble opinion.

OK, now Auburn is a bit of a drive, but not more than ten minutes longer than coming from Prattville-- which is where myself and many many others in the league drive from on any given league night to play. Well, when they drew the brackets up, they decided to give all the Auburn teams a bye through the first round (which was played Friday night) due to the travel. Now is it just me, or is it only fair that if they are going to play in the same tournament that they should be subject to the same random draw everyone else playing has, rather than getting some special treatment?

Alright, now it gets more complicated. Late Saturday a friend from another team comes and tells me that they got screwed. Apparently they had one player get bumped up two spots and another bumped up one rank. The LO's told their team they were flagged and would be watched. If they won a match they would have to forfeit because of the SL changes. Well that actually sounds fair to me, since it keeps out teams full of sandbaggers. Remember part that for later...

Alright, so my team chugs along through some tight a great matches to make it to the final day. Sunday we are down to two matches away from finally making Vegas. We pull our morning match out by the skin of out teeth and find that we will be playing one of the Auburn teams in the finals. So of course we've got every Montgomery player coming to tell us about that team, and here's what I found out:

First after their bye Friday, they decided not to show up to their second round match Saturday morning. This was a modified single elimination tourney, so you could lose in the first two rounds not not anytime afterwards. I learned that they forfeited their match because their ranks were very close to going up. Well this didn't seem right to me either. On top of that it turns out that even though they had only played 3 or 4 matches to get to the finals, they had a 3 jump up two spots to a 5, and another three move up one rank to a 4 (hmm... sounding familiar). So while we were playing them I called the captain from my friends team that was in the same situation just to make sure the scenario was the same. After hearing his story it was indeed the exact same thing. So I asked the LO what the difference between this team playing for the championship was from the team they told would forfeit. I never really felt I got a straight answer that would justify them being eligible. Things like "the 5 was only a tenth of a point from being a 4 when he was a 3, so it's really like he only moved up one rank." Well sure, but at any rate he moved up two spots. On top of that some of their players were obviously underranked. I'm not a sore loser saying that, I've played these a lot and have seen people underranked before and you just deal with it. But this was to a rediculous extent. They had a 4 that was up there friday night gambling on the big tables with some of Montgomery's yop players. Another 4 on their team I chatted with said he spots this other guy the 7 and the 8 when they gamble! I'm a pretty good 6, and I don't spot the 7 and the 8 to anyone, forget the fact of a SL4 giving that much weight. Even reguardless of that, you see that every tournament. The main problem was that one team was told they'd forfeit because of their SL increase, but this other team had the same jump (or the way I see it, the underranked players were actually being found by the system) and were allowed to play on without even being watched.

Well, obviously they waxed us. I pulled out the only win of the match, and they still finished us off in only four matches. They were a fun team and I liked all their players, actually. But we've played in these so many times and have lost with no quarrels. When we're beat we know we're beat, and have never complained in the past even when something didn't seem right. But this time there are so many little things that went along with it that I just can't accept it. I know there's even a few things I'm forgetting to mention right now, but I think I got most of the stuff covered.

So what do y'all think? Was my team (and in turn obviously many other teams) jipped this weekend? Or are we just blinded by the fact of losing and possibly overreacting to the whole thing?

We plan on setting up a meeting with the LO's tomorrow before our league match to discuss it all a little more when there are less emotions involved. We did stay cool after the loss, in fact the team that beat us said we had the best sportsmanship they've ever seen! But the more it sets the more frustrated me and my teammated are getting. So I'd love to get some outside thoughts from ya'll on here and see what you think about the situation, and also what the proper course of action may be. I'm thinking of emailing the national office, but I think I'll wait until after talking to the LO's again. But after that I don't know what to do (if anything).

Y'alls thoughts are appreciated, and sorry for such a long and probably sloppy post! Hope everyone is doing well and look forward to seeing you guys at the CCB tourney!

Sack

randyg
06-19-2006, 04:32 PM
In three easy letters: APA

dg-in-centralpa
06-19-2006, 05:39 PM
When you have an LO, it really screws things up. The league I play in, is not affiliated with BCA or APA. We wrote our own rules and by-laws. No money going to a LO, it all comes back to the players. No handicaps - we play straight up. We don't go to regionals,states, or nationals, or playoffs. It entices everyone to play their best. Where you end up at the end of the season is final. No sandbags. My Thursday league was with the Valley league, but we dropped out of that and it's similar to my other league except this has handicaps. Start your own league if things get to bad.

DG

allstar
06-19-2006, 08:07 PM
Have been involved with the apa less than a year. They can screw up a wet dream. Recently played in a top shooter contest. I was forced to play on a table whose rails were like a trampoline. We lagged for the break and my cue ball went up and down the table 3 times. I am a seven who played like a 5 on that table and lost. My next league will be the bca.

sack316
06-19-2006, 09:24 PM
Thanks for the responses thus far guys. And don't get me wrong, a few of us have actually been tinkering with the idea of starting something ourselves.

There's a lot that can happen, but mainly right now we are trying to resolve this issue right now, since we feel we are owed this trip to Vegas right now. It's only one day later, and I already know of one Monday team that went ahead and just dropped out after that stuff, and another team is sounding like it probably will too.

We're meeting with the LO Tuesday night before our match, and giving a chance for either a good explanation or something to make us happy. Guess I'll take that as it goes, and then work from there.

Thanks for the thoughts so far, and please keep 'em coming.

Sack

Deeman3
06-20-2006, 05:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr> Thanks for the responses thus far guys. And don't get me wrong, a few of us have actually been tinkering with the idea of starting something ourselves.

There's a lot that can happen, but mainly right now we are trying to resolve this issue right now, since we feel we are owed this trip to Vegas right now. It's only one day later, and I already know of one Monday team that went ahead and just dropped out after that stuff, and another team is sounding like it probably will too.

We're meeting with the LO Tuesday night before our match, and giving a chance for either a good explanation or something to make us happy. Guess I'll take that as it goes, and then work from there.

Thanks for the thoughts so far, and please keep 'em coming.

Sack <hr /></blockquote>

Sack,

As you know, I probably know all the elite players from Auburn and if I know there names, I can give you pretty good ratings on them. Cathy knows their skill level for the most part, as she played on my team there two years or three years ago, but might not let you know their true speed.

I won't play APA so if you do create your own league, it might be worth our time to drive up once a week. Don't get me wrong, I like Cathy, she is a good player but there never has been any fairness in that league.

As far as Auburn goes, there should be enough players to have their own city tournament but, like you, many of them have become discouraged with the league and it may now be much smaller. Now, it you don't know, Little David used to be in that league (gave Cliff Joyner all he wanted in one pocket, several times), Guido, me, John Chin, Marcus, Papa Snurf, etc. These are players that normally wear out the Montgomery crowd.

My suggestion is that you discuss this with Cathy but if you don't get it resolved, start your own league. BCA would be marginally better but I don't think it has any foothold in the area. Let me know what bar or club you guys played against even if you have to PM me.

Later,

Deeman

caedos
06-20-2006, 08:00 AM
That's exactly the reason(s) that I haven't played in the APA. I've played BCA and VNEA, an unsanctioned handicap, and an in-house league over the years. My biggest issue with APA is the fact that while they may legitimately go to lengths to level the competition, the system is designed to fail at a few crucial points. I would be livid if I made it to nationals and then got flagged and shut down with handicaps changing in the middle of the tourney or a match... if that happens. At least in the BCA I can qualify with my eight weeks and go play nationals without fear of getting beat by the administration. It seems to me that an SL 3 in one region could be the same as an SL 5 in another, in which case one player has an advantage over the other that has nothing to do with skill. So the system tries to get them to match during the course of the tournament and maybe one gets DQ'd by the change. I quit handicap systems several years ago because I want to play the game and not the points or the system; just rules that both must abide by. Steaks and eggs (wins and losses)!

I am sorry for your frustrations, and how much that must stink. Just remember that every minute of your life is one you can't get back. What are you getting in return?


Good luck!



Carl

Bumps
06-20-2006, 10:23 AM
Sack,
Sorry about your problems. I wouldn't play in apa if they paid me. The more I see/hear, it really sucks. I'm one of those who played in in-house leagues where we made our own stipulations, rules, etc. Played in three, IIRC, and no problems. So many weeks of 8 ball, 9 ball and straight pool, all in one session. Handicapped, too.

Scott Lee
06-20-2006, 11:05 AM
sack316...It's too bad that all you got was negative comments. The APA is not all bad, and not all APA leagues, and league operators are crooked...although it appears that in your case, it may be true. I would definitely contact the national office. There are many well-run APA leagues around the country, and thousands of happy, satified league players. Sadly, it seems like not in your area. I agree with what others said, that hopefully you can start up something else...independent or affiliated (BCA)...to keep players in your area happily playing league pool. The only problem with independent leagues, is that there's no national tournament to go to. Best of luck to you.

Scott Lee

sack316
06-20-2006, 12:22 PM
hey all, thanks again for the thoughts!

Deeman, I don't remember the names of anyone from that one team, but I'll find out for ya and let ya know and see if any of them ring a bell.

Also I hope I didn't give the wrong impression about my feelings on the APA as a whole. I've actually enjoyed the league for the many years I've been playing in it now... even for it's flaws. But then again I really don't have anything else to compare it to around here. I just don't want my personal experience from this one weekend to give anyone a negative view of it as a national organization.

I've had tons of phone calls these last two days, and I've heard theories all the way from a money smuggling ring (the league is bigger this year, but actually is presenting one less slot overall to Vegas between 8 and 9 ball teams), to theories about setting it up for an Auburn team to win to promote the league in that struggling area (since the same LO's own that area along with Montgomery).

Perosnally I am not going to pass off any opinion on any of those such theories. As Deeman knows, I'm good friends with the LO's and have been for a number of years now. I'm not looking to trash them or the way they run the league by any means at this point. We have our meeting in a few hours, and we've contacted several other teams/ captains that were at the tournament to be there. I'll give a fair chance to listen to whatever is said, but we've already told everyone that it will take a lot to satisfy us at this point. Hopefully some kind of understanding can be reached at the very least.

I'll let y'all know tonight or tomorrow how it went.

Sack

dg-in-centralpa
06-20-2006, 01:28 PM
Scott,
Not sure about anyone else, but with the two leagues I play in, both independents and about 100 people in each, no one cares that there is no regionals,states, or nationals. It's all about the money.

DG

poolhalljunky00
06-20-2006, 02:05 PM
Hi Sack,

I am new to this site so please be patient with me (everyone). I am actually a Realtor in Lexington but also an APA leauge operator. My girfriend and I have only been running it for the past 6 mos. or so. I briefly looked over the other posts from everyone else. The APA is by far not perfect but when ran correctly can be a fun and challenging leauge for all levels. However it sounds to me like you have every right to be disconcerted over the events of the past LTC. We run a very small leauge here in Lexington. Here is a story of my own, I will try to condense it. We had a team that was playing in the LTC with a combined skill level that with any combination would be at least 23. So in other words if any one on the team moved up they would not be able to play all 5 matches. In between rounds of our LTC one player did in fact move up and they could not field another player, per the rules, before the next match so they ended up losing. Before this team even gave us the courtesy of explianing it to them they went ahead and called the APA office. The home office reinforced our ruling. I don't want step on your LO's toes so I won't go to much further but as ab APA member you and all your team mates have every right to a fair shake. Thanks for the chance to talk.

By the way does anyone out there have any knowledge about Meucci originals, specifically the "gambler"

Deeman3
06-20-2006, 02:21 PM
Jonathon,

I have a few Gamblers and am very familiar with Meucci products, although not a fan. What do you need?

Deeman

cycopath
06-22-2006, 09:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr>...they decided to give all the Auburn teams a bye through the first round...<hr /></blockquote>

My LO and I just had a conversation about this last weekend during our LTC's. He pulled three teams out of a hat as wild card draws to fill the board. I expressed my confusion as to why 3 teams that couldn't even qualify during the previous three sessions be allowed to play in the LTC. A couple of these teams actually put out a few really good teams.

He explained that the reason he did the wild card draw was to prevent a team (or teams) getting a 'bye' in the first round. With a 'bye' a team going throught the winner bracket has to only win 3 matches for the cheese.

Made sense to me. Actually even more so now that I've read your post sack316. Sorry 'bout the unfair conditions.

Just regular play with the increased pressure in the big tournament is a lot to overcome, much less adding in a few questionable actions.

kathy468
06-24-2006, 06:15 AM
The board is printed online. Almost every single team in the event had a BYE the first round.

kathy468
06-24-2006, 08:29 AM
Sack,
I hope the meeting helped. Some of the topics here were not brought up in the meeting so I will clear them up. League fees are combined. Team counts are combined which is the determining factor on the number of slots we get for NTC) We have had to beg for a third slot in 9-Ball every year, and this is the first time they did not give an extra one to us. The name "City" is something we came up with when we first started out. Not every area calls it that. Little David "mophead" played briefly in the league as a 9 two years ago. The tournament board was drawn randomly. There were a total of 28 BYEs in the first round. The few teams from Auburn that came , yes may have had a BYE the first round but it was not done deliberately. What was done deliberately is the scheduling of their first match time for Saturday morning instead of Friday night (for hotel purposes) The board online shows this. Not everyone had to play Friday night including a lot of Montgomery teams. There are just not enough tables for everyone play their first round at the same time. I Hope this helps clear up everything not discussed in the meeting.

Sincerely,
Kathy


<font color="green"> </font color>

sack316
06-24-2006, 02:34 PM
Kathy,
Just thought I'd respond to ya on here real quick:

Yes the meeting did help some, and thank you so much for meeting with us on Tuesday. I'm sorry it wound up getting a bit unorganized with everybody jumping in with questions rather than just letting you say your piece. But it was as we figured it would be, and we do appreciate you taking the time to come see us.

I understand what you are saying about the teams being combined, and about how that determines the slots to Vegas, ETC. But on Tuesday when I asked you did tell me we had the same number of slots overall. I'm assuming one of those went to ladies league, but (and I may be mistaken here) I think you did say they were somewhat their own entity. Either way, all you have is X number of slots, and that's OK.

I'm not sure what Little David had to do with it. Maybe you were starting to say something and then never finished the thought?

I'm sure the board was drawn randomly, but on Friday when we were chatting you told me you gave the Auburn teams a first round bye. Yes the majority of teams did not have to play on Friday, so as I originally said that wasn't really a big deal. The only reason I even mentioned that was because you had told me off the bat that YOU gave them that bye on the first night.

Anyway, just thought I'd respond to your post for ya. I know you've heard and taken a lot of crap this week from many teams for many different reasons, and I'm sorry for that. I can't speak for all the other teams/players, but as far as my team goes, are we satisfied? To be honest not really. We still feel there was just TOO many things that just didn't seem right. That, I suppose, is evident by the sheer number of players and teams that did have issues with things. But we understand it simply is what it is, and that there is nothing that can be done about it. But thanks for taking the time to try to smooth things over.

Sack

Deeman3
06-26-2006, 12:56 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sack316:</font><hr>I'm not sure what Little David had to do with it. Maybe you were starting to say something and then never finished the thought?

Sack <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

I just think Kathy was referring to the statement that Little David played in the APA. Don't know why she mentioned it as it just confirmed what I said. Hey, Sack, let me know if you do an independent league....

Deeman </font color>

sack316
06-26-2006, 02:44 PM
Deeman, sent you a PM

sofy60
06-26-2006, 03:56 PM
A couple of really bad players who arent even players just won our apa tournament. No skills and no real interest in pool but they got round trip airfare and hotels to vegas.

must be nice to somehow be bad enough to get that prize.

couldnt run three balls in a row in nine ball for her life but gets to hit the vegas strip.. unreal.. APA RULES

Scott Lee
06-27-2006, 09:31 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> A couple of really bad players who arent even players just won our apa tournament. No skills and no real interest in pool but they got round trip airfare and hotels to vegas.

must be nice to somehow be bad enough to get that prize.

couldnt run three balls in a row in nine ball for her life but gets to hit the vegas strip.. unreal.. APA RULES <hr /></blockquote>

You just don't get it! This is what the APA is all about!
I bet those people come back from Vegas with a MUCH higher interest in pool, and a desire to improve as players!

Scott Lee