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trokinine
10-09-2006, 03:39 AM
Hello,

I've been playing for 1 year and I'm still looking for the "perfect" gestures (stance, bridge, grip, etc). I've just realized that my elbow is dropping (I think/hope it happens after cue ball contact) and I would like to eliminate what I think being a bad habit.

After several attempts, it seems like if I really want my elbow not to move, I have to get a very light grip. The cue is almost sliding in my hand after cue ball contact. My question are:
- is it a mechanical effect (i.e. not dropping the elbow implies to get a lose grip)?
- is that bad? Isn't the grip too loose?

The following article seems to state it is normal: http://www.azbilliards.com/instructional/b2.cfm

I'm afraid to lose control of the cue when shooting hard.

Thanks for your answers.

Nordost_Valhalla
10-09-2006, 03:56 AM
The best is if you watch players better than yourself and "steal" their stroke. After a few hours of watching something sticks into your brain and it becomes your habit to mimic that better player. So it's like you are using his stroke when you play instead of your own.

I found this video: http://poollogics.is-a-geek.net/realvideo.htm

I think that stroke looks fine even though the author says it doesn't. The stroke there looks loose but he can still shoot hard, I don't know how he does it but it look darn good! I will try to mimic that stroke myself and see what happens. /ccboard/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

robodog66
10-09-2006, 06:20 AM
I tend to agree with Nordost. The way I learned how to shoot pool was by watching the people that were considerably better than myself. I used to do this hours on end and then I went and got my own table and started practicing not only particular shots that I didn't understand but the strokes they used to get their results.

Everyone has their own way of shooting. Sure, most of them look the same but there is uniqueness to each person's stroke. But if you watch the better players, you will tend to pick up their habits and you'll start to get better. Before long, you'll be more focused on making the ball and getting shape rather than the mechanics of your stroke.

dr_dave
10-09-2006, 06:58 AM
Elbow drop is probably the most discussed topic on this forum. Check out the links under "elbow drop" under "stroke" here (http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/pool/threads.html) to read some of the important highlights.

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote trokinine:</font><hr> Hello,

I've been playing for 1 year and I'm still looking for the "perfect" gestures (stance, bridge, grip, etc). I've just realized that my elbow is dropping (I think/hope it happens after cue ball contact) and I would like to eliminate what I think being a bad habit.

After several attempts, it seems like if I really want my elbow not to move, I have to get a very light grip. The cue is almost sliding in my hand after cue ball contact. My question are:
- is it a mechanical effect (i.e. not dropping the elbow implies to get a lose grip)?
- is that bad? Isn't the grip too loose?

The following article seems to state it is normal: http://www.azbilliards.com/instructional/b2.cfm

I'm afraid to lose control of the cue when shooting hard.

Thanks for your answers. <hr /></blockquote>

trokinine
10-09-2006, 07:20 AM
Thanks Doc. I've read all these threads but I'm disposed to read them again to find my answer (after all english is not my mother tongue). I think they focus more on dropping elbow than on the mechanical link (if exists?) between elbow and grip.

Thanks.

PS: Doc, I'm a great fan of your book. I wanted to email you for a long time to ask if you plan to publish a second volume? It would be fantastic. For example, I think a chapter on diamond systems could be interesting coming from you. You wrote an article about it but it is too short.

I learnt many things in your book that even good players in my pool hall don't know (e.g. using english induced throw when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, etc.).

dr_dave
10-09-2006, 08:52 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote trokinine:</font><hr> Thanks Doc. I've read all these threads but I'm disposed to read them again to find my answer (after all english is not my mother tongue). I think they focus more on dropping elbow than on the mechanical link (if exists?) between elbow and grip.<hr /></blockquote>
There is no direct mechanical link (although, one might have a psychological link if one thinks about it too much /ccboard/images/graemlins/wink.gif ). Also, a light grip is usually a good thing, regardless of what your elbow is doing.

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote trokinine:</font><hr>PS: Doc, I'm a great fan of your book. I wanted to email you for a long time to ask if you plan to publish a second volume? It would be fantastic. For example, I think a chapter on diamond systems could be interesting coming from you. You wrote an article about it but it is too short.

I learnt many things in your book that even good players in my pool hall don't know (e.g. using english induced throw when the cue ball is frozen to an object ball, etc.). <hr /></blockquote>
Thank you for your flattering comments. I do plan to write several other books, but I'm not sure when I and/or my publisher will decide to commit to it. I hope to publish the 2nd book within a couple of years.

Regards,
Dave

Fran Crimi
10-09-2006, 10:46 AM
I agree with those who said it's a good idea to watch the better players to get an idea of different types of grip. Here's a clue for you: Study their grips in their follow-throughs. That will give you a lot of information about how they hold the cue. What does their back hand look like when it's all over? Where is the pressure? Front or back of their hand? What does the wrist look like in relation to the arm and cue? Is it flat, running along the butt of the cue, or is it bent?

And most importantly of all...take note of the shot they just shot. Grips and arms change sometimes, depending on the shot.

Fran

Bob_Jewett
10-09-2006, 06:13 PM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote trokinine:</font><hr> ... The following article seems to state it is normal: http://www.azbilliards.com/instructional/b2.cfm

I'm afraid to lose control of the cue when shooting hard.

Thanks for your answers. <hr /></blockquote>
I think the loose grip illustrated in that article is broken. Perhaps the author was trying to get the player not to use too tight a grip by exaggerating in the other direction. I don't think there should be daylight between the stick and your thumb/grip finger(s).

Can you play with the grip illustrated? Sure. There are several examples of good players who use such a mostly-air grip. I don't think it's the right grip to start people with, and I don't think it's a good grip for consistency.

cushioncrawler
10-09-2006, 06:52 PM
The 2-finger (loose) grip was in fashion in about 1912 for english billiards (12' table). I used it occasionally and i found that it is very forgiving, ie very accurate.

If u play the qball up the table it will hit the exact spot that u aimed for on the cushion -- every time -- but the downside might be that the qball will uzually have some sidespin, sometimes left, sometimes right, or at least more of what u allwayz get when uzing a full grip anyhow. Duznt efren uze a loose grip!!!!! madMac.

Qtec
10-09-2006, 07:01 PM
One sign that shows that you are dropping your elbow - the bad way- is by watching where the tip of your Q goes after contact with the Qball. If your tip is going up and not straight thru to the target, that would be a sign of an adverse elbow drop.
Too tight a grip could be the culprit here, then again it could be more serious.
You have to let the Q go.

Qtec

Qtec
10-09-2006, 07:10 PM
I think the grip is a personal preference and many top players hold the Q with daylight showing. I would actually say the majority of snooker players I have seen, have grips showing daylight but that might have to do with snooker Qs having thinner butts! /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

My own rule is that if the wrist is locked, then you are holding the Q too tightly.

JMO

Qtec

trokinine
10-10-2006, 01:03 AM
Thanks for your answers.

Fran Crimi
10-10-2006, 05:34 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote Qtec:</font><hr> One sign that shows that you are dropping your elbow - the bad way- is by watching where the tip of your Q goes after contact with the Qball. If your tip is going up and not straight thru to the target, that would be a sign of an adverse elbow drop.


Qtec <hr /></blockquote>

I think it's tough to generalize like that. A lot of players prefer letting the stick finish upwards when applying topspin with an elbow drop. Power long shots for example, often result in the cue finishing upwards, or shots where the balls are close and you don't want to double hit the cb. Even some below center hits result in an upward finish with the cue, such as in breaking, but there you have to be careful not to come up on the shot too early, which is what I think you were trying to say.

Fran

dr_dave
10-10-2006, 07:29 AM
madMac,

You're starting to revert back to your weird Australian phonetic dialect again. /ccboard/images/graemlins/confused.gif Please try to stick to straight English. You were doing so well for a while. /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Regards,
Dave

<blockquote><font class="small">Quote cushioncrawler:</font><hr>If u play the qball up the table it will hit the exact spot that u aimed for on the cushion -- every time -- but the downside might be that the qball will uzually have some sidespin, sometimes left, sometimes right, or at least more of what u allwayz get when uzing a full grip anyhow. Duznt efren uze a loose grip!!!!! madMac. <hr /></blockquote>

trokinine
10-10-2006, 07:57 AM
I second that! I can read you madMac but I need to make more effort. Lack of punctuation makes also reading diffcult for the foreigner that I am.

wolfdancer
10-10-2006, 11:38 AM
Re: the elbow drop:
Try going to web page (http://www.fastlarrypool.com/home.htm)
Register for free for his Encyclopedia of Pool, and read what Mr. Guninger has to say regarding the elbow drop.
"Fast" may rub some folks the wrong way, but the best pool tip I've ever read on the 'net was by the iconoclastic, Fast Larry.

Qtec
10-10-2006, 07:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's tough to generalize like that. <font color="blue"> It certainly is and I am not very good at it! /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif </font color> A lot of players prefer letting the stick finish upwards when applying topspin with an elbow drop. <font color="blue"> Sure Fran but these are Players - experienced guys/gals who know what they are doing. This guy says he has 1 years playing experience.
Which brings me to this thread.
The original poster has very cleverly associated 'elbow drop' with 'dropping the elbow'- two completely different things! A subject we have had many times on this board! </font color> Power long shots for example, often result in the cue finishing upwards, or shots where the balls are close and you don't want to double hit the cb. Even some below center hits result in an upward finish with the cue, such as in breaking, but there you have to be careful not to come up on the shot too early, which is what I think you were trying to say.

Fran <hr /></blockquote>

What I was originally trying to say /ccboard/images/graemlins/crazy.gif was that if you are set up perfectly for a stun shot and the Qball runs thru 3 inches and the Q is pointing upwards at the end of the stroke, thats a pretty good indication of 'droping the elbow' /ccboard/images/graemlins/grin.gif before contact.
Qtec /ccboard/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

cushioncrawler
10-11-2006, 12:08 AM
<blockquote><font class="small">Quote dr_dave:</font><hr> ...You're starting to revert back to your weird Australian phonetic dialect again... <hr /></blockquote>
I wish that Teddy were here to back me up -- funny, it was 1906 when he tried to americanize English, and he was dragged thru the coals by Congress ("thru" was one of Teddy's words).

And, trokinine is correct -- foreigners have more trouble with any changes -- i am afraid that the evolution of english is the deadest that it has ever been -- and it is the non-english that will kill it off completely. Natural Evolution moves quickest on a small island -- and it appears that it is the same with English Evolution -- the bigger it gets, the slower it moves. madMac.