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Fasteddy7
07-28-2006, 10:12 AM
Is everyone here starting to think that gayle may be right? Congress may pass legislation that would raise minimum wage, Great! Oh but we also want to give tax breaks to multimillionaires, no sh!t. Check out this dumbass statement, he forgot to mention the tax cuts though

"We weren't going to be denied," said Rep. Steve LaTourette, R-Ohio, a leader in the effort. "How can you defend $5.15 an hour in today's economy?"

Has government always been this way or is it that I am just now starting to pay attention?


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060728/ap_on_go_co/minimum_wage

wolfdancer
07-28-2006, 10:42 AM
After reading this can anybody seriously believe that the "party" actually works for, or represents, the avg American.
I see this as a Bill, they will sponsor, knowing it will be defeated by it's "rider" clauses....and they really don't want it to pass....
But, it will allow them to claim they were trying to help, and were defeated by the "left".....

Deeman3
07-28-2006, 10:54 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fasteddy7:</font><hr> Has government always been this way or is it that I am just now starting to pay attention? <font color="blue">

A) No party looks out for the small guy.

B) Information takes a long time to get to Iowa

C) Every bill introduced to congress has riders that add pork or other unattractive spending to a bill.

D) This activity has not stopped spending in any way over the last half century. </font color>


Deeman


<hr /></blockquote>

Fasteddy7
07-28-2006, 11:13 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr>

B) Information takes a long time to get to Iowa

Deeman

<hr /></blockquote>

Thats as funny as it is true.

pooltchr
07-28-2006, 02:04 PM
This is how the government works...or perhaps more appropriately...how it DOESN'T work. Congress doesn't pass laws or vote on legislation because it is good for the country...they pass laws and vote on them to get re-elected. It's like shutting down military bases. Everyone thinks we need to close some of them, but nobody wants it to be the one in their home state or district. Just once, I would like to see a law passed because it was the right thing...not because it was the politically correct thing!
And no, everyone here is not starting to think that Gayle is right. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

llotter
07-28-2006, 02:46 PM
Those that believe in freedom should do everything possible to eliminate the 'nanny state'. The Founding Fathers knew as we all should know, that the State is the only real threat to our freedom because the State has police power. They therefore tried to limit the power of our government with the Constitution and listed specific powers in article 1, sec. 8 and this is what was ratified by the states. This was a revolutionary idea, that The People are free and autonomous and that ultimate power rests with the People and only through contract, the Constitution, do they agree to give up certain power to the State, as listed.

The Founders also knew, as Jefferson so wisely said, that the price of liberty is eternal vigilance. Unfortunately, with the government in charge of our education system, we soon forgot that we must be always watchful of government and its unceasing efforts to usurp the freedom of the citizens. There is nothing enumerated in the Constitution that give the Feds the power to intrude into the private pay rate of the citizens and even though the minimum wage may seem like a small, inconsequential interference, it is yet another in a long list of things that entice people to always look to government to solve even small problems.

When people turn to government to solve their problems, they are really looking to the police powers of government to force other citizens to pay the price. People don’t usually think that they have the right to steal from other citizens directly but somehow they can hold their heads high while enlisting government to do the stealing on their anonymous behalf.

wolfdancer
07-28-2006, 03:16 PM
[ QUOTE ]
People don’t usually think that they have the right to steal from other citizens directly but somehow they can hold their heads high while enlisting government to do the stealing on their anonymous behalf.
<hr /></blockquote>
So the mininum wage is now stealing.......
You make Ed here look like a liberal.

llotter
07-28-2006, 03:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
So the mininum wage is now stealing.......
<hr /></blockquote>

It is far worse than mere stealing because it enlist the entire population in a travisty against the Constitution and further, has most of them convinced that it is good thing. This rings of Joseph Gurbels' idea of the best type of propaganda

DickLeonard
07-28-2006, 04:28 PM
Deeman we have just lost sight of the Constitution and We the People has been replaced by We the Corp/Crooks/under the table contributions to canidates etc.

Then the gov is controlled by the Crooks,Chicken Hawks,Elitests,Gun Lobbyiest[start a war sell more guns]Oil Lobbyiest[start a war sell less gas for twice as much]. I still think Revolution is the only Solution. It time for the people to take back the Government.####

DickLeonard
07-28-2006, 04:36 PM
LLotter a Questions for you. Where you live do you have paid fireman/police/emergency personnel or is it volunteers?And if it is volunteer list your field.####

llotter
07-28-2006, 05:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Deeman we have just lost sight of the Constitution and We the People has been replaced by We the Corp/Crooks/under the table contributions to canidates etc.

Then the gov is controlled by the Crooks,Chicken Hawks,Elitests,Gun Lobbyiest[start a war sell more guns]Oil Lobbyiest[start a war sell less gas for twice as much]. I still think Revolution is the only Solution. It time for the people to take back the Government.####
<hr /></blockquote>

Let me quote something I'm sure all of you would generally agree; 'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely', Acton

The conservative’s goal is to minimize the power of the government because not only is excessive power corrupting, it is also against personal freedom. Liberals are always seeking for more concentrated power in government to solve every conceivable problem and then, practically in the same breath, complain about the corruption

pooltchr
07-28-2006, 06:33 PM
Wolf,
The government is the only organization that can legally take everything you own from you. If you resist, they can physically restrain you, lock you in a cell, and take complete control of your life.
If that isn't cause for concern, I don't know what is.
When that concept sinks in, many liberals begin to understand the true conservative way of thinking.
Big government is Bad government! Over the past 200 years, our government has passed law after law designed to make themselves bigger, and therefore more powerful. With all that power, and the money that goes with it at stake, government has also become more corrupt. I actually relax more when Congress is adjourned, because they can't do anything stupid when they aren't in session.

I love the line from the movie Hunt for Red October in the end when SC says "A little revolution now and then can be a good thing".
Our government has very gradually taken away our rights, a little bit at a time, and people are starting to realize they are out of control. I'm not sure we can get it back under control simply by using our right to vote. There are too many people who either don't understand the problem, or don't care.
Steve

Gayle in MD
07-29-2006, 04:51 AM
AH HA HA HA...I knew Virginians couldn't drive, didn't know they couldn't think, either.

Here we are in the middle of the biggest Conservative power grab by a President in history, and you lay the quest for power at the feet of Liberals! BWA HA HA HA...
176 Signing statements by Bush, in an effort to cancel out the function of Constitutional Checks and balances and grab more presidential power? HA HA HA, /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Conservatives run up the biggest debt in history, payolla left and right for the rich, Corruption and graft beyond anyting we're ever seen, and you want to destroy the only check on corporate fascism that we have, do away with social security, prevent any insurance against going back to sweat shops, (Unions) and corporate graft, and you call that being Conservative?

Minimizing Government and personal freedom? This claim from a conservative, while the conservatives run up massive debts, increasing the size of Goverment beyond anything we've seen, Corporations allowed to set energy policy, and passing more legislation designed to destroy personal freedom (Abortion rights, gay rights, the right to sue incompetent surgeons, the right to maintain ownership of a roof over your head when hit with exhorbitant medical bills, the right to shop for better prices on medicine ouside the US, The rights of Journalists to keep their sources private, the right to representation when accused of a crime, privacy rights NSA spying program, just to name a few) than any other time in history, and you lay all that at the feet of LIBERALS....PAHLEZE, my sides are splitting~!

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
07-29-2006, 05:07 AM
lloiter,
Don't mind Gayle. She is so stuck on GWB as the antichrist that she has never figured out that, although he is a member of the Republican party, he is nothing close to a conservative.
She is also very good an making personal attacks against any poster who doesn't agree with her. Personally, I have been in both Virginia and Maryland, and the Maryland drivers seem to have blinders on. Hmmmmmm, maybe it has something to do with politics...where some of them also seem to wear blinders!
Steve

Gayle in MD
07-29-2006, 06:43 AM
"We'll give the poor two dollars, and give the rich millions."

Plain and simple, the CONSERVATIVE point of view. I find it amazing how the people who call themselves conservatives, so handlily overlook all the Republican pork barrell spending, masive government growth, corporate corruption, economic policies of favoritism for the wealthy, and turn right around and b**tch over people's measley Social Security payments, welfare for the hungry among us, and a minimum wage increase for the disadvantaged. As long as the bombs are flying, and the rich are getting richer, and the poor are being exploited, the conservatives are happy blaming it all on liberals! Hey, there's no point in a vote when Karl Rove is going to provide the corporate fascists their every wish, and sypply the optomistic republican

supporters with more new ideas for throwing elections. This great economic boom the President brags about is only heppening for the wealthy. The wages of the poor and middle class are dropping, or stagnant, as he and Cheney insure huge tax gifts for the oil companies who claim unheard of profits as they continue to gouge all of us at the tanks.

Halliburton is happy, Exon is happy, bin Laden is happy, North Korea is happy, Iran is happy, Bush and Cheny have trippled their wealth, china and India are happy, and the dummy conservatives are thrilled over a few extra bucks on their measley energy and utility holdings, with not a thought to the world their kids and grand kids are going to inherit!

Nothing can destroy a country as readily as an uneducated, goose-stepping, distracted from the important issues, optomistic bunch of voting contributors to its demise.

Gayle in Md.

DickLeonard
07-29-2006, 07:17 AM
LLotter I asked the question about volunteering for Fire/police/emergency jobs. Most conservatives complain about paying taxes to cities that have paid emergency services and live in suburbia where the taxes are reduced by volunteers. When you asked them what they volunteer for, they are much to busy for that.

Then I say to them so what your saying is your stealing from your neighbor who is performing these tasks and your enjoying the tax break which their volunteering is giving you. Most of them don't even consider this as stealing. Ah the Conservative mindset.####

Gayle in MD
07-29-2006, 07:30 AM
They have used this tactic so many times you'd think their supporters would see through it by now, but, as you will read in my new book, "BRAINLESS" an expose' on Bush Supporters, they prefer to maintian a positive mental attitude, LMAO!

They did this same thing when the Democrats called for a reasonable exit plan from Iraq, labeling the Democrats as cut and run, labeling war heroes as cowards.

Ho hum, Bush lies, thousands die, republicans vote, poor people choke, hurricans hit, Bush sits, the trade center falls, Bush stalls, Civil wars rise, Rumsfeld denies, insurgency grows, Cheney says last throes, Hezbollah arms, Rice plays Brahms, Isreal attacks, Bush sits back, Pay as you go ending, republicans still spending, people want a voice, it's Karl Rove's choice, Bush is crowing, Debt is growing, Deficits rise, republicans hide, Middle class dies, Billionaires thrive, Republicans lead, Democracy leaves.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Stretch
07-30-2006, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> They have used this tactic so many times you'd think their supporters would see through it by now, but, as you will read in my new book, "BRAINLESS" an expose' on Bush Supporters, they prefer to maintian a positive mental attitude, LMAO!

They did this same thing when the Democrats called for a reasonable exit plan from Iraq, labeling the Democrats as cut and run, labeling war heroes as cowards.

Ho hum, Bush lies, thousands die, republicans vote, poor people choke, hurricans hit, Bush sits, the trade center falls, Bush stalls, Civil wars rise, Rumsfeld denies, insurgency grows, Cheney says last throes, Hezbollah arms, Rice plays Brahms, Isreal attacks, Bush sits back, Pay as you go ending, republicans still spending, people want a voice, it's Karl Rove's choice, Bush is crowing, Debt is growing, Deficits rise, republicans hide, Middle class dies, Billionaires thrive, Republicans lead, Democracy leaves.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Hey Gail that could be a rap song! lol Sounds like the Middle class haulicost. Ya i can remember growing up in a company town. My Dad made 25 thousand a year and that was good enough to raise 4 kids and we we didn't have much but didn't do without either. Those days are gone forever, One income families are hard pressed for the basics, and 25,ooo dollars a year is close to the poverty line. St.

Gayle in MD
07-30-2006, 07:33 AM
I'd love to know how old you are.

The Founding Fathers didn't want religion dictating politics. The Constitution was supposed to protect us from being spied on by our Government, and insure that the judicial process insured that the people had a right to privacy, and that would be maintained, regardless of circumstances, and people could not be arbitrarily singled out and lose their privacy rights, just because some politician didn't like their opinions, READ VALARIE PLAME, the breaking of our FISA laws, by a President who blames the press for reporting on the mess he has made in Iraq, and his illegal activities.

You bastardize the intention of our humanitarrian efforts as a society to provide some relief for the poorest among us, but you have no complaints about the Federal Stealing from those who can least afford to be stolen from, in order to put more money in the pockets of the rich, which you dim witted republican theorists have been convinced by the KING, is a good thing for our economy.

No Administration, since Richard Nixon, has bastardized the use of National Security in order to place itself above our laws as much as this one. No President has taken more efforts to remove our system of checks and balances, than Bush. You "anti help for the poor people" types, focuss on the few who took advantage of social programs, while completely ignorring all the poor and hungry who were helped, and able to move out of the horrendous grips of poverty. Nothing in my lifetime has resembled Communist Economic Policies more than what is happening today because of the mislead opinions that your fellow anti poor, anti gay, anti privacy, anti humanitarrian, neocon propagandists expouse.

It's fine for conservatives to encourage Corporate thieves to send our jobs out of the country, gouge us at the cash register for the sake of their exhorbitant retirement gifts, and unheard of profit margins, hide their own money in the Carribbean in order to avoid paying the price for doing business in America, slurp up all the tax cuts that George Bush has thrown their way, and import cheap labor into this country to drive down the wages of the American worker, destroy the Unions, the only voice that the exploited American Worker ever had, but just be damned sure that the middle class and the poor loose all their opportunity to advance by slanting our economic policies to benefit the extremely wealthy, and make damn sure that we send all the children of the poor and middle class to go and fight in the neocon illegal immoral wars that line the pockets of the rich fascist pigs in this country. And you want to make a point about no minimum wage? AH AH AH AH...Pahleze, my sides are splitting. Your head is where the sun don't shine.

Gayle in Md.

Sid_Vicious
07-30-2006, 07:56 AM
TAP-TAP-TAP..sid

pooltchr
07-30-2006, 08:32 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I'd love to know how old you are.

The Founding Fathers didn't want religion dictating politics. <font color="red"> Actually, they didn't want government to endorse one religeon as a national religeon. </font color> The Constitution was supposed to protect us from being spied on by our Government, and insure that the judicial process insured that the people had a right to privacy, and that would be maintained, regardless of circumstances, and people could not be arbitrarily singled out and lose their privacy rights, just because some politician didn't like their opinions, READ VALARIE PLAME, the breaking of our FISA laws, by a President who blames the press for reporting on the mess he has made in Iraq, and his illegal activities. <font color="red"> Actually, the constitution was supposed to outline specific areas where the federal government would be in control...and that anything not specifically mentioned would become an issue for the states. It hasn't been doing very well in that area in many years, theough many administrations. </font color>

You bastardize the intention of our humanitarrian efforts as a society to provide some relief for the poorest among us, <font color="red"> I just don't want to be forced by the government to do it. I think humanaterian efforts are great...and should be done voluntarily...not through force. </font color> but you have no complaints about the Federal Stealing from those who can least afford to be stolen from, in order to put more money in the pockets of the rich, <font color="red"> The government "steals" far more from the rich in the form of taxes than it does from the poor, many of whom doen't even pay any taxes. </font color> which you dim witted republican <font color="red"> name calling isn't necessary, but you just can't seem to help yourself, can you? </font color> theorists have been convinced by the KING, is a good thing for our economy.

You "anti help for the poor people" types, focuss on the few who took advantage of social programs, while completely ignorring all the poor and hungry who were helped, and able to move out of the horrendous grips of poverty. <font color="red"> again...I'm all for helping out the poor...just not through the federal government. Washington can not run any program efficiently, and every give-away program they operate opens up for more corruption and abuse and wasted tax dollars. </font color> Nothing in my lifetime has resembled Communist Economic Policies more than what is happening today because of the mislead opinions that your fellow anti poor, anti gay, anti privacy, anti humanitarrian, neocon propagandists expouse. <font color="red"> Once again, I will waste time and try to educate you. The basis of communism is that everything belongs to the state, and they will distribute it to the people as needed. Communism would be taxing the rich and then giving it away to the poor. From what you are saying, I would think Communism would be something you support wholeheartedly! </font color>

It's fine for conservatives to encourage Corporate thieves to send our jobs out of the country, gouge us at the cash register <font color="red"> Wal-Mart offers the lowest prices, which is hardly gouging you at the cash register, and you fight even allowing one in your neighborhood. </font color> for the sake of their exhorbitant retirement gifts, and unheard of profit margins, hide their own money in the Carribbean in order to avoid paying the price for doing business in America, slurp up all the tax cuts that George Bush has thrown their way, and import cheap labor into this country to drive down the wages of the American worker, destroy the Unions, the only voice that the exploited American Worker ever had, but just be damned sure that the middle class and the poor loose all their opportunity to advance by slanting our economic policies to benefit the extremely wealthy, and make damn sure that we send all the children of the poor and middle class to go and fight in the neocon illegal immoral wars <font color="red"> I heard this morning that John McCain's son enlisted in the Marines this week </font color> that line the pockets of the rich fascist pigs <font color="red"> You just can't stand it when someone is successful in business and makes some money. It just isn't fair!!!!! </font color> in this country. And you want to make a point about no minimum wage? <font color="red"> People should be paid what they are worth....PERIOD! </font color> AH AH AH AH...Pahleze, my sides are splitting. <font color="red"> I think your head is splitting as well...no other explanation for the loss of brain power you have obviously suffered. </font color> Your head is where the sun don't shine. <font color="red"> Now there is a case of the pot calling the kettle black if I've ever seen one!!! </font color>

<font color="red"> You are just a pitiful joke on here. </font color>

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

llotter
07-30-2006, 02:01 PM
Gayle, it is always nice reading your posts even though I seldom find much with which I can agree.

First, I am just about as disgusted with GWB and most of the Republicans as you are and would never support anyone who wants to increase the size and scope of our government.
It is not conservatives that are running up the spending and the deficit, it is politicians calling themselves conservative but are really quite liberal, i.e., want government to play a bigger role in everyone’s lives. Many conservatives have supported GWB not because they totally agree with him on his agenda but because they are looking to him to give the courts a more conservative tilt, and in that respect, I guess he has had a good influence from the conservative point of view. In addition, they have been in favor of tax cuts generally but I think they are wrong on this issue if they overlook the huge spending increases that have taken place in his tenure. The famous conservative economist, Milton Friedman says there is little difference between taxing and borrowing to raise revenue, the real problem is the amount of government spending, and I agree with this.

In my opinion, Gayle, the Left has essentially won the argument and whether Republicans or Democrats get elected, more government spending will result, hence more fraud, waste, corruption, and all the other things you list as being bad. If you listen to the Dems even today, they are still looking for even more spending. There is no problem in their world that can’t be solved with more public spending, aside, of course, from the military which they insist on cutting to the bone (instead of peace through strength, it is appeasement from weakness).

I don’t think it is valid criticism of conservative thinking if you continually point to modern Republicans and their economic policies. They are big spenders and therefore, they are not conservative, by definition, even if they insist on calling themselves conservative for political purposes. In fact, they have given traditional conservatism a bad name as you are so happy to point out. The current vernacular is neo-conservative, which means ‘big government conservatism’ that is to say, liberal. The neo-cons are really led by a bunch of liberals who are still liberal on most every issue except the military and foreign policy and have successfully duped traditional conservatives by pushing tax cuts and a strong military. It shows just how successful the Left has been since Marx, unfortunately.

Establishing the right to other people’s money to pay for your healthcare or education or your hearing bill or your food, etc. has become acceptable in modern times. That all wealth, no matter who earned it, really belongs to the State (from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs) to be spent as the majority or loud minority sees fit, is a prescription for disaster and that is what I am predicting. We already see the education system crumbling, both Social Security and Medicare verging on bankruptcy, along with so many more unfunded guarantees that our government has forced succeeding generations to pay. These ‘entitlement’ programs are the main cause of out-of-control spending, taking up nearly two thirds of the federal budget and it certainly didn’t help when the fat-cat Republicans added to the problem with the prescription drug program. Of course, my primary concern is not just that all these programs end up as ineffectual and counter-productive but rather that they undermine the personal responsibility of individuals, an essential attribute of a free society.

Your criticism of the conservatives based on their stand against abortion right or gay rights or other moral issues does have some superficial logic, i.e., if you are to be free, that should at least mean that the government should not be interfering in personal affairs by imposing religious beliefs through the force of law. But from the conservative point of view, just the reverse has been happening. There has been a frontal assault on Christianity for at least the last half century by our government and this has resulted in some effort by the Right to redress this attack, much of it coming from the courts but instigated by the Left. Traditional conservatives believe, and I think rightly, that Western Civilization is the great success that it is directly because of our Judeo-Christian heritage. The very well-spring of the concept of personal freedom being endowed by the Creator comes from the deep are very rich heritage and it is thanks to this great revelation that the West has become so successful. The State’s efforts to delegitimize Christianity by taking prayer out of the public schools, doing away with Christmas and Easter, legalizing abortion, and even setting up the Welfare State, largely displacing charities, can rightly be viewed as attacks on our essentially religious heritage. Marx certainly made a point that religion is the opiate of the people and wherever you have concentrated political power, religion becomes its nemesis. Nietzsche, the famous German philosopher, recognized that ‘if God is dead, anything is possible’ and thus spawned Nazism. The Christians essentially agree with Nietzsche on this point. Man, left alone, without reference to God can turn good and evil, right and wrong, totally upside down and there will be no morality other than whatever can be ‘sold’ at the moment. I think we are seeing a lot of that now in what is referred to as Political Correctness where political popularity easily overrules truth.

I do appreciate the criticism, Gayle and I try to make my case as clearly as I can given time and space limits. I hope we can avoid personal attacks and bumper sticker slogans and stick to the underlying debate.

Sincerely,

Qtec
07-30-2006, 05:01 PM
LMAO. You are cute! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif Geez, what a BSer!

[ QUOTE ]
It is not conservatives that are running up the spending and the deficit, it is politicians calling themselves conservative but are really quite liberal <hr /></blockquote>

LOL. And I thought they were Republicans! Crazy me. Now that you mention it, maybe you are right, maybe its all the Liberals fault?

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, Gayle, the Left has essentially won the argument <hr /></blockquote>

Do you know what the argument is?
Do you concede that fact that Iraq was never a threat and that the present Govt manipulated intelligence in order to convince the US into supporting an unjustifiable war?

[ QUOTE ]

don’t think it is valid criticism of conservative thinking if you continually point to modern Republicans and their economic policies. They are big spenders and therefore, they are not conservative, by definition, even if they insist on calling themselves conservative for political purposes. In fact, they have given traditional conservatism a bad name as you are so happy to point out. The current vernacular is neo-conservative, which means ‘big government conservatism’ that is to say, liberal. The neo-cons are really led by a bunch of liberals who are still liberal on most every issue except the military and foreign policy and have successfully duped traditional conservatives by pushing tax cuts and a strong military. It shows just how successful the Left has been since Marx, unfortunately. <hr /></blockquote>

LMAO. I can't comment on thsi crap I dont know where to start!

Q.....Geez............ /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

pooltchr
07-30-2006, 06:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I can't comment on thsi crap I dont know where to start!

Q.....Geez............ /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Perhaps you can't comment because you can't come up with a legitimate arguement. He has made some very valid points, and done so in a manner that backs up what he is saying with facts. Hard to argue with that kind of logic, isn't it???
Steve

Gayle in MD
07-30-2006, 07:36 PM
Gayle, it is always nice reading your posts even though I seldom find much with which I can agree.

That doesn't surprise me, I'm not into intellectualizing myself away from the facts.

First, I am just about as disgusted with GWB and most of the Republicans as you are and would never support anyone who wants to increase the size and scope of our government.
It is not conservatives that are running up the spending and the deficit, it is politicians calling themselves conservative but are really quite liberal, i.e., want government to play a bigger role in everyone’s lives. Oh, so you're saying it's the liberals who want control over who gets birth control, who gets their conversations spied on, who gets to pull the plug on their brain dead relatives, who gets to chant their religious beliefs, or non beliefs every morning in the school house, who can buy prescription drugs from a country who give them better deal, whether scientists are allowed to publish grave dangers to our environment without the government insisting on altering their findings? Pahleeze, although you may like to call these infringements on personal rights, and government interference, and dictation liberal agendas, they certainly are not. they are conservative agendas. Don't try to label them liberal.


Many conservatives have supported GWB not because they totally agree with him on his agenda but because they are looking to him to give the courts a more conservative tilt, and in that respect, I guess he has had a good influence from the conservative point of view.

That's right, they want the supreme court to help them to dictate to the whole country according to their personal religious belief system as to what people in this country can and cannot do with their own bodies. That isn't government interference into personal lives????



In addition, they have been in favor of tax cuts generally but I think they are wrong on this issue if they overlook the huge spending increases that have taken place in his tenure. The famous conservative economist, Milton Friedman says there is little difference between taxing and borrowing to raise revenue, the real problem is the amount of government spending, and I agree with this.

Government spending has been brought to a whole new level thanks to the conservative agenda. Borrowing from foriegn countries, also has been the method used by the conservatives in power to pay for their tax cuts, and pass the bill on to future generations.

In my opinion, Gayle, the Left has essentially won the argument and whether Republicans or Democrats get elected, more government spending will result, hence more fraud, waste, corruption, and all the other things you list as being bad.

More right wing rhetoric. No administration in my lifetime has been as currupt as this one. Don't try to lay that at the feet of liberals, or Democrats. Let's stick to the present gross offenders, the Republican Party, and what they have managed to waste, blow, and porkbarrell along in the last five and a half years, which all economists agree, has been unprecedented.

If you listen to the Dems even today, they are still looking for even more spending.

You can't run a country without using its money for public needs, education, roads and infrastructure, etc., so unless you expect this country to run itself without using ANY tax money for public needs, don't expect to parlay Democratic complaints about the corruption which has led the republican economic policies, into some kind of "They do it too" argument. I'd rather see some of my tax money go to helping the disadvantaged, than to see it used to blow up innocent people, line the pockets of the rich, and support a bunch corporate fascists.


There is no problem in their world that can’t be solved with more public spending, aside, of course, from the military which they insist on cutting to the bone (instead of peace through strength, it is appeasement from weakness).

Peace through strength? HA HA HA HA....Just how peaceful do you think the world is right now? Yeah, let's use more money for bombs, just what we need in this world. Let's send more of it over to the East to support a bunch of fanatical religious nuts, like Saddam, and many others, who we finance, and then have to have our people die later trying to get the same fanatics out of power.

I don’t think it is valid criticism of conservative thinking if you continually point to modern Republicans and their economic policies. They are big spenders and therefore, they are not conservative, by definition, even if they insist on calling themselves conservative for political purposes. In fact, they have given traditional conservatism a bad name as you are so happy to point out.


I suppose now that you are going to tell me that 45% of those who call themselves conservative are not really people who believe in the bible literally. Sorry friend, you can try to find a way to wiggle out of being what you are, but your statements about economics give you away. You're a right wing republican nut!

The current vernacular is neo-conservative, which means ‘big government conservatism’ that is to say, liberal. The neo-cons are really led by a bunch of liberals who are still liberal on most every issue except the military and foreign policy and have successfully duped traditional conservatives by pushing tax cuts and a strong military. It shows just how successful the Left has been since Marx, unfortunately.

This is just so muich BS on your part, I won't even waste time proving you wrong. I knew that conservatives hated liberals, but now, since your failed policies, and your failed president have begun to be exposed, you're going to change the meaning of the word conservative in order to save face, and say it was really liberal policies that destroyed the country, occupied a a country which never attacked us and was no threat, ran up a huge deficit, used the tax system to line the pockets of their rich fascist corporate friends, ha ha ha...hear that folks, it's all the liberals fault, ha ha ha...AH HA HA HA...this is really choice!

Establishing the right to other people’s money to pay for your healthcare or education or your hearing bill or your food, etc. has become acceptable in modern times. That all wealth, no matter who earned it, really belongs to the State (from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs) to be spent as the majority or loud minority sees fit, is a prescription for disaster and that is what I am predicting. We already see the education system crumbling, both Social Security and Medicare verging on bankruptcy, along with so many more unfunded guarantees that our government has forced succeeding generations to pay. These ‘entitlement’ programs are the main cause of out-of-control spending, taking up nearly two thirds of the federal budget and it certainly didn’t help when the fat-cat Republicans added to the problem with the prescription drug program. We're spending 1.6 billion a day on an un-necessary war, and you want to moan about a measley prescription drug program? Typical conservative thinking.


Of course, my primary concern is not just that all these programs end up as ineffectual and counter-productive but rather that they undermine the personal responsibility of individuals, an essential attribute of a free society.

You have completely convoluted the reality of what social security, medicare and medicaid, head start programs, food for hungry children in this country, and many other successful benefits for the citizens of this country have accomplished, and which made this country a great nation. A nation which does not consider those citizens who are trapped in poverty from birth, can never be a great nation. An essential attribute of a free society, is compassion, and charity. You can't rely on a bunch of greedy corrupt religious organizations to handle all the needs of the poor. It won't work, is unrealistic, and greedy, to say the least.

Your criticism of the conservatives based on their stand against abortion right or gay rights or other moral issues does have some superficial logic, i.e., if you are to be free, that should at least mean that the government should not be interfering in personal affairs by imposing religious beliefs through the force of law. But from the conservative point of view, just the reverse has been happening. There has been a frontal assault on Christianity for at least the last half century by our government and this has resulted in some effort by the Right to redress this attack, much of it coming from the courts but instigated by the Left.

Oh? You prefer when it is instigated by the right, I suppose. Look, nobody is trying to wipe out Christianity. You fail to recognize that there are some autonomous, educated, thinking people in this country who are repulsed by any suggestion that they take anything on blind faith, and for that reason, do not want their children exposed to the chanting dogma, societal pressures to conform to the ideology of certain religous people, who are not secure enough in their belief, that they must seek to have all others agree that they are right and correct in their interpretation of who and what GOD is. The public school is no place for religious dogma, chanting, brain washing by the religious right, or pressure to conform to the religious rituals of the religious right. That's why we have demominational schools. You want prayers every morning. then put your kids in the schools which are run and operated by your personal religious leaning, just don't try to dictate that all others must pray as you pray. SOME of us in this country, teach our children to think for themselves, reason for themselves, discover for themselves, whom they think God is, and what He wants, and htat information is available to all without the interference of any religion, or doctrine, or mythology 9of group think. Some parents advise their children to avoid any suggestion that they cancel out their reasoniong power, which was given to them by God.

Traditional conservatives believe, and I think rightly, that Western Civilization is the great success that it is directly because of our Judeo-Christian heritage.

That's nice, perhaps you can pray away this massive deficit which was largely a result of your Judeo-Christian voting.


The very well-spring of the concept of personal freedom being endowed by the Creator comes from the deep are very rich heritage and it is thanks to this great revelation that the West has become so successful.

More total religious dogma BS.


The State’s efforts to delegitimize Christianity by taking prayer out of the public schools, doing away with Christmas and Easter, legalizing abortion, and even setting up the Welfare State, largely displacing charities, can rightly be viewed as attacks on our essentially religious heritage.

Hey, I haven't seen the state lock up anyone for praying, queitly, for their own self, only stop the process of forcing everyone else to do so. I haven't seen anyone locked up for celebrating Christmas, or Easter, or any other religious celebration. I haven't seen anyone forbidden to give away money for charities, and for your, and Steve's information, this country was not founded in the spirit of forcing people to do, or not do, anything regarding their personal religious philosophy. This country was an effort to completely remove religion from Government. As Jefferson stated, the separation should be complete, and anything else, threatens both government, and religion. Religious freedom does not meant that all are forced to do as the religious do.
Marx certainly made a point that religion is the opiate of the people and wherever you have concentrated political power, religion becomes its nemesis. Nietzsche, the famous German philosopher, recognized that ‘if God is dead, anything is possible’ and thus spawned Nazism. The Christians essentially agree with Nietzsche on this point. Man, left alone, without reference to God can turn good and evil, right and wrong, totally upside down and there will be no morality other than whatever can be ‘sold’ at the moment. I think we are seeing a lot of that now in what is referred to as Political Correctness where political popularity easily overrules truth.

Really, I think that when people are led by fear, followers lay down and die. Also, I think that I have never seen as much lying, dying and destruction caused by anything or anyone more so than what I have seen since Evangelicals, and the Bush dictators took this country over. The beauty of this country is that all should be allowed to think freely, speak out freely, and be left alone by the government. Go ask Joe wilson and Valarie, go ask the scientists who have been intimidated by the Bush administration, their papers on global warming altered, by none other than George Bush's Energy Policy Zar, who is an attorney, who was a former lobbyist for the oil companies. You don't have a Clue what is going on in this country, but I can see why you would endeavor to use semantics to distance your convoluted conservative philosophies from all the failures of the right, all the religious efforts to dictate to others, all the raging deficits, the greddy policies which favor the rich over the needy,.... bottom line, don't try to NOW say that conservatives, are really liberals. It won't work! Not with me, atleast. Go peddle your BS somewhere else. Tell it to the man who lived in the whale.

I do appreciate the criticism, Gayle and I try to make my case as clearly as I can given time and space limits. I hope we can avoid personal attacks and bumper sticker slogans and stick to the underlying debate.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry, I have a tendency to get impatient when someone tries to fly a boatload of BS by me, and especially, when they try to blame the mess that conservatives have made out of this country, by switching political titles.

Sincerely,

Gayle in Md.

nAz
07-30-2006, 08:48 PM
I believe 90% of our troubles stem from religion... or rather by the people that do things in the name of their religion.
I do not have a problem with a person trying to find religious enlightenment, i have a problem with people who clamed that they have found it.

you know i do not understand why people always try to argue that Americas founding fathers had strong religious beliefs. we all know that, What is argued is, they werent always motivated by religious (christian) beliefs that are the same as todays Conservative evangelicals christians. also that being motivated by religious beliefs is not the same thing as trying to create a government that is based upon religious beliefs. I do not understand why some people fail to i consider the possibility that our "devout" Christians founding fathers might have wanted to establish a national government where religious doctrines would play no role.
I like to think our country was doing pretty well untill religion started openly creeping back into our goverment.

wolfdancer
07-30-2006, 09:50 PM
Gayle, you ain't never heard of Doublethink?
"The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them. ... To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary again, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies—all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercise doublethink. For by using the word one admits that one is tampering with reality; by a fresh act of doublethink one erases this knowledge; and so on indefinitely, with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth. (pages 35, 176-177)"

I won't bore you by listing all the dualisms that have been listed so far....
I added his name to the "ignore" list after just reading a couple....wish I had done the same with that other guy.

Doublethink

As Orwell explains in the book, the Party could not protect its iron grip on power without degrading its people and exposing them to constant propaganda. Yet, knowledge of this brutality and deception, even within the Party itself, could lead to disgusted collapse of the state from within. For this reason, Orwell's idealized government used a complex system of "reality control". Though the novel is most famous for its pervasive surveillance of daily life, reality control meant that the population could be controlled and manipulated merely through the alteration of everyday language and thought. Newspeak was the method for controlling thought through language; Doublethink was the method of controlling thought directly.

I'm sure Mr. Orwell had Fox News in mind, when he coined "Newspeak"....but even he could not have imagined O'Reilly.

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 04:59 AM
Here's a fact for you, in the state which took it upon itself to raise the minimum wage, (Ohio, I think) with their own legislation, it was proven that the higher minimum wage, improved the economy of the state. That is a fact, not that I think you have any interest in, or ability to digest facts.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

DickLeonard
07-31-2006, 05:07 AM
Gayle Simply Brilliant. Eg8r will hate these words I love you.Love####

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 05:14 AM
Tap, Tap, Tap....I'm with you Nazi! Here's a hint of how to uncover a true right wing, conservative, religious nut, "Our way is THE way, and all must fall in line"

Gayle... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 05:20 AM
I remember, and let us not forget, in Orwell's masterpiece, the Government's use of the eternal war, and resulting eternal fear which laid the groundwork for a passive, non-thinking society....sound familiar... War On Terror

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 05:26 AM
Dick, we really need a kiss icon on here, for all we loving liberals, and a hooded terrorist icon, for the other types, or maybe, an icon with dollar signs for eyes, with a blue turban...LMAO...

I love you too, Dick...

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 05:36 AM
Hi Fasteddy,
Our Government, before Bush took over, had laws, for one thing, which the President was expected to abide by, instead of stealthily destroying, them, and a Constitution, which had remained largely in tact, for over two hundred years, but that was before our Government was taken over by Corporate fascists, desguised as born again Christians. /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Gayle in Md.

eg8r
07-31-2006, 05:41 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Gayle Simply Brilliant. Eg8r will hate these words I love you.Love#### <hr /></blockquote> Dick, every master should love his dog. It is good to see you mention it out loud. Now would you please wash that nasty thing, you should see the smut she posts here. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

eg8r
07-31-2006, 05:45 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Tap, Tap, Tap....I'm with you Nazi! <hr /></blockquote> Can't you even be nice to those who generally agree with you. Geesh. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Call him Nazee, Nazi sounds too formal. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif Just kidding.

eg8r

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 05:51 AM
Oh, and another thing, just FYI....Milton Friedman was, and is, a Liberal ....

And...

It is the Republicans who are threatening to use their newly created Nuclear Option to destroy the historical and legal, Constitutional use of fillibuster, in order to further bastardize the wishes and Constitutionally protected check and balances, if representatives don't fall in line and approve their religious activist right wing judges, the next one of which, for Appellate Court Judge, will be the one of the people who supports torture, Bet you don't even know who he is. President Clinton did not appoint extremists to the Supreme Court, his appointments came from the middle, but then, his base wasn't pushing for a dictatorship, it's the Republicans, who have proven themselves to be the power mongers, who refuse to abide by our laws, and try to bastardize our Constitution.

Gayle in Md.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

pooltchr
07-31-2006, 06:27 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Tap, Tap, Tap....I'm with you Nazi! Here's a hint of how to uncover a true right wing, conservative, religious nut, "Our way is THE way, and all must fall in line"

Gayle... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif <hr /></blockquote>

So I guess this means that you, a "loving liberal" would lovingly accept other points of view, knowing that your way may not be the only way. If not, then according to your post, I guess that would make you a "left wing liberal nut". After all...you think anyone who disagrees with you must be a fanatic right wing religeous neo-con repiglican......but that's ok. We know it's just you being Gayle...nobody takes it seriously...except you.
Steve

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 06:44 AM
From Fasteddy's post...

quote

"Is everyone here starting to think that gayle may be right?"

You obviously don't speak for "Everybody" although, you constantly claim to do so. That's called narcissism...the psychological definition..."one who cannot distinguish between ones own interpretation of factual reality, and that of the rest of the world."

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
07-31-2006, 08:06 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> From Fasteddy's post...

quote

"Is everyone here starting to think that gayle may be right?"

You obviously don't speak for "Everybody" although, you constantly claim to do so. That's called narcissism...the psychological definition..."one who cannot distinguish between ones own interpretation of factual reality, and that of the rest of the world."

Gayle in Md.

<hr /></blockquote>

You are getting paranoid and delusional.

Here is my exact quote:
"And no, everyone here is not starting to think that Gayle is right."

I did not speak for anyone else. The question was "does everyone..." and my response was "no...not everyone"

Obviously, you have a problem actually comprehending what you read.
Steve

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 08:08 AM
http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/misq1.htm


There has been a frontal assault on Christianity for at least the last half century by our government and this has resulted in some effort by the Right to redress this attack, much of it coming from the courts but instigated by the Left. Traditional conservatives believe, and I think rightly, that Western Civilization is the great success that it is directly because of our Judeo-Christian heritage. The very well-spring of the concept of personal freedom being endowed by the Creator comes from the deep are very rich heritage and it is thanks to this great revelation that the West has become so successful.

There has been no assault. If you study, you will find, there have been efforts to preserve the intentions of our Founding Fathers. Our government was not founded on Christianity, now did it intend that Christianity be its dictating force. fortunately, liberals have made an effort to prevent the Christian Right from destroying the protection of our Separation Of church and State, and our right to freedom of personal choice in personal matters, a right which Bush and the religious right is vigorously chipping away at by filling the Supreme Court with activist Christian Judges such as Alito and Thomas.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 08:13 AM
We know it's just you being Gayle...nobody takes it seriously...except you.
Steve

Try and keep up with what you write....and what I'm answering to...I know it's hard for you, but give it a try!

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
07-31-2006, 08:38 AM
I think that Steve suffers from LaTourette's Syndrome.
(Georges Gilles de la Tourette first diagnosed this 100 years ago)
It's endemic among male Republican House Members...thought to be triggered by the duality of defending one GWB, while quietly believing the man is a clear and present danger

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 08:55 AM
LMAO...walking, talking oxymorons...you had it just right a while back...ROTFLMAO... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Will the real conservatives pahleeze stand up!

Their new effort on how to support George Bush's idiocy, and still get re-elected...

"Oh, that was dem other conservatives...we is the good kind..."

Confusion is the work of the devil....

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
07-31-2006, 08:57 AM
I'm so forgetful...are we now fighting Eurasia, or Eastasia?
And who is the head of the Ministry of Information, Ann, Bill, or Robert Murdoch?
And from the Right Wing Handbook:
# The broad mass of the nation ... will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one.” — Adolf Hitler, in his 1925 book Mein Kampf.
# “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” — Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels. [5]
# “Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Göring during the Nuremberg Trials.
Terrible thing what Bush/Cheney have done to a once proud party

wolfdancer
07-31-2006, 09:39 AM
Gayle, this guy's "beliefs" are so farfetched, that I thought he's just here trying to stir the pot....after reading his "take" on labor unions, I don't bother to read any of his political ravings. If I want to read some crazy s**t, I'll read "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest", or anything that William Goldman wrote.
I read your reply....good post, but you can't reason with an extremist.
I'm always amazed that first they apply the "liberal" tag to anyone that refuses to believe in Ingsoc, and a liberal is then equated with a Communist, etc.
they think liberal means egalitarianism, and Hillery is Diana Moon Glampers, the "Handicapper General" in charge of
overseeing that everyone is "equal" ( the right wing fear about wealth redistribution)
And from the same book, we can easily see the following, accredited to Bush:
[ I am the Emperor!" cried Harrison. "Do you hear? I am the Emperor! Everybody must do what I say at once!" He stamped his foot and the studio shook. "Even as I stand here" he bellowed, "crippled, hobbled, sickened - I am a greater ruler than any man who ever lived! Now watch me become what I can become!" ]
Good old George Orwell, so many things that he wrote of....that we can draw comparisions to today's chilling reality

wolfdancer
07-31-2006, 09:56 AM
Don't confuse him with facts.
That's news to me though about Ohio...it was a Republican state, when I lived there (Taft, etc). So,it's surprising that they would take the initiative.
Fact is though that when people earn a decent wage....they become "consumers" of commodities beyong the bare necessities to sustain life....that's what created the vast middle-class, soon to be disbanded.
But let's not confuse mininum wage with a decent wage.
And, no, I'm not advocating that they get paid $30 an hour....just the reality of surviving on wages below the poverty line.

As you know....Ed does not respond well..... to facts
just adds a few ad hominems, and then it's off on a different tangent,and frenzied thoughts to follow.......

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 10:16 AM
Jack,
I'm pretty sure it was Ohio, but, I could be wrong. I do a lot of reading, and I know that the state in question that legislated their own raising of the minimum wage, did a study, and proved that it helped the economy a great deal.

I am amazed everyday by the false information that is propagated by the right, their followers, the republican party, the neocon movement, the right wing press, and the Bush Administration. Our present impossible, unwinnable war in Iraq could never have been pulled off without all the lies that those I have just mentioned, were in concert with, and responsible for. Bad news is, they're still at it.


I think even George Orwell would be surprised at how thoroughly this administration represents his novel, and how effectively they have managed to create the very non thinking followers which he wrote about.

Gayle in Md.

think it was Ohio, but those fly over states all run together for me...LOL.

pooltchr
07-31-2006, 12:23 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Jack,
I'm pretty sure it was Ohio, but, I could be wrong. <font color="red"> You? Wrong??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif </font color>

I am amazed everyday by the false information that is propagated by the right,
<font color="red"> so the only true information is that which is propagated by the left????????????? </font color>
Gayle in Md.

think it was Ohio, but those fly over states all run together for me...LOL. <font color="red"> You must have been out campaigning for more give-away legislation when they held geography class. That's ok, those people in those "fly over states" probably don't give a flip about what happens in your little state either. But you have managed to insult someone beside the south this time, so I see you don't discriminate when you insult people. </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 12:40 PM
Hey, get a life! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif Do you ever post anything of any literary value on here, other than insults.

You can't even keep up with your own statements. Delusional again? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

eg8r
07-31-2006, 12:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Do you ever post anything of any literary value on here <hr /></blockquote> Do you?

eg8r

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 12:49 PM
Naz,
Truer words were never spoken.

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

pooltchr
07-31-2006, 05:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Hey, get a life! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/cool.gif Do you ever post anything of any literary value on here, other than insults.

You can't even keep up with your own statements. Delusional again? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

<hr /></blockquote>

Gayle...being the fair minded person I am, I must give credit where credit is due. When it comes to insulting people, you could give me the orange crush and still win.
Steve

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 09:20 PM
That's the only thing you can grasp, since that's the only way you ever respond to anything. It's a Republican thing. Twist the truth, turn statements into an extreme interpretation, skirt the facts, avoid any pointed answers, and insult the poster. Good description of you, Deeman, and ...

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman3
08-01-2006, 04:17 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> That's the only thing you can grasp, since that's the only way you ever respond to anything. It's a Republican thing. Twist the truth, turn statements into an extreme interpretation, skirt the facts, avoid any pointed answers, and insult the poster. Good description of you, Deeman, and ... <font color="blue"> Gayle, Gayle, Gayle... </font color>

/ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif <hr /></blockquote>

DickLeonard
08-01-2006, 05:20 AM
Wolfdancer I have said all along that the Republicans were using Herman Gorings blueprints, for taking us to War. Except in our case we were never called Unpatriotic. I found that word hard to swallow.

Of course after investigating Karl Rove and finding out his grandfather was high up in the Third Reich, all Karl had to do was go to the family library to get that blueprint.####

moblsv
08-01-2006, 08:10 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I remember, and let us not forget, in Orwell's masterpiece, the Government's use of the eternal war, and resulting eternal fear which laid the groundwork for a passive, non-thinking society....sound familiar... War On Terror

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

I finished re-reading 1984 last night. The last time I read this was when I was about 14 years old and it didn't mean all that much to me back then. Rereading it today, particularly given the current political climate, was much more meaningful.

This book very much deserves the classic status it has acquired and is probably more relevant today than it has ever been before.

wolfdancer
08-01-2006, 09:44 AM
Dick, I found that Bush family history very troubling....from the Nazi dealings, to the failed business dealings of all three brothers, that cost their investors, and the taxpayers millions.
Besides being war profiteers, maybe they were also hedging their bets, on WWII.....if the Axis had won....they would be rewarded by the Germans.
And they might be hedging the bets again, with their Arab dealings....????
Here's some interesting reading on one of their investment companies...I.G. Farben
Collaboration with the Nazis

During the planning of the invasion of Czechoslovakia and Poland, IG Farben cooperated closely with the Nazi officials and directed which chemical plants should be secured and delivered to IG Farben.

In 1941, an investigation exposed a "marriage" between Standard Oil Co.(re:Rockefeller) and I.G. Farben. It also brought new evidence concerning complex price and marketing agreements between duPont, a major investor in and producer of leaded gasoline, U.S. Industrial Alcohol Co. and their subsidiary, Cuba Distilling Co. The investigation was eventually dropped, like dozens of others in many different kinds of industries, due to the need to enlist industry support in the war effort. However, the top directors of many oil companies agreed to resign and oil industry stocks in molasses companies were sold off as part of a compromise worked out.

IG Farben built a factory for producing synthetic oil and rubber (from coal) in Auschwitz, which was the beginning of SS activity and camps in this location during the Holocaust. At its peak in 1944, this factory made use of 83,000 forced laborers. The pesticide Zyklon B, for which IG Farben held the patent, was manufactured by Degesch (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Schädlingsbekämpfung), a company owned equal 42.2 percent in shares by IG Farben and which had IG managers in its Managing Committee.

Of the 24 directors of IG Farben indicted in the so-called IG Farben Trial (1947-1948) before a U.S. military tribunal at the subsequent Nuremberg Trials, 13 were sentenced to prison terms between 1½ and eight years.
[edit]

Break-up and Liquidation

Due to the severity of the war crimes committed by IG Farben during World War II, the company was considered to be too corrupt to be allowed to continue to exist, and the allies considered confiscating all of its assets and putting it out of business. Instead, in 1951, the company was split up into the original constituent companies. The four largest quickly bought the smaller ones, and today only Agfa, BASF, and Bayer remain, while Hoechst merged with the French Rhône-Poulenc Rorer to form Aventis, now based in Strasbourg, France.

After the Holocaust, I.G. Farben joined with Americans to develop chemical warfare agents. Together they founded the "Chemagrow Corporation" in Kansas City, Missouri. The Chemagrow Corporation employed German and American specialists for the U.S. Army Chemical Corps. Dr. Otto Bayer was I.G. Farben's research director. He developed and tested chemical warfare agents with Dr. Gerhard Schrader.

Even though the company was officially liquidated in 1952, it continued to be traded on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange as a trust, holding a few real estate assets until it was finally declared bankrupt on November 10, 2003 by its liquidators, after contributing 500,000 DM (£ 160,000 or € 255,646) towards a foundation for former captive laborers under the Nazi regime and the remaining property, worth DM 21 million (£ 6.7 million or € 10.7 million) going to a buyer. During this lengthy period, the holding company had been continually criticized for failing to pay any compensation to the former laborers, which was the stated reason for its continued existence after 1952. The company, in turn, blamed the ongoing legal disputes with the former captive laborers as being the reason it could not be legally dissolved and the remaining assets distributed as reparations. Each year, the company's annual meeting in Frankfurt was the site of demonstrations by hundreds of protesters.
Off the subject somewhat....but another interesting article on Standard Oil
web page (http://www.bilderberg.org/whatafel.htm)


[ QUOTE ]
To-day, as at the start, the purpose of the Standard Oil Company is the purpose of the South Improvement Company - the regulation of the price of crude and refined oil by the control of the output; and the chief means for sustaining this purpose is still that of the original scheme - a control of oil transportation giving special privileges in rates. <hr /></blockquote> That quote is dated, but I wouldn't be surprised.........

wolfdancer
08-01-2006, 09:56 AM
Interesting articles over on MSN Money concerning CEO's
One has them padding their pensions, while cutting the pensions of their employees, or just doing away with pensions
web page (http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/P125120.asp)
While raising the min Wage has been noted here as stealing

[ QUOTE ]
Consider Michael Ovitz. Although stockholders sued, the one-time Hollywood superagent gets to keep the $140 million he was paid for 14 months of work as president at Walt Disney (DIS, news, msgs). A Delaware judge ruled in mid-August that Disney's board didn't breach its responsibilities in awarding the huge severance package. <hr /></blockquote>