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View Full Version : The stuck up IPT.....



ryushen21
06-25-2006, 06:59 PM
I've been watching the IPT king of the hill series on OLN and i can't help the fact that i am getting pretty sick and tired of listening to these commentators saying how great they are and how they are so much better than everyone else. So this just just brings up some questions for me....

1. Why the "slow nap cloth" ? I don't see how that makes that big of a difference. These are professional players and no matter what they are going to be able to adjust to table speed. So why insist on that vs. simonis which has been the recent standard?

2. Is 8-ball really such a better game? I don't think it's the case but these IPT people are talking about 9-ball like only no-talent hacks play it. I think that both games have their appeals and both require a lot of skill. If they really want to get a "skill game" they should be playing One Pocket.

It just really gets to me that these guys (the commentators, especially Sigel), seem to the think that they are so much better and above everyone else in the pool world. Honestly, if i ever meet any of those guys in person, i'll punch em right in the face.

It just seems to me that they broadcast a negative image on what pool has been doing for the last 10 years or so. And I don't think that they have any grounds to do that. So they can all kiss my a$$.

ANGEBONES
06-25-2006, 07:10 PM
Yeah its a little annoying, and I hate how they cut out most of the pool, but I am waiting for the Hall of Famer round, because I want to see Mike Massey, and I'm waiting to see Sigel get wiped by Efren, a humble, true, amazing player.

Yes I know that was one long run on sentence...Let me catch my breath...

ryushen21
06-25-2006, 07:29 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote ANGEBONES:</font><hr> and I hate how they cut out most of the pool<hr /></blockquote>

I think a huge part of that is that fact that 8-ball can be more time consuming. Plus they are trying to cover so many matches within one hour.

whizman
06-25-2006, 07:34 PM
i have the ipt on right now....gotta tell ya....lousy coverage, you get to see very little of the match's...also...i think sigel, certainly a great player in his time, is a terrible analyst....really bad....just one mans opinion

ANGEBONES
06-25-2006, 07:57 PM
Yeah there's a lot of bad things to say about the IPT, but it offers one thing no one else has offered: Men v. Women. Which brings me to another thing Mike Sigel kept saying. WE GET THAT THE WOMEN DONT HAVE AS OF A BREAK!!! I kinda feel like thats all he says during a Man vs. Woman match. I know its true, but he makes it seem like the girls are terrible because of it.

dg-in-centralpa
06-26-2006, 06:42 AM
I've been watching it, and my wife agrees with you. She's tired of hearing how Sigel is so great. But he was still "King" at that point until someone knocks him off. Which I'm glad happened. I think Sigel had to build up a cocky image for TV. His commentating is pitiful, nothing good to say about anyone especially the women. Oh well that's a discussion for the ages... women or men, who's better.

DG

ANGEBONES
06-26-2006, 07:02 AM
But isnt that the beuty of pool? A women can be better than a man, because its not a physical sport. And I guess your right about Sigel having to build up that cocky image. After all this is a telivision series to them. How are they going to deliver that DRAMA (c'mon, this is pool!) they promised if Sigel doesnt bad-mouth everyone and then get blown away in the end.

thecardman
06-26-2006, 07:59 AM
Before I go any further, I must state here that I have yet to see any of the IPT King of the Hill broadcasts - apparently they start here in the UK tonight.

That being said, have you all forgotten that the IPT have continually said that the "coverage" that they're going to give their tournaments will be more akin to "reality TV" than sport? That it would be more like the poker coverage that is so huge world-wide at the moment where key hands and key moments at different tables are shown instead of every ball of a certain match?

It is a simple thing to remember that pool players - the true pool fanatics and obsessives that make up the memberships of this and other forums - only make up a tiny percentage of a viewing audience. The IPT are trying to get pool to a wider audience and this seems to be the way to do it - it worked for poker!

Oh, and why 8 Ball? Because it is the one discipline that is played by more people WORLDWIDE than any other! Ask someone to play One Pocket here in Scotland and they'll look at you funny - ask them to play 8 Ball and they will probably know what you're on about. Sure, I'd love to see the discipline being Straight Pool or One Pocket but remember, this is the INTERNATIONAL Pool Tour!

Having said all that, I look forward, with an open mind, to seeing what these shows are like.

Best wishes

thecardman
/ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rich R.
06-26-2006, 08:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote thecardman:</font><hr> Before I go any further, I must state here that I have yet to see any of the IPT King of the Hill broadcasts - apparently they start here in the UK tonight.

That being said, have you all forgotten that the IPT have continually said that the "coverage" that they're going to give their tournaments will be more akin to "reality TV" than sport? That it would be more like the poker coverage that is so huge world-wide at the moment where key hands and key moments at different tables are shown instead of every ball of a certain match?

It is a simple thing to remember that pool players - the true pool fanatics and obsessives that make up the memberships of this and other forums - only make up a tiny percentage of a viewing audience. The IPT are trying to get pool to a wider audience and this seems to be the way to do it - it worked for poker!

Oh, and why 8 Ball? Because it is the one discipline that is played by more people WORLDWIDE than any other! Ask someone to play One Pocket here in Scotland and they'll look at you funny - ask them to play 8 Ball and they will probably know what you're on about. Sure, I'd love to see the discipline being Straight Pool or One Pocket but remember, this is the INTERNATIONAL Pool Tour!

Having said all that, I look forward, with an open mind, to seeing what these shows are like. <hr /></blockquote>
Peter, you will get to see exactly what you described.

Personally, I don't think the coverage is all that bad. We have to remember, they are covering a round robin tournament, with many matches, not just the final couple of matches in a normal tournament. Obviously, we are not going to get to see every single shot of every match. Hopefully, we will get a glimpse of our favorite players.

Definitely, I would like someone other than Mike S. in the booth, but again, that is the opinion of a pool player. They are trying to attract the non-player. They know we will watch no matter how bad it is. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Deeman3
06-26-2006, 08:57 AM
I think it is maybe kinda strange the way the ITP started up. An older pro playing a woman who was not on top of her game at the time to determine the King of the Hill. I don't know how the slow cloth came up but I can envision Mike Sigel saying, we need a tour with slower cloth and tighter pockets and it needs to be 8 ball. He certainly had the catbird's seat for the title. Maybe nothng wrong with that but you could have taken any one of 20 pros and given his deal and they would be sitting waiting only to have to play Efren, for a title they got pretty easily.

Maybe someone who has followed this has a better concept of it's inception and how Mike got into the cat bird's seat. Did he have previous ties with Kevin? It would have seemed a large roound robin format for the first King of the Hill would have been more appropriate. Just my two cents....

Deeman
The commentary is pretty lame....

pooltchr
06-26-2006, 09:03 AM
Dee,
Yes, Mike and Kevin had a connection before the IPT. Mike had a lot of input into the tour set-up. He and Kevin are good friends.

My concern is that after Mike loses his title, are they going to have Efrin in the booth next year????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Steve

wolfdancer
06-26-2006, 10:04 AM
I think they were hoping for a "Billie Jean King/Bobby Riggs" event....which eventually moved tennis off of PBS, and onto the major networks. Maybe Mike should have played with one foot in a bucket, like Bobby did at times
It's also a couple of steps backwards...8 ball was considered too slow to televise and 9 ball was more exciting, with it's one shot could win, element. The fast cloth did away with the problems caused by the directional nap....and aided one's stroke effectiveness...akin to using aluminum bats in baseball.
I'd agree with the poster that claims slow cloth 8 ball is a better format for attracting the "non-pool" playing audience, while 9 ball is more exciting for the dedicated player.
that said, i still don't think pool will outdraw the viewing audience for the Women's Caber toss at the Scottish Games....nor maybe the trucks towing sleds through the mud..

Rich R.
06-26-2006, 10:33 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>Maybe someone who has followed this has a better concept of it's inception and how Mike got into the cat bird's seat. Did he have previous ties with Kevin? It would have seemed a large roound robin format for the first King of the Hill would have been more appropriate. Just my two cents.... <hr /></blockquote>
It has been no secret, from the beginning, that KT and Mike are good friends. Mike had a lot of input into how the IPT was set up and the playing conditions.

I believe the first King/Queen match up was strictly for publicity and it was a given that Mike would beat Loree Jon. The real King got crowned after the larger tournament.

If nothing else, KT has supplemented Mike's retirement. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

ryushen21
06-26-2006, 12:09 PM
I can understand the argument that they are trying to get pool to a wider audience around the world. And i am all for promoting the game of pool all over the world. And i even appreciate the fact that 8 ball is the most widely played game worldwide.

My problem is with promoting the IPT as the greatest thing ever at the expense of everything that has happened up until its inception. The IPT commentators make it sound as though 9-ball is a game of total luck and requires no skill. They are placing themselves up on the high and mighty pedastal a nd they are gonna get knocked down. The simple thing is that pros will go where the money is.

Like I said, i am all for the promotion of pool worldwide and it would be great to see pool on the major networks. The IPT won't do it though. I just don't want to see one tour bashing everything that earlier established tours have been doing.

Deeman3
06-26-2006, 12:50 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Dee,

My concern is that after Mike loses his title, are they going to have Efrin in the booth next year????? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Steve,

You mean we're gonna hear a lot of "Billiards bean berry, berry good to me...." </font color>

Deeman
JK, Efrin deserves the slot...

Scott Lee
06-26-2006, 02:09 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Did he have previous ties with Kevin?

Deeman
<hr /></blockquote>

Hey Dee...remember when Sigel's cues were being sold "on the cheap" a few years ago? That was KT, who bought them all, to help Mike out financially...and then dumped them on eBay, when nobody would pay Sigel's outrageous cues prices.
LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

Ralph S.
06-26-2006, 03:25 PM
Just to let you know, Siegel didn't have to build that image up for television. He really is that arrogant and narcissistic in real life. I have seen and heard with my own eyes and ears.

sofy60
06-26-2006, 03:45 PM
Most of you are missing the point of the show.. Its king of the hill and Mike Sigel is the King and he is the announcer who is talking trash.. That is by design and totally intentional. Hes not really a jerk like that hes just being hard on them for ratings and intimidation.


Mike Sigel is better than everyone else. Thats why hes king of the hill .

1. Why the "slow nap cloth" ? I don't see how that makes that big of a difference.

This tour and tournament has been done to be the same tables and the same game that most Americans play. No spiffy equipment.

2. Is 8-ball really such a better game?

8 ball is extremely challenging at that level. And the main reason they chose 8 ball was because everyone knows the rules and this is for the telivision general audience. Trying to revive billiards to the general public was the entire point behind the big money and prizes playing the same game everyone knows how to play. They are sticking up for the game they are playing as they are all paid to promote the tour. They are not allowed to say I like 9 ball better..


It just really gets to me that these guys (the commentators, especially Sigel), seem to the think that they are so much better and above everyone else in the pool world. Honestly, if i ever meet any of those guys in person, i'll punch em right in the face.

Ok so your a total jerk for that statement. Im sure your not backing up that mouth.

Some good questions but a total idiot.. lol

dg-in-centralpa
06-26-2006, 06:30 PM
I met and have seen Sigel in action several years ago and he is very arrogant. I think he had to do this even more for the TV.

DG

dg-in-centralpa
06-26-2006, 06:32 PM
I wondered how someone could sell Sigels $2500 cues for $300. They were nice to look at, I never tried out the playability.

DG

ryushen21
06-26-2006, 07:06 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> Most of you are missing the point of the show.. Its king of the hill and Mike Sigel is the King and he is the announcer who is talking trash.. That is by design and totally intentional. Hes not really a jerk like that hes just being hard on them for ratings and intimidation.

<font color="blue">For some reason i really doubt that. I don't doubt for a second that he has the talent. But if that was the design for the broadcast that they wanted, then they are retarded. And i really don't think that too many people at that level would be intimidated by a jackass running his mouth the way that Sigel does. </font color>

Mike Sigel is better than everyone else. Thats why hes king of the hill .

<font color="blue">Apparently he isn't. Check the results that the other people posted before. </font color>

1. Why the "slow nap cloth" ? I don't see how that makes that big of a difference.

This tour and tournament has been done to be the same tables and the same game that most Americans play. No spiffy equipment.

<font color="blue">Ok, go to your local PH and show me the tables that are 4.5" cut pockets. I haven't seen a single one in any of the rooms i go to around here. The cloth though, that i'll agree. Most rooms won't put simonis on the 8's. </font color>

2. Is 8-ball really such a better game?

8 ball is extremely challenging at that level. And the main reason they chose 8 ball was because everyone knows the rules and this is for the telivision general audience. Trying to revive billiards to the general public was the entire point behind the big money and prizes playing the same game everyone knows how to play. They are sticking up for the game they are playing as they are all paid to promote the tour. They are not allowed to say I like 9 ball better..

<font color="blue"> My problem is that they are taking away from tours that have been around much longer than they have that play a different game or under different conditions. I don't care who you are or how much they are paying, you have no right to say any thing that diminished what those players have been doing.

In all honesty, i believe that 8-ball and 9-ball are games of equal skill. obviously they both have their different requirements and skill sets, but neither is superior to the other. </font color>

It just really gets to me that these guys (the commentators, especially Sigel), seem to the think that they are so much better and above everyone else in the pool world. Honestly, if i ever meet any of those guys in person, i'll punch em right in the face.

Ok so your a total jerk for that statement. Im sure your not backing up that mouth.

<font color="blue"> Ok so, i maybe i got a little carried away with that last line. But i was rather ticked when after just listenting to Mike Sigel run his fat mouth for an hour. So maybe instead, i would give him a piece of my mind. </font color>


Some good questions but a total idiot.. lol

<font color="blue"> I don't know where you get off calling me an idiot, but if you have to resort to calling me names to make yourself feel better, then by all means go ahead. </font color>



<hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
06-27-2006, 05:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr>

Mike Sigel is better than everyone else. Thats why hes king of the hill . <font color="blue">

NO, he's not. He played one person, Lorie John, to get that title. He was a great player, I can't take that away but he did not "deserve" a free ticket to King of the Hill. </font color>

1. Why the "slow nap cloth" ? I don't see how that makes that big of a difference. <font color="blue">You play? </font color>

This tour and tournament has been done to be the same tables and the same game that most Americans play. No spiffy equipment. <font color="blue"> Most players don't play on tables with 4&amp;1/2 inch pockets. </font color>

2. Is 8-ball really such a better game?

8 ball is extremely challenging at that level. And the main reason they chose 8 ball was because everyone knows the rules and this is for the telivision general audience. Trying to revive billiards to the general public was the entire point behind the big money and prizes playing the same game everyone knows how to play. They are sticking up for the game they are playing as they are all paid to promote the tour. They are not allowed to say I like 9 ball better..


It just really gets to me that these guys (the commentators, especially Sigel), seem to the think that they are so much better and above everyone else in the pool world. Honestly, if i ever meet any of those guys in person, i'll punch em right in the face.

Ok so your a total jerk for that statement. Im sure your not backing up that mouth. <font color="blue">

You have obvioulsy not met or seen Ryushen! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif He could crush most of us. LOL</font color>

Some good questions but a total idiot.. lol <font color="blue"> Bet you go to Texas and call him an idiot.... </font color>

Deeman



<hr /></blockquote>

Deeman3
06-27-2006, 05:39 AM
Scott,

Yes, I remember that. Another time Mike had a nice cue that had diamonds studded all in it. He wanted $16K. He said, "I almost sold that cue." I asked when and to whom and he said, "About three years ago." It was nice cue but $16K!!!

It's funny, I usually like Mike's commentary but on the IPT he postures too much.

Deeman

eg8r
06-27-2006, 11:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I've been watching the IPT king of the hill series on OLN and i can't help the fact that i am getting pretty sick and tired of listening to these commentators saying how great they are and how they are so much better than everyone else. <hr /></blockquote> I might be in the minority, but I think it is hilarious. Every time Mike says he is the best or cannot be beat I chuckle a bit. During the first episode my wife asked why I was laughing the whole time. I reminded her that this tournament is over and Mike got creamed. He got beat so bad I don't think he will even watch the finale.

It makes good business sense to hype up the "king of the hill" throughout the tournament otherwise the finale will lack the excitement for the supposed "underdog". If Mike was consistently saying, week in and week out, that he did not have a chance against these young guns, then no one would care about watching the final match.

eg8r

eg8r
06-27-2006, 11:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Hes not really a jerk like that hes just being hard on them for ratings and intimidation.
<hr /></blockquote> I don't consider what he is doing on the show being a jerk, however, he does act like that in person, at least most of the times I have been around him. When he had his shop open in Winter Garden I was in there quite a bit (he was doing some work on a cue and I had bought one of his famous ebay cues) and all he could was talk about himself. When my in-laws went to him to pay for private lessons for their son, they left with the same impression. He was always nice and willing to chat, but we had to be willing to allow the discussion to migrate around him. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif No problems, it was fun listening to his stories and hanging out in his shop.

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Sigel is better than everyone else. Thats why hes king of the hill . <hr /></blockquote> This is definitely not true. First of all, he is not the king of the hill, that is Efren Reyes (but I think that was stripped away at the beginning of this year). Secondly, the only reason why he was king of the hill was the fact that his close friend decided to fund a pool tour, drop a ton of money and set up a challenge match between david and goliath. Mike was set up to be the original KOTH to get this off the ground and I believe Loree Jon Jones was compensated well for playing along.

I also think 8 ball was a good choice since appealing to pool players has never been profitable. Appealing to the masses is where the money is at and 8 ball is what they play when they are out drinking with their buddies. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
06-27-2006, 11:52 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I don't think the coverage is all that bad. <hr /></blockquote> You will get a kick out of this, I agree. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif My wife will even sit through the 35 minutes (we Tivo and then skip the hundreds of commercials) and watch it with me. I think they have done a great job appealing to non-players, but the ratings will have the last word.

The shows to me more closely resemble Baseball Tonight (on ESPN) as far as the coverage is concerned. You get to see a little of each match and they move on to the next one. As a fan of pool, I enjoy watching the show, as a pool player I would rather watch the whole match. No one will ever please everyone. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
06-27-2006, 11:55 AM
That was KT? Mike was soooo pissed about them being for sale that he told me he would not work on mine if anything happened to it. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Nothing like money to cause those ill-feelings to slip away. I even heard he wanted to sue the guy.

eg8r

Scott Lee
06-27-2006, 12:00 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> Mike was set up to be the original KOTH to get this off the ground and I believe Loree Jon Jones was compensated well for playing along.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Ed...Yep! Loree Jon got paid $75K to finish SECOND! LOL Not too shabby! Wonder if that makes her Queen of the Hill? LOL It certainly made her Queen of the CASH! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott

ryushen21
06-27-2006, 07:51 PM
Deeman,

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Everyone i play with knows that i can talk a lot of smack at times, but i always back it up on the table.

My game has been pretty good these days and it's only gonna get better after i go to pool school with Randy G. in a few weeks.

Deeman3
06-28-2006, 05:41 AM
Yes, you'll really benefit from your time with Randy and the gang. I can't wait to get back out to Texas and see you guys again.

Deeman

Gayle in MD
06-28-2006, 06:10 AM
How bout Johnny Archer, talk about denial, Karen kicked his arse, than he tried to say he just didn't take her seriously enough because she was a women, like that was the only reason why she beat him! She out-played him, pure and simple!

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
06-28-2006, 06:27 AM
Yeah! I thought that was a chicken s**t reply. When you get beat, give the other player credit, take it like a man.

Archer is not the first top player Karen has smacked down.

Deeman

pooltchr
06-28-2006, 06:32 AM
Dee,
You should think about coming to Charlotte this fall. Randy and company are coming in October to offer both the advanced and expert classes here. It's going to be a ball. We already have several that have signed up for both classes. Would love to see you in one.
Steve

ryushen21
06-28-2006, 02:26 PM
I totally agree. Bot of them are great players but Karen just outplayed him like you said. I think that he should have just shaken her hand and complimented her on great playing.

But at the same time, i think that it is somewhat fair to say that the guys did underestimate the ladies. But there is absolutely no doubt that the women have amazing skill on the table.

jjinfla
06-28-2006, 07:41 PM
Keep in mind that it is showtime.

At least Mike has you all talking about him and the IPT and that is why he is there.

Why not Simonis? Most likely KT didn't get a good deal from them.

At least the IPT is doing things differently trying to find a formula that will work, ie, make money for KT and the players. You all know that the tried and true methods of the past sure were not making any money for the players.

And the best part of the IPT is how much money the players will make.

Jake

onepocketfanatic
06-28-2006, 08:33 PM
The way I see it, they are just trying to promote a product. Though I might not agree with the way they are going about it, it is a business.
I too wish they would show more of the matches and talk less bull sh*t. I get kind of bored listening to same old sh*t. Thank God for TVO.....fast forward is wonderful!

eg8r
06-29-2006, 03:41 AM
No kidding. I would't mind a paid trip to Vegas to lose to Sigel for 75k. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
06-29-2006, 03:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
How bout Johnny Archer, talk about denial, Karen kicked his arse, than he tried to say he just didn't take her seriously enough because she was a women, like that was the only reason why she beat him! She out-played him, pure and simple!
<hr /></blockquote> Translation of Gayle's post...Archer = misogynist. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

She kicked his butt and he knew it.

eg8r

DickLeonard
06-29-2006, 05:49 AM
Eg8r I am going to need directions to that dictionary. Karen has been playing in the Joss tour since she arrived in this country so there are a lot of men out there with that same disease.####

eg8r
06-29-2006, 11:27 AM
You know the way. Just follow Gayle's posts and her dissection of the replies on this board.

eg8r

SPetty
06-29-2006, 02:32 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I can't wait to get back out to Texas and see you guys again.<hr /></blockquote>I've got a place you can stay if you ever make it back this way. Maybe we could even get a few folks together to play some pool... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Barbara
06-29-2006, 02:41 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote SPetty:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> I can't wait to get back out to Texas and see you guys again.<hr /></blockquote>I've got a place you can stay if you ever make it back this way. Maybe we could even get a few folks together to play some pool... /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif <hr /></blockquote>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Barbara

ryushen21
06-29-2006, 03:45 PM
Yeah....It seems like it has been forever since the last PPPH get together.

whizman
06-29-2006, 07:03 PM
i guess after watching the ipt match's and reading all the comments here, it just reafirms what i have always said.....it doesn't matter what the question is...the answer is always MONEY.....and ya know with all it's faults, thie ipt has brought alot of money to players who deserve it...compared to other games, pool has been short sheeted money wise for a long time....so just like politics, you have to ignore just about everything because it's all designed to build the MONEY...rack em up

pageman99
07-01-2006, 03:36 AM
Hmm... First time poster here.

Actually, I really haven't played the game in years, though I go back quite a ways and can tell a few stories.

I'm posting because I happened to catch the IPT coverage on OLN. The fact that I'm on this site says that the coverage is at least a little bit effective.

I really don't see much chance the IPT will be successful, because KT is full of it. Anybody that calls himself a billionaire... Ah never mind. It's the nature of the game to attract hustlers.

I was hoping to see the women play the men and get a handle on how they would stack up. Sigel hasn't changed much, his schtick is still the same. And I didn't have much respect for him in the old days... he always moved the cue ball too much. Haven't seen him lately, but I guarantee that Reyes will kill him. Reyes is probably the best pure player of the last 30 years.

And before you start flaming me, realize I've played at least 6 of those I saw listed in the brackets. Massey once ran 158 balls on me WARMING UP for a tournament. And straight pool wasn't his best game IMHO.

I'm not a big 8-ball fan, (9-ball was my game) and Simonis wasn't invented when I was in my heyday. It does make the game much easier. And drop pockets (meaning wiiide) makes the game way too easy. Don't believe me, go play some snooker. I loved ring games with really tight pockets. Triple shimmed preferably. Any good player will tell you that. A great equalizer, the talent will rise too the top in any game of over 6 hours.

Unfortunately, tight pockets don't play well on TV.

I had to laugh at Sigel's comments about players needing to work out and get in shape. Doh, I don't think so. Any true player knows that if there's money, and a lot of it, it takes time to get it, so 48 hour marathons weren't unusual. (Lucky there were/are no blood tests like in football. But let's not go there.) The IPT is only talking 10 hours. And much less for Mr. Sigel, in the IPT format.

BTW, the women ARE good players these days. In my day (60's and 70's), there wasn't a woman in the world I couldn't give the 6 ball to, and that was any day, not just my good days. And Sigel is right about the break, nothing sexist, it's hard to make up a deficit by running rack after rack if you can't make one on the break.

It always griped me to see the fairer sex in the ESPN tourneys use big pockets and fast Simonis and the Sardo to just poke a ball off the rack into the corner. Sheesh! But I understand, it makes for good TV. And that's what the game needs.

Sorry about the long post, been awhile since I've had an outlet... 8-). And if you have questions about any of the players from the 50's through 70's, I'll be glad to answer them.

And all you folks who take lessons, forget it, just play, preferably for a few bucks, and with someone who's better. Get some weight to make the game fair, then go for it. You'll be surprised what you can learn...

Besides, learning to make the game right, before you even take your cue out of the case, is probably the best thing this painted lady of a game can teach anyone about life.

Scott Lee
07-01-2006, 11:25 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pageman99:</font><hr> Sigel is right about the break, nothing sexist, it's hard to make up a deficit by running rack after rack if you can't make one on the break.





And all you folks who take lessons, forget it, just play, preferably for a few bucks, and with someone who's better. Get some weight to make the game fair, then go for it. You'll be surprised what you can learn...

Besides, learning to make the game right, before you even take your cue out of the case, is probably the best thing this painted lady of a game can teach anyone about life.


<hr /></blockquote>

Nice post...but you're off base on a couple of things. First, I don't care if you are a former world champion...NOBODY makes a ball on the break every time...and for the record, tight pockets make it MORE difficult to make something on the break, not easier (I like playing tight pocket tables better too, so we agree there)! Accustats has kept track for over 30 yrs, and the percentages are pretty accurate over the long term.

Secondly, who are you to tell people not to take lessons?
The majority of people out there, who want to improve their pool game, have no idea what a quality stroke even is, let alone how to put one together, with a repeatable process to set up and deliver that quality stroke, over and over. Good instruction is the cornerstone for beginning that process, as well as continuing education, to improve after you've figured some things out. You can "just play", as you say, for 50 years, and never really get any better, gambling or not. The one thing gambling is good for, is teaching someone to keep emotionally cool, in the face of adversity. However, tournament play can accomplish the same thing.

Glad to have you here, and we all look forward to some stories from you...

Scott Lee

randyg
07-01-2006, 12:01 PM
Pageman99: Spoken like a true old timer. Thank God for the new thinking player....SPf=randyg

ras314
07-01-2006, 01:36 PM
Hey Scott

Trouble with instructors being so available these days is they cut a link or two out of the food chain. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I actually spent much time learning how to imitate a lousy stroke and still make a ball once in a while, nowadays everywhere I go even the kids have a pretty good looking stroke. Seems as if they didn't go through the same "paying their dues" process a lot of older players did.

Makes me suspect anybody not realizing it is much cheaper and faster to learn paying by the hour for lessons rather than by the game hasn't been around the younger or newer players much lately.

pageman99
07-01-2006, 11:30 PM
&gt;Nice post...but you're off base on a couple of things. First, I don't care if you are a former world champion...NOBODY makes a ball on the break every time...and for the record, tight pockets make it MORE difficult to make something on the break, not easier (I like playing tight pocket tables better too, so we agree there)! Accustats has kept track for over 30 yrs, and the percentages are pretty accurate over the long term.&lt;

Of course you can't make a ball every time on the break, but it's funny how often it happens when the adrenaline flows. Accustats are, of course, accurate, but are, as you say, good over the long term. They say nothing about what happens when you get in the "zone".



&gt;Secondly, who are you to tell people not to take lessons?&lt;

I take it you give lessons? No offense intended. I simply firmly believe pool is one of the easiest "athletic" sports to learn the fundamentals. Much more so than golf for example. The hardest part of pool is learning 3 things, again IMHO. 1. How to "see" the patterns. 2. How to "make the game" right, that is, fair handicapping. 3. How to channel the adrenaline under the pressure.

Number 1 is learnable, but very difficult to teach, especially to beginners. Number 2 is a matter of experience, and teachers rarely go there anyway. Number 3 is a matter of experience and not really teachable, though sports psychologists would have us think differently.

&gt;The majority of people out there, who want to improve their pool game, have no idea what a quality stroke even is, let alone how to put one together, with a repeatable process to set up and deliver that quality stroke, over and over. Good instruction is the cornerstone for beginning that process, as well as continuing education, to improve after you've figured some things out. You can "just play", as you say, for 50 years, and never really get any better, gambling or not. The one thing gambling is good for, is teaching someone to keep emotionally cool, in the face of adversity. However, tournament play can accomplish the same thing.&lt;

Tournament play cannot teach the same thing. It can teach you to play well in tournaments, but that's a different thing entirely and really doesn't transfer well, again, IMHO, to learning life's lessons.

As far as the rest of your comments on learning the game, I think it's nonsense, so lets just agree to disagree. I learned the fundamentals out of books at the age of 14. The rest was close observation of good players, mixed with good old blood, sweat and tears, combined with a dollop of lucky genes having to do with mental makeup and eye-hand coordination.

Let me share a small story. I was playing a ring game with six exceptionally good players who shall remain nameless, but their names are recognizable, when the topic of how long it takes to master the game came up.

A couple of them said they played really good pool within 2 years of taking it up. But after some give and take it was agreed that to "truly master" the game takes seven years, and you have to hit 2 million balls, as many as possible in pressure situations. We agreed this applies to any stick and ball sport. It's simply how long it takes for the stick and balls to become "an unconcious extension of the body".

There ain't no shortcuts.



&gt;Glad to have you here, and we all look forward to some stories from you...&lt;

I rarely tell stories, simply because so many of them seem so hard to believe and this game has its share of tellers of tall tales. But I'm sure some stories will inevitably come out.

Speaking of the break and getting into the zone, I wonder what the record for the number of consective racks run in 9 ball happens to be.

And I don't care if the record is official or anecdotal.

Anybody have stories to share?????

Maybe someone can start a thread on this????

pooltchr
07-02-2006, 06:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pageman99:</font><hr> I simply firmly believe pool is one of the easiest "athletic" sports to learn the fundamentals.
<font color="red"> I disagree. It may be easy to learn to hit balls, but to develop the proper fundamentals is much easier with the help of an instructor than it is to try and do it on your own. A good instructor knows how to observe and spot any flaws in your mechanics that might be holding you back. That is very difficult to do on your own. </font color> Much more so than golf for example. The hardest part of pool is learning 3 things, again IMHO. 1. How to "see" the patterns. <font color="red"> Seeing patterns is important, but if you can't deliver the cue ball as intended, it won't do you much good. </font color> 2. How to "make the game" right, that is, fair handicapping. <font color="red"> This is only important if you plan on gambling. The majority of players are more social and league players. Matching up doesn't mean anything to them. Being able to win on league night does. </font color> 3. How to channel the adrenaline under the pressure. <font color="red"> There are some very good ways to address this with students of the game....even the beginners. </font color>

As far as the rest of your comments on learning the game, I think it's nonsense, so lets just agree to disagree. <font color="red"> Sorry, but I have to agree with Scott. The absolute best way to learn fundamentals is with the help of an instructor. Not saying it can't be done on your own, but an instructor can greatly shorten the learning curve. </font color> I learned the fundamentals out of books at the age of 14. The rest was close observation of good players, mixed with good old blood, sweat and tears, combined with a dollop of lucky genes having to do with mental makeup and eye-hand coordination. <font color="red"> Not everyone is as blessed as you. Most need some help to learn these things. </font color>

Let me share a small story. I was playing a ring game with six exceptionally good players who shall remain nameless, but their names are recognizable, when the topic of how long it takes to master the game came up.

A couple of them said they played really good pool within 2 years of taking it up. But after some give and take it was agreed that to "truly master" the game takes seven years, and you have to hit 2 million balls, as many as possible in pressure situations. We agreed this applies to any stick and ball sport. It's simply how long it takes for the stick and balls to become "an unconcious extension of the body".

There ain't no shortcuts.
<font color="red"> I don't think anyone ever masters this game. I dare say you could ask Archer, Reyes, Strickland or any of the best players in the world, and they would most certainly tell you they still could be better than they are. It's what keeps us working at it. Continuous improvement! </font color>



<hr /></blockquote>

<font color="red"> I had over 30 years experience at the game before I ever took a lesson. After 3 days with a couple of master instructors, my only question was why I waited so long to take advantage of a professional instructor.
Steve </font color>

071838
07-02-2006, 08:29 AM
Simonis has been around for close to 400 years. Exactly when was your heyday? GF

Fran Crimi
07-02-2006, 09:32 AM
I cut my teeth on the game in the 70's and what I saw in pool rooms wasn't a pretty sight. People we were calling 'champions' were stepping out of the mens rooms with white powder stuck to their nostrils, before, during and after their matches. If there was a marathon match going on, then someone in the place was holding the drugs.

Who was over in a corner popping speed and who was over in the other corner taking ludes to calm his nerves...

How many of those champions would have been able to play those marathon matches if it wasn't for the drugs? How many of them would have had the nerve to compete in tournaments if it wasn't for the drugs? How many of them would have been as good as they became if it wasn't for the drugs?

And you're knocking teaching pool? As if the old way was better? Hell...Back in the 70's I was grateful just to find someone who could help me with my game who was clean or sober, and who didn't ask me to sleep with them after the third lesson.

Yeah, maybe you could have given me the 6 ball back then, but at least I didn't sell my soul.

Fran

DickLeonard
07-02-2006, 10:31 AM
Pageman I have posted about Andy Bakerian and his unbelieveable break. I racked nineballs for 3+hours for him trying to learn his secret of breaking. He hadn't played in 5 years.

The least balls he put in was 2 and the most was 6 balls. In his life he had put all nine balls and twice he put 7 of 9. How he did it I call the Eighth Wonder of the World. Slight of build, no violent motion but when the cueball hit the rack it was as if a bomb went off.

I heard of Jimmy Moore running 17 racks of nineball for 100 a game. The downside was that he just got even.####

DickLeonard
07-02-2006, 10:41 AM
Fran I would say I would play them if we took a drug test before and after. Fran and it's nice to be able to look in the Mirror.####

TennesseeJoe
07-03-2006, 10:28 AM
Pageman99 said:

"BTW, the women ARE good players these days. In my day (60's and 70's), there wasn't a woman in the world I couldn't give the 6 ball to, and that was any day, not just my good days. And Sigel is right about the break, nothing sexist, it's hard to make up a deficit by running rack after rack if you can't make one on the break."



I would have bet on Jean Balukas with the 6 ball back in your day.

wildwilly
07-05-2006, 08:26 AM
Sigel needs a punch in the face. I really wish they showed all the matches /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Gayle in MD
07-05-2006, 10:31 AM
Dick,
Only one way to deal with Ed's idiotic posts...total ignore!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I think Archer's remarks were typical of a guy who's a poor loser. I've heard similar remarks from him after losing to men, also. This time, he definately added some sexist language, which only made him look even worse, IMO.

I watched Archer play against Charlie Williams in Valley Forge a few years back, and at the end of the long long match, on the last most important shot, two balls before the nine ball, he got all the way down, took pre shot storkes, and back up, back down on the shot, more storkes, back up, more than 15 times, and mid way through, left the table to go over and get chalk out of his bag, when there were three pieces on the table already! Apparently, there was no shot clock! Would you call this sharking?

Do you think the women would have played better against the men in a nine ball match up? Is it easier to make a ball on the break when playing nine ball? Seems like it to me.

I wish they would show more shooting, less egomania! I was disappointed overall that the format didn't include more of the games, and more of the details of the winners at various levels of the tournament.

Even though the producers of pool matches seem to favor the flare for the dramatics between the contenders, with all that "I'm hungrier than she is, and "I'm the King" BS, I think that approach takes away from the image of pool in general. Just imagine golfers taking part in such foolishness! /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif Never happen! I'd prefer seeing more serious, professional, and informational commentation.

Love,
Gayle.. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Gayle in MD
07-05-2006, 10:38 AM
Agreed, I think it would be interesting to see more unisex matches on TV. Although, overall, I usually enjoy the women's matches the most. Many of the televised men's matches, seem to be Sudden Death Seven Ball, which I find boring!

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
07-05-2006, 10:52 AM
More matches, less BS! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in Md.

ryushen21
07-05-2006, 06:28 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pageman99:</font><hr>
And all you folks who take lessons, forget it, just play, preferably for a few bucks, and with someone who's better. Get some weight to make the game fair, then go for it. You'll be surprised what you can learn...



<hr /></blockquote>


Ok, i'll go ahead and disagree with you here too. I was stuck at one level of performance for a very long time. i was an ok player, skimmed a few bucks here and there and an occasional trophy.

Took my first lesson and my performance jumped immediately. And my performance continued to increase as i was able to maintain a higher and higher stroke efficiency. Don't get me wrong, i have played and gambled as well and there are definitely things to be learned from that. There are some amazing shot makers out there and you can learn from watching them. Just not with the quality and ability that you can get from a professional, certified instructor.

I'm headed to pool school in a few weeks and can't wait to see what those guys are gonna be able to do for my game.

Chopstick
07-06-2006, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Hell...Back in the 70's I was grateful just to find someone who could help me with my game who was clean or sober, and who didn't ask me to sleep with them after the third lesson.

<hr /></blockquote>

I agree. I always ask immediately. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Fran Crimi
07-06-2006, 07:24 AM
Yeeeeikes! Well, at least you ask up front. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

But seriously, if you were a BCA instructor and did that today, you'd have your certificate revoked before I finished typing this.

Fran

DickLeonard
07-06-2006, 08:38 AM
Gayle Ed who?

Gayle in MD
07-06-2006, 11:23 AM
LMAO, ... You know...the post police! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

eg8r
07-06-2006, 11:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Dick,
Only one way to deal with Ed's idiotic posts...total ignore! <hr /></blockquote> Yet you are too childish to do so. You prove it on the other side of the forum in which you lower yourself (is that possible) to nothing more than a 5 year old pitching a hissy fit in a reply to me. Grow up and do what you say, act like an adult for once.

eg8r

eg8r
07-06-2006, 11:43 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Gayle Ed who? <hr /></blockquote> Senility has set in. Don't worry, your puppy dog is answering for you, just please be kind enough to pet her on the head and give her a bath, she has been stinking up the other side of the board for a few years.

eg8r

Qtec
07-07-2006, 05:57 AM
Hi Ed. Nice to see you again.
If you hate her posts so much, why do you bother replying?

Q.......BTW did you hear about GW's FLIP-FLOP on immigration. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif[ just had to say it /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif]

Rich R.
07-07-2006, 06:30 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>If you hate her posts so much, why do you bother replying? <hr /></blockquote>
Because he just likes to argue. The topic doesn't matter. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

pooltchr
07-07-2006, 06:37 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> Hi Ed. Nice to see you again.
If you hate her posts so much, why do you bother replying?

Q.... <hr /></blockquote>

It's like a train wreck. You know it going to be ugly, but you still look!
Steve

pageman99
07-07-2006, 09:22 PM
Sorry it takes so long for me to respond. I don't get in front of the computer as often as I'd like.

You make some valid points.

&gt;A good instructor knows how to observe and spot any flaws in your mechanics that might be holding you back. That is very difficult to do on your own.&lt;

I've watched teachers of pool at work. Apparently there aren't too many good ones. What I saw was useless, particularly because each individual has a different body type and the teacher tries to teach one way. Not good. Some of the best players I've seen are completely non standard.


&gt;The majority of players are more social and league players. Matching up doesn't mean anything to them. Being able to win on league night does.&lt;

And league play is fun for some. But I've yet to see a league player who plays leagues exclusively, turn into a player worth a damn. I'm sure there's exceptions but they are few and far between.

&gt;How to channel the adrenaline under the pressure. There are some very good ways to address this with students of the game....even the beginners.&lt;

Nonsense, you can tell them all you want, but they still have to do it. Adrenaline is so powerful and hard to channel, especially in a game of nerves and precision like pool or golf only experience, and lots of it, will do the trick.

&gt;Most need some help to learn these things.&lt;
Probably true, but I stand by my statement when it applies to someone who wants to be great.

&gt;I don't think anyone ever masters this game. I dare say you could ask Archer, Reyes, Strickland or any of the best players in the world, and they would most certainly tell you they still could be better than they are. It's what keeps us working at it. Continuous improvement!&lt;

Nuts! They could still be more consistent, but not better. Pool is the one GAME that a person CAN master. The hard thing is to master ONESELF!

If you don't believe it, you haven't seen some of the things I have.

pageman99
07-07-2006, 09:32 PM
Simonis may have been around for 400 years but it sure as heck wasn't as readily available in the 60's and 70's as it is today. I can't ever remember seeing it in those days and I was on thousands of tables in hundreds of towns and cities.

pageman99
07-07-2006, 09:40 PM
&gt;I cut my teeth on the game in the 70's and what I saw in pool rooms wasn't a pretty sight. People we were calling 'champions' were stepping out of the mens rooms with white powder stuck to their nostrils, before, during and after their matches. If there was a marathon match going on, then someone in the place was holding the drugs.

Who was over in a corner popping speed and who was over in the other corner taking ludes to calm his nerves...

How many of those champions would have been able to play those marathon matches if it wasn't for the drugs? How many of them would have had the nerve to compete in tournaments if it wasn't for the drugs? How many of them would have been as good as they became if it wasn't for the drugs?&lt;

Robin Williams said: "Cocaine is God's way of telling you, you're making too much money."

I can't say I never touched the stuff, you had to understand the environment at the time. But I guarantee you I never played a money game under the influence of anything but caffeine and nicotine. BTW nicotine is more addictive than heroin.

&gt;And you're knocking teaching pool? As if the old way was better? Hell...Back in the 70's I was grateful just to find someone who could help me with my game who was clean or sober, and who didn't ask me to sleep with them after the third lesson.&lt;

Not knocking it, some need it, but I don't think in the long run it's helpful for someone who wants to be a top player.

As far as sleeping with you, pool players aren't the smoothest characters I've ever met. But some are the most interesting characters I've met.

&gt;Yeah, maybe you could have given me the 6 ball back then, but at least I didn't sell my soul.&lt;

IMO drugs are a detriment and a crutch if you want to play your best. Needing drugs may be the best testament to the fact that the mental side of the game is more difficult than the physical side.

pageman99
07-07-2006, 09:42 PM
&gt;I would have bet on Jean Balukas with the 6 ball back in your day. &lt;

You'd have lost. That would have been an easy game. Do you think she was in the same league as Fisher and Corr?

pageman99
07-07-2006, 10:02 PM
&gt;Pageman I have posted about Andy Bakerian and his unbelieveable break. I racked nineballs for 3+hours for him trying to learn his secret of breaking. He hadn't played in 5 years.&lt;

I don't know if it's a secret, it's more of a knack IMO. I was once told the fastest break recorded was 28 MPH. I don't know if it's true or not but sure doesn't seem right.

Do you happen to know what the weight of the average break stick pros use today?

&gt;I heard of Jimmy Moore running 17 racks of nineball for 100 a game. The downside was that he just got even.#### &lt;

Interesting. I was involved in a game where 17 racks were run, interspersed with 4 9's on the break. It was a ring game in Baltimore, 7 man $50 a game, double on the run and breaks. $12,600 which would have bought a nice house in 1971.

As a side note, I never saw the Cowboy play though I certainly knew who he was.

Scott Lee
07-08-2006, 10:56 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pageman99:</font><hr>

&gt;And you're knocking teaching pool?

Not knocking it, some need it, but I don't think in the long run it's helpful for someone who wants to be a top player.
<hr /></blockquote>

pageman99...either you're ignorant of today's top players, or you're just stuck in the past. Do you consider Thorsten Hohman a top player? How about Jasmine Ouschan? These are just TWO recent TOP PLAYERS who consistently have used teachers and coaches to achieve their superior results.
Now perhaps you mean AMERICAN players. If so, then you'd probably be right, as ego prevents many American players from seeking professional help, when they could benefit from it. Europeons are way ahead of the grade on that one...and it shows in top finishes at almost any tournament anywhere. Same thing in Asia. The Chinese get coaching and instruction, on a national level, and play pretty damn strong...consider the current World Champion in both 8-ball &amp; 9-ball...a 17 yr old kid!

Scott Lee

eg8r
07-08-2006, 07:18 PM
[ QUOTE ]
If you hate her posts so much, why do you bother replying? <hr /></blockquote> I never said I hated her posts, I merely stated they stunk the board up. She is more like a little dog that sits at the window and barks at every person that walks by.

I have been quite busy at work and have not had the chance to read a whole lot on the net lately. What was the flip flop?

eg8r

eg8r
07-08-2006, 07:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Because he just likes to argue. The topic doesn't matter. <hr /></blockquote> Somebody finally woke up and took a look in the mirror. I believe you were the childish one that argued with Gayle a few years ago about women's pool. All you did was begin an arugment and you bailed out as soon as you noticed how low you stooped (that or you never figured it out). Needless to say, a few years down the road and the child in you popped out again. Quite classy of you.

eg8r

pageman99
07-08-2006, 09:11 PM
&gt;pageman99...either you're ignorant of today's top players, or you're just stuck in the past. Do you consider Thorsten Hohman a top player? How about Jasmine Ouschan? These are just TWO recent TOP PLAYERS who consistently have used teachers and coaches to achieve their superior results.
Now perhaps you mean AMERICAN players. If so, then you'd probably be right, as ego prevents many American players from seeking professional help, when they could benefit from it. Europeons are way ahead of the grade on that one...and it shows in top finishes at almost any tournament anywhere. Same thing in Asia. The Chinese get coaching and instruction, on a national level, and play pretty damn strong...consider the current World Champion in both 8-ball &amp; 9-ball...a 17 yr old kid!&lt;

I suggested we should agree to disagree on this one. But I'll make a short response and let it go.

You give examples, I'll give better examples (non-American too!) Reyes, Bustamante and Manalo. Reyes and Bustamante are much better than Hohman IMO. I suggest their experience not their egos are why they shun teachers. BTW the only European that I saw in the IPT semi-finals was Immonen. Don't know whether he has a teacher. 8-)


Also the nature of the game requires one to be self reliant. And an understanding of one's own game, without the crutch of a teacher, is helpful to say the least. It's awful hard to have a teacher around when you're on the verge of a meltdown in a big game. It's best to look inside and find the guts to suck it up.

In my recent experience, it's those who came up the hard way who have the most heart. Again just my experience. BTW how many years have you spent on the road supporting yourself just by playing pool?

And please, I'm not stuck in the 60's and 70's. And I've been called many things but never ignorant before. No need for personal attacks. I'm just trying to share my hard earned experience with some of the folks on the board. There's an awful lot of lurkers here and very few posters. And from the posts I've seen, not too many with experience that I'd call interesting. Or perhaps it's difficult for them to communicate. A talent not shared by everybody.

Another story. I was around 14 when I met Walter Tevis. He liked to travel around and just hang out in old time rooms. I had no idea who he was, just thought he was some "old" guy who liked to tell stories. But I learned so much from him in the few hours we shared I've never forgotten the man. He was a storyteller, a bit stubborn about certain ideas but he loved to share the lore of the game.

And that's all I'm trying to do. Share some lore. It's up to the reader to use judgement and decide whether I'm full of it and/or whether what I share is useful. Period.

And I'm a bit stubborn too; after all, it helped me overcome the fact that all the old timers who took my quarters would laugh and tell me to quit trying so hard and just "poke and hope" as I'd never get any good.

Scott Lee
07-08-2006, 09:33 PM
One of my friends (another well-known instructor) said it best: "They just don't know what they don't know!" I guess we'll just leave it at that...

oh, and to answer your other question...25, and still going strong!

Scott Lee

ryushen21
07-08-2006, 09:57 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pageman99:</font><hr> &gt;Also the nature of the game requires one to be self reliant. And an understanding of one's own game, without the crutch of a teacher, is helpful to say the least. It's awful hard to have a teacher around when you're on the verge of a meltdown in a big game. It's best to look inside and find the guts to suck it up.
<hr /></blockquote>

The "crutch of a teacher" has to be one of the most absurd things that I have ever heard. To say that in order to be self reliant, you have to not have a teacher is ludicrous.

In almost any venture, the game, life etc...it is inevitable that there are things that you don't know. When you reach those junctures you need someone to show and help you with the things that you are ignorant of. Unless you want to waste a whole lot of time piddling aroung with trial and error until you find something that works (which may or may not be the best way). Any teacher worth a damn is going to teach you how to maintain the skills that they have given you.

I have been a teacher in some way or form for the last two years and one of the things that I always look for is a way to reinforce the material that I teach in such a way so that when the student is under pressure (i.e. writing a paper, or taking an exam) that they can perform to the level i have taught them. I can't imagine what students would do if you just threw them a book and said "learn this." It doesn't work.

I am not saying that everyone needs a teacher. I know a lot of players who are great players and have probably never had a day of instruction. But there are plenty of players out there who seek out instruction and benefit greatly from it.

I will say this though, the only way to learn the mental toughness that is required so often is entirely up to the player. Nerves are handled differently by everyone. No instructor can teach you that. But as far as fundamentals, mechanics, etc, an instructor will absolutely help anyone that seeks them out.

pageman99
07-08-2006, 10:00 PM
&gt;oh, and to answer your other question...25, and still going strong!&lt;

25 years with no real job? Very good. Very, very good.

&gt;"They just don't know what they don't know!"&lt;

This one I don't understand. Aside from the fact that by definition nobody "knows" what they don't know. The statement is meaningless in the literal sense. But I get the point, though I believe the statement is somewhat arrogant.

Who is the "they" the other well known instructor is referring to? If you mean beginning students, I definitely agree. If you mean top players, your instructor friend is being a bit presumptuous as he too obviously doesn't know what he doesn't know. And neither do you, me or the pope.

And we'll have to leave it at that. 8-)

pageman99
07-08-2006, 10:15 PM
&gt;The "crutch of a teacher" has to be one of the most absurd things that I have ever heard. To say that in order to be self reliant, you have to not have a teacher is ludicrous.&lt;

Hmm... You should go back and reread my post a bit more carefully. You call my statement ludicrous then go on to say:

"I will say this though, the only way to learn the mental toughness that is required so often is entirely up to the player. Nerves are handled differently by everyone. No instructor can teach you that."

Seems that you make my point... All I was saying is that under pressure no teacher can help.

Another story. Lou Butera gave an exhibition at a local room. Afterwards a few of the better players were showing him some of their own trick shots. I showed him mine. He laughed and said my shots weren't "trick shots", they were skill shots and since they weren't makeable 95% of the time you couldn't rely on them for an exhibition, but they were great gamblers shots since they could be used to reel in the customer's money at better than an 80% rate.

Now to me, he was being a teacher. But he wasn't my instructor. It goes back to the sharing of lore. Very useful, very personalized and very powerful.

BTW, that day he showed me, what at the time, I considered an astounding shot, but one he rarely demonstrated as it wasn't "reliable".

He put an object ball inside a rack and jumped the cue ball in and jumped the object ball out, usually into a nearby side pocket. I later used this on the road as a hustler's shot. Except I jumped the object ball out and made it in a distant corner pocket. To get the rest of the money from the stubborn "customers" I would jump the object ball out and pocket it on the fly. After I got the money, just to relax the "customers" and keep them from thinking they got fleeced by some no account gambler, I would set up the same shot so that the object ball AND the cue ball would each fly into their own corner pockets.

Now you've learned some lore. To avoid getting your thumbs broken, always remember you're an entertainer. And give them more than their money's worth.

ryushen21
07-08-2006, 10:41 PM
Then say waht you mean and don't leave anything to be misinterpreted. It's seems to me like you just doing a lot of flame baiting here and that is not why i started this thread.

pageman99
07-08-2006, 11:05 PM
&gt;I can't imagine what students would do if you just threw them a book and said "learn this." It doesn't work. &lt;

I forgot I wanted to expand on this statement. Apparently you teach in a school system somewhere. Well then you should have heard of a place called Cambridge University. The one in England.

There, they don't even throw you a book. You choose what you want to learn, you don't have a teacher, you have an "advisor" who doesn't teach you, but may guide you in your studies of the books YOU choose. When you're ready you go before the examining board. They ask you questions about your chosen field of study. If they think you know what you're talking about, you get a degree.

Now this is one of the best schools in the world, with some of the most famous graduates in the world. Methinks it works.

But admittedly it's not for everybody, just those that aspire to be the best in their field. 8-)

pageman99
07-08-2006, 11:11 PM
&gt;"Then say waht you mean and don't leave anything to be misinterpreted. It's seems to me like you just doing a lot of flame baiting here and that is not why i started this thread."&lt;

Huh??

And I'm hardly flame baiting, just responding to folks commenting on my original post, which if I remember correctly, was on topic.

ryushen21
07-08-2006, 11:23 PM
What I meant is that you leave things ambiguous almost as if you want them to allow a poster to take whatever angle they want on it to bite back at you so that you can throw in another post on what you think is right. IMHO, that is flame baiting. I'm more than happy to let a thread die.

As far as Cambridge (I know you meant the one in England please give me more credit than that), I am not privileged enough to know their methods, but I am reasonably sure that the students that choose to attend there have full knowledge of how their study is conducted and choose to go there for their own reasons because it suits them better.

I don't doubt their credentials or their list of graduates. However, you must keep in mind that what works for some doesn't work for others. There really is no best way just different approaches.

onepocketchump
07-09-2006, 06:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pageman99:</font><hr>
&gt;I don't think anyone ever masters this game. I dare say you could ask Archer, Reyes, Strickland or any of the best players in the world, and they would most certainly tell you they still could be better than they are. It's what keeps us working at it. Continuous improvement!&lt;

Nuts! They could still be more consistent, but not better. Pool is the one GAME that a person CAN master. The hard thing is to master ONESELF!

If you don't believe it, you haven't seen some of the things I have.

<hr /></blockquote>

No matter who you are you haven't seen the ultimate pool player. He doesn't exist. Reyes, Archer all of them could be better and they know it and admit it.

If Efren had Blohmdahl's three cushion knowledge for example then he would be better. If Archer had Reyes' touch then he would be better.

Everyone can improve their physical skill and knowledge.

Sometimes you even learn lessons that are different than the ones the teachers are teaching. Everybody processes information in their own way.

John

Scott Lee
07-09-2006, 08:21 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pageman99:</font><hr>
25 years with no real job? Very good. Very, very good.
<hr /></blockquote>

Actually, I do have a real job! I am one of very few poolplayers who get PAID to play...and paid well! It IS my job! I always tell people in my audiences that, "I have the best job in the world...I get paid to play pool!" It doesn't get any better than that!

About your other comments...I guess we'll just let it go! Randyg made the most appropriate comment to you of all, shortly after your first post...

Scott Lee

wolfdancer
07-09-2006, 12:03 PM
Scott, I think it's great to have someone come on board here, and give us another "take" on the game. I wasn't into pool at the time, and missed that era....where all the good stories come from, it seems.
And from the tales that I've heard....that's how you learned the game then...you put your money up, and watched how the better players did it....the corollary, I'd guess was that you either learned how to play, or went broke and quit the game.
Even today, with the wealth of instructional material available, and teachers that are actually certified as such....I still believe that after you learn the basics...then you improve through experience, while developing you own style of play.

DSAPOLIS
07-09-2006, 03:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote wolfdancer:</font><hr> Scott, I think it's great to have someone come on board here, and give us another "take" on the game. I wasn't into pool at the time, and missed that era....where all the good stories come from, it seems.
And from the tales that I've heard....that's how you learned the game then...you put your money up, and watched how the better players did it....the corollary, I'd guess was that you either learned how to play, or went broke and quit the game.
Even today, with the wealth of instructional material available, and teachers that are actually certified as such....I still believe that after you learn the basics...then you improve through experience, while developing you own style of play. <hr /></blockquote>

Exactly... here is an excerpt from my book Building The Perfect Game where I am examining the accumulation and application of knowledge.

<font color="blue"> Knowledge
We should never stop accumulating useful knowledge. Not everything you will find out there is good knowledge. There are several brands of knowledge that (in my opinion) promote the breeding of bad habits. There are several products on the market that do absolutely nothing but pass along generic, basic, or useless information. I recommend taking a lesson or two from a qualified instructor or a professional. Not all instructors are pros; not all pros have the ability to teach. You might have to shop around a bit to find an instructor that is in tune with your needs. The basic rule that I follow is to find someone that doesn't put up with your crap. The "Mother Theresa" brands of coaches and instructors are out there - and for people such as I, they should be avoided. A coach/instructor should not be telling you everything that you want to hear. He/she should not beat around the bush when it comes to pointing out your weak spots. They should be blunt to point of rudeness if they have to. A coach's main purpose is to motivate you and to set up a plan of action to accomplish your goals.

NOT ALL KNOWLEDGE COMES FROM BOOKS. Most of the knowledge that you will obtain will come from what you learn while at the table. Believe it or not, your brain is recording everything that is going on. Your stance, your stroke, your sighting, your follow through, your attitude, etc. Everything is recorded, stored and available for recall. Good habits are recorded, and bad habits are recorded. Shots that are made are recorded, shots that are missed are recorded. Position routes are recorded. If you shoot 300 shots a day 4 times a week, that is 1200 shots, position routes, etc. This information is recorded and stored in the brain. THIS IS ALL KNOWLEDGE. Recognize it as such. Every shot represents us with an opportunity to learn something. Every situation presents an opportunity for us to rely upon past knowledge and experience and then apply it.

The Substance of Knowledge

Knowledge is power. Our goal is to be able to apply that power. Think of your game as a shiny light bulb. Without power it does nothing. It produces nothing. It is just a molded piece of glass. Turn on the power switch and we have light. The bulb serves its purpose. It produces light. What makes the difference? The POWER (knowledge) that ignites the FILAMENT ((skill) which lights up the BULB (your game). We need to choose what power source that we need to hook up to. Some players are like light bulbs sitting in the cupboard wondering why they cannot shine. Without power (knowledge) our game is still in the dark. The greater the POWER (knowledge), the brighter the FILAMENT (skill) and the brilliant the BULB (your game) will shine. </font color>

Bumps
07-09-2006, 06:56 PM
Iím writing this on my wifeís computer because I had it all done and my computer shut off. Some kinda heat/ electrical problem, Iím afraid.
Now, for whoever said: ďI can't imagine what students would do if you just threw them a book and said "learn this." It doesn't work.Ē. FunnyÖÖthatís what I did before I ever walked into a pool room. I had the bca booklet that came with the cheap-ass table my grandparents bought me for Christmas and Mosconiís books that were the only ones available in the library at that time. When I walked into the room that became my home-away-from-home for the next 30 or so years, I didnít need to be taught the basics, I already knew them. People made suggestions to modify a few things, but not much. And I was told, not by the people who wanted to rob me, but by the ďgoodĒ players who didnít, that I was and up-and-comer. I was going to be ďa playerĒ. I took my first ever formal lesson about 4 or 5 years later, from a guy who was considered at one time, to be the best in the world. The lesson was not about basics. 1-foul 9 ball was all the rage, and he taught me what I didnít know about hiding the cue ball and playing safe. The next lesson I had was many years later, from a top pro. He taught me to loosen my grip on the butt, but other than that I wasted my money. The best lesson I ever got was from the local road player/hustler who taught me to run out in 9 ball without using any English. Before, between, and after the lessons I got a lot of experience. I also began to notice a problem that no teacher could do anything about. Because of that problem and an incident in my personal life, I never became the player everyone thought I should have been. The problem was diagnosed and treated about 6 years ago, but it is too late now.
Iíve taught people over the years and been paid to do it sometimes. And Iíve given it away and been glad that I did. Thereís nothing like seeing somebodyís face light up after theyíve learned something new. I respect most of the people Iíve met who do teach and not all of them have been great players, as Iím not. I also respect the people who have lived the life and lived to tell about it. Guys like Louie Roberts didnít. Guys like Blackjack have, hi ya, David! The guys who have lived the life are our walking historians. Letís not insult them when they show up. Scott, Iím afraid randygís comment which you spoke of is the kind of thing that makes people not want to be here. Some of you guys act like people are taking the food out of your mouth if they disagree with what you believe about teaching. Rsb is a REALLY good example of people who show up, get insulted/harassed and leave.
I asked Mosconi years ago what he put on his shafts. His reply: Nothing, cleaned with a damp towel and rubbed dry. That was before there was much of any alternative. Irving Crane said in a BD interview: ďYou either have natural talent, or you donít.Ē, referring to learning the game. The game needs the new players, it also needs the older ones to tell the new ones what it was like living the life. Itís amazing how many league players know nothing of the history of the game, itís legends of great players and gamblers. Itís up to ALL of us to promote the game and keep up the interest any way we can. And for that, hurrah for the IPT, though I donít particularly like the way theyíre doing it.
Flame-retardant suit: ON!

Scott Lee
07-09-2006, 10:54 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bumps:</font><hr> Scott, Iím afraid randygís comment which you spoke of is the kind of thing that makes people not want to be here. Some of you guys act like people are taking the food out of your mouth if they disagree with what you believe about teaching. <hr /></blockquote>

Bumps...On the contrary! The comment by Randy reflected the majority opinion of the millions of amateur players out there, who really want to improve their games. Most players who plateau, at whatever level of expertise, usually do so because of some flaw in their set-up or delivery...or they just have bad information, that has been holding them back. Quality instructors serve a demand and a purpose. Trust me, there are far more people searching us out, than we can possibly work with! Comments like pageman99's that all lessons and instruction are a waste of time are out of place. Can any player benefit from professional help. Probably. Can any player succeed at the highest levels without it? Probably. However, imo, they'll get there quicker than by 'going it alone'.

I never insulted him. Reread the post. I said perhaps he was ignorant of the top players TODAY, that DO use instructors and coaches. Ignorant means "unknowing of a particular matter". As for the comment about being 'stuck in the past', it seems to apply, as he continually refers to the 60's &amp; 70's. There were few opportunities to get professional help back then, unlike today...and the HUGE amount of up-and-coming players shows the results of how much the learning curve is shortened by getting lessons. Lessons aren't for everyone...that's undeniable, and a good thing, because there aren't enough of us to go around now! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Scott Lee

Fran Crimi
07-10-2006, 06:22 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Needing drugs may be the best testament to the fact that the mental side of the game is more difficult than the physical side.
<hr /></blockquote>
You can't possibly believe that, can you?

Needing performance enhancing drugs is a testament to someone who needs a shrink. It's also a testament to lazyness, severe insecurity and performance anxiety. These things have nothing to do with pool. They have to do with a dysfunctional personality.

Oh and by the way, I think you're being way too harsh on Jean Balukas's playing ability. She was jam-up. Is is possible you're still carrying a bit of the 70's chauvenism with you?

Fran

Rich R.
07-10-2006, 06:28 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Oh and by the way, I think you're being way too harsh on Jean Balukas's playing ability. She was jam-up. Is is possible you're still carrying a bit of the 70's chauvenism with you? <hr /></blockquote>
Fran, I'm not sure if he is being harsh on Jean's playing ability or fantasizing about his own ability. It would be nice if pageman would give us his real name, to see if anyone recognized it.

Bumps
07-10-2006, 07:36 AM
If I've misinterpreted, I apologize. I may be a bit gunshy, I've unsubscribed to 5 or 6 usnet newsgroups over the past year or so that I have been reading/posting on since I first got on the 'net in the very early '90s, when everything was still text based. Seems like there are tons of people who just get on forums to cause trouble or tell the rest of us how to post/behave. Yeah, ok, I may be guilty of that myself from time to time, mostly I try to stay out of the arguments.
I just like to see everyone get a fair shake.

BillPorter
07-10-2006, 08:00 AM
I just finished reading this entire thread; took most of the morning with occasional interuptions from the guy repairing our heat pump!

A couple of comments about instruction: We seem to agree that there are world-class players who never had instructions (Efren, for example). And we surely agree that many players have experienced dramatic improvement as a result of instruction. I would like to suggest that even a world-class player MIGHT benefit from instruction from a teacher whose skill level is far below the player he/she is helping. After all, world-class golfers routinely used coaches to help them with their swings.

I'd like to welcome pageman99 to the board. He is obviously an experienced player who has some great stories and insights.

A personal note: I am well aware of three shortcomings in my own game; 1) I come up off the shot on many occasions, 2) I often have a very short final backstroke that under pressure may be almost nonexistent, and 3) I often do not follow through on my stroke. Now knowing these things doesn't prevent them from happening. Would an instructor be useful in overcoming these problems?

Scott Lee
07-10-2006, 08:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote BillPorter:</font><hr>A personal note: I am well aware of three shortcomings in my own game; 1) I come up off the shot on many occasions, 2) I often have a very short final backstroke that under pressure may be almost nonexistent, and 3) I often do not follow through on my stroke. Now knowing these things doesn't prevent them from happening. Would an instructor be useful in overcoming these problems? <hr /></blockquote>

Bill...As many others will tell you, an instructor may be able to give you the tools to overcome the things you note (replacing conditioned old behavior, with new disciplined behavior). However, you are the only one who can choose to work hard at applying the information. The most difficult thing to do, is resist going back to the old, comfortable way of doing something, while you're trying to replace it with something better. Sometimes our brain 'tells' us, "I could have made that shot if I did it 'my way'!" While that may be true in the aspect of short-term immediate gratification, replacing the flawed behavior with practiced disciplined routines, will pay much greater dividends in the long run.

Scott Lee

BillPorter
07-10-2006, 09:11 AM
Scott, thanks for the reply! I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned "choose to work hard at applying the information." I'm afraid the bottom line is that I just haven't been willing to expend the time and effort to correct the flaws. As for you and your fellow pool instructors, keep up the good work! If your students are sufficiently motivated, I'm sure they will profit from your instruction.