PDA

View Full Version : Why we are losing the WOT



Qtec
07-31-2006, 04:12 AM
video [ long] (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=Obsession%3A +What+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+About&hl=en)

This is a must watch.

Q

eg8r
07-31-2006, 05:48 AM
Don't use the word "we", you are not part of it. You are the appeaser.

eg8r

Qtec
07-31-2006, 07:03 PM
The terrorists don't see any difference between you and me. We are all infidels!
Did you watch the video?

Q

pooltchr
07-31-2006, 07:58 PM
So now we know that these people have declaired war against us...they will do anything they can to destroy us...they will kill themselves in an attempt to kill us...they are nuckin' futs!!! So why do so many say we should try to understand them? I understand enough. They want me dead, so they leave me no choice but to want them dead first. I am not concerned about their convictions. I am not concerned about their "legal rights". I am not concerned it our soldiers push the limits when the terrorists are in captivity. I am concerned that so many of them actually make it to captivity. I'm concerned that there are people who insist we follow rules of war that were written in a very different time, and that are totally ignored by the enemy. I'm concerned that our prisoners are held in Cuba and are being fed, clothed, and given a place to sleep, but our soldiers might very well have their head cut off in front of a tv camera if they are captured.

Thanks for sharing this link. It simply backs up my feelings about how the war on terror should be handled. We are treating them too good!!!!!
Steve

Dagwood
08-01-2006, 05:57 AM
I didn't get a chance to see the video that Q posted, because the connection out here is not fast enough,and I only have a limited time on the internet at any given time. But I will say, after being here for 6 months, recieving contact, interacting with the locals, and dealing with detainees, (they aren't prisoners), that there can't be a winner or loser to this war. It's an eternal stalemate. Giving reasons why we are losing or winning is pointless.
As far as how we are treating these people, if we were to treat them like the Russians did back in the 80's, wouldn't we be just like the terrorists that we are fighting? I will say that there PROBABLY have been times that soldiers have take liberties to enforce the "law" with detainees. But if we were to treat these individuals like s&%t it would look that much worse on us, and they would have another propoganda issue to voice on the radical islamic television networks such as Al-Jazira. We have to maintain our bearings and treat these people with respect, even though they will see it as being weak, because like I said earlier, there is no winning or losing, but survival in this war on Terror.

Dags

Qtec
08-01-2006, 08:51 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> So now we know that these people have declaired war against us...they will do anything they can to destroy us...they will kill themselves in an attempt to kill us...they are nuckin' futs!!! So why do so many say we should try to understand them? I understand enough. They want me dead, so they leave me no choice but to want them dead first. I am not concerned about their convictions. I am not concerned about their "legal rights". I am not concerned it our soldiers push the limits when the terrorists are in captivity. I am concerned that so many of them actually make it to captivity. I'm concerned that there are people who insist we follow rules of war that were written in a very different time, and that are totally ignored by the enemy. I'm concerned that our prisoners are held in Cuba and are being fed, clothed, and given a place to sleep, but our soldiers might very well have their head cut off in front of a tv camera if they are captured.

Thanks for sharing this link. <font color="blue"> Beliive it or not , I think I am pretty impartial.! All Ivé ever done is try to show a point of view that could be seen from the other side.
I value my freedom. I go where I want, when I want and I can have an opinion that conflicts with the ruling Govt. I don't want anyone telling me what I should think!
As long as I obey the Law and don't hurt anyone, I can do as I please. Nobody, even if they claim to be fighting for God , is going to make me submit and make me live the way THEY want me to! F*%k them, whoever they are!! </font color> It simply backs up my feelings about how the war on terror should be handled. We are treating them too good!!!!!
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve, whatever you think about me, we are on the same side. I want to defeat the terrorists[ Islamic Fascists] just as much as you do. Where I differ in your approach[ kill them all] is that I think that it will not work! Everytime you kill a terrorist but kill innocent civilians, [ collateral damage ] gives them more ammo for their propoganda war against the West and increases resentment and distrust.
Iraq is a classic example of trying to do the right thing the wrong way.
Whats happening in Lebanon now is confirming all the lies that the Jihadis use in their quest to indoctrinate the young and immpressionable. ie GW wants to conquer the ME!Its a total PR disaster! The Israelis are bombing the whole country[ a pro western country] to rubble with the consent of the USA.
How do you think that is presented on Arab TV? Not good I think. /ccboard/images/graemlins/mad.gif

If you watched the video[ Gayle? have you watched it?] you will see that countries who are supposed to be our allies are allowing extreme Moslins to preach hate! In our system, incitement to violence is a crime. Why do we still allow them to get away with this?! Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are supposed to be allies but they let this kind of extremism flourish. They are the appeasers.

It should be clear now, and Dagwood confirms this[ I think] that we are not going to win an idealogical war with 'the big stick' approach.
A bomb or a bullet does not destroy an idea.

If JC is planning to come back, now would be a good time! /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Q

eg8r
08-01-2006, 08:55 AM
My post should never have been so confusing, but you screwed it up. You are not part of the WOT, you are the appeaser.

eg8r

pooltchr
08-01-2006, 09:02 AM
Q.
First of all, I do not think badly of you. We don't always agree, but you do present your views in a civil manner. And I understand that all of us (even Gayle) want to stop terrorism.
Let me ask you this.
If we can't stop them with bombs and bullets...
If we can't change their views...
If we can't get the average muslum to come out against them...
If we can't use electronic technology to fight them...
If we keep tying the hands of those who are fighting the fight...
What method would you suggest we try to stop them?????
Steve

Gayle in MD
08-01-2006, 09:23 AM
Dagwood,
Your concerns are well founded. America once had a proud history of keeping with humanitarian standards, and rising above the low life enemies we have faced in wars, and their uncivilized tactics.

Unfortunately, the Bush administration has destroyed our National honor in more ways than just in the shameful way they have conducted their illegal, immoral war in Iraq. They have forever tarnished America's standard for high intention, and given credibility to the lies formerly told by terrorist organizations, about who we are, and what we stand for, and added fuel for their inductions of religious fanatics into their cause, adding greatly to the sheer numbers of those who threaten us.

It is further, heartbreaking, to many civilized, proud Americans, to witness the destruction our historical honor, in wartime, dismantled by the Bush Administration's terrorist-like policies. This having been the first administration-created war, under false pretenses, and cherry picked intelligence, it is no surprise that George Bush would be the first president to bring the shame of presidential approval of uncivilized American behavior, to our treatment of prisoners, and to do so in his usual method, of simply creating a new word for "Prisoner of War"
and to use unconstitutional actions in the effort to disregard congressional legislation to stop him. We have a history, and we have signed agreements, with the nations of the world, and laws regarding how we as a country view our responsibilities as human beings. This administration, and those who defend it, have destroyed all of that.

This is a very sad time for honorable, civilized Americans, when we must watch a President, and those who approve, drag our National Honor down to the level of our barbaric enemy.

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
08-01-2006, 10:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote eg8r:</font><hr> My post should never have been so confusing, but you screwed it up. You are not part of the WOT, you are the appeaser.

eg8r <hr /></blockquote>

Ed, you never dissapoint! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Is your entire vocabulary made up of RNC talking points!

YOU are the one who does not accept reality!

Q /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Gayle in MD
08-01-2006, 10:27 AM
Q,
I have never doubted your sincerety. I have admired your practice of trying to understand the viewpoints of both sides of every altercation between the warring groups, and nations.

It seems that those of us who understand that there is much more to winning, than bombs, and national polciies of adding to the death and destruction in the world, and that there is great value in diplomacy, and "The Art Of The Deal" ....are either misunderstood, or unfairly labeled.

I completely agree that our present policies are making everything worse, and simply will not work. And, one would think, that the collateral damage you speak of, would be obvious to all, by now.

When the Buildings fell in New York, I made the statement that this would be a very appropriate time for our country to build a location in which to launch a forum for intra-religious understanding and communication, where all the various religions of the world could send their leaders for the purpose of building tolerance, acceptance and understanding, between them. I thought that a location for this effort should be at the sight of the reconstructed World Trade Center. We seem to overlook the fact that a clash of religious philosophy is the root of our present problems around the world, even the fight for land, often begins with religious differences.

A policy of no communication with the terrorist organizations, leaves no other response to the problems of the world, other than war and death.

The world faces threats to our planet. Some grow from our energy issues, some grow from poverty, and some grow from ignorance, but the collision of religious philosophies has been the steadfast root of war and suffering throughout the history of the world. It is so to this day.

We are now faced with the reality that man has the ability to destroy the world with his weapons, or through irresponsibility regarding the health of the planet, through the effects of fossil fuels, and that people who we consider to be madmen, have access to those weapons. Additionally, the threat to the health of our planet is being supressed by those who stand to lose financially by taking responsibility for their continued promotion of the use of these fuels. They are blinded by their love of money, and hence, they endeavor to decieve the world. Additionally, the traditional religious suggestion that man must procreate, above all else, and the link between overpopulation, and pollution, and we are right back in the jaws of organized religion.

It is at once daunting, and terrifying when one assesses the scope of our problems. Regardless of the seriousness involved in each of them, they cannot be solved with bombs, death, and human suffering. War is hell, and War is dumb. There are never any winners, only losers, yet some men turn first to war.

I used to think the powerful nations of the world could produce men who had the brilliance, and sense of responsibility, to address and solve any problem the world would face. Now, sadly, I think that corruption, and the quest for money and power, has made such men obsolete.

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
08-01-2006, 10:33 AM
We can change their views! Thats exactly what we have to do. As long as they are training kids to be fanatics, we will have an endless stream of them.

Q

Drop1
08-01-2006, 10:38 AM
President Johnson said,"politics is the art of knowing the possible". GWB does not know,how to balance the choices confronting the Country,with what is possible,so in his ignorance,he stays the course,with the full support of the self righteous right wing Bible thumpers.

Gayle in MD
08-01-2006, 11:43 AM
Dagwood,
Stay safe. You have my utmost respect. I appreciate all you are doing, and my thoughts are with you.

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
08-01-2006, 11:53 AM
You know, I could never believe that Americans would be so uninformed, that people would vote for a man with such firm ties to oil, and Arabs. didn't they know anything about the Bush family's history? Do you think they didn't know, or they just didn't care? Were they so single minded that they voted completely out of their rejection of Gay rights and women's rights, and their greatest fear, that some of their money just might fall into the hands of the poor and hungry. I truly have a difficult time believing that we have so many of the sort of people who would allow those kinds of issues to factor into their vote for our president, at a time when the Middle East was already such a pressing issue, and Global Warming and pollution, already extreme threats, yet they put an oil man in the White House. Unbelievable!

Gayle in Md...... Must have been more than just Florida invovled in the fraud.

Chopstick
08-01-2006, 01:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> <font color="blue"> Beliive it or not , I think I am pretty impartial.! All Ivé ever done is try to show a point of view that could be seen from the other side.
I value my freedom. I go where I want, when I want and I can have an opinion that conflicts with the ruling Govt. I don't want anyone telling me what I should think!
As long as I obey the Law and don't hurt anyone, I can do as I please. Nobody, even if they claim to be fighting for God , is going to make me submit and make me live the way THEY want me to! F*%k them, whoever they are!! </font color> <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="green">Are those bagpipes I hear? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Keep this up and we might have to make you an honorary redneck. People tend to forget that you are not just some sissy liberal Dutch guy but a Scottsman by birth. It's good to see you can get riled up when you need to. </font color>

It should be clear now, and Dagwood confirms this[ I think] that we are not going to win an idealogical war with 'the big stick' approach.
A bomb or a bullet does not destroy an idea.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> This is an excellent point that Dagwood has raised. The war could well end in an eternal stalemate. IT is the idea that must be destroyed. It propagates itself through the collective consciousness of the population like a computer virus jumping from program to program. The only thing that can ever really stop it is a more powerful counter idea.

The problem is that these people have been brainwashed from a very young age with these behavioral patterns. De-programming them is probably impossible after such a long exposure time. This brings us back to the problem of terminating them because they are too dangerous to have around.

The current actions in Lebanon and in the WOT are based on the idea that humans have always organized themselves into heirarchical command structures. If you take out enough of the upper levels the organization collapses. This might not be the right approach in this case. Icing the clerics has already been tried. If all the clerics were in America we would just turn the lawyers loose on them. They would be out of business in a week.

If history has proven anything, it has proven that some ideas are just as toxic to civilization as any pollutant. Shouldn't there be a penalty for spreading them. Then we get into the thought police and freedom of speech.</font color>

pooltchr
08-02-2006, 06:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> We can change their views! Thats exactly what we have to do. As long as they are training kids to be fanatics, we will have an endless stream of them.

Q <hr /></blockquote>

How would you suggest we do that? Their view is the end of our society. How do we convince them that isn't an acceptable option?
Steve

Dagwood
08-03-2006, 09:59 AM
Quote Qtech:

"We can change their views! Thats exactly what we have to do. As long as they are training kids to be fanatics, we will have an endless stream of them."

I wish it were that simple Q. Unfortunately, the people over here don't care about our political ideology, our way of life...quite frankly they don't care about anything aside from survival. That's all they care about. So when they have the taliban coming in and telling them that if they use the school that we built for them, or talk to us, that their family will be killed, it's no surprise that when we do come in and ask if there are any taliban around that they answer no. And quite frankly, I don't blame them one bit. It's difficult to explain, but we're helping these people, but at the same time, not making too much headway. ( I guess every little bit helps)


Thanks for the support, guys. It's always appreciated!!!
Dags

Gayle in MD
08-03-2006, 10:23 AM
Hi again Dags. It's so good to hear from you, everytime! Wish you could check in everyday, so we'd all know you're ok, but that would be hard to do I know. Is there anything you need over there, and a way I could get it to you? Just say the word, and tell me how.

We will all feel better when you are safe, back home, shootin' em' up on the pool table!

Stay safe Dags....

Love,
Gayle

Deeman3
08-03-2006, 10:30 AM
Dags,

Despite what you may hear as we all banter about here and elsewhere, everyone of us support you and hope for your safety. We are proud to know people like you and know that any success is a good thing for all of us.

Keep safe and keep us posted.


Deeman

pooltchr
08-03-2006, 10:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> Dags,

Despite what you may hear as we all banter about here and elsewhere, everyone of us support you and hope for your safety. We are proud to know people like you and know that any success is a good thing for all of us.

Keep safe and keep us posted.


Deeman <hr /></blockquote>

To borrow a line from Rush....."Mega Dittos"
Steve

Deeman3
08-03-2006, 11:35 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <hr /></blockquote>

To borrow a line from Rush....."Mega Dittos"
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Steve,

Thanks, that reminded me I need to take my Vicoden. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Deeman </font color>

Dagwood
08-06-2006, 03:01 AM
I totally understand, and see that all of you support us over here. That was never a question in my mind. All I'm trying to do is give you guys another view of what is going on over here in Afghanistan. Like I (think) I said in an earlier post, my views have altered a bit, but havne't totally changed. My experiences have led me to believe that, (and I hate to use him as an example), like Mr. Rumsfeld has said, this is not going to be an overnight war/struggle. (I tend to the latter) I still believe that what it's going to take to change the people here, (can't speak for Iraq), is education and building an infastructure. (there is only one main paved highway in the whole country to connect major cities.) Without either, the people (1) will never know that there is a better way of life, (2) won't have the opportunity to get that kind of information, (3) and because of these two, will never want to learn, because it could possibly impede their ability to survive in this environment. From what I've seen in the news, and granted it hasn't been that much, Iraq is a totally different beast, and I would really have to talk to some friends that have been over there recently to get a better picture of what's going on, as well as read up on it myself. But there is deffinitely a bright light at the end of the tunnel here in Afghanistan. We just can't get discouraged by the style of conflict it is, which is a perpetual stalemate. In the short term, (one year or so), you can't seen any changes, but over the course of 5+ years, it becomes a vast difference. There are other things that need to happen as well, such as getting the ANA and ANP (police and Army for Afghanistan), on track and well funded, trained and manned to provide security for the Afghan people. All of this, plus bridging the cultural gap that is everyday brought into clarity in numerous situations, are hurdles that we are navigating, and will have to continue to navigate until this is done. (ok got on the soapbox there for longer than intended. Didn't mean to sound like the preacher. LOL /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif ) Even knowing all this, I still get frustrated at the apparent lack of progress, especially when I see some of my fellow soldiers falling in battle. As always, I and the rest of my soldier buds appreciate the support that we've gotten. Hopefully I will be able to post more often than I have in the past. till next time...

Dags

Fran Crimi
08-06-2006, 07:15 AM
I have an idea. How about we all sign a petition for the terrorists to just go away and send it to them? I bet that would work.

Hey I'm not kidding. I remember years ago when the Taliban were about to destroy the ancient statues in Afghanistan. I received e-mail after e-mail from leftists saying, 'sign this petition to stop the destruction of the statues'...As if that was going to put an immediate stop the Taliban. Funny thing is that there was never a mention of how the Taliban were destroying the people, only concern over the statues.

Here's some news for you, Q. The only thing that will make the terrorists change direction is fear. They understand and respect fear because that's their biggest weapon. So how do we instill enough fear in them to make them want to stop attacking?

Fran

Gayle in MD
08-08-2006, 04:25 AM
There is no way to instill fear into people whose ideology is to die for their cause, and that to do so, is their mission. Bombs, and occupations, have not solved anything, and only caused the death and destruction of more innocent people. The terrorists, are lovin' it.

Gayle in Md.

Qtec
08-08-2006, 04:31 AM
Here is an article from 2003 which explains better than I can why this appraoch won't work.

[ QUOTE ]
But now, in connection with our new "get tough" policy in Iraq -- a policy which involves surrounding entire towns with barbed wire among other delightful "innovations" (as if there is anything new about such methods, especially for the Iraqis) -- we have American military commanders making statements like the following:

"Underlying the new strategy, the Americans say, is the conviction that only a tougher approach will quell the insurgency and that the new strategy must punish not only the guerrillas but also make clear to ordinary Iraqis the cost of not cooperating.

"'You have to understand the Arab mind,' Capt. Todd Brown, a company commander with the Fourth Infantry Division, said as he stood outside the gates of Abu Hishma. 'The only thing they understand is force — force, pride and saving face.'"

This is nothing less than insane. There is a well-recognized syndrome in psychology -- a syndrome which leads to a never-ending intergenerational cycle of violence. A parent beats a child, constantly repeating: "But why don't you understand that I love you? Why don't you see that I'm just doing this for your own good?" And all the while, the parent physically brutalizes the child, who then grows up and does the same to his child.

And one of the notable results of this behavior is hardly surprising: the child fears -- and hates -- the parent. Yet this is how we now propose to win over the Iraqis, and prepare them for democracy: "a heavy dose of fear and violence" -- and monetary bribes -- will "convince these people that we are here to help them."

This is the same road the British traveled down in Iraq -- and after 40 years, the British finally gave up, recognizing the hopelessness and self-defeating futility of their task. But in close to record time, we have crossed over into very dangerous territory: this is the kind of occupier psychology that could easily lead to the killing of large numbers of Iraqis, a massacre or massacres which could unleash a horrific wave of violence directed at Americans, and possibly also directed at other Iraqis.

http://thesacredmoment.blogspot.com/2004/03/roots-of-horror-iraq-practice-of.html <hr /></blockquote>

A very accurate prediction.

If Israel defeats Hezbollah but in the process kills 1,000s of civilians and reduces the whole country to rubble, are the Lebanese going to thank them for that?

Today's terrorists are a lost cause. What we need to do is think long term and stop today's children from becoming terrorists also.

The first thing you have to do in Iraq is restore law and order. That's not going to happen with 130,000 troops. You need at least a million, maybe more. If they can't do this, they might as well leave. At the momment, US soldiers are just targets.
If the US going to do this on its own, they will need to introduce a draft, because they haven't got the troops and spend a lot of money. GW and Co know this but won't do it.

Q

Fran Crimi
08-08-2006, 06:57 AM
First of all, what you're quoting is someone's blog site which is no more than someone's opinion that you happen to agree with.

The problem with all these types of articles/blogs is that no solution is offered. Show me a solution. You can't keep running around saying it's no good this way without offering another way.

Don't you get it? The terrorists are totally brainwashed. They can't be talked into anything. The only thing that can shake them up is fear. Fear has a way of making people stop and listen. Leave them to their own devices and do nothing is committing suicide. They are on a mission to kill the Western World.

Fran

Deeman3
08-08-2006, 07:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr>A very accurate prediction.

If Israel defeats Hezbollah but in the process kills 1,000s of civilians and reduces the whole country to rubble, are the Lebanese going to thank them for that? <font color="blue"> I don't believe Israel got the memo that they looking for the Lebanese to thank them. My premise, call me crazy, is that Israel is looking to stop them from launching missles into their country. </font color>

Today's terrorists are a lost cause. What we need to do is think long term and stop today's children from becoming terrorists also. <font color="blue"> Then some tough decisions need to be made over how to eliminate the lost cause terrorists. </font color>

The first thing you have to do in Iraq is restore law and order. That's not going to happen with 130,000 troops. You need at least a million, maybe more. If they can't do this, they might as well leave. At the momment, US soldiers are just targets. <font color="blue"> This is probably true and we can't depend on and European help so let's just pack up and run. Maybe not a bad idea.... </font color>
If the US going to do this on its own, they will need to introduce a draft, because they haven't got the troops and spend a lot of money. GW and Co know this but won't do it. <font color="blue"> The U.S. of course has no other option than to do this on thier own. Europe would not help if they were burning your citizens in the streets. No guts, as usual. Let the U.S. handle it. The UN couldn't do it's job so Israel had to step in, what in the hell do we send support to you guys for anyway? </font color>

Deeman

Q

<hr /></blockquote>

Qtec
08-08-2006, 07:52 AM
GW says pakistan is an ally! Saudi Arabia is an ally but in both countries we have this.

web page (http://www.worldandi.com/public/2001/December/jihad.html)

This would be a good place to start.
How do we stop this?


Q...

Drop1
08-08-2006, 09:17 AM
You start by creating doubt,the same way you convert a Catholic to a Jehova Witness.

Deeman3
08-08-2006, 09:26 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Drop1:</font><hr> You start by creating doubt,the same way you convert a Catholic to a Jehova Witness. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Maw, these are not Catholics.... </font color>

<font color="purple"> adri, polite and well spoken in the British-accented English of South Asia, offered an American guest tea and then calmly disclosed that the modern concepts of tolerance and cultural understanding have not made inroads into his thinking.
"Eventually, all people must become Muslim, including the Christians and Jews of the United States," he said in an interview. "The world has to go the way we want. It's our divine right to lead humanity." He apologized for a lack of time to spend with a visitor, saying he was preparing for yet another of his frequent visits to the United States. There, he preaches in the hundreds of new mosques built in the last decade by Muslim immigrants and raises money for his school--where he teaches his children to kill those who stand in the path of Islamic dominance in the world.
Up on the stone rooftop courtyard of his 110-year-old school, the students were taking advantage of a free period to hit a cricket ball, run, and wrestle like children anywhere in the world. But one slightly built boy explained how he and his classmates were being directed toward a life of violent struggle. -- SIDEBAR --
Terrorism's Fertile Garden

"Most kids here go for jihad, and I will too, God willing," said 14-year-old Obeidulla Anwer, speaking in Urdu through a translator. "Jihad is to fight for Islam and the pride of Islam."
Like most of his classmates, he will leave the school at about age 18 and go to a military training camp in Pakistani-controlled Kashmir, Afghanistan, or some other secret location. After that training, he said, "We go to fight in Kashmir, Chechnya, Palestine, Afghanistan."
Asked whether he was prepared to hurt or kill, the delicate, dark boy said: "I will hurt those who are enemies of Islam. And I know that I could be hurt or killed."
</font color>
<font color="blue"> You can't reason with them. </font color>

Deeman