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07-10-2002, 11:50 PM
have you seen this and what do you think about it.

some top players i know do their strokes pointed at the bottom of the ball till the final then they come up to the right c.b. hit. i've seen it a lot on breaks but also during the run.

??????

dan

Jay M
07-11-2002, 04:54 AM
Ray and I have discussed this in the past. There is a point where you've found your natural stroke. Once you're there, you adjust your aim point to match your stroke rather than trying to force yourself into a different stroke to fit your aiming point. The change in aiming point is most apparent on the break. For me, on the side break, I aim nearly 2 tips below the cue ball's edge because I drop my elbow on the break, which causes the tip to rise and strike the cue above center. The same principle applies to other shots, although not to the same degree.

Jay M

SPetty
07-11-2002, 12:01 PM
Hi Dan,

I think when this subject came up before, one of the theories was that they were stroking to the bottom of the ball in order to find the horizontal center of the ball. They knew where they wanted to hit it vertically, but were stroking to get at the center horizontally (left to right).

Rod
07-11-2002, 04:23 PM
Dan,
I do that on the break for the same reason as Jay M.

TonyM
07-11-2002, 05:46 PM
There was a lengthy discussion about this on rsb recently. You might want to do a google groups search on it.

Some of the players that do this claim that it helps them sight the relationship between the bottom of the cueball (where it touches the cloth - that is the center of the ball) and the bottom of the object ball. So it helps them to "see" centerball better. Others claim that it helps them to hit the cueball low enough to get adequate draw.

It seems to have become fashionable amongst many of the top 9 ball players. Bustemante, Soquet, Strickland, Jones and others all do it. Then again, there are many others that do not.

Steve Davis aims just a bit below center, and then dips the tip of the cue just before impact (the reverse of this technique).

I guess if it helps you to get a consistent result then why not?

The usual argument is that you cannot hit the ball there, so why not aim where you are going to hit it?

Tony

SpiderMan
07-15-2002, 09:16 AM
I drew Jeremy Jones at a Texas Express stop in College Station several years back. I noticed that he seemed to address the cueball low regardless of the final contact point. I did ask him why (after the match), and he said it was easier for him to "line up" the shot that way.

The best I can figure is that by lining up low he was able to make sure his stick was aiming through the centerline of the cueball. It's easy to be a little off in the middle of the ball, but down low you have that one point (where it touches the table) as a visual centerline reference.

SpiderMan

phil in sofla
07-15-2002, 03:39 PM
I've seen the recommendation to use the bottom of the object ball to get the line for a straight in shot, and I've found that works very well to sight that line in. It makes sense that this might also be a factor in sighting on the cue ball, as others have said.

07-15-2002, 04:03 PM
I've seen it. I think it's a habit and players do it because it feels good. As for their reasons why, I'm sure they've managed to convince themselves that there's a benefit to it. After all, no one wants to think that what they do doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Fran

07-15-2002, 04:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I've seen it. I think it's a habit and players do it because it feels good. As for their reasons why, I'm sure they've managed to convince themselves that there's a benefit to it. After all, no one wants to think that what they do doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Fran <hr></blockquote>

i'm pretty much coming to that conclusion myself.

dan

phil in sofla
07-15-2002, 04:35 PM
The first guy I played who did this confused the heck out of me, since it appeared he was going to use a low hit to draw the ball, and yet the ball would behave as if he stunned it, or followed it, or whatever (since that was how the final stroke was delivered).

So, sort of like a pitcher who tries to disguise what pitch he's going to use by using the same grip until he gets the ball out of sight in his glove, this could disguise what you're going to do to your opponent.

Problem is that there is no benefit to fooling your opponent in pool as to what you're going to do!

07-15-2002, 05:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: phil in sofla:</font><hr> The first guy I played who did this confused the heck out of me, since it appeared he was going to use a low hit to draw the ball, and yet the ball would behave as if he stunned it, or followed it, or whatever (since that was how the final stroke was delivered).

So, sort of like a pitcher who tries to disguise what pitch he's going to use by using the same grip until he gets the ball out of sight in his glove, this could disguise what you're going to do to your opponent.

Problem is that there is no benefit to fooling your opponent in pool as to what you're going to do! <hr></blockquote>

now i understand; he's sneaking up on the cue ball. fels had a piece about that some time back. very effective.

dan

SpiderMan
07-16-2002, 08:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> I've seen it. I think it's a habit and players do it because it feels good. As for their reasons why, I'm sure they've managed to convince themselves that there's a benefit to it. After all, no one wants to think that what they do doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Fran <hr></blockquote>

Fran,

It is actually a fairly precise way to find the vertical centerline of the cueball, for a player who likes to line up his shots centerball and then adjust. The vertical centerline of course originates at the point where the cueball touches the cloth. I've tried it a few times and it seems to help me get very finely adjusted on long straight-ins. If a player does it on all shots, it could be that he's just incorporated it into a pre-shot routine.

If he's also using a moderately-long bridge, he could be bridging at the natural deflection pivot of his cue, so he could then strike the cueball anywhere and have it pretty much follow the original aim path (automatic compensation). There are probably fine players out there doing this without realizing why it works.

Makes sense to me, but I'm one of those engineer nerd things.

SpiderMan

SpiderMan
07-16-2002, 08:29 AM
Of course, for every player who does it for the real reason, there are probably ten more who do it because they saw that guy making some good shots /ccboard/images/icons/wink.gif

SpiderMan

07-16-2002, 09:00 AM
Vertical and center are relative terms in dealing with a round object. As an engineer nerd thing that you are, Im sure you know that there's less margin for error at the base of the ball. Even the slightest miscalculation at the base of the ball will result in a fairly substantial error at a higher point.

Fran

07-16-2002, 09:08 AM
Amplify that with the way some players lay the tip and ferrule across the aim path touching the cloth. We've one players who shoot realy well who does that and several others I've noticed seemingly criss cross the line(beyond the CB point) at cloth level, and then correcting the true hit during execution. I'm going to approach them someday and ask if I am seeing things right...sid

07-16-2002, 03:05 PM
Actually, that's not the case. The advantage of lining up at the base of the ball is that small errors are visually apparent. The "center" is a relatively poorly-defined "blob".

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Even the slightest miscalculation at the base of the ball will result in a fairly substantial error at a higher point.
Fran <hr></blockquote>

07-16-2002, 03:53 PM
If you don't mind, would you please provide the scientific theory by which you came to that conclusion so we can all learn from it? And please provide the data on how the center of the cue ball is a "relatively poorly defined blob."

Thanks,

Fran

SpiderMan
07-16-2002, 04:10 PM
In trying to determine whether a ball is inside or outside of the headstring, you need to make a very precise judgement of whether the center of the ball is over the line. Would you look at the center of the ball, or at the point where the ball touches the cloth?

SpiderMan

07-16-2002, 10:25 PM
i believe what anon is refering to is that it is easier to find the centerball at the base because where the CB contacts the table is where the centerball is. it is visually apparant. however finding the center of the cb at its middle is much harder. it is not visually apparant and is approximated.

similiarly, when the cueball is on the rail, the best way to hit it centerball is to find its highest peak(just as finding center at its contact point on the table is its "lowest point").

data not required

Rod
07-16-2002, 11:14 PM
Spidey, I always got a laugh when a guy/gal takes their cue and holds it over the ball. Of course their using the tip at one diamond and the butt at the other side. Now how many centers are they trying to find? lol

SpiderMan
07-17-2002, 05:49 AM
That is exactly correct. It's not a technique for everyone, but that's precisely why it works for those who choose to use it.

SpiderMan

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: arnie:</font><hr> i believe what anon is refering to is that it is easier to find the centerball at the base because where the CB contacts the table is where the centerball is. it is visually apparant. however finding the center of the cb at its middle is much harder. it is not visually apparant and is approximated.

similiarly, when the cueball is on the rail, the best way to hit it centerball is to find its highest peak(just as finding center at its contact point on the table is its "lowest point").

data not required <hr></blockquote>

SpiderMan
07-17-2002, 05:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Rod:</font><hr> Spidey, I always got a laugh when a guy/gal takes their cue and holds it over the ball. Of course their using the tip at one diamond and the butt at the other side. Now how many centers are they trying to find? lol <hr></blockquote>

Not many! But they keep on doing it, rather than looking at where the ball touches the cloth. Maybe they don't realize that it's round?

SpiderMan

07-17-2002, 07:52 AM
In determining whether a ball is inside or outside the headstring, the rule is that the base of the ball is the determining factor. The base of the ball leads directly through the center core of the cue ball. The reference point relative to the base of the ball is the horizontal line extending between the two diamonds along the side rails.

Let me ask you this question. When you are in your shooting stance, can you actually see where the cue ball is touching the cloth? I know that I can't see it unless I get out of my stance and crouch all the way down. So what are you accomplishing by placing your cue tip somewhere where you are assuming the cue ball is actually touching the cloth? All you are accomplishing by that is placing your cue tip somewhere on the bottom of the ball, and just because your tip is placed on the cloth, it doesn't mean you are seeing the base of the ball relative to the line of the shot), which is actually underneath the ball.

Fran

07-17-2002, 08:54 AM
bernie mickleson a top canadian player looks like hes hitting topspin on every shot but then hell draw the ball back instead looks funny as heck