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pilotguyder
09-04-2006, 09:28 AM
I know this has been discussed before but when I posted this on another forum no one dared a response. I hope some one here can shed some light on this.

I play in leagues in Angeles City, Philippines everyday but Saturday and Sunday (play bank on Sunday with old rules with a cue maker) and we have as many as 16 teams playing in these leagues. We play with BCA rules except for a 8-ball on the break is considered a win.

Now my question: on many an occasion a player will touch a ball while setting up for a shot and will try to invoke rule:
1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball) with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul. In short, if the accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul. In any case, the Tournament Director must be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot. It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls. At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a shot.
I feel that rule:
3.21 FOULS BY TOUCHING BALLS
It is a foul to strike, touch or in any way make contact with the cue ball in play or any object balls in play with anything (the body, clothing, chalk, me- mechanical bridge, cue shaft, etc.) except the cue tip (while attached to the cue shaft), which may contact the cue ball in the execution of a legal shot. Whenever a referee is presiding over a match, any object ball moved during a standard foul must be returned as closely as possible to its original position as judged by the referee, and the incoming player does not have the option of restoration.

should be the governing rule before they try to use the exception rule. Please look at the following situation before you make a decision. I come to the table and have no really good shot and elect to leave my opponent in a situation were he/she has to jack up over the ball and possibly need a rest to execute the shot. In the process of making the shot he/she disturbs my ball that I purposely put in the way to make the shot difficult with the possibility that I might gain a "ball-in-hand" for my efforts of giving my opponent a hard shot. Should he/she be able to use rule 1.16.1 to justify his/her poor shooting skills and rob me of my reward for setting this shot up?

This discussion comes up at least once every season and more often than not, once a month. I have combed the net for some discussion on this rule (1.16.1) and most times it is referred to as that "poorly written rule".

I hope some of your experts can shed some light on these two rules so I can win an argument or two.

Thank You.

randyg
09-04-2006, 09:42 AM
Do you have ref's for every match?...randyg

pilotguyder
09-04-2006, 10:05 AM
No Refs, just a lot of comments from the gallery.

randyg
09-04-2006, 11:57 AM
Cue Ball fouls only.

jungle_jim
09-05-2006, 10:59 AM
I'm usually pretty good at parsing an argument, but danged if I can figure this one out. The two rules definitely seem to conflict.

Have you talked to Roger? He says he's a certified referee on the Asian circuit. Plays for Stampede, and can often be found afternoons at Margarita Station. (But I reckon you already know that if you're a regular in the AC leagues.) /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(I don't recognize your nic, but I wonder if we know each other--I play in the less "serious" afternoon social leagues. Wet Seals on Mondays and Caddy Shack on Thursdays.)

Cheers,

Jim

Fran Crimi
09-05-2006, 03:14 PM
I go back quite a way to the evolution of some of the rules, as well as the logic behind them so I'll take a crack at it.

First of all, I totally disagree with the rule that states that if a referee is presiding over the match that the match MUST be all fouls. That is utterly ridiculous and not the case in real life.

Second, It should not be presumed that if a referee is NOT presiding over the match, that the match is automatically cue ball foul only, particularly in 14.1. The correct way to play 14.1 is all ball fouls, whether a ref is present or not. If an individual league or association or private group wishes to avoid possible controversies between players who are policing themselves, then they may want to change it to cue ball foul only, but that was NOT the rule and whoever changed it, doesn't understand the true nature of 14.1.

As for 8 Ball and 9 Ball, both games have been traditionally played with cue ball foul only, regardless of whether a ref presides over the match or not.

Problems arise when certain groups decide that the rules should change. If I were you, in your league, I'd play cue ball fouls only for 8 and 9 ball since NO ONE has traditionally played all fouls in those games, and I don't care who does it now. This is the way those games have been played for 30 years, just like for 75-100 years of players playing all fouls in 14.1.

My advice is to ignore the verbiage and play the game the way it makes sense.

As for the situation you described, no it wouldn't necessarily be a foul playing by cue ball fouls only,if it didn't interfere with the outcome of the shot, but I don't see it as a huge advantage when your opponent's cue stick hits an object ball before it hits the cue ball. So they got lucky....Should we change the rules every time someone gets lucky on us? If you ask me, that's how things become such a mess in the first place. Someone gets a bad break and a rule gets changed.

After awhile you start to lose the logic, intent and consistency of the rules and you wind up with something like you pointed out.

Fran

KuyaBob
09-16-2006, 04:19 PM
Hello,
Glad to know there still is billiard activity in Angeles City. I will review your posted question and will try to give you an answer some time later. I had to leave the Philippines in 1991 after spending 13 consecutive years in Angeles city. During the early 1980's I was one of the original founders of early league activity, evolving into the largest league in the world at the time. Some of our rules were even adopted by the BCA later on. Since you are acitive the leagues there, was wondering if some of my old pals are still around in the area, and would sure like to get in touch with them somehow, maybe with your help. I had the chance to play Efren Reyes a couple of times in what used to be called the "Little wheel" and the "Trophy Club" on Fields Ave. when he was at his peak before he went Stateside. Cuemaker Mario Paras and his brother Paul were active in the cuemaking business at the time and were close friends. "Tik" at the DMZ club is still active, I believe and would like to contact him also. If you happen to run into any of these oldtimers, tell them Kuya Bob from the "Little Wheel" says hello. Thanks for your assistance.

Bob