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mattman
07-11-2006, 10:07 AM
I currently have an older Meucci, but I am in the market for a new cue. I have been reading a lot about shaft deflection and so forth. Correct me if I am wrong, but a shaft with less deflection is more accurate when aiming, but puts less english on a ball compared to a shaft that deflects more?

Thanks
Matt

dr_dave
07-11-2006, 12:34 PM
With a low squirt (AKA "low deflection") cue, the cue ball (CB) will head closer to the aiming line when using English (i.e., the CB won't squirt or deflect sideways as much). For demonstrations, see NV 4.13 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/NV4-13.htm) and NV A.17 (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/normal_videos/new/NVA-17.htm). For more information, see the links under "squirt" in the thread summary section of my website (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html).

FYI, Platinum Billiards has a comparison of various cues posted here (https://www.platinumbilliards.com/rating_deflect.php).

I hope that helps,
Dr. Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mattman:</font><hr> I currently have an older Meucci, but I am in the market for a new cue. I have been reading a lot about shaft deflection and so forth. Correct me if I am wrong, but a shaft with less deflection is more accurate when aiming, but puts less english on a ball compared to a shaft that deflects more?

Thanks
Matt <hr /></blockquote>

Jal
07-11-2006, 01:05 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mattman:</font><hr>... Correct me if I am wrong, but a shaft with less deflection is more accurate when aiming, but puts less english on a ball compared to a shaft that deflects more?<hr /></blockquote>As far as the english is concerned, I believe a low squirt shaft, in theory at least, should produce a little more spin. With a higher squirt shaft, the net force between the stick and the cueball is directed more toward the center of the cueball, yielding less effective tip offset. Also, the cueball should "see" less of the cue's mass for the same reason. Thus, less force.

Have you read something else or followed a different line of thought?

Jim

mattman
07-11-2006, 01:10 PM
Thanks....I understand that much. What it seems to me is people saying that with a "low squirt" cue, english is not as pronounced as a high deflecting cue. Anotherwards, you can't get as much draw as a high deflecting cue (given the same stroke speed, hitting the cue ball in the same place and all other things being equal). Does that make since?

Thanks again
Matt

dr_dave
07-11-2006, 01:17 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>As far as the english is concerned, I believe a low squirt shaft, in theory at least, should produce a little more spin. With a higher squirt shaft, the net force between the stick and the cueball is directed more toward the center of the cueball, yielding less effective tip offset.<hr /></blockquote>
Agreed, assuming all other things (e.g., tip size, shape, and friction) are equal in comparing one shaft to another.

Dave

mattman
07-11-2006, 01:30 PM
OK....thanks. Seems like that's been cleared up for me. I didn't see Jal's post until I made my second post...must have been typing at the same time.

dr_dave
07-11-2006, 01:38 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mattman:</font><hr> Thanks....I understand that much. What it seems to me is people saying that with a "low squirt" cue, english is not as pronounced as a high deflecting cue.<hr /></blockquote>
Matt,

First, we need to be clear on terminology. A low squirt cue actually deflects quite a bit. (The cue stick deflects, and the cue ball's motion doesn't.) So to me, the term "high deflecting cue" is misleading. See my terminology post (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=229836&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=1) for more information.

Now, to answer your question, I think a low squirt cue can create as much and even more English than a high squirt cue, assuming everything else (e.g., tip size, shape, hardness, friction, etc.) is the same. See my October '05 instructional article (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/bd_articles/oct05.pdf) and an earlier posting of some of my high-speed-video testing results (http://www.billiardsdigest.com/ccboard/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=ccb&amp;Number=201674&amp;page =0&amp;view=collapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) for more information. In my series of tests, the Predator Z shaft was able to generate significant English.

Regards,
Dave

Rod
07-11-2006, 06:11 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>As far as the english is concerned, I believe a low squirt shaft, in theory at least, should produce a little more spin. With a higher squirt shaft, the net force between the stick and the cueball is directed more toward the center of the cueball, yielding less effective tip offset.<hr /></blockquote>
Agreed, assuming all other things (e.g., tip size, shape, and friction) are equal in comparing one shaft to another.

Dave <hr /></blockquote>

Well, tip offset wasn't mentioned. For you tech guys /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm supprised it wasn't mentioned. Jal sort of leads that direction but, why not just strike the c/b with more offset using a HS shaft?

Lets assume it does spin a tad more. What's that number in terms of rev's per minute? If I draw the c/b 10ft (which is easy) how much more will I draw it (all things being equal) with a LS shaft? How about 3ft 6ft or 15ft?

My point is, do you really need more draw or side spin? I'd suggest you first need a much better stroke (or better shot selection) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif because the tiny amount offered doesn't really mean anything. However the hype they sell, and many buy into, makes them think they get a lot more spin. It's magic!! LOL Folks you just can't buy a better stroke, you have to earn it.

Rod

pooltchr
07-11-2006, 06:40 PM
Rod,
I agree. The amount of spin on the cue ball is determined by your stroke and tip placement. The difference in the amount of spin between one shaft and another is reletively insignificant. And if you don't have the stroke, it isn't going to matter what cue you are using anyway.
Steve

dr_dave
07-11-2006, 07:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>Well, tip offset wasn't mentioned. For you tech guys /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm supprised it wasn't mentioned. Jal sort of leads that direction but, why not just strike the c/b with more offset using a HS shaft?

Lets assume it does spin a tad more. What's that number in terms of rev's per minute? If I draw the c/b 10ft (which is easy) how much more will I draw it (all things being equal) with a LS shaft? How about 3ft 6ft or 15ft?

My point is, do you really need more draw or side spin? I'd suggest you first need a much better stroke (or better shot selection) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif because the tiny amount offered doesn't really mean anything. However the hype they sell, and many buy into, makes them think they get a lot more spin. It's magic!! LOL Folks you just can't buy a better stroke, you have to earn it.<hr /></blockquote>
No disagreements here.

Regards,
Dave

Jal
07-12-2006, 03:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Rod:</font><hr>...Well, tip offset wasn't mentioned. For you tech guys /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif I'm supprised it wasn't mentioned. Jal sort of leads that direction but, why not just strike the c/b with more offset using a HS shaft?

Lets assume it does spin a tad more. What's that number in terms of rev's per minute? If I draw the c/b 10ft (which is easy) how much more will I draw it (all things being equal) with a LS shaft? How about 3ft 6ft or 15ft?...<hr /></blockquote> I did some comparisons for a pure sidespin shot using the data at Predator's website.

Based soley on the notion that the effective offset is reduced less by the lower squirt cue, I get a 2.4% increase in spin for the 314 over the conventional shaft, and a 3.1% increase for the Z-shaft. With their second generation versions, 2.8% and 3.8%. No other consideration, such as an increase in the useful mass of the cue, was taken into account.

So as far as spin is goes, it appears that not much is gained.

When it comes to draw, hitting down into the bed complicates things, and it may be that for some range of stick elevations a higher squirt shaft does better.

Jim

Rod
07-12-2006, 06:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Jal:</font><hr>

Based soley on the notion that the effective offset is reduced less by the lower squirt cue, I get a 2.4% increase in spin for the 314 over the conventional shaft, and a 3.1% increase for the Z-shaft. With their second generation versions, 2.8% and 3.8%. No other consideration, such as an increase in the useful mass of the cue, was taken into account.

So as far as spin is goes, it appears that not much is gained.

When it comes to draw, hitting down into the bed complicates things, and it may be that for some range of stick elevations a higher squirt shaft does better.

Jim <hr /></blockquote>

That's just it Jim, It doesn't amount to much and I haven't a clue what that means on the table. I guess if one knew a HS shaft spins the ball at 200 RPM then use that percentage or vise versa. However there's a lot more to take into consideration and that small increase wouldn't show up on a postage stamp. LOL But they make it seem like you'll see an amazing difference.

Predator, I thought at one time claimed 25% more spin, no possible way. They may be more accurate, (personally the courts still out on that one) but that's about it. What bugs me is what companies do to sell a product, any product.
What's even more amazing is people buy it. That's ok though there can be lots of reasons for needing a new shaft. My thoughts are if people mentally think they spin the ball more, that's confidence which is a good thing. I think they would be better off though taking a few lessons with the money they would have spent.

Rod