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mcpingist
07-16-2006, 10:04 AM
Hi, I'm new to the board and have been a very casual (only have averaged playing 1-2 times a year) player for 40 years or so. My family bought a used table about 45 years ago. It was several decades old when my Dad bought it, so it probably is at least 75 years old, maybe older. It was built by Brunswick and labled by a local company; Conn Billiards.

I recently had the table moved to my house and reclothed (Simonis 760), rebumpered (Accufast) and had new pockets installed. I have not been impressed with the company that did the work-lost pocket bolts, lost pocket cover bolts (aluminum wrap-around covers), etc. I also had to ask them to work on the level before they left, as it was obvious just by rolling a few balls, even to me, a novice, that it wasn't level. I thought it was OK when they left, but I really didn't have enough time to check it properly. The cloth also had areas that looked damp (it was treated with something called Ultra Shield, a fabric protector).

I have talked to the manager and they are coming back out this week to put in the missing bolts. They also have asked me to give the cloth a month to "cure". If the damp spots are still there they will replace the cloth.

My main question pertains to leveling. In playing the table since the install I have noticed slight issues with level. On some very slow rolls I have noticed some areas in which balls will move off-line very slightly, maybe an inch or so on a 5-6 foot roll. I'm not experienced enough to know if this should be considered acceptable or whether I should ask them to relevel the table. Also, when I noticed the initial problem with the level (which was much worse than the problem is now) they had already shimmed the slate and assembled the table, so they added some shims under the legs. Is this OK or should all shimming be done under the slate. I don't want to be unreasonable with this company, but want what I should reasonably be able to expect.

Thanks for any help any more experienced people can provide. Also, please feel free to comment on any of the other issues I have mentioned.

Thanks Again, MC.

Scott Lee
07-16-2006, 11:20 AM
MC...Welcome to the CCB! An inch roll over nearly the length of the table is not drastic at all, and would require minimum additional "leveling", imo. Nowadays, tables are built with many kinds of leveling 'devices', to make the job easier. There's nothing wrong with putting small shims under the legs/feet of your table. In fact, they might just use a couple of playing cards, as it won't take much to reduce the roll you mention. You don't mention what kind of floor the table is on. Many times, wood floors, or even carpeting, will 'settle' a little bit, and cause a small amount of table roll. This usually shows up a month or so after the table has been set up. From your description, it sounds like your table is probably pretty solid, and heavy...so it won't get "moved around" by leaning against it. Do prevent anyone from sitting on it, as that is detrimental to the cushions (which you just replaced), and to the level. Too bad about the mechanic losing some of the parts. Hopefully they will come out and make everything right...as they should, since you likely paid well for the job to be done. I'm not familiar with the 'Ultra Shield' fabric protection you mentioned. Sounds like some kind of Scotch Guard that they sprayed on the cloth, before they put it on your table. Unless you plan on having kids playing, with sodas or drinks sitting on the rails, I don't see any need for this kind of stuff on your cloth. It sounds like they sold you a gimmick to make a few extra bucks off of you. Most cloth today, with 'stain, or moisture protection', is woven right into the cloth, and it comes that way when you buy it. IMO the cloth should NOT be damp at all, even just after they install it...let alone having to wait a month to "see if it dries out!" LOL Perhaps you could email, or call Iwan Simonis and ask them about this 'treatment', used on their cloth. Then, at least, you get a straight answer from the horse's mouth.
The bottom line is that you should be 100% satisfied, or the dealer should come back as many times as it takes, to make everything right...and at no extra charges! jmo

Scott Lee

mcpingist
07-16-2006, 11:46 AM
Thanks Scott. It sounds like you think I should have the level adjusted, but don't think it would be difficult to do. I'm sure it wouldn't be for a competent installer, but I'm not confident this company has top quality people.

The table is a 9'-very solid and heavy. It is in the basement-on carpet over cement. Maybe I should give it a month or so to settle. It looks like they will be back in a month to redo the cloth anyway. The cloth is'nt wet, just looks that way. As I understand it the cloth is soaked in the fabric protector and allowed to dry for a couple days at the warehouse before it is installed. It has been over a week since installation so I'm pretty sure the discoloration won't go away. I suspect you are right about the sales job. I will probably tell them to not apply it to the new cloth.

Do you agree that I should have them fix the level but wait a month or so to give the carpet time to settle? Hopefully they will send a more experienced mechanic when they come back.

I really appreciate the help.

MC

Scott Lee
07-16-2006, 12:18 PM
MC...Well, like I said, that little bit of roll isn't much...especially for such a casual player! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Truthfully, it probably isn't worth messing with. If you really want it perfectly level, you could do it yourself (with a little help from one of those miniature hydrolic jacks, and some 2x4's). You could just jack up the table, on the end where the roll is (this would barely be off the floor), and slip a few playing cards underneath the leg. Whichever direction the rolloff is, would be the leg to put the cards under. That would probably do it. Since your table is on concrete, it shouldn't settle at all(unless the carpet is REALLY thick...and that should only take a few days to settle), and if you go to the trouble of a perfect level, it will likely stay that way. Good luck!

Scott Lee

dad8
07-16-2006, 12:37 PM
You said they put Accu-Fast cushions on your Brunswick table.I'm not sure if the Accu-Fats cushions are the correct profile.Most Brunswick Cushions are a K-55 profile and I'm pretty sure Accu-Fast is a K-66 profile.The k-55 is a little larger then the k-66.

mcpingist
07-16-2006, 02:15 PM
Thanks Scott. I'll try it myself and only bother them if I can't get it right.

Thanks Again,

MC

mcpingist
07-16-2006, 02:20 PM
Thanks Dad. They sold me Accufast. I wouldn't know one from the other though. Also, don't know if it matters, but the table is very old-cushions look fine to me, but again, I'm no expert.

Thanks,

MC

wolfdancer
07-16-2006, 03:55 PM
leveling a table is not rocket science....you begin at the lowest corner, and place a shim under that leg...as Scott said, most mechanics use playing cards...but don't use the Queen of Sapdes, bad luck, and the table will never play right.
As you raise one corner though, it's relation to the other corners is affected, and you may find yourself adding additional shims,and going around the table a couple of times to get it level.
If your table is sitting on carpet it will settle in and change the level from the original installation, as Scott noted.
Even if you table is a heavy antigue (nice solid wood in them old timers), you can lift the table yourself using two pieces of 2x4..as a simple mechanical lever/fulcrum....
That's all we used to relevel 37 tables after the guys trying to impress their girlfriends lifted up one end to get the balls to roll back down....on a pocket drop table.
I never heard of a decent mechanic, losing rail bolts...ain't never heard of cloth taking a month to cure....did it pick up some VD?

moblsv
07-17-2006, 01:18 PM
I had a table installed a couple of years ago that would drift all the way to the side after three rails down the length and both ends drifted toward the middle. The seams between slates all had ridges that made the table play like a bed of rocks. The company had a different installer fix it and it is great now.

A trick I used to level the table as it settled slightly in the carpet was to use a glass table top I had. Setting this directly on the table and slowly rolling a ball worked well.

mcpingist
07-17-2006, 01:24 PM
Thanks all. The installer lifted the table by hand as his helper stuck a shim under the leg. Is it ok to gently do this or do I need to use a jack /2X4s?

Thanks,

MC

Bob_Jewett
07-17-2006, 03:58 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote mcpingist:</font><hr> Thanks all. The installer lifted the table by hand as his helper stuck a shim under the leg. Is it ok to gently do this or do I need to use a jack /2X4s?... <hr /></blockquote>
I've seen an installer do this and the result was the slates were chipped all along the top seam. The slates were jammed into each other as the table bent slighlty. The cloth was not on yet, or the damage might have gone unnoticed for a while. It depends on where you lift, I suppose.

bsmutz
07-17-2006, 05:08 PM
Do not lift from one end. Lift from the sides to prevent the top of the slates jamming together. You can either use the beam that runs the length of the table or put 2x4s between the jack and the beam.

mcpingist
07-17-2006, 08:11 PM
Thanks guys-great advice. I appreciate it.
New to the site and very impressed with everyone's willingness to help the less knowledgeable.

MC