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johnnyz86
09-05-2006, 04:18 PM
So i'm trying to get better at pool, and need to work on a couple things...

first things first: stroke.

I can do the ol' dot to dot pretty decently with light~medium strokes with top and even bottom english. However, adding more power reveals the imperfections in my follow through. I usually end up putting left spin on the ball because my elbow pops out. I dont know if i started doing this because i heard so many bad things about elbow drop (i don't at all - instead it goes away from my body).

Rotating my body and angle at which my arm hangs help but i don't naturally do it usually. Naturally it likes to stay towards my body - or maybe my upper arm just likes to come out at more of an angle. Also, i use a short bridge and duck down as many have recommended, and possibly as a result, enducing elbow drop as a follow through which i've seen some good people do, feels weird. As a result, a full fast stroke results in elbow coming out. Is the only way to fix this rotating my body even more? or should i try to make my upper arm come out closer to my body? Any tips?

Also with strong strokes, the cue jumps out of my open bridge. Is this normal? or do i need to concentrate more on follow through?

Another stroke I'm having problems with is the over a ball shot. on close to rail shots i do closed bridge when i need backspin and it works fine - but thats because i have the ledge. Over a ball, my hand goes down much more and I can't get up as high with a closed bridge. How do you guys keep your stroke straight with open bridge very raised shots? how do you position your arm and hold the cue?

Now on to non stroke questions...

Spin-Induced-Throw: Is this positively or negatively related to power? I thought originally more power = more SIT (like CIT), but it seems to appear the opposite. Or maybe I am mistaking the throw for squirt or lack there of. I try to keep my bridge length at the pivot point when i add spin - then compensate.

Collision-Induced-Throw: Does anyone do a separate calculation for this? or just on high angle, medium~high power shots?

And lastly, those of us calculated shot players, how do you go about each shot?

This is what I do:

-Figure out normal angle to hit bal
-Figure out set for next ball and what english/power to use
(Should I possibly compensate for CIT here?)
-Get down behind cue ball and select spot to hit on cue ball (using BHE)
-If left/right english is used, compensate for SIT depending on how much spin, power, and distance from OB (should this done before applying BHE? or does it matter)
-practices strokes and shoot.
-follow through of course

Thanks,
Johnny

randyg
09-05-2006, 04:56 PM
Johnny: Contact Scott Lee before you hurt yourself.....SPF=randyg

pooltchr
09-05-2006, 08:43 PM
I would guess you may have an alignment problem, are dropping your elbow more than you think, and gripping the cue too tightly on the shots requiring more speed.

Take Randy's advice!
Steve

Jal
09-05-2006, 10:37 PM
Welcome to the forum. I can't comment on your stroke issues because I share many of them. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote johnnyz86:</font><hr>....Now on to non stroke questions...

Spin-Induced-Throw: Is this positively or negatively related to power? I thought originally more power = more SIT (like CIT), but it seems to appear the opposite. <hr /></blockquote>Yes, you're right. Generally, more speed (power) results in less throw. But throw is fairly complicated and just about any generalization has exceptions. The exception here is for moderate cut angles (less than 30 degrees) stun shots, or near stun. For these, throw is independent of speed.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote johnnyz86:</font><hr>Collision-Induced-Throw: Does anyone do a separate calculation for this? or just on high angle, medium~high power shots?<hr /></blockquote>I don't think many players actually concern themselves with explicit throw compensation, as many or maybe even most are unaware of it in the first place. In a sense this is a good thing, otherwise you might come away from the tabe with a severe headache.

But I think there's an advantage to knowing some of the general trends, such as the speed dependency just mentioned. Regarding this, Dr. Dave Alciatore is currently writing a series of articles on for Billiards Digest magazine and has made them available here:

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/

See the "Instructional Articles" section. You can find more in "Online Discussion Threads". If you really want to get into it, look in his "Technical Proof (TP) analyses" for TP A.14, but the magazine articles will likely be sufficient .

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote johnnyz86:</font><hr>And lastly, those of us calculated shot players, how do you go about each shot?

This is what I do:

-Figure out normal angle to hit bal
-Figure out set for next ball and what english/power to use
(Should I possibly compensate for CIT here?)
-Get down behind cue ball and select spot to hit on cue ball (using BHE)
-If left/right english is used, compensate for SIT depending on how much spin, power, and distance from OB (should this done before applying BHE? or does it matter)
-practices strokes and shoot.
-follow through of course<hr /></blockquote>It seems to me that you might be being too analytical. But as one who relies mainly on feel, I may be predjudiced. If you want some pretty detailed discussions on the application of backhand english, I would recommend Colin Colenso's posts on the AZB forum. The forum is here:

http://forums.azbilliards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=6

He also has a video on Youtube demonstrating his technique. Search for "24 stroke shots" or go here:

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&amp;search_sort=rele vance&amp;search_query=billiards+24&amp;search=Search

He goes through his thought process as he sets up and the results are pretty impressive. To download the video, copy the link to it and then paste it here:

http://javimoya.com/blog/youtube_en.php

Jim

Fran Crimi
09-06-2006, 05:49 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote johnnyz86:</font><hr> So i'm trying to get better at pool, and need to work on a couple things...

first things first: stroke.

I can do the ol' dot to dot pretty decently with light~medium strokes with top and even bottom english. However, adding more power reveals the imperfections in my follow through. I usually end up putting left spin on the ball because my elbow pops out. I dont know if i started doing this because i heard so many bad things about elbow drop (i don't at all - instead it goes away from my body).

Rotating my body and angle at which my arm hangs help but i don't naturally do it usually. Naturally it likes to stay towards my body - or maybe my upper arm just likes to come out at more of an angle. Also, i use a short bridge and duck down as many have recommended, and possibly as a result, enducing elbow drop as a follow through which i've seen some good people do, feels weird. As a result, a full fast stroke results in elbow coming out. Is the only way to fix this rotating my body even more? or should i try to make my upper arm come out closer to my body? Any tips?

<font color="blue">Well, if the cue ball isn't going straight when you do your straight up and down drill, then you have to make a change. There a couple of reasons why your elbow maybe angling out. One is that you may have a cross dominant eye, and you're pulling your cue inside your body to be under your inside eye. If that's the case, then adjust your stance slightly to stand more sideways to the shot so you can get your inside eye over the cue without pulling your arm under your body.

The other possibility is that you developed a habit of approaching the shot with the center of your torso. That means you are stradling the line of the shot with your legs. Again, you would have to pull your arm under your torso in order to get your cue stick in line with the shot, when it should really be located along the side of your body, since that's where your arm is resting.

There are a few other more minor possibilities but those are the two major ones. </font color>


Also with strong strokes, the cue jumps out of my open bridge. Is this normal? or do i need to concentrate more on follow through?

<font color="blue">Yes, this is fairly common. You could try clamping the cue a bit more tightly with your v bridge, but I wouldn't worry too much about it as long as you're being accurate. </font color>

Another stroke I'm having problems with is the over a ball shot. on close to rail shots i do closed bridge when i need backspin and it works fine - but thats because i have the ledge. Over a ball, my hand goes down much more and I can't get up as high with a closed bridge. How do you guys keep your stroke straight with open bridge very raised shots? how do you position your arm and hold the cue?

<font color="blue"> Study the 3 cushion players. For over ball shooting they're the best out there. </font color>

Now on to non stroke questions...

Spin-Induced-Throw: Is this positively or negatively related to power? I thought originally more power = more SIT (like CIT), but it seems to appear the opposite. Or maybe I am mistaking the throw for squirt or lack there of. I try to keep my bridge length at the pivot point when i add spin - then compensate.

Collision-Induced-Throw: Does anyone do a separate calculation for this? or just on high angle, medium~high power shots?

And lastly, those of us calculated shot players, how do you go about each shot?

This is what I do:

-Figure out normal angle to hit bal
-Figure out set for next ball and what english/power to use
(Should I possibly compensate for CIT here?)
-Get down behind cue ball and select spot to hit on cue ball (using BHE)
-If left/right english is used, compensate for SIT depending on how much spin, power, and distance from OB (should this done before applying BHE? or does it matter)
-practices strokes and shoot.
-follow through of course

Thanks,
Johnny <hr /></blockquote>

ceebee
09-06-2006, 09:23 AM
Look at the BCA website for a certified Instructor. Get some help from that person &amp; keep them handy as a Coach..

Cornerman
09-07-2006, 06:24 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote johnnyz86:</font><hr> So i'm trying to get better at pool, and need to work on a couple things...<hr /></blockquote> Lotsa questions. I'll echo what others said. Seek an instructor. It's tough to help using words, considering how many questions you've put in.

[ QUOTE ]
This is what I do:

-Get down behind cue ball and select spot to hit on cue ball (using BHE)
-If left/right english is used, compensate for SIT depending on how much spin, power, and distance from OB (should this done before applying BHE? or does it matter)
<hr /></blockquote>Here's a video from Colin Colenso as to when he compensates for SIT when using BHE. It's a long video, but worth the watch. He compensates before. I think it's a good idea.

Fred

http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html

Jal
09-07-2006, 02:16 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Cornerman:</font><hr>...Here's a video from Colin Colenso as to when he compensates for SIT when using BHE. It's a long video, but worth the watch. He compensates before. I think it's a good idea.

Fred

http://www.cue-tv.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/8/2209739.html <hr /></blockquote>That's the one I meant. Sorry for the confusion.

Jim

Stretch
09-07-2006, 05:23 PM
Hey thanks for the link Fred! Lots of good stuff on that site. Really enjoyed the matches too. /ccboard/images/graemlins/smile.gif St.

Qtec
09-07-2006, 07:50 PM
Although Colin did demonstrate the basic principals, we are still reliant of his perception and his stroke as to the accuracy of the demo. I did think some of the variations were extreme.[ the IPT cloth maybe? The balls? ]

I think one of the things that was proved was that BHE is not as simple as it is made out to be!
I understand the principal and in theory it should work but.....it relies on blind faith and not feel.
If you have lined up correctly and you pivot but it looks wrong. Following the theory you must shoot!
What do you do if you miss?
What went wrong?
To me this is the most important of the problems with systems.
Not an attack Fred just a few observations. One of the main things you have to do in a match- when you are not playing well- is to get back to basics and things you can trust. Basically, if I don't know why I mised a ball, then I am in trouble!
In such a situation you can only rely on yourself, not systems that dictate that you hit a ball sometimes in conflict with your own judgement.

Have you any idea what I am taliking about. /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif [ not sure if my point is clear]

If you are a serious player and you have been playing 10 years with the same cue, don't you think you would know what the QB does when you give it X amount of IE?

Snooker players find a cue that siuts them and learn to play with it.
Pool players are always looking for a cue that will make them play better!

Qtec

pooltchr
09-07-2006, 07:58 PM
Q,
A very well thought-out, well stated post with reasonable conclusions!
Why can't you do that on NPR??? /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Steve

Qtec
09-07-2006, 08:18 PM
The difference is I actually do know something pool/snooker/competition and I know absolutely nothing about politics! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Qtec..thanks anyway /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Just wait, Fred , hal etc will beat me to a pulp on this one. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif [ joking /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif]

Cornerman
09-08-2006, 06:07 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> I think one of the things that was proved was that BHE is not as simple as it is made out to be!
I understand the principal and in theory it should work but.....it relies on blind faith and not feel.<hr /></blockquote>


No argument here. I think you have a few choices when compensating for squirt. Feel is one of them. Planned compensation is another. I consider BHE as planned compensation.

[ QUOTE ]
If you have lined up correctly and you pivot but it looks wrong. Following the theory you must shoot!
What do you do if you miss?<hr /></blockquote> IMO, the use of the Aim &amp; Pivot method is the only method of squirt compensation that has parameters such that you can make some kind of realistic conclusions based on how you missed.

[ QUOTE ]
Pool players are always looking for a cue that will make them play better!<hr /></blockquote>I'd like to think this isn't true.

Fred

Righty
09-10-2006, 04:34 PM
Before you go shelling out tons of cash to the instructors, pick a professional pool player who has the same body type as you, and find one who has stance and stroke that are similar to yours. Watch how they approach the shot, get down on the shot, and try to copy them. Practice like that for a week and see if your stroke improves. If all else fails, then find an instructor. It doesn't have to be a BCA instructor, some of them charge an arm and a leg. Find a good player who is well known for being a good teacher, with reasonable prices.

Fran Crimi
09-10-2006, 08:12 PM
Well hell. That's the last time I'll offer free advice. Next time pay and pay a lot.

Fran

johnnyz86
09-10-2006, 08:55 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Fran Crimi:</font><hr> Well hell. That's the last time I'll offer free advice. Next time pay and pay a lot.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

hah sorry i've been reading the responses and trying out many different things, i've just been kinda busy with school!

im glad you offered your advice because the main issue iwas having was as you said, approaching the shot incorrectly and having an odd stance. i changed it up and things are going a lot better. where do i send the check to?

another issue was gripping too hard which i've changed and wow is draw a lot easier (and combined with the stance correction, a lot more consistant and accurate).

I've looked at some of dr. dave's stuff and it is exactly what im looking for! also colin's videos.

now that my shots are a lot more consistant, i really need to work on power control and setting with cushions and not just varying amounts of follow/draw like the rest of the newbies.

and thanks for the consideration of watching professinoal players that most importatnly have the same body type. i'm a shorter smaller guy and using longer bridges creates all types of problems (requires back hand to be gripped further back, resulting in shoulder movement, etc). I'm 5'6~7" 130 lbs who should i check out? women pros? /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

as for open vs closed, i've been liking open a lot more - even on breaks(recent thing, a lot less restrictive and more powerful since i can jump forward into it and follow through). for one, my shaft is probably due for a cleaning unless i get one of those gloves. i'm still pretty bad at over the ball shots - i can hit the ball with little to no english, it just seems like my aim gets distorted on the jack up. i will check out some 3 cushion players to also learn how to use the cushions.

thanks for everyone for the input!