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View Full Version : How not to scratch on the break.



sofy60
08-08-2006, 11:22 AM
Its an art form that is for sure. I learned something this week which maybe worth sharing. You break and sometimes maybe often the white ball ends up in a side pocket or gets drawn back to one of the corner pockets. You know the reason it scratched is too much bottom. Either you drew it into the side or all the way back. I found one cure for this problem.

Back up the cue ball on your break . Back it up a foot if you can .. about 8 inches off the back rail. It basicly makes the break a longer shot yes. But as you well know its much harder to draw the cue ball on long shots. Its always easier to draw the cue ball on a close shot. This extra foot on your break will stop 2 major breaking issues.

#1 You wont have as much draw on the cue. In fact all your breaks will have less just because of the sheer distance.

#2 Your cue ball may not be rising anymore and maybe on its downfall within that extra foot. This helps you people who like to fly the cue ball off the table when you break. Its much harder to do from downtown on the top rail.

A stiff break from the back center a little offset is amazingly effective still. The cue ball speed does not diminish because of the added distance... same explosion just the cue ball is much more dead and reliable parks itself in the tables center. Plus with a shorter bridge you have higher accuracy.

Scott Lee
08-08-2006, 12:53 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> You know the reason it scratched is too much bottom. Either you drew it into the side or all the way back. <hr /></blockquote>

Not necessarily...the CB will scratch in the side pocket if you contact the head ball slightly off square. Too much draw is not the culprit here. Poor contact on the head ball is.

Scott Lee

wolfdancer
08-08-2006, 01:01 PM
Scott, doesn't sound like a bad idea though...for me to try....I've mastered the side pocket and draw into the corner pocket break scratch shots.
I also have the "in-off" shot down pat...now, if i was only playing English billiards, instead of 9 ball.

sofy60
08-08-2006, 03:56 PM
Hey Scott I know you like to correct people but are you insane ? Where do you rack your balls ? Where do you think side pockets are on pool tables ? Not to the side of the rack spot I can assure you of that. To scratch in the side pocket you must do one of two things.
1) draw the ball back sideways a full foot. DRAW
2) draw the ball back 6 inches or so into the rail and have it bank once and go in the other side. No matter how you cut it its draw. A shot without draw will not come backwards to scratch.
Top hit scratches are another thing.. and deflection scratches. if you miss the head ball without bottom I assure you its not going in a side pocket. its going to the side rail or the forwardly corner pockets.

when was the last time you saw a table?

sofy60
08-08-2006, 03:59 PM
deflection scratches no human can calculate on. No need to worry about them as nothing can be done with a fast break. A slow break may work but can often not yeild results when your opponent is racking loose. So when a fast break is needed to make a ball consider my fast break above. The incedental bottom can be fixed

randyg
08-08-2006, 04:24 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> Hey Scott I know you like to correct people but are you insane ? Where do you rack your balls ? Where do you think side pockets are on pool tables ? Not to the side of the rack spot I can assure you of that. To scratch in the side pocket you must do one of two things.
1) draw the ball back sideways a full foot. DRAW
2) draw the ball back 6 inches or so into the rail and have it bank once and go in the other side. No matter how you cut it its draw. A shot without draw will not come backwards to scratch.
Top hit scratches are another thing.. and deflection scratches. if you miss the head ball without bottom I assure you its not going in a side pocket. its going to the side rail or the forwardly corner pockets.

when was the last time you saw a table? <hr /></blockquote>

Not true. Scott is correct. It's called "Elastistic Collision". I can scratch in the side with top spin, no spin or bottom spin. Last time I've see Scott wrong was when he tried to play me for supper....SPF=randyg

Cornerman
08-08-2006, 05:45 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> Hey Scott I know you like to correct people but are you insane ?

To scratch in the side pocket you must do one of two things.
1) draw the ball back sideways a full foot. DRAW
2) draw the ball back 6 inches or so into the rail and have it bank once and go in the other side. <hr /></blockquote>Not true. The cueball will have a tendency to back up just because of the larger mass that it's hitting. I think most of us have seen (and executed) scratching in the side pocket with follow.

With a dead stun shot (no follow, no draw, and little bounce when the cueball hits the rack), and square hit on the head ball, the cueball should make its way all the way to the head rail (or corner pocket) just because of the mass difference. If you actually hit with any kind of draw, the cueball will rocket back to the head rail or corner pocket.

Fred &lt;~~~ agrees with Scott

sofy60
08-08-2006, 05:55 PM
well can you explain it better ? this is nonsense verbage.
And a little bounce ? What is that .? All the way to the head rail ? Are you insane.. Your stroke must be awful . I dont care if you line up 10 balls for maximum mass as you put it. If you hit it solid and center its a stop shot or very close to a stop shot every time.. More balls dont eual 7 feet of bounce as you claim. Have a robot hit a few balls for you and youll learn more about pool center hit is reliable as sunshine for stopping. If it doesnt stop you didnt hit it center and solid.

If your not even putting bottom and your drawing to the back rail your ignorant of the bottom that you hit.

Your explanation was worthless and made no sense whatsoever.

here it is below.. Pure Brain Malfunction and a misguided application of physics.

With a dead stun shot (no follow, no draw, and little bounce when the cueball hits the rack), and square hit on the head ball, the cueball should make its way all the way to the head rail (or corner pocket) just because of the mass difference. If you actually hit with any kind of draw, the cueball will rocket back to the head rail or corner pocket.

sofy60
08-08-2006, 06:04 PM
Spin, Top , Bottom , Right, Left, Squirt, draw, follow, carem, masse. ect......

those are phenomona found in billiards.

there is no such thing as bounce. It doesnt exist.. this isnt basketball.

If you could put 500 balls in 1 big rack on one huge table..
and you drill those balls with scientifically perfect center hit on the cue ball with a perfect stroke and hit the head ball head on then heres what will happen.

the cue ball will check up perfectly as a stop shot and will be sitting almost touching that one ball .. Depending on how hard you hit it would depend on how many balls moved off the back of the rack only. I dont think any human can break a 500 ball rack and have any real movement of the frontal balls. A few back ones will move though.

Stretch
08-08-2006, 06:36 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> Spin, Top , Bottom , Right, Left, Squirt, draw, follow, carem, masse. ect......

those are phenomona found in billiards.

there is no such thing as bounce. It doesnt exist.. this isnt basketball.

If you could put 500 balls in 1 big rack on one huge table..
and you drill those balls with scientifically perfect center hit on the cue ball with a perfect stroke and hit the head ball head on then heres what will happen.

the cue ball will check up perfectly as a stop shot and will be sitting almost touching that one ball .. Depending on how hard you hit it would depend on how many balls moved off the back of the rack only. I dont think any human can break a 500 ball rack and have any real movement of the frontal balls. A few back ones will move though. <hr /></blockquote>

I agree that changeing the distance of the break shot changes the charactoristics of the ball action even for the same angle which is why it's a good alternate break option if your regular spot is not giveing up pocketed balls for you or your suffering some scratchitis.

As for the physics of cue ball against rack..........all i know is a nose hit transfers the most energy into the rack. I do believe that the elastisity of the balls now in use causes the cueball to rebound backwards momentarily on a nose hit. Stroked as a "stun shot" the cueball will rebound backwards and then sit. St.

randyg
08-08-2006, 06:40 PM
When a person argues with an idiot, he doesn't have a chance to win. The idiot brings you down to his level and then beats you with experience.

As my good friend OZ always says, "they don't know what they don't know......goodby.

TennesseeJoe
08-08-2006, 08:53 PM
This may be a way to test your theory.
Rack the 9 balls.
Take two other balls and put them in the middle of the table lined up directly at the head ball in the rack.
Now take the cue ball and hit the two balls hard so the one closest to the rack hits the head ball. That ball will not have any back spin on it at all. If it comes back towards you--- you may have your answer.

recoveryjones
08-08-2006, 11:21 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> Hey Scott I know you like to correct people but are you insane ? Where do you rack your balls ? Where do you think side pockets are on pool tables ? Not to the side of the rack spot I can assure you of that. To scratch in the side pocket you must do one of two things.
1) draw the ball back sideways a full foot. DRAW
2) draw the ball back 6 inches or so into the rail and have it bank once and go in the other side. No matter how you cut it its draw. A shot without draw will not come backwards to scratch.
Top hit scratches are another thing.. and deflection scratches. if you miss the head ball without bottom I assure you its not going in a side pocket. its going to the side rail or the forwardly corner pockets.

when was the last time you saw a table? <hr /></blockquote>

Try running a volkswagen head on (top spin) into a Mack Truck.The volkswagen will rebound backwards.

When a light cue ball runs into a heavy rack, it can glance into the side pocket and doesn't need draw to do so.Don't argue with BCA master instuctors. They know more about pool than you do.
RJ

Cornerman
08-09-2006, 06:09 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> this is nonsense verbage.<hr /></blockquote>It only seems like that to you, because you don't understand it and it obviously flies in the face of what you believe.

You have a golden opportunity to learn something that you didn't know previously.


[ QUOTE ]
Your explanation was worthless and made no sense whatsoever.

... a misguided application of physics. <hr /></blockquote>I take it you've actually taken physics courses then?

Fred

Deeman3
08-09-2006, 02:46 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> Spin, Top , Bottom , Right, Left, Squirt, draw, follow, carem, masse. ect......

those are phenomona found in billiards. <font color="blue"> I believe these are not phenomona, they are simple physics. </font color>

there is no such thing as bounce. It doesnt exist.. this isnt basketball. <font color="blue"> Hold a 7 ball three feet above the table. Drop it at that height without hitting yourself in the other hand. This is bounce. It occurs when an elastic mass engages another elastic mass. Roll two balls together from opposite ends of the table, when they collide, they will rebound from each other. This is another example of "bounce".

You're welcome.

Deeman</font color>

<hr /></blockquote>

Bob_Jewett
08-09-2006, 03:22 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> This may be a way to test your theory.
Rack the 9 balls.
Take two other balls and put them in the middle of the table lined up directly at the head ball in the rack.
Now take the cue ball and hit the two balls hard so the one closest to the rack hits the head ball. That ball will not have any back spin on it at all. If it comes back towards you--- you may have your answer. <hr /></blockquote>
Exactly the experiment I was thinking of. I'm afraid that a problem may remain, though, if the OP is now so angry that he's unwilling to go to a table and try it.

I believe that you can see the "bounce off the rack" phenomenon with just a 3-ball rack, but I haven't done the experiment yet. I'll try it tonight.

I think the result depends more on the geometry of the "rack" than the weight. That is, if you froze 15 balls in a straight line, you would get less "bounce off the rack" than with a 3-ball rack.

walt8880
08-09-2006, 11:27 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote sofy60:</font><hr> well can you explain it better ? this is nonsense verbage.
And a little bounce ? What is that .? All the way to the head rail ? Are you insane.. Your stroke must be awful . I dont care if you line up 10 balls for maximum mass as you put it. If you hit it solid and center its a stop shot or very close to a stop shot every time.. More balls dont eual 7 feet of bounce as you claim. Have a robot hit a few balls for you and youll learn more about pool center hit is reliable as sunshine for stopping. If it doesnt stop you didnt hit it center and solid.

If your not even putting bottom and your drawing to the back rail your ignorant of the bottom that you hit.

Your explanation was worthless and made no sense whatsoever.

here it is below.. Pure Brain Malfunction and a misguided application of physics.

With a dead stun shot (no follow, no draw, and little bounce when the cueball hits the rack), and square hit on the head ball, the cueball should make its way all the way to the head rail (or corner pocket) just because of the mass difference. If you actually hit with any kind of draw, the cueball will rocket back to the head rail or corner pocket. <hr /></blockquote>

SOFY -

Please be careful and do not stray too far from your home or you may fall off the edge of the earth.

Open your mind, close your mouth and learn something.

Bob_Jewett
08-10-2006, 09:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>... I'll try it tonight.... <hr /></blockquote>
I tried the three experiments last night. The results were pretty interesting. One additional variation I tried was to have the head ball loose a little from the balls behind it. I'll describe the experiment in a future BD column. If anyone has to know the result now, just try it yourself and don't wait to take my word for it.

Cornerman
08-10-2006, 02:43 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>... I'll try it tonight.... <hr /></blockquote>
I tried the three experiments last night. The results were pretty interesting. One additional variation I tried was to have the head ball loose a little from the balls behind it. I'll describe the experiment in a future BD column. If anyone has to know the result now, just try it yourself and don't wait to take my word for it. <hr /></blockquote>Jumped ball?

Fred

Alfie
08-10-2006, 03:42 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>One additional variation I tried was to have the head ball loose a little from the balls behind it.<hr /></blockquote>How loose? Playing card thickness?

TennesseeJoe
08-10-2006, 07:48 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>... I'll try it tonight.... <hr /></blockquote>
I tried the three experiments last night. The results were pretty interesting. One additional variation I tried was to have the head ball loose a little from the balls behind it. I'll describe the experiment in a future BD column. If anyone has to know the result now, just try it yourself and don't wait to take my word for it. <hr /></blockquote>

Well its late tonight and I have to get up early---But you have my curiosity up.

Cornerman
08-11-2006, 04:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote TennesseeJoe:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> One additional variation I tried was to have the head ball loose a little from the balls behind it. I'll describe the experiment in a future BD column. If anyone has to know the result now, just try it yourself and don't wait to take my word for it. <hr /></blockquote>Well its late tonight and I have to get up early---But you have my curiosity up. <hr /></blockquote> I think (in addition to my earlier thought) is that on a normal stroke, it's simply a single ball collision. Stun will stun, follow will follow, draw will draw. On a break force typo of shot, I think the ball will jump off the table forward.

Fred

Bob_Jewett
08-11-2006, 08:42 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>One additional variation I tried was to have the head ball loose a little from the balls behind it.<hr /></blockquote>How loose? Playing card thickness? <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, with just a little daylight. I didn't try the 1/4-inch separation you sometimes see down at The Rusty Tap.

I should try for comparison to have the "cue ball" coming in from the direction of the side-rail break shot.

One problem with the setup is to make sure the setup balls (real cue ball and extra combo ball) get out of the way of the "cue ball" which is the second ball in the combination that determines the direction of the hit.

TennesseeJoe
08-12-2006, 07:53 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Alfie:</font><hr> <blockquote><font class="small">Quote Bob_Jewett:</font><hr>One additional variation I tried was to have the head ball loose a little from the balls behind it.<hr /></blockquote>How loose? Playing card thickness? <hr /></blockquote>
Yes, with just a little daylight. I didn't try the 1/4-inch separation you sometimes see down at The Rusty Tap.

I should try for comparison to have the "cue ball" coming in from the direction of the side-rail break shot.

One problem with the setup is to make sure the setup balls (real cue ball and extra combo ball) get out of the way of the "cue ball" which is the second ball in the combination that determines the direction of the hit. <hr /></blockquote>


Your separation idea had interesting and practical results. I took it one step further with a full Nine ball rack and left the One ball only touching one of the other balls. By breaking from one side then the other---there is a remarkable difference.

In an effort to not steal the thunder from your next article---if anyone wants the results, you have to try it yourself or wait for the article.