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nAz
08-01-2006, 07:06 PM
Intresting article... i don't know if anyone here will care to read the whole thing but here is the link... http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/mear01_.html

Good thing i don't need holywood to make a living. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

The Israel Lobby
John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt

For the past several decades, and especially since the Six-Day War in 1967, the centrepiece of US Middle Eastern policy has been its relationship with Israel. The combination of unwavering support for Israel and the related effort to spread ‘democracy’ throughout the region has inflamed Arab and Islamic opinion and jeopardised not only US security but that of much of the rest of the world. This situation has no equal in American political history. Why has the US been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of another state? One might assume that the bond between the two countries was based on shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives, but neither explanation can account for the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the US provides.

Instead, the thrust of US policy in the region derives almost entirely from domestic politics, and especially the activities of the ‘Israel Lobby’. Other special-interest groups have managed to skew foreign policy, but no lobby has managed to divert it as far from what the national interest would suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that US interests and those of the other country – in this case, Israel – are essentially identical.

Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing that given to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct economic and military assistance since 1976, and is the largest recipient in total since World War Two, to the tune of well over $140 billion (in 2004 dollars). Israel receives about $3 billion in direct assistance each year, roughly one-fifth of the foreign aid budget, and worth about $500 a year for every Israeli. This largesse is especially striking since Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to that of South Korea or Spain.

Drop1
08-01-2006, 08:45 PM
You know,one time when I was a kid,we had dinner at the home of some Jews,and the food was really bad. nAz I read the whole article. Is there supposed to be a hyphen in Jew Boy? I almost went to Israel once,but they said I would have to do farm work,and sing songs,so I stayed home. Did you know at one time England controlled eighty five percent of all the oil in the Arab countries.

nAz
08-01-2006, 09:15 PM
hyphen in Jew boy? not sure i never wrote that word before, i use to call a friend that all the time though, lol bastard he use to crack me up had a new name for me every week... last i heard he was living in Palestine err israel i mean.

Ya the UK could have own the world out right if they held on to that part of the world. lol

nice to know we flip such a large bill to our middle east allies... even if they don't need it.

DickLeonard
08-02-2006, 06:07 AM
Naz a lot of Muslim hate probably goes back to the days when they were colonies. What I have read is that the Muslim forgives no wrong and a descendant will avenge that deed years later.####

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 06:35 AM
Naz, when we had our boat on the Chesapeake Bay, there was an older couple in our marina, Hy and Lil. They were retired, but had owned the Friendly Deli, in Upper North West Washington, for years. We loved them. Hy was an expert fisherman, taught me how to find the fish, and how to fillet each and every kind, and Lil taught me how to cook Jewish style, but she could really cook! I gave her a lot of Italian cooking instructions, too. They were wonderful people, and when Hy died, the marina was never the same.

They were Jewish, their son was gay, and his significant other was black, and I admired them so much for the way they would handle any kind of racist or gay bashing type jokes or comments made in their presence. Never any anger, just would say, "But, you know, we don't agree with that kind of thinking" We had some good ol' boy types in the marina, and they learned a lot from Hy and Lil about what love is really all about, and how damaging "That kind of thinking" really is. I still miss them. When Hy died, Lil didn't last long, we moved our boat to OC, the memories were just too much, but they're presence in the marina, and the respect that everyone held in their hearts for Hy and Lil, changed the thinking of a lot of people who had never thought very deeply into their non-thinking statements.

I don't think any group, or person, should be judged by anything other than what they "do" and I do think that Isreal has a right to defend itself, but I also think that retaliation should always be equal to the original offence. The deaths of so many children in Lebanon has been completely devastating to watch, and over the top, as far as I am concerned. There is no justification for such carnage. The situation in Lebanon is a good example of why the idea of spreading democracy in the Middle East is so unrealistic, throws gas on the cultural fire. And why going into areas of the world where there is such a vast cultural gap, instead of using diplomacy among the surrounding geographic neighbors, and organizing support for change in advance of serious negotiation, is more realistic and successful than occupations, bombs, and war could ever be.

When Bush went into Afghanistan, the administration did this. They had the surrounding countries on board. All agreed that the Taliban should be removed. Things went well, and the administration, unfortunately, got puffed up, presumed a much more dictatorial approach to Iraq, and sent an agressive message to the neighboring countries, it was more like, We're coming, we don't care what you think, and further, you might be next! The has been the worst policy decision since Vietnam. Finding a way out of this mess is not going to be easy, but the sooner we get out, with some kind of dignity, the better, and I hope the lessons learned, will be lasting, this time. John Murthat was absolutely correct to say that we should withdraw just outside of Iraq, and let the Iraqis fight out their civil war for their own democracy. That didn't include abandoning the Iraqis. We would still have been around to give support, financial aid, and advisory assistance, but it is also true, there is no such thing as help, only assistance. There is no point in our people dying for something that the Iraqis cannot organize themselves around enough to fight for it. The entire plolicy was greatly flawed from the outset.

Gayle in Md.

Deeman3
08-02-2006, 08:08 AM
Gayle,

I honestly believe that, the Jewish response, while it would be "over the top", if simple retribution was the goal, is a result of their wanting to take the threat of daily nombing of their people away. I just don't see them being able to negoiate from a position of weakness with the Palestinians in the cat bird seat of holding Lebanon hostage and the Lebanese saying, "we can't control them launching missles". Isael has the will and the power to drive Hezbollah back at least to make it harder for them to continue the terror war against Israel.

Now, of course, this is my belief as I think the Jews would settle for non-viloence if they had any assurance of security. However, they don't pay as much attention to bad press as we do as their very existance is at stake in this, not just their oil supply and a stable placated Middle East.

My question to you. Do you really believe there can be long term peace with no swift and harsh retalliation from Israel to attacks on it very existence?

Are there Jews here on the CCB? What do you think?

The tradegdy of seeing civilians die each day is difficult for everyone. Why do we judge Israel so harshly for bombing civilians targets where we know terrorists are hiding while not judging the terrorists for their purposful attacks on Jews who are not harboring weapons, Hezbollah or anything else?

Last night Jon Stewart had a great idea (Yes, I do enjoy Stewart) about making Jerusleum an independent city. As a funny aside he said, "I think the Scientologists have their eye on Jerusleum." Makes you think that while this city is the holiest of places for the Jews, the Muslims seem to belatedly identify it as one of their most sacred sites along with Mecca and others. It's almost as if the site was not that valuable until the Muslims saw the site of King Soliman's temple and later Herod's replacement temple and wanted it.

I am not Jewish and don't particularily like the Jews (but admire them) but it seems while we have sponsored them monetarily politically, we still question their motives much more than we do the Muslims, who you know I have even less use for (It's that I want to kill you thing).

Deeman

Drop1
08-02-2006, 08:24 AM
Gayle I worked for a Jewish man named Joe Kass. His son Brian Kass was married to Joan Collins,and he headed up Apple Corp,for the Beatles. Joe was a gentlemen,and we were great friends. In the same store there was a fellow about my age,from Syria, we called him Syrian Sam. He also was great company,and worked two jobs,selling shoes,and selling cars. Later in my life I had a Leabonese friend,that started a company called Watch L.A. He used to bring me green peacons. My last boss,before I started my own business,was a Black man named Ray Bruce. We kidded him a lot,because we claimed his mother didn't know if his father was Ray,or Bruce. Today my best friend of twenty eight years,is the president of Megatoys,Peter Woo. The bottom line is as individuals we all liked one another,and we accepted our differences,and could look past the culture,and see the person. If there is a God,that God must be Love,and not of any color,or religious organization.

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 08:56 AM
What I think is that if an action requires the death of so many children, some restraint is in order. I think that Isreal has a right to defend itself, within reason. Rome wasn't built in a day, as my Dad used to say. But I think the every country must be concerned about global opinion, and that Isreal will have lost a good deal of support they may have garnared, due to the killing of so many innocent children. I, personally, find that to be repulsive, and I don't dislike jews.

We have a lot of very wealthy Jews in our country, and they have a good deal of political influence, hence, our sometimes over the top support of Isreal. While I abhor War, no secret, and think that its time is long gone given the nature of nuclear threat we face in the world, I also think that often it isn't what you do, but how you do it. The Hezbollah couldn't hide forever among the civilian population. They could have been out-smarted by Isreal, drawn out, and I believe it would have been worth it for Isreal to take their time, and use more discretion in how they went about defending their country. Instead, just look at the damage, and loss of life. Overkill, IMO, over two captives, and one bomb. No negotiations. They have many more prisoners, thousands, why have they been so bull headed about releasing them? They could have atleast tried to work out some kind of diplomatic agreement, some exchange of prisoners.

I feel sorry for both sides, but I hope that people will begin to understand that the problems in the middle east have a relisious core, that must be address, and that it must be addressed through multilateral pressure.

At some point, Nations will have to realize that killing a few thousand, Muslim terrorist, here and there, solves nothing, there are thousands and thousands more to take their place. It is the innocent which are being decimated, and destroyed, the terrorists, on the other hand are only increasing. Bombs are not the answer.

Gayle in Md.

Gayle in Md.

I look at Iraq in much the same way. We should have gone about our efforts there differently.

I think that when you are dealing with a region in which you have a great cultural gap, you have to plot your course slowly and carefully, and see both sides of each issue.

I think, worst of all, we have failed to put appropriate pressure on the global Muslim population to address its redical element. We are not addressing the underlying religious issues which fuel terrorism. That can only be accomplished through diplomacy, communication, and understanding. When I say that, it doesn't mean that I think terrorist deserve understanding. Only that their demise must come from within their own religion, from their religious leaders, who have so far been totally irresponsible about addressing the fanaticism which has grown among them, both here in our country, and in other countries. Until we put the heat on Islam from within, we are missing our mark.

nAz
08-02-2006, 09:05 AM
Dee Jerusalem is sacred to all "three major religions " not surprising since all three are based on the same god.

Dome of the Rock:
Located in Jerusalem, the Dome of the Rock is a Muslim shrine which stands on the site which is traditionally believed to be the place where the first Jewish temple was built. It was also here that people believe Abraham tried to sacrifice his son to God, and where Muhammad is believed to have ascended into heaven in order to receive God's commandments.

For Muslims, then, this has become the third holiest site for pilgrimage, after Mecca and Medina. It is probably the oldest surviving example of early Islamic architecture and is modeled after the Christian Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is located nearby.

Err if i remember correctly I believe the Romans built a temple there to honor their true god Jupiter.

Well this new War may give the Israeli ultra religious right the chance to tear down the Muslim Holy Mosque to build the Temple for their coming Messiah, or is the messiah suppose to do that on his own i forget? either way that should set off some huge fireworks.

Gayle in MD
08-02-2006, 09:07 AM
My dear friend, I love that story. For years now, I have signed many of my letters with two words, Be Love. I know I get pi$$ed around here a lot, but, in my heart, I hope the best for all, even you know who! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I have had great good fortune to have often found myself in circumstances, and in situations, which have given me exposure to many different kinds of people, of all colors, and religions, and have had the opportunity to learn valubale lessons about discrimination, and its parent, ignorance. Your story, is touching, and makes me feel happy. Thank you for sharing it.

Your friend...
Gayle in Md. Can be a real b*tch at times, I know....