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Deeman3
07-31-2006, 09:00 AM
This is a cut and paste e-mailed to me today. I thought it was thought provoking.

THE WAR

Please take the time to read the attached essay by Dr. Chong. It is without a doubt the most articulate and convincing writing I have read regarding the War in Iraq. If you have any doubts please open your mind to his essay and give a fair evaluation.

I had no idea who Dr. Chong is or the source of these thoughts... so when I received them, I almost deleted them - as well-written as they are. But then I did a "Google search" on the Doctor and found him to be a retired Air Force Surgeon of all things and past Commander of Wilford Hall Medical Center in San Antonio. So he is real, is connected to Veterans affairs in California, and these are his thoughts. They are worth reading and thinking about!(the same Google search will direct you to some of his other thought-provoking writings.)

Subject: Muslims, terrorist and the USA. A different spin on Iraq war.

This WAR is for REAL! Dr. Vernon Chong, Major General, USAF, Retired

Tuesday, July 12, 2005

To get out of a difficulty, one usually must go through it. Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII).

The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means. First, let's examine a few basics:

1. When did the threat to us start?

Many will say September 11, 2001. The answer as far as the United States is concerned is 1979, 22 years prior to September 2001, with the following attacks on us:

* Iran Embassy Hostages, 1979;

* Beirut, Lebanon Embassy 1983;

* Beirut, Lebanon Marine Barracks 1983;

* Lockerbie, Scotland Pan-Am flight to New York 1988;

* First New York World Trade Center attack 1993;

* Dhahran, Saudi Arabia Khobar Towers Military complex 1996;

* Nairobi, Kenya US Embassy 1998;

* Dares Salaam, Tanzania US Embassy 1998;

* Aden, Yemen USS Cole 2000;

* New York World Trade Center 2001;

* Pentagon 2001.

(Note that during the period from 1981 to 2001 there were 7,581 terrorist attacks worldwide).

2. Why were we attacked?

Envy of our position, our success, and our freedoms. The attacks happened during the administrations of Presidents Carter, Reagan, Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2. We cannot fault either the Republicans or Democrats as there were no provocations by any of the presidents or their immediate predecessors, Presidents Ford or Carter.

3. Who were the attackers?

In each case, the attacks on the US were carried out by Muslims.

4. What is the Muslim population of the World? 25%.

5. Isn't the Muslim Religion peaceful?

Hopefully, but that is really not material. There is no doubt that the predominately Christian population of Germany was peaceful, but under the dictatorial leadership of Hitler (who was also Christian), that made no difference. You either went along with the administration or you were eliminated. There were 5 to 6 million Christians killed by the Nazis for political reasons (including 7,000 Polish priests).

Thus, almost the same number of Christians were killed by the Nazis, as the six million holocaust Jews who were killed by them, and we seldom heard of anything other than the Jewish atrocities. Although Hitler kept the world focused on the Jews, he had no hesitancy about killing anyone who got in his way of exterminating the Jews or of taking over the world - German, Christian or any others.

Same with the Muslim terrorists. They focus the world on the US, but kill all in the way -- their own people or the Spanish, French or anyone else.

The point here is that just like the peaceful Germans were of no protection to anyone from the Nazis, no matter how many peaceful Muslims there may be, they are no protection for us from the terrorist Muslim leaders and what they are fanatically bent on doing -- by their own pronouncements -- killing all of us "infidels." I don't blame the peaceful Muslims. What would you do if the choice was shut up or die?

6. So who are we at war with?

There is no way we can honestly respond that it is anyone other than the Muslim terrorists. Trying to be politically correct and avoid verbalizing this conclusion can well be fatal. There is no way to win if you don't clearly recognize and articulate who you are fighting.

So with that background, now to the two major questions:

1. Can we lose this war?

2. What does losing really mean?

If we are to win, we must clearly answer these two pivotal questions. We can definitely lose this war, and as anomalous as it may sound, the major reason we can lose is that so many of us simply do not fathom the answer to the second question - What does losing mean?

It would appear that a great many of us think that losing the war means hanging our heads, bringing the troops home and going on about our business, like post Vietnam. This is as far from the truth as one can get.

What losing really means is:

We would no longer be the premier country in the world. The attacks will not subside, but rather will steadily increase. Remember, they want us dead, not just quiet. If they had just wanted us quiet, they would not have produced an increasing series of attacks against us, over the past 18 years. The plan was clearly, for terrorist to attack us, until we were neutered and submissive to them. We would of course have no future support from other nations, for fear of reprisals and for the reason that they would see, we are impotent and cannot help them.

They will pick off the other non-Muslim nations, one at a time. It will be increasingly easier for them. They already hold Spain hostage. It doesn't matter whether it was right or wrong for Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq. Spain did it because the Muslim terrorists bombed their train and told them to withdraw the troops. Anything else they want Spain to do will be done. Spain is finished.

The next will probably be France. Our one hope on France is that they might see the light and realize that if we don't win, they are finished too, in that they can't resist the Muslim terrorists without us. However, it may already be too late for France. France is already 20% Muslim and fading fast!

If we lose the war, our production, income, exports and way of life will all vanish as we know it. After losing, who would trade or deal with us, if they were threatened by the Muslims. If we can't stop the Muslims, how could anyone else?

The Muslims fully know what is riding on this war, and therefore are completely committed to winning, at any cost. We better know it too and be likewise committed to winning at any cost.

Why do I go on at such lengths about the results of losing? Simple. Until we recognize the costs of losing, we cannot unite and really put 100% of our thoughts and efforts into winning. And it is going to take that 100% effort to win.

So, how can we lose the war?

Again, the answer is simple. We can lose the war by "imploding." That is, defeating ourselves by refusing to recognize the enemy and their purpose, and really digging in and lending full support to the war effort If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. If we continue to be divided, there is no way that we can win!

Let me give you a few examples of how we simply don't comprehend the life and death seriousness of this situation.

President Bush selects Norman Mineta as Secretary of Transportation. Although all of the terrorist attacks were committed by Muslim men between 17 and 40 years of age, Secretary Mineta refuses to allow profiling. Does that sound like we are taking this thing seriously? This is war! For the duration, we are going to have to give up some of the civil rights we have become accustomed to. We had better be prepared to lose some of our civil rights temporarily or we will most certainly lose all of them permanently. And don't worry that it is a slippery slope. We gave up plenty of civil rights during WWII, and immediately restored them after the victory and in fact added many more since then.

Do I blame President Bush or President Clinton before him?

No, I blame us for blithely assuming we can maintain all of our Political Correctness, and all of our civil rights during this conflict and have a clean, lawful, honorable war. None of those words apply to war. Get them out of your head.

Some have gone so far in their criticism of the war and/or the Administration that it almost seems they would literally like to see us lose. I hasten to add that this isn't because they are disloyal. It is because they just don't recognize what losing means. Nevertheless, that conduct gives the impression to the enemy that we are divided and weakening. It concerns our friends, and it does great damage to our cause.

Of more recent vintage, the uproar fueled by the politicians and media regarding the treatment of some prisoners of war, perhaps exemplifies best what I am saying. We have recently had an issue, involving the treatment of a few Muslim prisoners of war, by a small group of our military police. These are the type prisoners who just a few months ago were throwing their own people off buildings, cutting off their hands, cutting out their tongues and otherwise murdering their own people just for disagreeing with Saddam Hussein.

And just a few years ago these same type prisoners chemically killed 400,000 of their own people for the same reason. They are also the same type of enemy fighters, who recently were burning Americans, and dragging their charred corpses through the streets of Iraq. And still more recently, the same type of enemy that was and is providing videos to all news sources internationally, of the beheading of American prisoners they held.

Compare this with some of our press and politicians, who for several days have thought and talked about nothing else but the "humiliating" of some Muslim prisoners -- not burning them, not dragging their charred corpses through the streets, not beheading them, but "humiliating" them.

Can this be for real?

The politicians and pundits have even talked of impeachment of the Secretary of Defense. If this doesn't show the complete lack of comprehension and understanding of the seriousness of the enemy we are fighting, the life and death struggle we are in and the disastrous results of losing this war, nothing can.

To bring our country to a virtual political standstill over this prisoner issue makes us look like Nero playing his fiddle as Rome burned -- totally oblivious to what is going on in the real world. Neither we, nor any other country, can survive this internal strife. Again I say, this does not mean that some of our politicians or media people are disloyal. It simply means that they are absolutely oblivious to the magnitude of the situation we are in and into which the Muslim terrorists have been pushing us, for many years.

Remember, the Muslim terrorists stated goal is to kill all infidels! That translates into ALL non-Muslims -- not just in the United States, but throughout the world.

We are the last bastion of defense.

We have been criticized for many years as being 'arrogant.' That charge is valid in at least one respect. We are arrogant in that we believe that we are so good, powerful and smart, that we can win the hearts and minds of all those who attack us, and that with both hands tied behind our back, we can defeat anything bad in the world! We can't! If we don't recognize this, our nation as we know it will not survive, and no other free country in the world will survive if we are defeated.

And finally, name any Muslim countries throughout the world that allow freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, equal rights for anyone -- let alone everyone, equal status or any status for women, or that have been productive in one single way that contributes to the good of the world.

This has been a long way of saying that we must be united on this war or we will be equated in the history books to the self-inflicted fall of the Roman Empire . If, that is, the Muslim leaders will allow history books to be written or read.

If we don't win this war right now, keep a close eye on how the Muslims take over France in the next 5 years or less. They will continue to increase the Muslim population of France and continue to encroach little by little, on the established French traditions. The French will be fighting among themselves, over what should or should not be done, which will continue to weaken them and keep them from any united resolve.

Doesn't that sound eerily familiar?

Democracies don't have their freedoms taken away from them by some external military force. Instead, they give their freedoms away, politically correct piece by politically correct piece. And they are giving those freedoms away to those who have shown, worldwide that they abhor freedom and will not apply it to you or even to themselves, once they are in power.

They have universally shown that when they have taken over, they then start brutally killing each other over who will be the few who control the masses. Will we ever stop hearing from the politically correct, about the "peaceful Muslims"?

I close on a hopeful note, by repeating what I said above. If we are united, there is no way that we can lose. I hope now after the election, the factions in our country will begin to focus on the critical situation we are in, and will unite to save our country. It is your future we are talking about! Do whatever you can to preserve it.

After reading the above, we all must do this not only for ourselves, but our children, our grandchildren, our country and the world. Whether Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal and that includes the Politicians and media of our country and the free world!

If you would like to see who this fellow is go to this Air Force web-site and look him up.

http://www.af.mil/bios/alpha.asp?alpha <

http://www.af.mil/bios/alpha.asp?alpha=C>



Deeman

SnakebyteXX
07-31-2006, 09:45 AM
Well, for starters "Dr. Chong" (or "General Chong") didn't pen this essay. At least not according to these folks Snopes.com (http://www.snopes.com/rumors/soapbox/chong.asp) :

"Origins: The above-quoted essay about the war on terrorism is yet one more example of misattribution through e-mail forwarding. Although USAF Major General Vernon Chong is indeed a real person, the essay was not written by him; it was something he came across and forwarded to an acquaintance via e-mail, thereby attaching his name to it and inadvertently causing other recipients to erroneously assume he was its author.

This essay began circulating back in mid-2004 under the title "THE WORLD SITUATION — A LETTER TO MY SONS," with the following opening:

This was written by a retired attorney, to his sons, May 19, 2004.

Dear Tom, Kevin, Kirby and Ted,

As your father, I believe I owe it to you to share some thoughts on the present world situation. We have over the years discussed a lot of important things, like going to college, jobs and so forth. But this really takes precedence over any of those discussions. I hope this might give you a longer term perspective that fewer and fewer of my generation are left to speak to. To be sure you understand that this is not politically flavored, I will tell you that since Franklin D. Roosevelt, who led us through pre and WWII (1933 - 1945) up to and including our present President, I have without exception, supported our presidents on all matters of international conflict. This would include just naming a few in addition to President Roosevelt - WWII: President Truman - Korean War 1950; President Kennedy Bay of Pigs (1961); President Kennedy - Vietnam (1961); eight presidents (5 Republican & 4 Democrat) during the cold war (1945 - 1991); President Clinton's strikes on Bosnia (1995) and on Iraq (1998). So be sure you read this as completely non-political or otherwise you will miss the point.

Our country is now facing the most serious threat to its existence, as we know it, that we have faced in your lifetime and mine (which includes WWII). The deadly seriousness is greatly compounded by the fact that there are very few of us who think we can possibly lose this war and even fewer who realize what losing really means. First, let's examine a few basics:

Somewhere along the chain of multiple forwardings, someone rewrote the first few paragraphs and mistakenly attributed the entire piece to General Chong. We have not yet been able to ascertain the identity of the original author."

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 09:58 AM
Best case for impeachment I have read so far this week. We are not fighting terrorist in Iraq. Terrorists in Iraq represent less than five percent of those whom we fight. We are fighting an Iraqi Civil Sectarian War in Iraq, between Sunnis and Shiites, period. This process has been deemed un-winnable by the vast majority of Military opinion, including those on the ground. Our torture of prisoners, and occpation in Iraq, has given bin Laden credibility among his followers. The Secretary of Defense has proven himself to be incompetent, and a liar, along with Rice, Cheney and Bush. They have used poor judgement, failed to predict correctly results of their actions, and it is a fact, that the correctness of prediction, is the proof of theory. Terrorism has been around forever. Occupying Iraq accomplishes nothing to prevent terrorism. Terrorist attacks have increased all over the world since Bush occupied Iraq. Our distraction from wiping out terrorist cells all over the world, and killing their top leader, ObL, with an occupation in Iraq, where we remain stuck in the middle of a sectarrian civil war, is an action which history has shown us has never succeeded. Now, we're stuck. We can't leave. We have no credibility. We've lost allies. We're in a no win situation. We've emboldened the enemy. Given credibility to their claims, and thereby their cause, and those who designed our quagmire are still calling the shots, in spite of the fact that they are incompetent, unrealistic, wrong in their predictions, wrong in their policy decisions, and untruthful about their results, and the realities on the ground. Failure is never improved upon after the fact, and certainly not by maintaining the very leaders who caused it.


Terrorists, Iran, North Korea, and an unstable Middle East, exactly what Madeline Albright refers to as a perfect storm. And you want the country to deny reality? George Bush created this mess. George Bush must go!


Gayle in Md.

ras314
07-31-2006, 10:12 AM
"Terrorists, Iran, North Korea, and an unstable Middle East, exactly what Madeline Albright refers to as a perfect storm. And you want the country to deny reality? George Bush created this mess. George Bush must go!"

Are you blond? /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Sorry, it just seems a little dull on CCB these days.

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 10:23 AM
No, I'm a brunette, although I love the sun, so my hair color changes seasonally. Are you a Republican? Just thought I'd ask, your question seems about as pertinent as theirs usually are... /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
07-31-2006, 10:27 AM
A nice bit of research Richard.
And while we now have to win the war, it doesn't justify beginning the war.
I think we are in a conundrum though....we can't just do a Korea, or Viet-Nam withdrawel, forget the war ever happened (and forget the forever scarred soldiers who fought there), and hope they will become our new trading partners.
But not to worry....I'm sure GW has a plan, or when he passes the mantle to Jebba the Hun, he'll have a plan

wolfdancer
07-31-2006, 10:30 AM
...... I love the sun
we now know one of your loves, and when we discover your fears, you too, will come to love, Big Brother

ras314
07-31-2006, 10:36 AM
Yep, don't like the Democrats that want to steal my guns. But I don't have enough hair left to change colors these days. /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 10:44 AM
LOL...I love life, friend, bad as it may seem some days when I watch the news, or think of our troops, or innocent people dying in the world, especially children, I still feel lucky to have every single day that I have on this beautiful earth. I still feel greatful for that my family is happy, healthy, and doing well. I just wish that all the people in the world could have a good life, and that mankind would stop the killing and destruction...."what man has done to man.."

Love,
Gayle..
"We have nothing to fear, but fear, itself!"

Thinkin' bout starting a new religion...think I'll name it...MYOB! It'll be a real novel idea...the underlying religious doctrine, "
"Don't ask, don't tell!"

Love,
Gayle

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 10:46 AM
Awe...don't worry, women love bald men. They're cuddly...
Hey, I wouldn't give up my gun for love or money!

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
07-31-2006, 10:49 AM
Ras,

Yep, it sure is dull around here these days. The Israelis are the only news going on and the left can't decide if they will go the anti-semite route or cheer on the fact that we are getting tons of bad world press.

Perhaps when there are Muslims beheading their kids in the streets here or when they repudiate American policy and governence to such an extent that we withdraw completly from the rest of the world, maybe they will see there really is an enemy out there. We didn't make him and as of now, we will just be satisfied to apease world opinion so that we will be in the same sad state in regard to Muslins as France, Spain and the rest of Europe.

Perhaps if we demonize the Jews enough, this whole thing will just go away. Let's stop Israel from bombing and let them talk while continuing to have bombs launched at them each day. Hezbollah are nice and trustworthy guys, what has Israel got to fear. After all, they took the Gaza strip and west bank, no mind that it was after five Arab countries jumped on them at once.

Iran might well remember in their efforts to get their hands on atomic weapons, Israel has them already and will not be seeking French approval if they decide to use them. Just sit back and watch Iran build weapons. I bet Israel has a solution for that. Remember when the twin towers when down? No, well many of the pictures of crowds cheering and dancing in the streets were from Beiruit and it was not Hamas street walkers doing the cheering. These people have hated us since well before the world heard of GWB and they will hate us long after he is gone and the next president is waving a white flag.


Deeman

wolfdancer
07-31-2006, 11:08 AM
You sure that Alabama heat, and the pool withdrawel symptoms ain's just fogging yer brain?
You're taking everything to it's extreme....the left are capitulating cowards, while the capitolistic right, has the only realistic grasp of the world situation.
Is it possible to express sympathy for the innocent victims in Lebanon, as well as the innocents in Israel....without being accused of being a Hezbolleh supporter?
I thought Condi was going to straighten things out...what happened? Wasn't she delivering Bush's ultimatum?
Good thing we got the "right" here to prevent similar bloodshed in America......but then God is on their side, in their good Vs evil battle against the unGodly left

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 11:39 AM
Unlike the right, the left never cheers when innocent children are being killed.

I recall I once asked you how a war in Iraq, was any solution to preventing terrorists from attacking our country, or any country, again. You muttered something about a democracy stabalizing the Middle East. In light of results we are seeing, are you still of that same opinion, that occupying Iraq, will stabalize the Middle East?

FYI, Liberals are not against fighting necessary wars. In fact, they're the ones who are usually doing the fighting. Let's remember, it's the conservatives who are the ones with all the deferments, one need only look as far as the White House to see that.

Do tell us what you think we've accomplished in Iraq that hinders terrorist attacks in our country, or any other country? And, also, guess you don't think Iraqi's were dancing in the streets over the WTC collapse. Tell us, how do you like our shiney new Iraqi leader calling for no amnesty for our troops if they kill Iraqi citizens. How did you like it when, before Bush shut him up, he was calling for an exit schedule? Give us just one example how this war in Iraq will prevent another attack on our soil, from alQaeda?

People hated us before Bush. Many, many more hate us now. Terrorism is growing, their numbers are increasing, under five percent of those in Iraq, are terrorists, according to the State Department, the Middle East is much much more unstable, Bush and company obviously completely miscalculated the results of their War In Iraq, how do you so called conservatives find reasons to justify this mess these days, just more arrows slung at Democrats, who didn't make this mess in the first place?

I suppose these pictures of innocent people, children included, being blown away in Lebanon are simply thrilling to the bomb slinging right wing, chicken hawk republicans, huh? Nothing they love more than an overdone bloody response to a minor infraction!

We can't stop Iran from nuclear weapons, just like we couldn't stop North Korea. You just don't get it, do you? Bush has made everything worse. This is a failed policy. Seventy percent of Americans see that, but you just can't admit it, can you, still on here posting lies to try to make Bush look good. Good luck. Glad you've got plenty of cockeyed optimism over the mess he's made, cause you're sure as hell gonna need it when next you hear from bin Laden!

Amazing, you're innate ability to twist reality into something beyond recongition!

Gayle in Md.

ras314
07-31-2006, 11:40 AM
Deeman,

When the twin towers went down it was several days before I knew about it. No TV and so far out in the hills radio reception was an iffy thing and only at night. So I don't claim to know much about world events even though nowadays I do have TV.

I don't find current world events boring, more like scary. May ought to move back up on the mountian.

Chopstick
07-31-2006, 02:27 PM
It doesn't matter who published it. It is still well written and makes good sense. A year or so ago I wanted to find out what the cause of this conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis was all about. I did the usual google searchs and I even found the UN archive. They have papers on the area going back to before Israel existed.

Basically the land was just all marshes and malaria. No arabs lived there. In the 1880s Jews came there and began working to reclaim the land and build it into a place where someday their people could come and live in their ancestral homeland. Once they got the area built up into a decent placw to live, the Arabs started to move in and claim it was their land to begin with. They didn't care about it before that.

From what I have read, Israel has bent over backwards to live in peace with these poeple and they will have none of it. One of the biggest sore spots with the Palestinians is having Israeli settlements on land the claim as their own. It has only been a few months since Israel sent in it's army to evict their own citizens from their home in Gaza. They pulled out their people and their troops to appease these people. What did they get for their efforts? A shower of rockets from Gaza.

Anybody who can just sit back and say these people are not a threat to us.....

Qtec
07-31-2006, 06:59 PM
You need to watch this docu. jihad (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q=Obsession%3A +What+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+About&hl=en)

Q

ras314
07-31-2006, 07:25 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> You need to watch this docu. jihad (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&amp;q=Obsession%3A +What+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+About&amp;hl=en)

Q <hr /></blockquote>

Wow. Better no try this on dial-up. /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

pooltchr
07-31-2006, 08:32 PM
Dee,
I think there are some on here who may have read the original post, but didn't comprehend it. There is an enemy out there who has vowed to see the death of our country. They may not need to wait too long. The liberal idiots can't focus on anything beyond what has happened in the past few years. The terrorists have been working on our demise for much longer.
The political correctness of the left and their refusal to understand exactly what we are up against plays right into the terrorists hands. The greatest ally the terrorists have is right here in our country. There are some lunatics who think we shouldn't be in this war, that we can't win it, and we should try to be nice to them! They are more concerned with petty politics, and think it's funny to make up cute names to attach to the "other side".

Maybe some day they will wake up and understand who the real enemy is. But for now, they think the enemy lives on Pennsylvania Avenue. We can only hope that they wake up before we are all wearing turbans, and living in fear that the new leaders might decide to come in our homes, drag us out into the street and kill us off by the thousands! If we can't take away the terrorists will to fight, then the only option left is to take away their ability to fight.

When someone sets out to destroy you, you can either let them do it, or destroy them first.

Liberal thinking may very well help the terrorists achieve their goals. I'm not sure which group causes me more concern.

Steve

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 08:48 PM
I agree with everything you say. But, I know of no one who would say that alQaeda, and other terrorist organizations are no threat to us. Who says that? I just wish that our country would focuss on killing them, instead of responding to 9/11 by trying to build a case against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11, (Iraq) and was of no immediate threat.

Do you think that fighting a civil war in Iraq, between
Sunnis and Shiites, is really a war on Terrorists?

There are Hezbollah's right here in our country, and alqaeda cells. We know the Hezbollah's came right over our open Mexican border. We have several of them locked up, and know that is how they got in. It's still open. Wonder how many alQaeda have come over it during the last six years. The new book, "Minutemen" uses pretty good methods of deduction and says the over thirty thousand illegal aliens are in this country right now. Wonder why Bush isn't concerned about closing our borders? Making our ports safer from a terrorist nuke? They're still vulnerable, too. Dubai is still operating our ports. They were supposed to be out in forty-five days, but they're still operating our ports. Still haven't sold the operations. We still don't have bin Laden. He's still plotting, and threatening us. alQaeda's numbers are growing. But we're bogged down in Iraq. How can people not see that this isn't making us safer? Doesn't address making the changes that would make us safer?

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 09:47 PM
Speaking strictly for myself, I have seen the light. I now have realized that Saddam, and the sunnis and shiites, were really behind 9/11, hence I see that Bush was right to occupy Iraq, and make Saddam his top priority!

When we are attacked again, by alQaeda, you'll be on here saying "See, we tried to tell you liberals that you didn't understand the dangers of terrorists!"

WRONG...we tried to tell you Bush supporters that a war in Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, getting alQaeda, bin Laden, or making us safer here. Soon you'll see why.

Being against Torture, and political correctness are two completely different things.

But, I'm sure that you and your measley 28 or 32 percent like minded people in this country are right, and the seventy percent of us that know that Iraq was a stupid mistake, and Bush screwed it up anyway, are all wrong.

You can't address the issues, because to do so proves how dumb your leader is, so all you can do is sneer over the facts.

The war in Iraq, has no effect on our safety here. It is not a war on terror. It is a sectarian, Civil War, between Shiites, and Sunnis. And it has helped the cause of the terrorists, and given credence to their original lies about our country. Terrorist attacks have increased, and they have become emboldened. The middle east is more unstable than ever. Iran and North Korea, and capitalized on the failed policy of going into Iraq. Our country, and our army, has been weakened by Bush's policies. These are the facts. You can't take it, can you?

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in MD
07-31-2006, 10:00 PM
Unless, of course, it's a republican cut and paste....LMAO

Deeman3
08-01-2006, 04:16 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> You need to watch this docu. jihad (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&amp;q=Obsession%3A +What+The+War+on+Terror+Is+Really+About&amp;hl=en)

Q <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue">

Q, yes this video is very frightening. It won't be long until all the world has to deal with this like it or not.

UNlike Gayle says, most of us on the right do not like to see children killed, by us or by the terrorists. The question remains, how do you negoiate with someone who only wants your destruction?

Deeman</font color>

wolfdancer
08-01-2006, 09:18 AM
Steve, perhaps your post is the most troubling, that i've read here recently....
To buy into your reasoning one would have to believe that Iraq
posed the biggest, and most imminent threat towards the U.S....and forget that other countries, with more weaponry, and equal hatred were an even greater danger. And forget that this war has created new fears and hatreds toward the U.S. from other Arab nations, and spawned legions of new terrorists, while empowering Iran, by removing it's biggest threat, and bogging our soldiers, our resoures, down for years to come.
And while it may appeal to your intellect to think of anyone that you label by the overused "liberal" term (that seems to be anyone that doesn't quite agree with you)...to think of them as your intellectually inferior, as idiots.....and then add on an "enemy of the state"....it's scary!!!
I believe it's thinking like that, that is the gravest danger to the freedom, the liberties that we enjoy as Americans. Countries in the Middle East, and N. Korea pose the threat of all out war, to take away the freedom, the liberties that we all enjoy as Americans.....but,if enough people agreed with your warped philosophy....those freedoms would be taken away by the right, in the "interest of national security" and our jails couldn't hold the numbers of political prisoners ....Gulag America.....WHF
Project MKULTRA was supposed to have been abandoned in the late 60's.....I'm not so sure it isn't still used today, in the form of some NLP techniques to mold the minds of the far right.
one method of mind control is to create a threat....they want to take your money and redistribute it amongst themselves....then identify the enemy...."liberal" Re: anybody outside of the inner circle, that you will belong to....redemption:and only we, those who share our beliefs, will we saved......and Presto! ....a new "cult" member. The cult of the right wing extremists....not that far advanced from the German version of WWII....

Gayle in MD
08-01-2006, 11:36 AM
Wolf,
Cut and paste jobs don't rate a significant response...if they did, we would need to respond to the writer, not the poster who decided to let someone else speak for them.
Steve

pooltchr
08-02-2006, 06:01 AM
Wolf,
The war on terror requires us to re-think our concept of how to fight a war. In the past, we have dealt with armys. This is completely different. Our army is not trained or equipped to deal with terrorists who come out of nowhere, strike quickly, and disappear. This kind of enemy requires a different response. Until we understand that we need to deal with terrorists in a completely different fashion that we would with an army, we will be at a huge disadvantage.
Terrorists don't play by the rules of conventional war...and for us to try to use conventional warfare to stop them is insane.
In the revolutionary war, we defeated the Brittish because we changed tactics. While they marched around in bright red jackets in nice neat rows, we hid in the bushes and picked them off. This is what the terrorists are doing to us now. We continue to use conventional tactics while they hide, and pick us off with surprise attacks. The fact that we don't seem to want to do what is necessary to stop them is what I fear. We are trying to kill a wasp with a sledge hammer.
Steve

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 07:16 AM
And...it isn't working. That is the part that the right doesn't seem to get. The policy was wrong, period. Becoming the enemy, stooping to their methods, (torture) as you prefer, occupying their country, none of this will work, but only make matters worse.

Diplomacy in the region is the only answer. Diplomacy, and money for the suffering nations in that area, and more pressure on Saudi Arabia, Europe, India and China, to take an active role in solving the terrorist problem. They (China and India) need the oil more than we do, and they have just as much to lose, if not more, if terrorists rise up and take it over. That is why de-stabalizing the Middle East was the worst thing we could do. We should have gotten the geographic surrounding countries on board, in the first place, instead of going in big guns and threats, as we did. You have to try to close the cultural gap, before you can use reason. Loads of time and money was spent on doing just that during the Clinton administration, and Bush 1, and we were gaining understanding of the area, and close to dismantling alQaeda through technology, and by accumulating general information about their inner workings. It wasn't until the dictatorial flavor of Cheney and Bush 2 came along, that we lost everything we had gained in diplomacy and closing that gap of the cultural divide. Working with the leaders of the Arab countries, large and small, was the way to go. But, Bush/Cheney, threw out everything we had learned. They thumbed their noses at the whole world. That's the reason why everything is worse, and why there are more countries who are against the United Stated than ever before. That's the reason why there is a whole new generation of youth in the Middle East, who will readily be taught to hate us. The pressure against the terrorists must come from within the Arab and Muslim communities. It could have been accomplished. We had money, Power, allies, military strength, and a balanced budget. Now, we have a broken army, broken equipment, huge debt, more enemies, and we're stuck in a civil war.



Gayle in Md.

wolfdancer
08-02-2006, 07:25 AM
I cought the tail end of a news segment, that was citng the same thing, and telling of the needs for additional billions for both the regular forces and the reserves.
Also mentioned how our weapons degrade rapidly, due to the extreme conditions there.

pooltchr
08-02-2006, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Diplomacy in the region is the only answer. Diplomacy, and money for the suffering nations in that area,
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

So we should sit down and talk with the terrorists, try to understand why they want to destroy us, offer them money to make them feel better, and maybe they will love us enough to stop the attacks.
Good Plan! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Steve

nAz
08-02-2006, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> Diplomacy in the region is the only answer. Diplomacy, and money for the suffering nations in that area,
Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

So we should sit down and talk with the terrorists, try to understand why they want to destroy us, offer them money to make them feel better, and maybe they will love us enough to stop the attacks.
Good Plan! /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

Steve what are you a wimp? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

I think we drop a large quantity of ecstasy into their drinking water...

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 09:21 AM
You know what Steve, I'm really tired of the way you respond to my posts. In fact, I'm tired of the way you twist my thoughts into something that I know, you know I didn't mean. I'm tired of sarcastic exchanges of words, and I'm tired of tired of you and I being always involved in attacks against one another. I'm tired of watching women and children on the news every night, in a heap in the sand, crying their hearts out, and I'm tired of watching soldiers carry the bodies of dead children through the streets. I'm tired of this eternal mutual war between the left and the right, and most of all I'm tired of George Bush. From now on, let's you and I make the effort to call a truce. There's enough fighting going on in the world, without us adding to it. I'm going to make every effort to post to you in a reasonable way, and I hope you will do the same. I'm not without fault, and I know that I do get emotional over certain issues, especially when they involve any kind of sexist, or racist comments, but I am going to try to respect your opinions, and I hope that you will do the same. If I have offended you in the past, I extend my apology. It is long past time for all of us here, and in our country, to try to find some common ground, because we are going to have some awful times together in the future.

Gayle in Md.

SnakebyteXX
08-02-2006, 09:45 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> Wolf,
The war on terror requires us to re-think our concept of how to fight a war. In the past, we have dealt with armys. This is completely different. Our army is not trained or equipped to deal with terrorists who come out of nowhere, strike quickly, and disappear.

<font color="blue">Not all that 'completely different'. Remember the Viet Cong? They were not uniformed. They 'came out of no where - struck quickly and disappeared'. In general they were indistinguishable from the civilian population.

Therein lay the problem. As we tried to fight a war against terrorism in Viet Nam (although to be honest, back then we called it 'communism') with bombs and rockets and all the hardware that a modern traditional army like ours could muster all we succeeded in doing with the Viet Cong was to swell their ranks with more and more civilians enraged by the actions of our military. </font color>

This kind of enemy requires a different response. Until we understand that we need to deal with terrorists in a completely different fashion that we would with an army, we will be at a huge disadvantage.

<font color="blue">Once again, in Viet Nam we responded to the 'terrorist' VC ambushes by burning suspect villages and torturing a few prisoners. It didn't help. </font color>

Terrorists don't play by the rules of conventional war...and for us to try to use conventional warfare to stop them is insane.

<font color="blue">Remember in Viet Nam when we used to send troops into the jungle to try and get the VC to ambush them? I mean, military thinking at the time was that the only way to get these guys to come out of hiding was to make a juicy enough target. How weird was that?

It strikes me that some of this same behavior is being repeated in Iraq. We parade our military vehicles back and forth on the highways of the country knowing that eventually some terrorist bad guy or two will be tempted to lay up a road side bomb. AFTER the bomb goes off we then go looking for the culprits! How weird is that? </font color>

In the revolutionary war, we defeated the Brittish because we changed tactics. While they marched around in bright red jackets in nice neat rows, we hid in the bushes and picked them off. This is what the terrorists are doing to us now. We continue to use conventional tactics while they hide, and pick us off with surprise attacks. The fact that we don't seem to want to do what is necessary to stop them is what I fear. We are trying to kill a wasp with a sledge hammer.

<font color="blue">Those lessons were all taught thirty-five years ago in Viet Nam. In an effort to qwell the opposing forces we dropped at least double the ordinance that was rained down on the enemy in ALL of WWII. We blasted the Ho Chi Minh Trail with everything we had - over and over and over again. While the enemy simply responded by taking side trails - building bridges under water in rivers and streams so that they couldn't be seen from the air. Ultimately the cost of trying to destroy that traffic vastly exceeded its effectiveness.

We did have Operation Phoenix (http://www.thememoryhole.org/phoenix/)

"&gt;&gt;&gt; Created by the CIA in Saigon in 1967, Phoenix was a program aimed at "neutralizing"—through assassination, kidnapping, and systematic torture—the civilian infrastructure that supported the Viet Cong insurgency in South Vietnam. It was a terrifying "final solution" that violated the Geneva Conventions and traditional American ideas of human morality."

This was basically a program run by the CIA that targeted VC suspects for assassination. My brother-in-law participated in that program. He helped to assassinate an awful lot of suspected VC - including women. He still doesn't like to talk much about it and rightfully so.

So, given all of the above, when you say, "The fact that we don't seem to want to do what is necessary to stop them is what I fear." What exactly would you propose to stop them? Another Phoenix program? What would you consider to be 'necessary'?
</font color>
Steve <hr /></blockquote> <font color="blue"> </font color>

wolfdancer
08-02-2006, 10:40 AM
So, if Bush turns out to be the military genious that the right purports him to be, and the war is won in the near future......the insurgents give up,lay down their arms and are rewarded with jobs at Disneyland in the Sand, McDonalds, and the new Iraqi Hooters ( a big hit since no Iraqi man has ever seen a woman's charms with the lights on)....
what have we gained? There's a waiting list of other countries that also hate us, fear us, etc..is Iran our next destination?....and will China raise the limit on our Peking Visa cards? Where will the $$ come from?
As noted on the news last nite, we now pay huge bonuses to entice our young to enlist....unlike the patriotic soldiers of WWII...we now have a "mercenary Army"....and the price keeps going up, as they hear about conditions, equipment, etc.....they didn't hear it from me though....Gayle is the culprit.....

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 10:52 AM
BTW, I know you don't like seeing children killed. I wasn't aiming that at anyone here. I'm not so sure about Bush and cheney though!

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
08-02-2006, 11:23 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> BTW, I know you don't like seeing children killed. I wasn't aiming that at anyone here. I'm not so sure about Bush and cheney though!

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> Gayle,

I didn't take it that you felt I enjoyed the deaths of children. I hope nobody does, including Bush and his people.

As always, what is the rational way to solve this? I fear if we do get out, it will be a slaughter. No matter the cause or laying blame, it will be horrible for all.

It does seem so simple to us that if both sides will lay down arms so many more people will survive this. But, I don't know or beleive the Muslims will ever let this go. I hope I am wrong and would be happy to claim so if that ever happens. Don'y think for aminute that I don't know this could be our kids being killed and mutilated in a slightly different world and time. Hell, maybe they are our kids.....

</font color>
Deeman

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 11:58 AM
You're right, but if we stay, it's still going to be a slaughter, and our kids will be part of it, and it sure doesn't look like there's a snowball's chance in hell to turn this thing around into a win. Just think of how many terrorists there are, and how many Muslims.

What I think is that Bush should have taken a much different tact, if he was hell bent on going in, after two damn years, he should have started making more public statements and shown more impatience with the Iraqis for failing to do the right thing, and failing to seize the moment, which they haven't!

I'll tell ya, while I hate seeing them get slaughtered, I'm beginning to wonder if they're worth saving. Just look how they have drug their feet, throughout! Yeah, I know the country has been under attack left and right, but just look how long they sat at the table and argued over who was getting what. For the love of Pete, didn't they know that this was a hellova big chance for them, and they'd better damn well take advantage of it?

Bottom line, if they don't have the balls to get off their asses, and fight for their own democracy, the hell with them. We can't go down the tube with them.

And just look at Rumsfeld. Hey, if we're not going to re-institute the draft, and go in there like gangbusters, and get this job done, we might just as well leave, cause Rumsfeld is never going to do anything but lie, and continue to try to build a house with two nails. It's not fair to our reserves, to keep re-deploying the same people over and over.

Paying people to go over there is just another way of enticing disadvantaged people to die, Staying The Course, while people with a foot up, financially speaking, get a bye? I don't think that's fair. It's basically another case of the rich, taking advantage of the poor, and you know how I hate that!

Just for the record, My whole family consists of business owners, and lucky for me, I've never been poor, and don't begrudge people who work hard, and pull themselves up in this world. But what we're seeing with the current administration, is an assault on the poor and middle class, from every angle, including this war, for the benefit of the rich, pure and simple.

Ok, Ok, it's too late to whine over all the mistakes rumsfeld made when we went in there, allowing the country to fall into kaos, looting, lawlessness, all of that, but since then, Rumsfeld's prosecution of this war, or Bush's, or whoever the hell is pulling the strings on this thing, are acting like there's no tomorrow, like we've got forever, and holding the Iraqi's hands in assurance, "Oh don't worry, we won't leave you, we'll let our kids stay here and die till nobody has an arm or leg left to sacrifice. For What? It isn't going to do one damn thing to stop terrorism. If I'm wrong, tell me how?

I'm not mad at you, I'm just mad...

Gayle in Md.

pooltchr
08-02-2006, 12:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> You know what Steve, I'm really tired of the way you respond to my posts. In fact, I'm tired of the way you twist my thoughts into something that I know, you know I didn't mean. I'm tired of sarcastic exchanges of words, and I'm tired of tired of you and I being always involved in attacks against one another. I'm tired of watching women and children on the news every night, in a heap in the sand, crying their hearts out, and I'm tired of watching soldiers carry the bodies of dead children through the streets. I'm tired of this eternal mutual war between the left and the right, and most of all I'm tired of George Bush. From now on, let's you and I make the effort to call a truce. There's enough fighting going on in the world, without us adding to it. I'm going to make every effort to post to you in a reasonable way, and I hope you will do the same. I'm not without fault, and I know that I do get emotional over certain issues, especially when they involve any kind of sexist, or racist comments, but I am going to try to respect your opinions, and I hope that you will do the same. If I have offended you in the past, I extend my apology. It is long past time for all of us here, and in our country, to try to find some common ground, because we are going to have some awful times together in the future.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

I have absolutely no problem with that. I don't dislike you personally, just happen to disagree with some of the ideas you post, but more with the way you post them. And I have a tendency to become a bit of a smart a$$ when making a point.
Disagreeing on civil terms sounds like a good option for both of us.
Steve

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 12:35 PM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Deeman3
08-02-2006, 02:20 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> You know what Steve, I'm really tired of the way you respond to my posts. In fact, I'm tired of the way you twist my thoughts into something that I know, you know I didn't mean. I'm tired of sarcastic exchanges of words, and I'm tired of tired of you and I being always involved in attacks against one another. I'm tired of watching women and children on the news every night, in a heap in the sand, crying their hearts out, and I'm tired of watching soldiers carry the bodies of dead children through the streets. I'm tired of this eternal mutual war between the left and the right, and most of all I'm tired of George Bush. From now on, let's you and I make the effort to call a truce. There's enough fighting going on in the world, without us adding to it. I'm going to make every effort to post to you in a reasonable way, and I hope you will do the same. I'm not without fault, and I know that I do get emotional over certain issues, especially when they involve any kind of sexist, or racist comments, but I am going to try to respect your opinions, and I hope that you will do the same. If I have offended you in the past, I extend my apology. It is long past time for all of us here, and in our country, to try to find some common ground, because we are going to have some awful times together in the future.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

I have absolutely no problem with that. I don't dislike you personally, just happen to disagree with some of the ideas you post, but more with the way you post them. And I have a tendency to become a bit of a smart a$$ when making a point.
Disagreeing on civil terms sounds like a good option for both of us.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I agree. We all need to display a little more discussion and less bluster. All right, on the count of three, we will all reach out and hug our monitors, one, two, three....That felt good... Hey, who copped a feel? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

Deeman
They have finally pried my gun from my cold, dead hand....

Gayle in MD
08-03-2006, 03:58 AM
I confess... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Deeman3
08-03-2006, 07:30 AM
/ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

pooltchr
08-03-2006, 08:19 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> I confess... /ccboard/images/graemlins/blush.gif <hr /></blockquote>

Better you than me!!!!!! /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
Steve /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif

eg8r
08-04-2006, 09:15 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Deeman3:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote pooltchr:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Gayle in MD:</font><hr> You know what Steve, I'm really tired of the way you respond to my posts. In fact, I'm tired of the way you twist my thoughts into something that I know, you know I didn't mean. I'm tired of sarcastic exchanges of words, and I'm tired of tired of you and I being always involved in attacks against one another. I'm tired of watching women and children on the news every night, in a heap in the sand, crying their hearts out, and I'm tired of watching soldiers carry the bodies of dead children through the streets. I'm tired of this eternal mutual war between the left and the right, and most of all I'm tired of George Bush. From now on, let's you and I make the effort to call a truce. There's enough fighting going on in the world, without us adding to it. I'm going to make every effort to post to you in a reasonable way, and I hope you will do the same. I'm not without fault, and I know that I do get emotional over certain issues, especially when they involve any kind of sexist, or racist comments, but I am going to try to respect your opinions, and I hope that you will do the same. If I have offended you in the past, I extend my apology. It is long past time for all of us here, and in our country, to try to find some common ground, because we are going to have some awful times together in the future.

Gayle in Md. <hr /></blockquote>

I have absolutely no problem with that. I don't dislike you personally, just happen to disagree with some of the ideas you post, but more with the way you post them. And I have a tendency to become a bit of a smart a$$ when making a point.
Disagreeing on civil terms sounds like a good option for both of us.
Steve <hr /></blockquote>

<font color="blue"> I agree. We all need to display a little more discussion and less bluster. All right, on the count of three, we will all reach out and hug our monitors, one, two, three....That felt good... Hey, who copped a feel? /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif</font color>

Deeman
They have finally pried my gun from my cold, dead hand.... <hr /></blockquote> Quitters. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

eg8r

Qtec
08-04-2006, 11:45 AM
Ed, look at it like this.
Most of the posters here are in the same solar system. If leaning to the Left meant closer to the Sun you would probably say I was Mercury- on even a sunspot!
I would call myself the Moon because sometimes I am close to Sun and sometimes I,m not. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You buddy are Pluto! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
You are so far out you don't even have a real orbit! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif
The only topic of conversation you and your Pluto pals have is the comet that whizzes by once a year. You then spend the next 11 months blaming it on Clinton ,with a 1 month pause, before repeating the whole cycle!
/ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Q..........that feels better .....LOL