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TomBrooklyn
07-13-2002, 10:25 AM
Below is a copy of the rule on making the eight ball on the break from the Billiards Congress Of America website. http://www.bca-pool.com/play/

4.8 8-BALL POCKETED ON THE BREAK
If the 8-ball is pocketed on the break, breaker may ask for a re-rack or have the 8-ball spotted and continue shooting. If the breaker scratches while pocketing the 8-ball on the break, the incoming player has the option of a re-rack or having the 8-ball spotted and begin shooting with ball in hand behind the head string.

Has this always been the rule? Even aside from coin-op table rules, where balls can't be spotted, I thought making the eight on the break was a win, and scratching when making the eight on the break was a loss. I feel making the eight on the break should be rewarded with a win.

Wally_in_Cincy
07-13-2002, 10:32 AM
That's a quirky rule BCA has. I think they're the only ones like that. But I may be wrong.

stickman
07-13-2002, 10:51 AM
I have always played that the eight on the break was a win, but I personally like the idea of playing the game out. Even though there are techniques than will increase the odds of making the eight on the break, I still think it is largely a matter of luck.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-13-2002, 10:54 AM
TomB.

Wally is correct, the BCA is very "quirky"
Seems like the BCA likes to publish a yearly pool rules book and thinks they have to always change something..

The 8 ball rules have been evolving (according to the BCA) since the early 1960s.

The BCA came into existance in the late 1940s to act as promoters and tournament directors for regional qualifiers for the world championships. Somehow they evolved into the billiard industry as a Ruling body.. self acclaimed or otherwise.. they are not the final say in rules.

The Amature organizaions (APA, TAP, VENA and local and regional orgs) all have different rules about the game.

If you look at the <a target="_blank" href=http://www.bca-pool.com>www.bca-pool.com</a> site and its board members, they are mostly billiard industry owners. All of the voting board members are owners.

If you think this is a good thing.. then you might not know anything about Pro Baseball, Football and Basketball.. If the owners don't like it.. its not accepted. And all of these Orgs.. have player UNIONS.

The BCA, just recently, is being forced to have 10% of it board of voting members be Players, to gain accreditation for the Olympics. This means that the board will have to expand by at least two member (from 18 to 20)

Venting.. wondering what the BCA has done for pool lately?

07-13-2002, 02:43 PM
I like the BCA (World Standardized) rule. The way I see it, this rule reduces the influence of dumb luck on my cash flow.

--Goldfish

phil in sofla
07-13-2002, 04:12 PM
You'd REALLY hate the variant of rules (forget whose they are, just now) where the 8 on the break LOSES the game!!! The theory isn't all that bad, I admit, that you failed to first run your group off, and then called the pocket for the 8, but I do not like that version of what happens when the 8 is made on the break.

A friend and I play yet another variation when we match up in 8-ball, that the 8 on the break wins if you call the pocket ahead of time.

Alfie
07-13-2002, 10:07 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Below is a copy of the rule on making the eight ball on the break from the [BCA]
[snip]
I feel making the eight on the break should be rewarded with a win. <hr></blockquote> Why?

This world standardized rule (WPA) rule makes sense to me. It is simple, consistent with its rule set and with the WPA attitude of lessening the importance of luck in 8 ball breaking (also in this vein- the table is always open until the first legally pocketed ball AFTER the break. AND it cuts back on all that wild, side of the rack breaking. I prefer it.

TomBrooklyn
07-14-2002, 01:46 AM
Why?

It adds sizzle and excitement to the break. It adds another dimension to the game, the opportunity to win in one shot. It almost always requires a lot of skill and a little luck, not just a lot of luck. It requires an excellent break shot, powerful and accurate on the second ball. Like breaking in 9 ball, it doesn't always seem to be working, moving the cue ball around some or to the other side of the table may have a different effect. As far as making it hitting the head ball, thats very rare. Even with a second ball hit, it is very hard to do, so it won't happen often.

I like to try to make it sometimes. I roughly estimate I make the eight on the break when hitting the head ball about 1 in 100 times. When hitting the second ball, I'd guess it's about 25-30 to 1.

Also, no other pocketed balls are returned to the table in eight ball, so why should the eight ball itself be an exception? If the eight ball jumps off the table, it results in a loss, so pocketing the eight on the break would be a logical juxtaposition to this event.

Alfie
07-14-2002, 05:22 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> It adds another dimension to the game, the opportunity to win in one shot. <hr></blockquote> Do you also like the "if you make the eight on the break and scratch, you lose" rule?

07-14-2002, 06:26 AM
Tom:

Your reply to Alfie raises a couple of interesting points, but I don't see this your way either.

You want sizzle and excitement on the break. I prefer the pleasure of planning and executing series of shots.

You want the opportunity to win in one shot. Well, you wanna leave balls 1-7 behind the bar so we can get to the good part of the game?

Alfie referred to consistency with the rule set, and that's really the issue here. A provision for winning on the break is simply contrary to the theme of 8-ball.

Of course, you can always bet that you're gonna make the 8 on the break if you crave that old sizzle.

Regards,
Goldfish

07-14-2002, 05:06 PM
TOM: This is not the forum for me to defend the BCA. I could spend the next several days outlineing the various programs that the BCA has in place. Most all of these programs protect the integrety of our sport (amatuer or Pro). But you certainly have the right to "vent" on.

But the rules Tom, really. I've been on the BCA Rules Committee for about 20 years now. In these years I have seen the finest and fairest set of 8-ball rules ever written, tweeked and played. The Rules Committee has always consisted of players, authors, editors and instructors. All with valued opinions and view points. All with the interest of the game first. All of our BCA Rules have to be radified by the WPA, and then our World Standardized Rules can only be modified every 5 years.

It may be that each League has their own tweeked rules. But go any place in our pool world, and you will find the knowledgeable players always refering to the World Standardized Rules.

So Tom, just what is your "beef". Now's your chance to "vent" with a BCA Board Member that's on the players side. Talk to me.

Randy Goettlicher:
BCA Board of Directors.
Chairperson of the Players Committee.
Member of the Referee's Committee.
Member of the Instructor's Committee.
Member of the UNITED STATES CONGRESS OF BILLIARD SPORTS.

Thanks Tom

jjinfla
07-14-2002, 05:17 PM
Tom, At the end of Ray martin's book (99 critical shots) he goes over some rules and for 8 ball he states that if you make the 8 on the break you lose. The reasoning was that in the game of 8-ball you must make all 7 of your balls before you make the 8 ball. His book was written in 1976. Jake~~~guilty of not reading any of the other responses

TomBrooklyn
07-14-2002, 05:26 PM
Not a big beef, Randy,
I would just prefer that if the eight ball gets pocketed on the break that it would be a win. To go along with that, I would prefer that if a scratch occured and the eight ball was made on the same break, it would be a loss. Thanks for listening.

Edit note: I just realized that randyg was replying to TomInCincy. Also, that is interesting note about the '76 ed. of 99 shots jiminfl made.

Harold Acosta
07-14-2002, 05:30 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> Below is a copy of the rule on making the eight ball on the break from the Billiards Congress Of America website. <a target="_blank" href=http://www.bca-pool.com/play/>http://www.bca-pool.com/play/</a>

4.8 8-BALL POCKETED ON THE BREAK
If the 8-ball is pocketed on the break, breaker may ask for a re-rack or have the 8-ball spotted and continue shooting. If the breaker scratches while pocketing the 8-ball on the break, the incoming player has the option of a re-rack or having the 8-ball spotted and begin shooting with ball in hand behind the head string.

Has this always been the rule? Even aside from coin-op table rules, where balls can't be spotted, I thought making the eight on the break was a win, and scratching when making the eight on the break was a loss. I feel making the eight on the break should be rewarded with a win. <hr></blockquote>

Tom this is how we play it in Puerto Rico:

Bar or Pool hall:

8 at the break is a win. 8 at the break and scratch, loss of game; however, in many places here, you will be given the opportunity to play again, so that you can really have a chance at the table. This rule is unwritten; more a gentlemen's rule; it is not written on stone. It depends where you play.

Money Games: 8 at the break is a win, 8 and scratch is a loss.

Regular Tournament play - Modified BCA Rules: 8 at the break is NOT a win. 8 and the scratch is not a loss. You have to win your games at the table.

Tournament Play BCA rules: When the tournament indicates that it is strictly BCA rules, we play it by the book.

On all the games listed above: When the 8 ball is the last one for any player, making the 8 and a scratch is a loss of game.

In other words, in PR when you go into a pool hall or bar, your best bet is to watch and ask what the rules are. After a while you get accustomed to the different rules.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-14-2002, 07:28 PM
Randy,

I am aware of the BCA rules committee and its on again off again sanctioning of the BCA. I have discussed various rules interpretations with Bob Jewett and Mike Shamos (former and/or current members of the rules committee). There is some rule re-write that need to be done. I am assuming that the BCA is waiting to include them in the next yearly issue of their 'standardized' rules.

I have communicated with John Lewis of the BCA and WPA about the various rules that I refer to, and he has never (NEVER) mentioned anything about a "BCA Rules" Committee or its members. Just his views.

I would be glad to forward all our correspondence Mr. Lewis and I had about a particular rule "interpretation".

07-14-2002, 08:21 PM
The reasoning is that the game can be neither won nor lost on the break. Patti Ireland, BCA National Referee

07-14-2002, 08:31 PM
TOM: A BCA Rules Committe doe's indeed exist. Bob Jewett and Mike Shamos were part of that committee.

What rule interpetation are you refering to?

Glad to help...randyg

Wally_in_Cincy
07-15-2002, 07:41 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: TomBrooklyn:</font><hr> I feel making the eight on the break should be rewarded with a win. <hr></blockquote>

I agree. If snapping the money ball is a win in 9-ball, why not 8-ball also?

SPetty
07-15-2002, 08:05 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: Wally_in_Cincy:</font><hr> I agree. If snapping the money ball is a win in 9-ball, why not 8-ball also? <hr></blockquote>Using that logic, slopping in the 9-ball is a win, but slopping in the 8-ball is a loss. No fair, eh?

Wally_in_Cincy
07-15-2002, 08:55 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote: SPetty:</font><hr> Using that logic, slopping in the 9-ball is a win, but slopping in the 8-ball is a loss. No fair, eh? <hr></blockquote>

Heck I didn't even think about that /ccboard/images/icons/laugh.gif.
I don't play much 9-ball. At my skill level there's too much luck involved /ccboard/images/icons/cool.gif.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-15-2002, 11:26 AM
actually two rules

Both are 14.1 related

15th Ball stays in the rack if it doesn't interfere with the racking of the 14 balls. If its on the spot it does not interfere? if its on the wing ball spot.. or anyother spot? and does not interfere? does it stay in the rack? And, what does the BCA mean by "does not interfere"?

The other is cue ball in hand behind the head string. The inning should not start until the cue ball has passed the head string. Some players think they can take an intentional foul by sticking the cue ball in the jaws of the cornter pockets of the kitchen and freezing the ball so that the incomming player is hooked.

BIH in the kitchen for 14.1 has inconsistant rules in the 1999, 2000 and 2001 rule books.

The WPA rules have always stated that the inning doesn't start until the cue ball passes the headstring.

07-15-2002, 07:02 PM
TOM: Those are great questions.

I think that the 2001 rule book on page 74 section 6, covers the first situation. The 15th ball on the spot doesn't interfere with racking.

It's to my knowledge that with BIH the inning doesn't start until the cue-ball passes the headstring. I will try to find out for sure. Thanks...randyg

phil in sofla
07-16-2002, 09:20 AM
That just means the 15th ball isn't somewhere where either the other 14 balls have to go (within the rack area, proper), or where the rack has to go to rack those 14 balls (the 15th ball cannot be closer than the thickness of the rack to where the balls sit, once racked, or else the rack would move the 15th ball when you're racking the other 14).

Interestingly, I guess this means that whether the 15th ball is interfering or not may depend on the RACK you are using, whether it's a thin rack, or say the thick Diamond rack.

Tom_In_Cincy
07-16-2002, 06:34 PM
Phil
You are correct in this 15th ball situation for most cases, the 15th ball goes to the headspot.
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr>
From the BCA website Rule 6.7.6.
If the 15th (un-pocketed) ball of a rack and/or the cue ball interferes with the triangle being lowered straight down into position for racking, refer to the diagram, which indicates the proper manner of relocating balls. (The gray boxes are those situations in which there is no interference, both balls remain in position.)
<hr></blockquote>

If the 15th ball is on the foot spot.. it should remain in the rack. And, if the 15th ball or cue ball is in a position inside the rack that is on a normal position (like a wing ball) what is the difference? the rack will not touch it if lowered straight down, so it does not interfere. This is my point.... The Verbage and "what if" table needs to be made simpler. A cue ball or 15th ball could be inside the rack, on a spot, and not interfere with the racking, buy there own definition. Hence my questions.